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Brahmcharia - Celibacy


Mr Sardar

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From my understanding sikhism propagates procreation within grist jeevan but according to hindu understanding as well as Buddhist understanding it some what understood that sexual activity weakens the body and somewhat the souls state; it is said before guru gobind singh went to sach khand he was brahmcharia- a celibate. Many propagate under hindu philisophy that great spirtual power is available by remaining celibate; is there such a notion in sikhism that even within marriage one should refrain from physical relations for some periods of time such that one does not seek a child; or would you say physical relations increase our spirituality? Other then that what disruptions can promiscuity and masturbation cause spiritually? Also is there any advice on how one would curb lust in the pursuit of celibacy in the west? The east is full of celibates is there some special conditioning of the mind one can do? I find in modern society open sexual behaviour has become very normal but apart from buddhism and hinduism giving showing negativities associated with that what kind of negativies of (illnesses/rogs/dukh/diseases) occur? 3HO teaches that sexual energy is creativity energy and it is such to use it to create art and many productive things instead of using it destructively. One may see it reducing the human lifespan drastically, perhaps causing impotency at early stages of life (sterility and loss of sexuality). Or can we assert that the nature of the west is to more sexually oriented where eastern philosophy is against it.

Edited by sarbatdapala
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Some Buddhists I've spoken to seem to think that having sex has no big moral ramifications attached to it, as is considered in other societies. I don't know they they have any basis in their religion for this though?

As for Hindu attitudes towards sex, be they what they are now, evidence of temples with carved erotic images, Kama sutra, Krishna's relationship with the gopis etc. indicate that there may have been a lot less conservatism about these things in the past than there is now?

Edited by dalsingh101
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the various hormones etc are material precursors for spiritual energy. using taoist terminology, this is called jing. jing transforms to chi (through bhagti). chi is like life energy. chi transforms to shen through bhagti. shen is light/emptiness.

these various transformations occur on the path to enlightenment. if you lose your jing, ie if you ejaculte, you lose a lot of the transformed or partially transformed energy. it's like taking a big step back on the path. it's this sex energy which is the basic power for enlightenment, so it either goes down and out, or up and transforms us.

so when jing is full, sex no longer bothers us, according to taoism.

gurmat advocates/prefers marriage b/c of the necessity of procreation and because in kaljug, most people simply cannot follow bhramacharya. this is why many sants are older, b/c in the younger jeevan they lived in grihast. in older age kaam doesn't have as strong a pull on a person.

to overcome kaam, you need ***exercise, fresh air, *****really careful attention to food***, abhyaas, repeated ardass, and meditation on guru ji's kurbani. remembering kurbani helps reign the mind in.

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So would you say we would need to be celibate to attain mukhti and if so are we really have to wait for old age when testerone levels fall and we done what we need in our reproductive lives. Would there be dangers in ejaculating everyday? In the west sex is considered something healthy and something which can help the body from the east our take is its something destructive. Under the theory of jing what would be the balance of grist jeevan; how much can we afford to loose. And is there dangers in masturbation prior to marriage, according to Islam it is very dangerous and sinful - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-dHgqldTEM

What is your take on that, in the coming generations the position of sexual activity has to become clear because we come out of a society where the mention of the word sex is taboo and for that there is barely any sexual education which is resulting in high levels of stds in India. I have heard the kama sutra was written as a purpose of teaching couples how to have sex because it was barely mentioned that the couples needed reference for such a thing; but later these manuscripts where destroyed only to be resurrected by the British. I have no clue of tantra and sex yoga, and from my understanding chitra pakhiyan teaches sikhs not to commit adultery and remain faithful to your wife with only her in your thoughts and bed. Theres a quote in bhai gurdas ji vaar saying that sikhs grist jeevan is celibacy; but are we expected only to attain mukhti after we stop having sex; what age do humans stop having sex- anyone know?

