Pehalwani - Traditional Art Of Wrestling In Punjab

[Maha Singh]

Website: http://www.pahelwani.com

Group: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Pahelwani-The-Traditional-Art-of-Wrestling-in-Punjab/159115517455331

Video regarding the decline of Pehalwani:

[kdsingh80]

Yet despite being tradition one can hardly see punjabi pehalwan representing India.Most of the wrestlers that win medals are from Haryana or delhi

[dalsingh101]

You can tell they are apnay from the tid of the bloke on the left....

Edited October 28, 2010 by dalsingh101

[Parchand]

^ LoL

[shaheediyan]

Thanks for sharing that bro, excellent website. Gamma has always been one of my personal heroes :-)

Today pehvani in Punjab is all about modern body building and posing. In other areas of India like Benares and even in Pakistan, many traditional schools still operate today - this is mainly due to poverty and lack of modernisation/westernisation.

The old school diet and exercise regimes cannot be beaten in my opinion.

The 2 basic traditions I would personally advocate for a child would be wrestling and wushu (Shaolin) - as an excellent foundation/grounding in developing a good combat body/mindset. Real combat should be introduced later.

[dalsingh101]

Are Speedos mandatory?

[shaheediyan]

Just watched the doc properly - excellent job by Nav.

The sentiments shared by the Babai are exactly in accord with those I have heard from many elders back in the day re the respect and love all had for each other pre-partition - as opposed to the hate/toleration that ignorant people insist existed.

[chatanga1]

The sentiments shared by the Babai are exactly in accord with those I have heard from many elders back in the day re the respect and love all had for each other pre-partition - as opposed to the hate/toleration that ignorant people insist existed.

I remember my Vidya Guru telling me about the time a Muslim pehlwaan who's name i cant remember led a mob to burn down Baba Deep Singh Gurdwara in Amritsar, but was killed in the attempt to do so. I will try and find out his name.

There may have been love between some Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus, but only a fool would try and say there was no hate.

Edited November 11, 2010 by chatanga1

[shaheediyan]

Of course there was hate - hate is what differentiates lower men from higher men - both have always existed - only the wallpaper changes. Same is true today. Killing innocent people on yourside of the border because some fanatics killed your people on the other side is a perfect example of an Evil act. It was committed by all parties. All parties were also driven into a frenzy by select evil individuals, these individuals existed n all sides. I have been unfortunate enough to have known someone who still brags about the fact his Grandad rounded up all the men in his village and massacred all Musle in the neighbouring village (irrelevant of age/sex etc). The shame is that no one on either side is willing to admit their own people are capable of such evil - always blame the other and downplay the revenge. Old story.

Chatanga - for your one unsubstantiated example of an evil pehlvaan I am sure there are one hundred of pehlvaans that committed good acts during 47 - as is even spoken about in the video.

Anyways, back to the thread.

[dalsingh101]

I have to add. When there is a lot at stake. When people have a real opportunity to gain for themselves materially. Then you will see man's basic nature unleashed. That was what partition was about. Some clever Muslims had created the situation of an opportunity to grasp their own sovereignty. That motivated some of them to do the evil THEY started. Our people just responded with their own evil. The latter only emerged as a consequence of the former. Let's not forget that.

Every action will have some reaction. I for one understand why some of our people decided not to take things lying down.

Edited November 11, 2010 by dalsingh101

[chatanga1]

All parties were also driven into a frenzy by select evil individuals, these individuals existed n all sides.

No these individuals did not exist on all sides. They existed in the Muslim side and were created in the Sikh side. Even after the massacre of Sikhs in Hazara, and then Rawalpindi, no Sikhs started any action against muslims, it was only in aug the Sikhs took revenge.

The muslims were driven into a frenzy by muslims, and the sikhs were driven into a frenzy by muslims.

And actually, i have spoken to sikhs who have admitted to killing muslims, but again this was because of what was happening across the border.

I would not say that those sikhs were wrong, because i dont know what i would have done in the same situation. But i kinda get a feeling of what you would have done shaheediyan ji.

