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Shraad Ceremony - Starts Tomorrow Sept 23Rd - Oct 7


jvalasingh

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This is practise is now common to be labelled as "Hindu" and "anti-Gurmat", but Baba Ji explains in his katha what Shraad for the Khalsa means, which is to serve langar to both our ancestors and to the needy.

I don't listen what Baba ji said about Sharad, but I listen what my Guru says. Langar is served to needy everyday, it does not have to be Shraad day.

Nothing reaches your ancestors, but only goes in mouth of Brahmin or Petu Gurudwara bhai. As Satguru says

ਇਕ ਲੋਕੀ ਹੋਰੁ ਛਮਿਛਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਵਟਿ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਖਾਇ The rice balls are offered to the gods and the dead ancestors, but it is the Brahmins who eat them!

Kabir Sahib made it more clear in Raag Gauri Bairagan,

ਜੀਵਤ ਪਿਤਰ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਕੋਊ ਮੂਏਂ ਸਿਰਾਧ ਕਰਾਹੀ He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.

ਪਿਤਰ ਭੀ ਬਪੁਰੇ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਉ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਕਊਆ ਕੂਕਰ ਖਾਹੀ Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? ||1||

End of Shabad

ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਡੋਲਹਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਾ You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਚੇਤਿਆ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਲਪਟਾਨਾ ੪੫Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways. ||4||1||45||

Yes, you shraad ceremony is a corrupt way or ਬਿਖਿਆ .

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Please do not comment before listening to the explanation by Baba Ji.

I don't listen what Baba ji said about Sharad, but I listen what my Guru says. Langar is served to needy everyday, it does not have to be Shraad day.

Nothing reaches your ancestors, but only goes in mouth of Brahmin or Petu Gurudwara bhai. As Satguru says

ਇਕ ਲੋਕੀ ਹੋਰੁ ਛਮਿਛਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਵਟਿ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਖਾਇ The rice balls are offered to the gods and the dead ancestors, but it is the Brahmins who eat them!

This is obviously speaking about the hypocrisy and pakhand that the Brahmins were doing.

Kabir Sahib made it more clear in Raag Gauri Bairagan,

ਜੀਵਤ ਪਿਤਰ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਕੋਊ ਮੂਏਂ ਸਿਰਾਧ ਕਰਾਹੀ He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.

This is obviously speaking about the hypocrisy and pakhand of people who do not really care for their family but rather just practise Shraad as a dekhavaah.

ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਡੋਲਹਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਾ You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

What does this have to do with Shraad?

ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਚੇਤਿਆ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਲਪਟਾਨਾ ੪੫Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways. ||4||1||45||

Kabir here isnt attacking Shraad but rather saying people have focused upon Shraad and have forgotten Rab.

I wonder, do you just search for 'Shraad' in sikhitothemax and copy and paste the lines without even reading them or the context they are written in?

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This is obviously speaking about the hypocrisy and pakhand that the Brahmins were doing.

It is not only Brahamins, people who are giving to Brahamin believing that their ancestors will get the food, are pakhandi and hypocrite too. You babaji in the audio is implying that ancestors will get the food. It is a lie. I am not saying it, gurbani says.

Kabir here isnt attacking Shraad but rather saying people have focused upon Shraad and have forgotten Rab.

Isn't Kabir Sahib calling Shraadh ਬਿਖਿਆ? READ.

I wonder, do you just search for 'Shraad' in sikhitothemax and copy and paste the lines without even reading them or the context they are written in?

Ain't that better? I added nothing from me.

BTW I knew what Gurbani says about this pakhand. It is for your reference. I did copy and paste. There is no need to type whole shabad.

Lot of people don't like this fact. Guru Granth is for everybody, not reserved for some class. You can't change it. You can't hide it. You can't do parchar of ਬਿਖਿਆ giving reference from some other granth. You will get caught.

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When someone dies it is best to do Paath for the loved ones who die. Feeding Brahmins or Babas will not benefit your loved ones. These are empty rituals created by Brahmins so their dukaan can make some profit over people's family tragedies. Only Paath/Simran we do can be beneficial to the departed and for those who are still living.

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You babaji in the audio is implying that ancestors will get the food. It is a lie. I am not saying it, gurbani says.

Show me if Gurbani says clearly against Shraad, it only speaks against the hypocrisy that people do with it.

Isn't Kabir Sahib calling Shraadh ਬਿਖਿਆ? READ.

No, rather the Bikhia was the hypocrisy of their practises, their pakhand.

If it was such a forbidden practise then why do various Rehatnama's from the 1700th century also mention that this practise is to be done?