I was told once by someone from hindu philsophy that the 3rd eye can only be open once we are celibate; so we have no chance to open our dasam dwar without commiting in celibacy; or can we balance it out. What about Guru nanak he was divine from young age he did have grist jeevan are we to believe that in such a small period he lost his spiritual power or was he beyond and if so can we be beyond it ourself.

Do you think we can get away with sleeping around then, or are there consequences for bhagti?

Edited by sarbatdapala
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According to Dhan Dhan Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj , Guru Nanak Dev ji and all Gurus did not enter Grihast in order to procreate as normal humans do. The sakhi follows that Guru Nanak Dev Ji gave to two cloves to Mata Sulakhni Ji in the form of prashad...thus two sons.

Gurus are not bound as we humans are. And this viewpoint is shared by many Mahapurashs.

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the various hormones etc are material precursors for spiritual energy. using taoist terminology, this is called jing. jing transforms to chi (through bhagti). chi is like life energy. chi transforms to shen through bhagti. shen is light/emptiness.

these various transformations occur on the path to enlightenment. if you lose your jing, ie if you ejaculte, you lose a lot of the transformed or partially transformed energy. it's like taking a big step back on the path. it's this sex energy which is the basic power for enlightenment, so it either goes down and out, or up and transforms us.

so when jing is full, sex no longer bothers us, according to taoism.

gurmat advocates/prefers marriage b/c of the necessity of procreation and because in kaljug, most people simply cannot follow bhramacharya. this is why many sants are older, b/c in the younger jeevan they lived in grihast. in older age kaam doesn't have as strong a pull on a person.

to overcome kaam, you need ***exercise, fresh air, *****really careful attention to food***, abhyaas, repeated ardass, and meditation on guru ji's kurbani. remembering kurbani helps reign the mind in.

shaheedi jaap :)

care to elaborate on the attention to food?

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Do you think we can get away with sleeping around then, or are there consequences for bhagti?

You big slag! lol

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They say be careful from eating outside because the thoughts someone has gets cooked into the food so if someone in kaam and makes some chips and you eat them you have to deal with that then. Also junk food fires up hormones; eat green, eat fruit and veg and drink plenty of water. Bibek buddhi helps, eat healthy so not too much and not to little very moderate so the mind keeps to bhagati.

Guess it has alot of risks with bhagati if we are in kaam and we die we have to suffer for that even though the west is a central hub of kaam and given we are lucky to survive to old age it does not give much time for us to attain states of transfiguration and enlightenment.

With the sleeping around thing is, if its a matter of jing and emotional attachment; i.e. just do paath and we wipe off the paap; we can recover from that but there must be more side effects for poisoning and then curing ourselves spiritually and physically. I know it sounds mashup but there must be people in humanity with this approach.

I am aware that some nihang jathedars must be celibate and can not marry as well as some babas at rara sahib and possibly nanaksar. so a real sant must be celibate.

Edited by sarbatdapala
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If celibacy was essential for bhagti or becoming a sant, then it makes no sense that many of our Gurus were married. Futhermore they actual promoted grisht life.

If someone has a loving, healthy relationship with their wife, who is spiritual too, I don't think it is any obstacle to bhagti? No where does Sikhi seem to suggest that sex between married people is a negative in any way? Unless I have overlooked this, which is possible.

Edited by dalsingh101
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There is a difference between love and lust; so we could even act in lust with our partners, becoming sex maniacs, so question is what is would be the optimum physicality in such a relationship. All I am aware is marriage is for procreation so if we are not intending on bearing children would sex be sinful would the use of condoms or other forms of contraceptives be it natural or artifical be sinful or are we building up on tantric energy are we building together. And is masturbation wrong, medical science says that 90%+ (the percentage is about 50-60% for women but it depends on who admits it, which is more difficult for women) people do it both male and female they claim it allows the sexual organs to come into activity but even with that too much can be harmful in day to day activities, it builds self-esteem and other healthy aspects; with that aside to pornography there may be harmful mental,physical and social effects to it, if it slows down ones lust the behaviour of that individual would be different if not hyperactivity of that persons lust. Sex addiction of all forms must have serious consequences to ones entire spirituality (bhagti). But we could assert the notion that lusting for ones own partner is love for the divine we see god in our spouse and in such our lust maybe justified.