[shaheediyan]

If you think 2 wrongs make a right, and killing of innocent elders, women and children is somehow understandable and justified, then our understanding of Gurmat is very different. In all this frenzy there were Heroes who put their lives on the line to rescue parmatmas other children as well as those who fought like real men i.e the enemy, not innocent Muslims. What will justify next, rape? Or let me guess, that didn't occur on our side. Sikhs and Muslims who commited attrocities against innocents were both as bad as each other and in my opinion are both rotting in hell. The who started nonsense was just a bahana of parmatma to test the compassion of his children, and as I said, I am glad to be priviledged to have met some of those few diamonds who passed that test.

And Chatanga, don't make the mistake of confusing my logic which I try to base on Gurmat, with a passive nature. I am not interested in justifying animalistic acts, but rather observing and understanding those that can rise above them.

[dalsingh101]

You know what Shaheediyan. Given a hypothetical similar situation today with apnay, you'd probably get the same reaction.

All societies can become reactionary and savage with the right buttons pushed. You are right that two wrongs don't make a right but playing down the actions of the instigating side isn't right either. A fair portion, if not the majority of blame has to go there.

Overall, what conclusions can we draw? That the Sikh panth is human like others and prone to the same negativity that besets mankind. I guess we have to stop kidding ourselves that as a corporate community we are some sort of higher level beings, because I tell you what, we aren't. Our people are capable of savagery as good as the rest of them, and in some cases even worse. At the same time most of us have lots of stories of compassion and mercy in our families during partition. I just heard another one the other day.

Yes, we have our own inbred savagery as seen in intercaste interactions today, no one can deny this (apart from the usual denialists or caste apologists) and no one can blame outsiders for this. Our societal attitudes towards jananeean (back home) can be horrendous as seen with foeticide. That being said, we can't ignore the fact that certain other communities do frequently bring out the worst in us through their own provocations. When you brutalise people, or purposefully antagonise them, you can quickly push them into acts of savagery. You imply we should know better from our faith. Then you need to acknowledge that the deeper faith doesn't really impact into the core of the majority lay members of the quom. It's the rare ones who are like that.

I've grown up around sullay from across the border, their open gloating over what some of their family members have done to Sikhs during partition is something I experienced on MANY occasions starting from an age you'd probably be quite surprised at. That isn't to say I haven't met some who were formally from our side of the border who were very hurt at the experience even a few generations later.

I tell you, in all of this you've got some seriously guilty English and sullay bastards who WERE the causal factors. That is what led to apnay acting like animals. I could never stand by the actions of a rapist. But lets be frank, it isn't like we haven't got a few of those moustache twisting types amongst us.

Your point about God testing us is a valid and important one, but we could also equally turn around and say God turned us into an destructive, avenging force under the circumstances too. Similar to how Banda Singh reputedly summarised his own and our forefathers actions according to contemporary Persian sources.

Ultimately, what we should be doing is saying to ourselves, "never again will we be put into this position" and organising ourselves as a society to ensure this. But that is just wishful thinking on my part.

Face up to it. The world can easily and quickly descend into consummate barbarity around us. Look at how Germans went on with Jews. I mean they were white and comparatively educated! If they can do that with all their knowledge, sophistication, modernity etc. etc. what do expect from a community largely made up of semi-literate villagers? In a twisted way, I still can't fail to think our actions were relatively reserved given some of our historical relationships.

Edited November 11, 2010 by dalsingh101

[shaheediyan]

I have no issues with believing that every single human on Earth has the potential for pure evil and pure devotion.

Nor do I have any problem believing that most of us are living with a false sense of security, thinking that we are in a civilised country. Any nice country can turn savage in the blink of an eye - with the right circumstances. Which is why Singhs should be tyar bar tyar, and not simply keyboard warriors.

Your example of Banda Bahadur is not comporable in my opinion - as HE took revenge on the perpetrators (and witnesses to the crime.. argueably) directly - and not on random Muslims in other states.

A better example would be that of the chhotai Sahibzadey and the offer made to Sher Mohammad Khan of Malerkotla to take revenge on the chhotai Babai for the killing of his brother by their Father.

His response speaks for it self, as opposed to that of people who justify revenge on innocents.

[dalsingh101]

How do you marry your admirable idealism with the real nit, grit and grime of this world Shaheediyan?

All we can hope is that we make it to the other bank without too many stains on our soul. We are lucky to even recognise this as an objective, that too sometimes very late in our lives. The fact is that only a few live outside of the illusion (maya).

