Shraad Ceremony - Starts Tomorrow Sept 23Rd - Oct 7

[amardeep]

So how do you interpret the sakhi of Hardwar?

[dalsingh101]

PrIdw ikQY qYfy mwipAw ijn@I qU jixEih ]

fareedhaa kithhai thaiddae maapiaa jinhee thoo janiouhi ||

Fareed, where are your mother and father, who gave birth to you?

qY pwshu Eie lid gey qUM AjY n pqIxoih ]73]

thai paasahu oue ladh geae thoo(n) ajai n patheenohi ||73||

They have left you, but even so, you are not convinced that you shall also have to go. ||73||

I don't know Jvala, this seems to be exactly the type of beham Guru Nanak spoke against.

Plus can people let me know what baikunt is? I heard it in a katha by Sant Isher also.

[Mithar]

Sakhis are authoritative, but they do have limits. Sakhis from the various JanamSakhis, SurajPrakash, Bhatvahis etc are to be considered a part of Guru History, but only those Sakhis are considered authentic that do not contradict Gurmat as contained in Sikh canonical writing which are:

-Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

-Writings of Guru Gobind Singh Jee

-Bhai Gurdas Jee's Vaaraan and Kabit

-writings of Bhai Nand Lal Ji

Any Sakhi that contradicts Gurmat as contained in the above canonical Sikh scriptures is not authentic.

Ancestors are linked to this temporary physical body. We have had many parents, siblings, ancestors with each body we have been reincarnated. If ancestors are in some place where they need "sustenance", wouldn't the Paath, Simran and Kirtan we do for them be more beneficial? How can food(which is physical) reach them at a place which is non physical? Only something spiritual we do can be of any benefit to them and that is Paath/Simran/Kirtan which is why it is a Sikh tradition to do Paath beside a person during his/her last moments.

[drawrof]

Hi,

I believe in Shraad....except that I practice it semi-regularly. I go to the gurdwara and eat langar, especially kheer. I figure that I was dead at some point, or I might be soon....so why not eat alot more now....and let's say the fat bhai with the darkish complexion and fuzzy beard was my daughter in a previous life...that guru sahib was 'dyal' enough to let us both be re-born into a gursikh household and we can balance out the karma....but I'm a paapi, because I lack faith and have an extra helping of kheer (just in case I'm hungry), but then I justify it by thinking that I am doing sraad seva by making it less tough for those people for whom I'll be an ancestor, and if the kheer is extra good....I have even more and think, 'my ancestors really wanted me to eat well, so I'll eat it myself and make them happy'.

[dalsingh101]

^^^

ਭੁੱਖੜ!

Edited September 24, 2010 by dalsingh101

[Xylitol]

i recall reading from Atam Marg magazine that if we conduct ourselves well in life, our ancestors would help us. I don't remember who said it, perhaps Sant Waryam Singh ji. But there certainly are a lot of unknown/invisible influences on a Sikh's life other than the Guru. The energies of our environment, shaheed singhs, devtay, the kirpa of mahapurkhs... all these things have an effect on us. I'm not saying I believe or disbelieve in Shraadh, just that there are things out there that we don't know about.

[chatanga1]

What is wrong with offering respects to our ancestors, so that they may bless us and keep us happy?

If you go to a Kings Darbar and ask for something good for yourself you have to pay appropriate respects.

what can your ancestors do for you when they are dead? nothing.

and the King would have to be alive wouldnt he? Who would offer respects to a deceased King for belessings and happiness.

I took part in a shraad in our family, and it was just so riduculous, and my mom was loving it, thinking that it was real and stuff. MENTAL!

We dont know where our ancestors have gone to, we only know that they will NOT return to this world in the same body that they left.

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

Chatanga, if our ancestors will return in other bodies, then they must be somewhere waiting to be reborn.

If a person does intensive jaap in a location, when someone else sits in this location he will feel the effects of the jaap. This proves that the atmosphere created by intense mental activity lingers longer in the air than lets say a smell of perfume. In a like way an Ardaas directed at someone depending on the mental power or intensity behind it sends force to the object of the Ardas. As mental power is not restricted by physical bodies, why would it not be possible for an ancestor who may have had certain intense mental tendencies to affect embodied beings, mentally?

If someone upsets his Mum he can apologise to her or do something for her to get rid of the bad feeling. But if a Mother died and was upset with her son then depending on how badly she was upset she would affect the mental state of her Son for the worse, as the Mother is no longer living it is only during prescribed times like during Shraadh that dead ancestors can be receptive to the pleas of the living.

