Very Interesting Critique Of Sgpc Rehat Maryada By Taksaal

[JasperS]

11 hours ago, Crystal said:

We are only to blame for carrying blunt kirpans and not knowing how to defend yourself. 

On that note, are there any good places to acquire a kirpan which is actually sharp / designed to be used practically? The only ones I know of which are genuinely sharpened and balanced are the ones by a 3HO member Jot Singh Khalsa, and they seem to have mixed reviews. The blades in order to be properly balanced and sharp were made with steel instead of sarbloh and that is a point of contention among many of those who have seen them in person. (sorry to be off topic but saw the opportunity to ask). 

[tva prasad]

2 hours ago, JasperS said:

And how would knowing how to use a kirpan save anyone in a country like the USA where 80% of the population carry a gun? 

guru g is the best of all. They know everything, they thought about it all. A gun can get jammed, u can run out of bullets but a sword cannot get jammed, etc. Guru g has blessed us with such great things. It is now our responsibility to keep our kirpan ( gifted to us by our father) sharpened. There has been alot of blood spilt (more than we can imagine) so that we can put a kanga in our kes and wear a turban and kachhera and of course the kirpan.

in the olden times people used to carry more than one weapon. If I remember it correctly- kirpan (they used to wear a big one as a kakkar the smaller version came after the British), spear and bandook at least!

[JasperS]

27 minutes ago, tva prasad said:

guru g is the best of all. They know everything, they thought about it all. A gun can get jammed, u can run out of bullets but a sword cannot get jammed, etc. Guru g has blessed us with such great things. It is now our responsibility to keep our kirpan ( gifted to us by our father) sharpened. There has been alot of blood spilt (more than we can imagine) so that we can put a kanga in our kes and wear a turban and kachhera and of course the kirpan.

in the olden times people used to carry more than one weapon. If I remember it correctly- kirpan (they used to wear a big one as a kakkar the smaller version came after the British), spear and bandook at least!

Except, it's not really practical (or legal) to carry round a 3 foot sri sahib! But I agree that kirpans should be sharpened. I was just pointing out that often times, you won't get close enough to someone. You can't count count on a gun misfiring. More often it will fire properly. Not so much an issue here in UK but in america is a huge issue since everyone carry guns. 

[Crystal]

7 hours ago, tva prasad said:

guru g is the best of all. They know everything, they thought about it all. A gun can get jammed, u can run out of bullets but a sword cannot get jammed, etc. Guru g has blessed us with such great things. It is now our responsibility to keep our kirpan ( gifted to us by our father) sharpened. There has been alot of blood spilt (more than we can imagine) so that we can put a kanga in our kes and wear a turban and kachhera and of course the kirpan.

in the olden times people used to carry more than one weapon. If I remember it correctly- kirpan (they used to wear a big one as a kakkar the smaller version came after the British), spear and bandook at least!

Yes, however I am not forsaking guns..guru gobind Singh told singhs to use guns also along with blades..In the UK they are not accessible. Singhs of old were ace with muskets and small arms  read up on how they are described fighting against mughals and afghans. 

Every weapon has it advantages and disadvantages. Yes Singhs of old carried five weapons minimum...they can vary, tegha , katar, pistol, bow and arrow, dagger, spear, lance, shamshir, sirohi, kora, tulwar, tabar war hammers...many weapons.

 

Well there are rehitnameh saying to wear a "kard" on you at all times.

http://mandarinmansion.com/indian-kard-dagger-wootz-blade

 

[Crystal]

8 hours ago, JasperS said:

On that note, are there any good places to acquire a kirpan which is actually sharp / designed to be used practically? The only ones I know of which are genuinely sharpened and balanced are the ones by a 3HO member Jot Singh Khalsa, and they seem to have mixed reviews. The blades in order to be properly balanced and sharp were made with steel instead of sarbloh and that is a point of contention among many of those who have seen them in person. (sorry to be off topic but saw the opportunity to ask). 

I would personally say save your money and invest in an antique dagger, pesh kabz, choora, kard daggers. you can find them at auction houses antique  arms dealers and on the internet. do be warned though of counterfeit and replica ones. 

To be honest, does sarbloh translate to iron? someone please give a defintion of sarbloh in context to weapons. 

 

Iron does not hold a good cutting edge, iron gilts were used on khandas and other swords.