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This whole Shraadh thing is based on premise that food reaches one's ancestors. I don't know if does or not. Let us see what Gurbani says. Here are the lines from Satguru Nanak and Bhagat Kabir.

ਇਕ ਲੋਕੀ ਹੋਰੁ ਛਮਿਛਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਵਟਿ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਖਾਇ ॥The rice balls are offered to the gods and the dead ancestors, but it is the Brahmins who eat them! - Satguru Nanak

ਪਿਤਰ ਭੀ ਬਪੁਰੇ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਉ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਕਊਆ ਕੂਕਰ ਖਾਹੀ ॥੧॥Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? - Bhagat Kabir

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This kind of koorh parchar that the website has about Shraad is nothing new, it was tried in the 1900s and it failed miserably and that is why Sikhs who are not even well versed in Sikhi find this Shraad thing weird and a hangover from Hinduism. Gurbani is very clear about Shraad but people who have an agenda will always try and bend it to suit their own beliefs. It seems to these people books like Nanak Parkash are more authorative than the Guru Granth Sahib!

I wonder, do you just search for 'Shraad' in sikhitothemax and copy and paste the lines without even reading them or the context they are written in?

This is what every Sikh should be able to do, go to the Guru rather than rely on people like the one whose katha you had. I am sure Laalsingh read the shabad otherwise why would he paste, he would have wanted to know whether the shabad agreed with his views or with yours. Laalsingh relied on the Guru and not some Baba who thinks that food that we are served at a certain time of the year goes to feed our ancestors. Tell me my friend, anyone living today probably have thousands of ancestors, does the food just go to a certain number or to all their ancestors?

It is stange that a Sikh would believe such koorh parchar about food reaching their ancestors. Ask any schoolkid who has read the Sakhi of Haridwar and he would be able to refute the leaned Baba.

Edited by tonyhp32
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What is wrong with offering respects to our ancestors, so that they may bless us and keep us happy?

It is well known that if a person upsets or causes pain to his mother, this pain caused has the effect of a curse on the causer.

And also blessings of family members can have a positive effect on the mind.

If you go to a Kings Darbar and ask for something good for yourself you have to pay appropriate respects.

Likewise if you want something good from someone you have to give them full respect.

(If you don't grease the wheels the cart won't go)

So offering respects to ancestors makes them happy, which in turn has a positive affect on us.

I do not see how this clashes with Gurbani.

We treat Gurbani with the utmost respect, because our Guru can give us the ultimate happiness.

This does not mean we do not respect our PArents or elders because it is only Gurbani we should respect and nothing else.

That is absurd.

Edited by Mekhane'ch Jannat
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"These are empty rituals created by Brahmins so their dukaan can make some profit over people's family tragedies."

No different to what Gurdwarai do today...

What is the conclusion to draw?

That human selfishness/corruption in all its facets is an overriding factor over all ideals/religion/ideologies?

The principle of atrophy seems to universally apply to all endeavours, so even noble God-sent systems are not immune from it and end up becoming tools for the manipulative and selfcentred. So everything needs periodical checks and balances, something itself that is not immune to this atrophy, which I define as a natural tendency for decay.

It seems like every system needs constant checking and regular realignment to combat this but then you usually end up with a whole self-righteous army that resist any attempts for change, who themselves act like they are the checking mechanism that is needed but are actually the disease.

Just seems like anything that involves groups of man coordinating will become corrupt, due man's nature. Am I becoming too jaded?

lol

Edited by dalsingh101
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Just to add. Seeing as Sikhs believe in reincarnation, what is the theory behind this practice if our ancestors are in some janwaar joon?

Do they still get the food? Or does the practice assume that they are in some pseudo-humanistic form?

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The way I see it:

My grandmother has Diabetes just (like most all apnay). To celebrate some success recently I bought some Miteai from the local shop. Due to her condition she did not eat it. However she was still very appreciative that I put the thought into buying it for her. Like the old saying goes "Its the thought that counts".

Whether your morsel of food reaches your forefathers or not is besides the point. The main crux is that you had the intention and put in the effort to honour your ancestors. Their souls will feed off that goodwill and thoughtfulness more than the roti and mung dhal you give them.

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The way I see it:

My grandmother has Diabetes just (like most all apnay). To celebrate some success recently I bought some Miteai from the local shop. Due to her condition she did not eat it. However she was still very appreciative that I put the thought into buying it for her. Like the old saying goes "Its the thought that counts".

Whether your morsel of food reaches your forefathers or not is besides the point. The main crux is that you had the intention and put in the effort to honour your ancestors. Their souls will feed off that goodwill and thoughtfulness more than the roti and mung dhal you give them.