If different planes of existence or Khands are taken into consideration, dead ancestors would be part of Giaan Khand. Which is the plane of manifested thought, which permeates the physical world.

[amardeep]

Mekhane:

So what do you make of the sakhi of hardwar?

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

Amardeep is that the Sakhi in which Babaji chastises the pandits when they offer Ganga Jal to their ancestors?

My position is that all teachers come to Earth to renew spiritual truths and not to establish anything new. In this sakhi Babaji shows the hypocrisy of pandits who do not know why they perform certain ceremonies and ritual. The actual rituals are not under scrutiny, but the intention behind them. When the understanding behind any ritual becomes forgotten it becomes a mechanical - unconscious - action. It is my idea that individuals who have had direct perception of the truth of reality instituted these rituals, from times primordial, for the benefit of mankind. If a person studies when certain holy days fall in various religions they will find that they occur at similar times and the newer religions just renamed and modified the older pagan traditions. For example the equinoxes and solstices are marked by festivals in nearly every culture that has been on Earth. This is because astrological combinations influence groups of people and individuals on earth, and if people use these influences by putting themselves in certain emotional and mental states during festival days then these influences can be transformed into results good for them.

But the 'priest' class take over these rituals and use them to extract money from normal people. These so called priests cause people to become disillusioned with what our forefathers through hard unselfish work have created to benefit us. And as these rituals which are built on certain universal truths, become covered with so much falseness and maya, that teachers like Baba Nanak have to ridicule these rituals because they are being followed blindly and without any awareness. And therefore any benefit from doing them becomes lost and useless.

Our generation is like one grain of sand on a beach, the innumerable generations that have gone before us created structures of thought to benefit the future generations. It is our job to renew and to clean up these structures not to demolish them. If it took so many thousands of years to build up certain civilizations and ways of life, if we reject this gift from the past, in our future we will sink into abject barbarism and become savages.

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Just some thoughts from bookish knowledge.

As per Brahmsutra, either a person is reborn or salavged. Salvaged here means united with God. In that case no need of Shradh. It reborn with body/stul sarir/spirit of Ghost/Pret again Shradh may or may not reach and so is the case of rebirth in the form of living creature. But there are some spirits which go into Pitra Loka(realm of Ancestors), they may need Shradh. This is based upon so called Hindu point of view. In past Sikhs use to have some festival related to Shradh as per perhaps book of Sohan Singh Sital related to evolving of Sikh nation. IT is a form of Shamman practise where spirits of ancestors are worshiped as Kheras(best place in town) for Jathera(Ancestors) in sythian tribes residing in India like Ahir,Jaat, Gujar or Rajputs. While Aryans perform Shradh.

Das thinks that devotee Kabir Ji are talking about some thing deeper then opposing the ritual.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਜੀਵਤ ਪਿਤਰ ਨ ਮਾਨੈ ਕੋਊ ਮੂਏਂ ਸਿਰਾਧ ਕਰਾਹੀ ॥

जीवत पितर न मानै कोऊ मूएं सिराध कराही ॥

Jīvaṯ piṯar na mānai ko▫ū mū▫eʼn sirāḏẖ karāhī.

He does not honor his ancestors while they are alive, but he holds feasts in their honor after they have died.

ਪਿਤਰ ਭੀ ਬਪੁਰੇ ਕਹੁ ਕਿਉ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਕਊਆ ਕੂਕਰ ਖਾਹੀ ॥੧॥

पितर भी बपुरे कहु किउ पावहि कऊआ कूकर खाही ॥१॥

Piṯar bẖī bapure kaho ki▫o pāvahi ka▫ū▫ā kūkar kẖāhī. ||1||

Tell me, how can his poor ancestors receive what the crows and the dogs have eaten up? ||1||

ਮੋ ਕਉ ਕੁਸਲੁ ਬਤਾਵਹੁ ਕੋਈ ॥

मो कउ कुसलु बतावहु कोई ॥

Mo ka▫o kusal baṯāvhu ko▫ī.

If only someone would tell me what real happiness is!

ਕੁਸਲੁ ਕੁਸਲੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਜਗੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਕੁਸਲੁ ਭੀ ਕੈਸੇ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

कुसलु कुसलु करते जगु बिनसै कुसलु भी कैसे होई ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Kusal kusal karṯe jag binsai kusal bẖī kaise ho▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Speaking of happiness and joy, the world is perishing. How can happiness be found? ||1||Pause||

ਮਾਟੀ ਕੇ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਆਗੈ ਜੀਉ ਦੇਹੀ ॥

माटी के करि देवी देवा तिसु आगै जीउ देही ॥

Mātī ke kar ḏevī ḏevā ṯis āgai jī▫o ḏehī.

