Gatka And Shastar Vidiya

[jvalasingh]

http://www.manglacharan.com/2010/10/two-forms-of-vidiya-gatka-and.html

[Mithar]

Haha, what a joke. You are purposefully twisting the words of Brahmgiani Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwalay to make Niddar's SV look legitimate and Gatka as illegitimate. No where does Sant Jee mention the word "Gatka" or "SV" as you so conveniently mentioned it in brackets of your English translations. This type of agenda based misinterpretations/translations is outright dishonesty on your part. Up until today, your translations have usually been very good, but this misinterpretation casts a serious doubt on you. And what do you have against the Taksalis of Toraonto whose picture you have posted?

[jvalasingh]

How would you define, Pate Baaz? And what comparison is Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale trying to make then?

[Mithar]

How would you define, Pate Baaz? And what comparison is Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale trying to make then?

Pate Baaj means flashy showmanship that a lot of apne do do to entertain people on stage or outside. What the meaning of second vidya of soormas that Sant Jee mentions does not mean or imply Niddar's martial art called SV formerly known as "chatka gatka". It simply means that Sant Jee is saying that a lot of people do showmanship but not everyone will actually fight like soormas in an actual battle. No where does it imply Niddar's SV. The second category of soormas can also include Soormas who have knowledge of modern firearms and use it to fight in a modern warfare where a Tulwar/Laathi would be rendered useless.

Also why you targeting the DDT Singhs of Toronto in this? the vidya that they practice is what all the Nihangs in India practice including some of the Nihangs whose pictures you have posted on your site.

[jvalasingh]

ਪਟੇਬਾਜ literally means to swing a gatka stick, if you look it up in Mahan Kosh it will describe it as:

ਪਟਹ ਚਲਾਉਣ ਵਾਲਾ. ਸੈਫ ਅਰ ਗਤਕਾ ਫੇਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ. ਪਟੈਤ. ਪਟਹ ਦਾ ਖਿਲਾਰੀ. "ਪਢਨ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਰ ਦੋਇ ਕੋ ਜਾਨਹੁ। ਪਟੇਬਾਜ ਇਕ ਸੂਰ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਹੁ". (ਨਾਪ੍ਰ) ਸੂਰਮਾ ਕਰਨੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਟੇਬਾਜ਼ ਕੇਵਲ ਖੇਡ ਦਿਖਾਂਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ.

After reading the above definition it is hard not to equate Gatka with the term Patebaaz. Even Gatkabaji's will acknowledge that gatka is a game/sport and not a real martial art designed to kill [which should be the real aim for a real warrior].

What the meaning of second vidya of soormas that Sant Jee mentions does not mean or imply Niddar's martial art called SV formerly known as "chatka gatka".

Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale clearly states that for the second type of vidiya there is no show/performance, there simply the notion of kill or be killed.

Now you assume that has no relevance to the Baba Darbara Singh Akhara headed by Gurdev Niddar Singh in UK, and that is fine. Other's who know the art might connect the dots if they are aware of the vidiya and have seen the ferocity, highly complex, killing martial art. However, there is no mention of Gurdev Niddar Singh on my post, and for you to assume that I am talking about it shows your insecurity. The fact that you bring up Gurdev Niddar Singh shows you already have some sort of prejudice against the Baba Darbara Singh Akhara.

Also why you targeting the DDT Singhs of Toronto in this? the vidya that they practice is what all the Nihangs in India practice including some of the Nihangs whose pictures you have posted on your site.

I am not targeting anyone, in fact I know the Singhs in that picture as well. If they had a problem about it they can contact me personally, but they have not, so why do you have a problem with it?

[chatanga1]

Mithar writes : "It simply means that Sant Jee is saying that a lot of people do showmanship but not everyone will actually fight like soormas in an actual battle..."

this is the gist that i got from reading it. Basically that (like me) there are a lot of flash gits around, but when it comes to actually being in a confrontation, they run.

Im not sure Sant Ji is actually talking about gatka here.

[Mithar]

Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale clearly states that for the second type of vidiya there is no show/performance, there simply the notion of kill or be killed.

Now you assume that has no relevance to the Baba Darbara Singh Akhara headed by Gurdev Niddar Singh in UK, and that is fine. Other's who know the art might connect the dots if they are aware of the vidiya and have seen the ferocity, highly complex, killing martial art. However, there is no mention of Gurdev Niddar Singh on my post, and for you to assume that I am talking about it shows your insecurity. The fact that you bring up Gurdev Niddar Singh shows you already have some sort of prejudice against the Baba Darbara Singh Akhara.

You can connect the dots any way you like, because if you have a pre-conceived mindset about an issue you will see dots where there are non. If you think that your Guru Dev's (niddar's) fairy tails then that is up to you, as I am convinced that I cannot change the thinking of people who believe in Niddar's fairy tails. For those who don't know or haven't read Gurmat books in Punjabi, and are only used to reading in English then you can convince them any way you like, but those who are adapt in reading in and are very familiar Punjabi Gurmat literature, your translation of Sant Jee's (straight forward easy to read Punjabi) passage sounds more like a misinterpretation.