I don't know if I can explain this but if we believe in our faith the situation is likely to be that our ancestors are actually around right now too. Maybe in one of the posited 84 million lifeforms of this planet or another place or dimension. They are having their own independent existence with their personal relationship with Waheguru at whatever stages they are in, unless some lucky ones have merged back to the source.

Something doesn't seem quite right about the notion of us having some sort of link with them as implied with the practice? If we are told that our links with our families here are not permanent and that we leave to progress on our journey after life on our own, how does that square with the implied permanent connection with other joons that have temporarily taken form as our ristadars - both present and past (as our ancestors)? I know it is not a pleasant thought for some that some of our close family relationships are only temporary, but that is what Sikhi seems to teach (unless I have got it wrong, which is more than possible).

Anyway, shraad just seems like plain old folk practice to me?

Edited by dalsingh101
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Amardeep, the soul moves the body. Although the body and soul are opposed, they are not totally seperate.

The idea of spirit being uninvolved and totally seperate from matter is known as Cartesian dualism.

This idea has given the green light for scientists to investigate matter without considering soul or consciousness

Desires move the soul which moves the body.

Pure desires lead to good and impure desires to bad.

As everything is connected with everything else, to varying degrees, the prior desires or sanskaars of your ancestors affect your desires.

A saintly family will create saintly offspring etc. etc.

If you cheat an ancestor out of money and he resents it, after he pops off, he may hang around you wishing you bad, impelling you to impure desires.

Since the feeling of resentment is a material thing of a subtle materiality, which affects mind.

This feeling of resentment could be dispersed by 'saying sorry' by making offerings, peace offerings as it were.

The view of ancestry as a physical phenomenom is typical aristotelian logic viewing things from the bottom up.

Platonists view things from top down so the mind is the first cause, not physical matter.

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My grandmother has Diabetes just (like most all apnay). To celebrate some success recently I bought some Miteai from the local shop. Due to her condition she did not eat it. However she was still very appreciative that I put the thought into buying it for her. Like the old saying goes "Its the thought that counts".

Maybe you never thought about it enough when you got her something that is detrimental for her health...??

Ha ha!!

I'm sort of half messing with you.

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Shraad and Jathera are part and parcel of a primative belief system that believes that the dead ancestors can cause bad luck or can become malevolent towards their living descendents. It is not a JB wrote to do with blessings or goodwill from the action of making the offerings. If the dead can cause suffering for the living thab do the dead not have a power possiblt apart from God. If according to the Hardwar sakhi the offering of water cannot reach the dead ancestors then how does the offering of food get there?

Just for Jvaalasingh here is some advice from Bhagat Kabirji

ਘਰ ਕੇ ਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਰ ਕੀ ਛੋਡੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਲਇਓ ॥

I have renounced the gods and ancestors of my house, for the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

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How it works according to Baba Ji is that when most people die they go to certain lok's [world's], i forget which one, but there are various ones Kam/Tsingh/N3o probably know them off by heart. But in certain lok's there is a need for food, and doing shraad once a year sustains them for the year, and they then give blessings towards the one doing the shraad. Just like many sakhis of the Gurus talk about how when any Sikh recites 'Vahiguru' before putting any food in their mouth, that food goes into the Guru's mouth, and thus sustains the Guru [ref the sakhi of Guru Amar Das Ji when Sangat asked Guru Ji to partake in Langar]. Like Baba Ji said, if food can reach the Guru, then why not our ancestors?

As the katha in Nanak Prakash described, Baba Kalu Ji's parents and grandparents were in Baikunt, where there is no need of 'bhukh pyaas' [hunger or thirst], so there was no need to do it. However this is not the case for everyone as Baba Ji described.

Even if it doesnt reach your ancestry then at least you are doing pun daan [charity] for the needy or gursikhs in langar.

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There seems to a lot of reliance on Sakhis rather than on Gurbani. When Gurbani states something so clearly then why place any worth on Sakhis which goes against this?

Ok so let's look at this rationally. So if my ancestors are in this place of which you do not know the name and I don't conduct a Shraad which you claim they need once a year for their 'sustenance' then do they DIE?

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Just for Jvaalasingh here is some advice from Bhagat Kabirji

ਘਰ ਕੇ ਦੇਵ ਪਿਤਰ ਕੀ ਛੋਡੀ ਗੁਰ ਕੋ ਸਬਦੁ ਲਇਓ ॥

I have renounced the gods and ancestors of my house, for the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

So do you think that this pangati is telling us to forsake and abandon respectful conduct towards our family members?

The pangati is part of the shabad where Kabir Ji responds to his mother who is telling Kabir to basically leave Bhagati of Ram Parmesvhar. The first two pauris are Kabir Ji's mother and the last lines are Kabir Ji responding to His mother showing his loyalty to his Bhagati over the family business etc.

Edited by jvalasingh
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