How do we conceptualise all that we see around us? Especially that which is heartbreaking and painful? In the end it is all in His hukam. If our scripture is anything to go by, we will never understand it, at least in this form.

PS - You do know that some sullay ladies committed suicide in the face of Banda's invading armies to preserve their 'honour'?

Edited November 11, 2010 by dalsingh101

[shaheediyan]

"How do you marry your admirable idealism with the real nit, grit and grime of this world Shaheediyan?"

The purpose of our existence is to rise above the animal state. This is why Parmatma blessed us with Gurbani.

If our target is always low, our aim will be low, and sadly, our nishana will be low.

It's not for us to change or even worry about changing the world, only our own minds.

Edited November 11, 2010 by shaheediyan

[dalsingh101]

I would never be a rapist. I would like to think that I would never kill an innocent child or anyone vulnerable.

But that being said. Knowing my own people (and yes I consciously call them my own people - apnay - with all of their many flaws), I know if the shite ever hit the fan and we (God forbid) were put in similar positions to that our distant and no so distant forefathers experienced, some of my own brothers in faith are likely to act in ways I find horrendous. Hell they already do frequently.

I've spoken to elders in my family. Many of them have been through this situation. At best, a few of the really strong ones were able to prevent excesses, many could do nothing but look on helplessly, and yes, some joined in. I have a strong feeling that this is likely to be the pattern in any similar experiences in future.

It isn't out of place to point out that it helps to keep and eye on ideologies that bring about such scenarios. And I hope you don't take it offensively, but I think you are weak in recognising these due to your idealism. You frequently fail to see how certain interpretations of systems like Islam and 'Englishness' or 'Britishness' lead to these scenarios. Being blind to this only increases the possibility of reoccurence in my opinion. For all our people's flaws, following Sikhi has never led to anyone engaging in brutally suppressing and dominating others. This isn't true of other ways of life out there. Even some that have become embedded within our own society.

Edited November 11, 2010 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

It's not for us to change or even worry about changing the world, only our own minds.

I find it hard to agree with this. From what I understand of Dasmesh Pita, much of what he did here was actually planning and preparing for the Khalsa to change the worldly environment around them to create security for the panth in dangerous times. This isn't to underplay the centrality of the spiritual or bhagti side of the way of life he outlined.

Edited November 11, 2010 by dalsingh101

[shaheediyan]

Yes, change the world environment through Gurmat, not Manmat.

In order to achieve a state of Gurmat - one must pratice introspection - do simran, abhyaas on Gurbani.

The problem today (in all faiths) is that we have do-gooders, experts and parchaareks who have no Gurmat.

Any action without God in mind is wasted/useless action.

When one purifies ones mind - his actions are in accordance with God-thought - and his seva (changing the world) becomes obvious -in fact at this point, it is God himself changing the world and not a self concious individual.

[dalsingh101]

Those kinds of people you talk of are extremely rare. Even Gurbani says so. So we are essentially stuck with masses of people who aren't on a high spiritual level whenever we have to do ANY thing like that.

[shaheediyan]

Exactly right.

Which is why I don't give 2 hoots about gaining the popularity vote on this forum and banging on about evil Islam. On this forum people bang on about being PC, PC changes according to the platform, it is not stagnant. On this platform it is PC to insult Islam. Dasmesh Pita makes his views clear in Akaal Ustat.

It is Parmatma that is going o judge my opinions, not people here.

This is why I said Shere Mohammed Khans example is so great - he didn't give a hoot about what the Political or Religious authority said in that court - he acted in accordance to his correct understanding of Islam i.e. not killing maasoum. He asked for bal from Allah to give him the opportunity to fight Dasmesh Pita in mardyana jung in order to settle his score. For this I bow my head to him and for this very reason - his single honorable voice, ensured his family remained untouched in Sirhind.

Those rare gems exist everywhere, in every faith, not just in ours. For us, it is recognise and be inspired by them, rather than follow the blind/animal instinct controlled majority and justify it.

Guru has asked us to become anmol (in thought and action). If we don't set our standards high, then we have no hope of ever attaining them, life becomes a total waste of time (as Gurbani tells us again and again).

This is why the Khalsa was unique when it came to plunder - it never layed a finger on the izzat of the dushmans istriyan - because the Khalsas rehit was once upon a time pyaari to the Khalsa.