Edited by sarbatdapala
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There is nothing wrong with sex and bhagti. Having a nice long session in night would help you focus more in early morning bhagti. Also not having sex with your young wife would be like running away from duties. Nine of the Gurus were married, some with multiple wives. Surely there was lot of sex. If they thought sex is any obstacle, they wouldn't have married.

It is physical appetite and pleasure, just like other physical pleasures (eating tasty foods etc). Don't overindulge in these pleasures, but also don't waste your time and focus trying to suppress these urges.

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But we could assert the notion that lusting for ones own partner is love for the divine we see god in our spouse and in such our lust maybe justified.

It is plain dangerous to prescribe sex between married people.

The only rahit like material I personally have come across regarding the matter myself was in Prem Sumarag.

But if we look at Akal Ustat, it doesn't seem to characterise sexual activity as anything out of the ordinary or wrong.

I vaguely recall a statement attributed to dasmesh pita about cultivating increasing love with one spouse everyday, can anyone point us to the source of this (presumably in DG)?

I imagine bhagti achievements are not mutually exclusive to family life, which some people seem to be suggesting? I thought this distinction was one of the key differences between Sikhi and other Indic panths? It just doesn't make sense to heavily regulate behaviour in this manner. We already have a moral code and quite an austere personal discipline laid out but the faith that doesn't seem to necessitate this?

The option is there as demonstrated by Bhai Gurdas ji, but it is by no means mandatory.

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The thing about these mandates of rehats in faith is the time and place were different, so it does seem apparent people were not living in the same luxury as that did kings, we have come into luxury lifestyles where we are exposed to many beauties, attractive people- due to fashion industry, just as kings enjoyed mujras we now have television full of women dancing- Even Sikh kings became sex-aholics/maniacs with twifes concubines etc. so the reality of the situation is sexual misconduct is common as it was rarer before both because it was hidden due to taboo and now it is open in the media- so regulation may need to come into effect.

Bhagti is getting harder but the fruit of bhagti is worth more now in kaljug then before one jaap is worth so much more then it was before. As for the diseases and illnesses associated with it I personally believe sexual misconduct is one of the main causes for depression which is now on the increase, we are not able to live to our biological functions as well as people messing with mental attitudes of people by playing mental games with multiple sexual partners or classic dumping partners.

As for the hath rasi thing can you get some more details on that, I would imagine you would get a huge proportion of sikhs going for pesh- masturbation does occur in couples, with these days of domestic violence common in apni homes, not everyone to put crudely is "getting some", others would be reserved to solo pleasure as well other relationship issues for such. Can masturbation of thinking of ones own partner be acceptable?

Edited by sarbatdapala
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I really don't understand this need for people to complicate matters so much when it comes to a simple physical thing like sex.

If you are thinking about sex all the time, then get married so that your procreative instinct is satisfied. Have a normal sexual life and do your bhagti.

Similarly, if you have an itch that is ruining your concentration, scratch it and continue with your meditation.

Behangam lifestyle is for some people who have natural monastic tendencies and bhagti from former lives. It's probably easier to achieve mukti this way because you have access to that reservoir of sexual energy that can be transformed to prem (and because life is usually less complicated without the trouble and strife, as the Cockneys say). However, if you enter the behangam lifestyle before you have some degree of control over your desire (gained through bhagti), there is a possibility that you will end up as some sex-obsessed freak or a Catholic priest.

K.

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Kaljug do you think celibacy would be necessary even within marriage for mukhti? Say you die having sex, maybe a heart attack will you go to hell for being in kaam at the time of death?