Please do you not see my disagreement on this issue as a grudge against you. Up until this particular translation I have seen that your other translations were actually quite good. But this particular one seems to me at least a misinterpretation and agenda based.

[jvalasingh]

For those who don't know or haven't read Gurmat books in Punjabi, and are only used to reading in English then you can convince them any way you like, but those who are adapt in reading in and are very familiar Punjabi Gurmat literature, your translation of Sant Jee's (straight forward easy to read Punjabi) passage sounds more like a misinterpretation.

I always seek to ensure the translations on the site are as literal as possible, to ensure there is no bias in the translation. For this my site has been praised by many people, with little to no complaints. However, you seem to imply that there is a translation error, which is fine, everyone makes mistakes, especially me.

Please do show me line by line where there are mistakes in the translation.

[Guest zulu]

If you think that your Guru Dev's (niddar's) fairy tails then that is up to you, as I am convinced that I cannot change the thinking of people who believe in Niddar's fairy tails.

Care to explain how it is a fairy tail?

[Mithar]

Care to explain how it is a fairy tail?

Go on his site and see for your self the so called "history" (fairy tail) of his martial arts.

[Guest zulu]

Go on his site and see for your self the so called "history" (fairy tail) of his martial arts.

lol.

[dalsingh101]

Sorry brothers I have to jump in:

'Fairy tail' is wrong.

Tail = ਪੂਛ as in what animals have protruding from their butts

Tale = ਕਹਾਣੀ as in sakhi or story

So it is 'fairy tale'.

Just so you know.....

Forgive the intrusion. You can now resume.

[Mithar]

lol.

hmm, I get the feeling that no matter what I would have written, you would have replied with a simple "lol" as that is usually what people write when they have nothing to say.

[jvalasingh]

hmm, I get the feeling that no matter what I would have written, you would have replied with a simple "lol" as that is usually what people write when they have nothing to say.

Mithar, you still have yet to show me where my translation is incorrect or shows bias.

[Mithar]

Mithar, you still have yet to show me where my translation is incorrect or shows bias.

The incorrect part is where you have tried to show that Sant Jee is trying to differenciate between Gatka and Niddar's martial arts which he calls SV.

[jvalasingh]

The incorrect part is where you have tried to show that Sant Jee is trying to differenciate between Gatka and Niddar's martial arts which he calls SV.

First of all, you said I have made a mistake in the translation, please show me where there is a translation mistake.

Patebaaz here obviously refers to gatka, if you do not accept that then you are truely blind to what gatka is, and how they perform it. The gatkabaaj in the photo I posted on that article himself said to me, "Gatka is not a martial art, but rather just a way to get kids into Sikhi".

Now I have not even mentioned Gurdev Niddar Singh in the article, why do you bring him up? Everyone knows the real 'vidiya' is called Shastar Vidiya, read old historical granths, i.e. Suraj Prakash etc. Are you bringing him up simply because Gurdev Niddar Singh is the only openly teaching Shastar Vidiya teacher in the world right now? And since you disagree with Gurdev Niddar Singh then you disagree with the puratan Shastar Vidiya, which the Guru's themselves taught to the Singhs?

[Mithar]

Now I have not even mentioned Gurdev Niddar Singh in the article, why do you bring him up? Everyone knows the real 'vidiya' is called Shastar Vidiya, read old historical granths, i.e. Suraj Prakash etc. Are you bringing him up simply because Gurdev Niddar Singh is the only openly teaching Shastar Vidiya teacher in the world right now? And since you disagree with Gurdev Niddar Singh then you disagree with the puratan Shastar Vidiya, which the Guru's themselves taught to the Singhs?

It's no secret that before your Guru Dev Niddar named his martial arts as SV, he used to call it as Chatka Gatka. Later he changed it into SV, and it is easy to fool gullible western kids into thinking that is a genuine name who are not familiar with this term and what it means in India. Shastar Vidya simply means knowledge of weapons and it can collectively refer to any system that uses weapons. It doesn't mean a particular system of martial arts called Niddar's secret SV as he claims, this term has never meant that until he claimed it to be. The term "Shastar Vidya" as used traditionally in India can also imply any system of knowledge of weapons, even Kung Fu can be referred to as Shastar Vidya or even military training into modern weaponry can be collectively referred to as Shastar Vidya i.e. knowledge of weapons.

[Guest zulu]

hmm, I get the feeling that no matter what I would have written, you would have replied with a simple "lol" as that is usually what people write when they have nothing to say.

Take a look at my interests.....