[dalsingh101]

I don't know. I'm not blindly against Islam or all Muslims, that doesn't mean I have to like all that comes from that source. Or that I am an Islamophobe because I dislike certain supremacist strains of Islam.

I do believe some belief systems are the fountains of some evil actions out there. That isn't to say that everyone from that persuasion will follow that path but when enough people do for a sustained period, it isn't surprising that people's feelings change.

There is also a big problem with the truth that with modern mass media tools, it is easy for agencies such as governmental ones, to create impressions of this for obvious motives.

Although much of what you say in your last post resonates with me, still I feel you go just that bit too far in failing to recognise organised evil and bad intention from specific quarters. It's understandable, but projecting your own noble or good nature onto a world that so patently isn't that way inclined...... that is a dangerous game to play, as many of our brothers and sisters found out at partition or 1984 Delhi.

I guess the key question is: Is the world ever going to be any other way to what it generally has been like for what appears to be eternity?

Plus corporately as Sikhs we can only really effect the wider environments for the better if we have grace, strength and intelligence. And that is where we seem to differ in our views significantly, you seem to see Sikh more on an individualistic basis in terms of personal development, I believe that a key objective of the faith is to also uplift the community corporately as well as effect the environment positively by attacking those that have been described using terms such as dushts, daints etc.

Somewhere along the line, we blunted our swords to the extent that we can barely do this now. I have a good idea of when this fall began, and I'm sure you wont like the truth.

[shaheediyan]

I feel this subject is close to being talked to death – so will make some final points and exit:

The uplift of the community is not the objective, but the outcome of individual simran – Sant Singh Maskeen eloquently explained to me many years ago when my blood was a little warmer and I was trying to put the world to right... “focus on yourself and light your candle, the light will automatically shine on those around you”.

Of course we should seek justice – that is a Singhs right/duty – but there is a difference between justice and blind revenge.

As I said, don’t mistake me for being passive or blind to peoples evil intentions (from mine, Islamic or any other community) – if anything I am more sensitive – I just don’t feel the need to stereotype or curse a whole community for the actions of the minority. As much as I promote the spirit of Shaant – I also promote (and meditate on) the spirit of Chandi – this was the element that was (during the periods you mention) and is, missing from Singhs today – all talk and living off ancestors reputations – and having no capability for fighting/controlled destruction ourselves (Chandi). When Chandi sleeps inside – one can take a much more relaxed view of the world and dangers, and even focus on simran with less worries .

Baba Deep Singh is the ideal example of someone who was able to invoke Chandi (pure destruction) at the right time (and towards the right target) but remained absorbed in Vahegurus kamal charan otherwise. One needs to however feed Chandi in order to maintain her – this is done through dedicated daily physical effort and meditation on combat.

Shukraan.

[shaheediyan]

PS, none of what I say is personally directed towards you - I don't know you from Adam. I talk in general terms only :-)

[dalsingh101]

Okay, that's some pretty solid points you've made. I wouldn't really disagree with pretty much most of it.

We should, though, be careful of projecting our own specific individual perspective and/or experience more wider than it applies. And that goes for me as much as you.

Right now, here, we may be pretty secure and relaxed in our current environment. You can bet this will be VERY different for other Singhs/Singhnis out there all over the globe - say in parts of Australia or the US right now for example. Heck, even in a single country the need for physical retaliation against aggressors will vary dramatically from place to place, like say between Southall and East London in the 80s/90s. This is very important understanding I believe.

But I think we are both on the same page regarding indiscriminate, blind killings of the vulnerable not being the Sikh way. We differ, I think, with regard to my believing that when the proverbial hits the fans, in the turmoil of anger, frustration etc. etc. some people will inevitably do this. In really intense situations like partition, such thinking and actions will spread like wildfire. The best protection is intelligent, visionary circumspect leadership to prevent such circs even occurring (as much as we can).

As much as we may theoretically lift ourselves, individually and corporately, above these base instincts, we have to factor in that we can't rest on any reassurances that other communities will strive for the same. But yes, God resides in all pure hearts, I guess it becomes most apparent in the aftermath of hellish periods, when we hear of the contrasting nobility of some people. But we still need our hawks brother.

Edited November 12, 2010 by dalsingh101