[tva prasad]

Just now, JasperS said:

Except, it's not really practical (or legal) to carry round a 3 foot sri sahib! But I agree that kirpans should be sharpened. I was just pointing out that often times, you won't get close enough to someone. You can't count count on a gun misfiring. More often it will fire properly. Not so much an issue here in UK but in america is a huge issue since everyone carry guns. 

yeah well if I lived in usa I would buy a gun bro n keep on me whenever I go out of my house. I wud have other weapons in my house as well. It is good to learn archery too : ).

[chatanga1]

20 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

"some of these people were scholars". 

Actually, they were all scholars. Regardless of one's opinion towards their beliefs and assertions. And I would say they're Gyanis as well. 

what's the definition of a 'Gyani' according to you?

Could you clarify this "British praxis" and lense you speak of? How would you say they applied it? And How do you define it? 

 

Also, the ground you speak of, How are we to determine it's necessary and needed? How are we to conclude this is what the Gurus meant? Or if this "wider scope" is accurate and well grounded? What's the veracity of this ground work?  

 

I'll scan the Granth and post it along with Malwe Desh Rattan's excerpts within this month. 

 

in regards to Arifi's claims, I don't recall him making such claims. Do you know where he made that assertion? 

 

 

No academic is inerrant. People are bound to form conjectures and claims that can be poorly substantiated. Unless it's frequent, we shouldn't cast doubt upon all of their work. I have no doubt that Arifi was biased, but he wasn't dubious. 

Secondly, Your fear of Arifi shouldn't cloud your judgement of Sri Gur Katha. As he wasn't the only one who came across it or studied it in the first place. Five academics so far have studied the manuscript(s) and have written about it. 

 

Avtar Singh vahiria wasn't a scholar as far as I know. He was an out and out sanantist. But as to call them Gyanis ? I wouldn't go that far. Scholars are not about getting knowledge but dissecting it. A "Gyani" to me is one who has Gyan. The British lense that Sikh scholars began to look through was one of rationale, science and historicity.  They applied either/all of these to Guru Granth Sahib/janamsakhis.

 

Look forward to having a look at this Granth.

I never said that that my fear of Arifi would/will cloud my judgment of Sri Gur Katha. I said, and I'll reiterate, scna some pages and we can look at them.

 

[paapiman]

On 9/26/2016 at 2:23 PM, Kuttabanda2 said:

Their leaders would probably force Taksal Maryada over the entire Panth. A Maryada that does not have enough research to substantiate it. 

It is a fact that coercion was used during the Akali Lehar to change/modify certain aspects of Sikhism.

On the other hand, look at the bighearted and broad minded nature of Baba Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale. Giving vidhya daan to Naamdharis and also not forcing Sikh Rehat on them.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

On 17/11/2016 at 6:07 PM, paapiman said:

It is a fact that coercion was used during the Akali Lehar to change/modify certain aspects of Sikhism.

Yes, and their research to substantiate this was so poor. I read a book from the SGPC where they have tried to explain the cutting down of banis read in Rehras. It is so sad to see their pathetic reasoning to stop Chaupai sahib after verse 25. When I read this I thought to myself what kind of knowledge did these people have.

[amardeep]

48 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

Yes, and their research to substantiate this was so poor. I read a book from the SGPC where they have tried to explain the cutting down of banis read in Rehras. It is so sad to see their pathetic reasoning to stop Chaupai sahib after verse 25. When I read this I thought to myself what kind of knowledge did these people have.

What was their reasoning?

[chatanga1]

The verse 26 says "kirpa kari hum par jag mata" was a reference to some Devi. Then by cutting that it wasn't possible to include the following verses.

[BhagatSingh]

On one hand that banis in Rehras that are not from Guru Granth Sahib, do not match Guru Granth Sahib in terms of religion. On the other hand their reasoning for removing them because it has to do with devi devte is poor. They are largely ignorant on the subject of devi devte, as are most people.

[chatanga1]

44 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

On one hand that banis in Rehras that are not from Guru Granth Sahib, do not match Guru Granth Sahib in terms of religion.

 

They do match in parts in terms of devotion.