Also hath rasi is a word hmm, its used in urdu I found it on this website http://www.forum.noorclinic.com/0/transliterate_in_roman_urdru_7512.htm

Khud Lazati (Masturbation) "Semen ka ekhraj ka 3rd aur aham zariya masturbation hai. essai hath rasi, jalq, dast kashi aur hand practice bhi kaha jata hai."

...

"The ahaadith (singular: hadith) (narrations about what our great Prophet Muhammad ``` ), make it even more clearer: Masturbation is completely haraam.

Abdullaah ibn Mas’ud said, "We were with the Prophet while we were young and had no wealth whatsoever. So Allah's Messenger said, "O young people! Whoever among you can marry, should marry, because it helps him lower his gaze and guard his modesty (i.e. his private parts from committing illegal sexual intercourse etc.), and whoever is not able to marry, should fast, as fasting diminishes his sexual power.""

I have always heard people use the word moot mar in punjabi but that probably came from tamils or maybe ancient sanskrit.

Edited by sarbatdapala
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Kaljug due you think celibacy would be necessary even within marriage for mukhti? Say you die having sex, maybe a heart attack will you go to hell for being in kaam at the time of death?

Why would the Gurus suggest marriage if they believed that only behangam saadhs get mukti? If we were all behangams, there would be no Sikhi after very long. The purpose of marriage is to satisfy your carnal desires without repressing them and to enlarge the Khalsa fauj.

If Akal Purakh despised sex so much, he would have just created us to reproduce asexually like flowers. I believe people who believe sex to be sinful have no love for the creation of Karta Purakh. Guru Ji has already told us that we go to hell if he commit adultery, not if we fulfil the duties of marriage.

As to your question about dying while having sex, you will likely end up reincarnated, unless you have the ability to practice rom rom simran even while you are having sex. However, you are just as likely to end up reincarnated whatever you do until your thoughts are directed towards God at all times.

Also hath rasi is a word hmm, its used in urdu I found it on this website http://www.forum.noorclinic.com/0/transliterate_in_roman_urdru_7512.htm

I have always heard people use the word moot mar in punjabi but that probably came from tamils or maybe ancient sanskrit.

Man, I must have led a sheltered life. I have never heard of any of these terms. LOL @ moot mar. Is that the Punjabi equivalent of the "knuckle shuffle"?

Regards,

K.

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Lol @ Catholic priest....

The phrase 'moot maar' is a very common Panjabi one. Well, at least with the pendus on the building sites I've worked on.

Edited by dalsingh101
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Kaljug do you think that ideally even having sex with ones spouse that both should be engaging in rom rom simran together at the same time, does not doing simran while sex effect the child to be borns spirtual state; would one get a bhagat of a child born during such. I am guessing with this there is a matter of opinon is there any more closer maryadas for sex, I remember seeing one which says a Sikh can not remove there kachera and must have kakkars on during sex and must wash after. Is sexual activity to be limited? I think dasamgranth does mention masturbation I can not remember exactly it maybe with the sanskrit word for semen which is bindu. Theres a yogi talking about bindu

he giving the purpose for kesh aswell related to it Edited by sarbatdapala
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Kaljug do you think that ideally even having sex with ones spouse that both should be engaging in rom rom simran together at the same time, does not doing simran while sex effect the child to be borns spirtual state; would one get a bhagat of a child born during such. I am guessing with this there is a matter of opinon is there any more closer maryadas for sex, I remember seeing one which says a Sikh can not remove there kachera and must have kakkars on during sex and must wash after. Is sexual activity to be limited?

If you look at the life history of various Sants, their parents were known to do immense bhagti, so I would say that your thoughts during the act of procreation (and what you do during pregnancy) will affect the avastha of your child. Ideally husband and wife should do bhagti together and do an ardas for a child with high avastha before they try to make a child. This bhagti should continue all the way through to the child being born, and the first sounds that a child should hear should be the sound of Gurbani.