[jvalasingh]

It's no secret that before your Guru Dev Niddar named his martial arts as SV, he used to call it as Chatka Gatka. Later he changed it into SV, and it is easy to fool gullible western kids into thinking that is a genuine name who are not familiar with this term and what it means in India. Shastar Vidya simply means knowledge of weapons and it can collectively refer to any system that uses weapons. It doesn't mean a particular system of martial arts called Niddar's secret SV as he claims, this term has never meant that until he claimed it to be. The term "Shastar Vidya" as used traditionally in India can also imply any system of knowledge of weapons, even Kung Fu can be referred to as Shastar Vidya or even military training into modern weaponry can be collectively referred to as Shastar Vidya i.e. knowledge of weapons.

This conversation isn't going anyway because you still haven't shown me where my translation is incorrect, rather you avoid it and bring up Gurdev Niddar Singh, which was not even mentioned in the article.

Once again I will clarify for you, Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale brings up two forms of vidiya, first is Patebaaz, which we can infer to mean Gatka by looking at the definition and what Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale says, and the second is the real vidiya he says which is just to kill, which we would infer to mean the real vidiya taught by Guru Gobind Singh Ji and other countless Singh's, which in historical granths has been mentioned as Shastar Vidiya or Ayudh Vidiya.

The history of the Baba Darbara Singh Akhara isn't in question here, and if you do wish to question it please make a visit to the Akhara and I'm sure Gurdev Niddar Singh will be happy to discuss the history there.

If you want to carry this on, please go through my article again and show me where there is a translation error.

[Mithar]

This conversation isn't going anyway because you still haven't shown me where my translation is incorrect, rather you avoid it and bring up Gurdev Niddar Singh, which was not even mentioned in the article.

Once again I will clarify for you, Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale brings up two forms of vidiya, first is Patebaaz, which we can infer to mean Gatka by looking at the definition and what Baba Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale says, and the second is the real vidiya he says which is just to kill, which we would infer to mean the real vidiya taught by Guru Gobind Singh Ji and other countless Singh's, which in historical granths has been mentioned as Shastar Vidiya or Ayudh Vidiya.

The history of the Baba Darbara Singh Akhara isn't in question here, and if you do wish to question it please make a visit to the Akhara and I'm sure Gurdev Niddar Singh will be happy to discuss the history there.

If you want to carry this on, please go through my article again and show me where there is a translation error.

Sant Jee mentions the name ਸੂਰਮਿਆਂ ਦੀ ਵਿੱਦਿਆ. In context to what Sant Jee is saying it is clear he is referring to those brave Singh Soormas who are not just after Dikhawa (exhibitionists) but those soormas who have the will to fight in battle in other words those who can walk the walk. This is clearly in reference to a soorma who fights in battle and not to a particular form martial arts of Niddar's.

I am perfectly aware of the history of Niddar's martial arts as is stated on his site. I do not believe in his fairy tail story of his martial arts which I believe to be his invention. The term "Shastar Vidya" as those who are from India understand it means any and all martial arts that uses a Shastar and not to a particular systematic form of secretive martial arts. Even military training and the knowledge to use modern weapons can be classified as "Shastar Vidya". This is a common Hindi term used through out the Hindi speaking regions of India.

I don't know which Singhs you talk to, but in India Nihangs who train in Gatka will dispute your claim that this art cannot kill. Not too long ago in my Nanke's pind (located in Amritsar) a Nihang Singh from that village who knew Gakta decapitated his cousin during a fight.

Edited October 20, 2010 by Mithar

[Guest zulu]

I don't know which Singhs you talk to, but in India Nihangs who train in Gatka will dispute your claim that this art cannot kill. Not too long ago in my Nanke's pind (located in Amritsar) a Nihang Singh from that village who knew Gakta decapitated his cousin during a fight.

A gatka fight and the weapon wasnt blunt what is the world coming tooooooooooo

[Maha Singh]

The term "Shastar Vidya" as those who are from India understand it means any and all martial arts that uses a Shastar and not to a particular systematic form of secretive martial arts. Even military training and the knowledge to use modern weapons can be classified as "Shastar Vidya". This is a common Hindi term used through out the Hindi speaking regions of India

Just as how all Dharams which originate from India are termed Hindu right? (Refer to Mahan Kosh)

The issue about the name change which you rant about every time a discussion on Shastarvidiya appears has been explained on a number of occaisions to you, but you still go on about it. If you refer to the SV website, you will see the number of names which the fighting arts were called, but the most common one is Shastarvidiya. The term Jhatka Gatka was coined by Baba Gyana Singh in the bola which states "Gatka is that which has Jhatka, using one strike recognise that as Jhatka, any other forms recognise as false, flavourless and unripe"

If what Niddar Singh teaches in terms of technique is incorrect and made up, then are you stating that what we have within Gatka Akharas is the unadulterated combat arts of the Gurus? Your story about a Nihang decapitating someone is all fine and dandy, but to kill an untrained person with a sword is not a hard thing to do, many Hindus killed Sikhs in the 1984 riots and I doubt they were trained in Gatka.

In the past you have claimed that Niddar Singh has copied other arts and made up SV, my request to you was to find videos which show the same principles and strategies,which mirror the same Vidiya which he teaches, including skirmish fighting, formation fighting and breaking, you convieniently didnt reply.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Maha Singh