[samurai]

46 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

On one hand that banis in Rehras that are not from Guru Granth Sahib, do not match Guru Granth Sahib in terms of religion. On the other hand their reasoning for removing them because it has to do with devi devte is poor. They are largely ignorant on the subject of devi devte, as are most people.

so im sure you are gonna tell us, please enlighten us as the mediator of vishnu..

im sure "you" jasbir do not go to a dentist and say, "please check my teeth akaal purkh, or in your words vishnu"  but you must say i trust you "dentist"..then why say dentist?

the karam is on jag mata.. therefore you get blessings of jag mata, you questions peoples understanding of devte..i question your understanding of nirankar..."its all one" seriously mate..do better then that.. 

 

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

They do match in parts in terms of devotion.

It is all devotion. That's why people initially can't tell which religion is what because they don't have knowledge or experience of it. They just see it has to do with devotion, or they might accept every devi devte under a banner without understanding these are different religions.

Then there are these guys, who find out its talking about devi devte. But then they reject everything, either by cutting it out as these guys are or by whitewashing it as metaphor and denying that it has any connection to Puranic religions. So they know these stories, etc have some deeper meanings but they reject the container of those deeper meanings, as "hindu" and distance themselves from it.

Above all of this, is finding out the reality of devi devte, the deeper meanings, then experiencing this reality and seeing how various religions intermingled to produce this outcome, seeing how it all comes together. To be fully aware, detached and to know a lot from a state of not knowing (It's weird). From this place you can decide whether to keep those parts or cut them out based on your understanding and the circumstance of the time, etc.

[Bal Rehal]

On 16/11/2016 at 9:34 PM, samurai said:

i thought the panj pyare administer the amrit..? 

Thanks for correction. 

 

[Kuttabanda2]

On 11/17/2016 at 7:51 AM, chatanga1 said:

 

Avtar Singh vahiria wasn't a scholar as far as I know. He was an out and out sanantist. But as to call them Gyanis ? I wouldn't go that far. Scholars are not about getting knowledge but dissecting it. A "Gyani" to me is one who has Gyan. The British lense that Sikh scholars began to look through was one of rationale, science and historicity.  They applied either/all of these to Guru Granth Sahib/janamsakhis.

 

Look forward to having a look at this Granth.

I never said that that my fear of Arifi would/will cloud my judgment of Sri Gur Katha. I said, and I'll reiterate, scna some pages and we can look at them.

 

My bad. I confused him to be the Jathedar of Rawalpindi/Thoha Khalsa Singh Sabha. 

Yeah, i'd call them Gyanis. They had Gyan. In what esteem you hold them is not entirely my concern. 

historicity, rationale, and science isn't british, it's human. It's essential for our advancement and improvement. It's a lense of humanity, not of the British.  It's what makes them credible and sensical.

 

 

And i'll do so in a bit.

[Kuttabanda2]

On 11/17/2016 at 10:07 AM, paapiman said:

It is a fact that coercion was used during the Akali Lehar to change/modify certain aspects of Sikhism.

On the other hand, look at the bighearted and broad minded nature of Baba Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale. Giving vidhya daan to Naamdharis and also not forcing Sikh Rehat on them.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

It had to be done. To establish, ratify and firmly ground their views. It was quite strategic and plausible to me. There was no other treatment that could be good be given to those who thought prostitution, Devi-Devte worship, and caste discrimination was acceptable in the Panth. Going against Gurmat.

 

Well, Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji sadly wasn't able to bring them back into the Panth now, was he?

 

[Kuttabanda2]

On 11/17/2016 at 10:07 AM, paapiman said:

It is a fact that coercion was used during the Akali Lehar to change/modify certain aspects of Sikhism.

On the other hand, look at the bighearted and broad minded nature of Baba Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale. Giving vidhya daan to Naamdharis and also not forcing Sikh Rehat on them.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

It had to be done. To establish, ratify and firmly ground their views. It was quite strategic and plausible to me. There was no other appropriate treatment that could be given to those who thought prostitution, Devi-Devte worship, and caste discrimination was acceptable in the Panth. Essentially going against Gurmat.

 

Well, Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji sadly wasn't able to bring them back into the Panth now, was he?

 

[Kuttabanda2]

On 11/18/2016 at 11:36 AM, chatanga1 said:

Yes, and their research to substantiate this was so poor. I read a book from the SGPC where they have tried to explain the cutting down of banis read in Rehras. It is so sad to see their pathetic reasoning to stop Chaupai sahib after verse 25. When I read this I thought to myself what kind of knowledge did these people have.