Making gods and goddesses out of clay, people sacrifice living beings to them.

ਐਸੇ ਪਿਤਰ ਤੁਮਾਰੇ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਆਪਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਨ ਲੇਹੀ ॥੨॥

ऐसे पितर तुमारे कहीअहि आपन कहिआ न लेही ॥२॥

Aise piṯar ṯumāre kahī▫ahi āpan kahi▫ā na lehī. ||2||

Such are your dead ancestors, who cannot ask for what they want. ||2||

ਸਰਜੀਉ ਕਾਟਹਿ ਨਿਰਜੀਉ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲ ਕਉ ਭਾਰੀ ॥

सरजीउ काटहि निरजीउ पूजहि अंत काल कउ भारी ॥

Sarjī▫o kātėh nirjī▫o pūjėh anṯ kāl ka▫o bẖārī.

You murder living beings and worship lifeless things; at your very last moment, you shall suffer in terrible pain.

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਗਤਿ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨੀ ਭੈ ਡੂਬੇ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ॥੩॥

राम नाम की गति नही जानी भै डूबे संसारी ॥३॥

Rām nām kī gaṯ nahī jānī bẖai dūbe sansārī. ||3||

You do not know the value of the Lord's Name; you shall drown in the terrifying world-ocean. ||3||

ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵਾ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਡੋਲਹਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਨਾ ॥

देवी देवा पूजहि डोलहि पारब्रहमु नही जाना ॥

Ḏevī ḏevā pūjėh dolėh pārbarahm nahī jānā.

You worship gods and goddesses, but you do not know the Supreme Lord God.

ਕਹਤ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਕੁਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਚੇਤਿਆ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਸਿਉ ਲਪਟਾਨਾ ॥੪॥੧॥੪੫॥

कहत कबीर अकुलु नही चेतिआ बिखिआ सिउ लपटाना ॥४॥१॥४५॥

Kahaṯ Kabīr akul nahī cẖeṯi▫ā bikẖi▫ā si▫o laptānā. ||4||1||45||

Says Kabeer, you have not remembered the Lord who has no ancestors; you are clinging to your corrupt ways. ||4||1||45||

Term Bapura also means Ghost as per second meaning by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, so it means that ancestors in form of Ghost do not get food, which is offered to crow and dog(other shares are to sun, fire and cow).

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥

आसा महला १ ॥

Āsā mėhlā 1.

Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਦੀਵਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਏਕੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਤੇਲੁ ॥

दीवा मेरा एकु नामु दुखु विचि पाइआ तेलु ॥

Ḏīvā merā ek nām ḏukẖ vicẖ pā▫i▫ā ṯel.

The One Name is my lamp; I have put the oil of suffering into it.

ਉਨਿ ਚਾਨਣਿ ਓਹੁ ਸੋਖਿਆ ਚੂਕਾ ਜਮ ਸਿਉ ਮੇਲੁ ॥੧॥

उनि चानणि ओहु सोखिआ चूका जम सिउ मेलु ॥१॥

Un cẖānaṇ oh sokẖi▫ā cẖūkā jam si▫o mel. ||1||

Its flame has dried up this oil, and I have escaped my meeting with the Messenger of Death. ||1||

ਲੋਕਾ ਮਤ ਕੋ ਫਕੜਿ ਪਾਇ ॥

लोका मत को फकड़ि पाइ ॥

Lokā maṯ ko fakaṛ pā▫e.

O people, do not make fun of me.

ਲਖ ਮੜਿਆ ਕਰਿ ਏਕਠੇ ਏਕ ਰਤੀ ਲੇ ਭਾਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

लख मड़िआ करि एकठे एक रती ले भाहि ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Lakẖ maṛi▫ā kar ekṯẖe ek raṯī le bẖāhi. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Thousands of wooden logs, piled up together, need only a tiny flame to burn. ||1||Pause||

ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪਤਲਿ ਮੇਰੀ ਕੇਸਉ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥

पिंडु पतलि मेरी केसउ किरिआ सचु नामु करतारु ॥

Pind paṯal merī kesa▫o kiri▫ā sacẖ nām karṯār.

The Lord is my festive dish, of rice balls on leafy plates; the True Name of the Creator Lord is my funeral ceremony.