Sexual activity within marriage is self-limiting. If you start to impose completely arbitrary limits on the number of times you have sex per month, then you are wasting time thinking of sex when you could be doing bhagti.

You should have your kakaars on you at all times. You should bathe after sex because it is hygienic, not because sex is bad and that water will magically cleanse you of sin.

As an aside, the reason that meat is proscribed for behangam sadhs is because it will increase testosterone (and it is why it is useful for a warrior):

http://www.fitnessforoneandall.com/nutrition/article/hormones/part_two.htm

K.

Edited by Kaljug
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For western perspective on Vital Life force from the semen read Napolean Hills book Think and Grow Rich. Very interesting stuff. You Should be able to find a PDF on the net. His stuff has been influenced by Dharmic philosophy via Theosophy during the begining of the 20th Century.

Sarbatdapala.

doing simaran rom rom is a natural occurance like breathing- once you get to that stage.

Your thoughts on concieving a child whilst having sex and in state of rom rom simran is very interesting.

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If you look at the life history of various Sants, their parents were known to do immense bhagti, so I would say that your thoughts during the act of procreation (and what you do during pregnancy) will affect the avastha of your child. Ideally husband and wife should do bhagti together and do an ardas for a child with high avastha before they try to make a child. This bhagti should continue all the way through to the child being born, and the first sounds that a child should hear should be the sound of Gurbani.

Sexual activity within marriage is self-limiting. If you start to impose completely arbitrary limits on the number of times you have sex per month, then you are wasting time thinking of sex when you could be doing bhagti.

You should have your kakaars on you at all times. You should bathe after sex because it is hygienic, not because sex is bad and that water will magically cleanse you of sin.

As an aside, the reason that meat is proscribed for behangam sadhs is because it will increase testosterone (and it is why it is useful for a warrior):

http://www.fitnessforoneandall.com/nutrition/article/hormones/part_two.htm

K.

d(>w<)b this.

I don't think it's a good idea to view sex through a moralistic lens. We are not catholic, our inherent nature is not that of being worthless sinners. Sex is not bad. It's better to view such things in terms of positive or negative effects, as well as the karmic effects. whether something is a punn or a paap may be different from what society thinks is moral or immoral.

masturbation is extremely unhealthy, doesn't have the energy exchange of sex. it also gives one bad karam and increases a person's overall kaam.

We can move forward spiritually even while having regular relations with our spouse. I know a singh who has has 3rd eye open and he presumably has regular relations b/c he's only in his 30's. So, it's not a bar on spiritual advancement, but there is less fuel available to go forward so it is slower than maintaining celibacy.

As for how often we can do it... I agree with Kaljug's comment that it is self limiting. I also recall Baba Nand Singh ji mentioning that once a week is a maximum as a guideline. Basically, try to limit that energy loss.

But also, take care of your partner's needs too, to completely ignore your partner is not compassionate. The following technique can help in limiting loss in a healthy manner. Fyi, i've never tried any of this, but it seems logical and many internet comments show support of its benefits.

http://www.reuniting.info/karezza_method_lloyd/what_is_karezza

http://www.sacred-texts.com/sex/krz/index.htm

http://www.luckymojo.com/tktechniques.html

I think it's healthier to look at dharmic rules/norms regarding sex as tight guidelines with some (limited) room for movement rather than as hard and fast black and white rules. Could be wrong on that point though.

btw, baba jagjit singh ji's katha on grihasti and bihangam marg is up on www.gurmatveechar.com. maybe someone could have a listen and let us know what he says.

Edited by Xylitol
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Nine of the Gurus were married, some with multiple wives. Surely there was lot of sex. If they thought sex is any obstacle, they wouldn't have married.

Please dont give examples of Gurus. They are Akal Purakh and away from the bondage of sex. Their leela is different than human beings.

Dont insult in future, please.

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