ਐਥੈ ਓਥੈ ਆਗੈ ਪਾਛੈ ਏਹੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਆਧਾਰੁ ॥੨॥

ऐथै ओथै आगै पाछै एहु मेरा आधारु ॥२॥

Aithai othai āgai pācẖẖai ehu merā āḏẖār. ||2||

Here and hereafter, in the past and in the future, this is my support. ||2||

ਗੰਗ ਬਨਾਰਸਿ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ਨਾਵੈ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਉ ॥

गंग बनारसि सिफति तुमारी नावै आतम राउ ॥

Gang banāras sifaṯ ṯumārī nāvai āṯam rā▫o.

The Lord's Praise is my River Ganges and my city of Benares; my soul takes its sacred cleansing bath there.

ਸਚਾ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਤਾਂ ਥੀਐ ਜਾਂ ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਭਾਉ ॥੩॥

सचा नावणु तां थीऐ जां अहिनिसि लागै भाउ ॥३॥

Sacẖā nāvaṇ ṯāʼn thī▫ai jāʼn ahinis lāgai bẖā▫o. ||3||

That becomes my true cleansing bath, if night and day, I enshrine love for You. ||3||

ਇਕ ਲੋਕੀ ਹੋਰੁ ਛਮਿਛਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਵਟਿ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਖਾਇ ॥

इक लोकी होरु छमिछरी ब्राहमणु वटि पिंडु खाइ ॥

Ik lokī hor cẖẖamicẖẖarī barāhmaṇ vat pind kẖā▫e.

The rice balls are offered to the gods and the dead ancestors, but it is the Brahmins who eat them!

ਨਾਨਕ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਕਾ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਿਖੂਟਸਿ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੪॥੨॥੩੨॥

नानक पिंडु बखसीस का कबहूं निखूटसि नाहि ॥४॥२॥३२॥

Nānak pind bakẖsīs kā kabahūʼn nikẖūtas nāhi. ||4||2||32||

O Nanak, the rice balls of the Lord are a gift which is never exhausted. ||4||2||32||

Over here Guru tells us a state of union with God while being alive also does not go for Pitr Loka etc. For that person God's name does all the rituals to be done otherwise.

Das could be wrong but understanding Gurbani by translation and giving lines without correct context for proving some "idealogy" could be detrimental for spritual mind.

What matters is will of God and rituals can not occur without that. God is free to approve or disapprove them. God is not bounded by Hinduism or Sikhism or Islam or Christinity but free of them.

[chatanga1]

My position is that all teachers come to Earth to renew spiritual truths and not to establish anything new.

ok, that makes it cleare where your thinking comes from. I dont believe that at all, and that is kinda what the rss types beleive as well. Why did Guru's give new places of worship ?

why HariMandir Sahib, why not just go and renew the truh at Hardwar and get all the Sikhs to do their matha there?

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

There was a Gurdwara at Har Ki Pauri called Gyan Godari, Sikhs have lost its control since 1984. VHP is trying to restore it to Sikhs if this month edition of Sangat Sansar(magazine of Rashtriya Sikh Sangat ) is to be belived. Gobind Ghat at Pushkar is not in Sikh controls as yet. But in both the cases places should be given to Nirmalas

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

why HariMandir Sahib, why not just go and renew the truh at Hardwar and get all the Sikhs to do their matha there?

Because the Sikh Panth is seperate from others.

What I meant to say is that the core truths of all religions are universal. A great Saint may use these formless truths and embody them in a form (in our case as SHABAD). This is because older forms of the expression of truth have become stale and need to be changed according to law. The casing of form remains (rituals etc) but the essence which is truth has left the form. So in effect there is nothing new in the world, from a higher perspective of eternal truths, but from a world perspective (which is not lesser) things change and new religions and institutions are created with different forms. Forms are manifested ideas, forms are vehicles that can change according to how people think. As we are Men and not Angels this form is equally important as the essence, but without the essence the form becomes a corpse as a human body without Jeev principle is dead. Many Hindu practices and rituals are corpses. So it is important to recognise Sikh Panth as distinct but also to remember the fundamental essential unity from where the Sikh Panth is ultimately vivified from. And which Essence is the Source of all true teachings.

[chatanga1]

Many Hindu practices and rituals are corpses.

i would include Shraad in this corpse as well. but how does one pick and choose which practice and ritual is dead?

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

Whatever has meaning for a person and is done with good intentions is not a bad thing.

Even a corpse was once living and they have been known to rise from the dead

And at least a corpse does no harm to anyone

Modern western rituals like Xmas and going to pub/club rituals suck blood from people

TV and media rituals like reading tabloid press and watching MTV are harmful to peoples' minds

So leave Shraad ritual alone it is alright.