That's actually wrong.  What the SGPC did with Chaupai Sahib isn't even representative of the Singh Sabhas.  Panch Khalsa Diwan, Chief Khalsa Diwan, Rawalpindi Singh Sabha all read and preached Chaupai Sahib to conclude at Arril, as it actually does.  In 'Milgobha Sudhaar' and 'Gurmat Prakaash Sanskaar' The Chaupai Sahib is mentioned to start from "Hamri Karo Haath Dai Rachya...." up to "Ho jo yaaki eik baar chaupai ko kahai".  The change brought by the SGPC isn't representative of the Singh Sabhas.  Even Bhasaurias, after losing their marbles, read Chaupai Sahib till Arril and made a specific injunction to do so. So that can't be used against the Singh Sabhas, as it's not their belief, let alone their doing.

[BhagatSingh]

4 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

It had to be done. To establish, ratify and firmly ground their views. It was quite strategic and plausible to me. There was no other appropriate treatment that could be given to those who thought prostitution, Devi-Devte worship, and caste discrimination was acceptable in the Panth. Essentially going against Gurmat.

This is part of the Singh Sabha ideology.

4 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

What the SGPC did with Chaupai Sahib isn't even representative of the Singh Sabhas.  Panch Khalsa Diwan, Chief Khalsa Diwan, Rawalpindi Singh Sabha all read and preached Chaupai Sahib to conclude at Arril, as it actually does.  In 'Milgobha Sudhaar' and 'Gurmat Prakaash Sanskaar' The Chaupai Sahib is mentioned to start from "Hamri Karo Haath Dai Rachya...." up to "Ho jo yaaki eik baar chaupai ko kahai".  The change brought by the SGPC isn't representative of the Singh Sabhas.  Even Bhasaurias, after losing their marbles, read Chaupai Sahib till Arril and made a specific injunction to do so. So that can't be used against the Singh Sabhas, as it's not their belief, let alone their doing.

This is simply a continuation of the Singh Sabha ideology.

You watch now, they will start questioning Nam Dev ji's bani.

Then they will start questioning Guru Arjun Dev ji's bani.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&fb=0&Param=1082

 

They are ignorant, they don't understand how Mythology works, what the worship of Devi Devte is about and so they foolishly cut out sections of banis.

They cannot explain a lot of things in Guru Granth Sahib even. And Chaupai Sahib is just an easy target because it's not part of Guru Granth Sahib. So they can get away with cutting parts of it.

[paapiman]

15 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

Well, Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji sadly wasn't able to bring them back into the Panth now, was he?

Well, a non-Sikh can possibly argue that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj preached at so any places and did unparalleled amount of parupkaar, yet only a small minority of the world population converted into Sikhi. How will you answer that?

Gurmukh Brahamgyanis follow the hukam of the Almighty Waheguru jee and believe in Sarbat da bhalla.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

16 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

historicity, rationale, and science isn't british, it's human. It's essential for our advancement and improvement. It's a lense of humanity, not of the British.  It's what makes them credible and sensical.

Most likely, you must be aware that how much science has changed from those times to 2010's.

Blind faith and love are more important in religion than rationality.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Liv]

On 9/21/2016 at 2:56 AM, JasperS said:

Pati Parmeshwar concept has no place in Sikhi. Not unless it goes hand in hand with "Patni Parmeshwari".  Seeing God in each other, it goes both ways.

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਸੋਇ ॥
Sabẖ mėh joṯ joṯ hai so▫e.
The Divine Light is within everyone; You are that Light.

If the divine light is within everyone as Gurbani says, then I am no more her pati parmeshwar than my wife is my patni parmeshwari. To expect her to look up to me as something higher than her is unthinkable.

But seeing the divine in someone is different than seeing someone AS God. No human should ever be seen AS God. That is left for Waheguru alone. 

You're a GOOD man - Bless you - you'll make/do make a wonderful life partner. You make your Guru Proud. Well done for being brave enough to say what should be apparent. And totally agreed. Humans are humans - Waheguru is within all - yes God is everywhere but we need to also live in this world. To walk a true path of equality, love and grace in all partnerships including intimate ones (whatever these may look like) is ideal. Not only ideal, it's the Sikh way. Thanks again ! 

[Kuttabanda2]

20 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

This is part of the Singh Sabha ideology.

This is simply a continuation of the Singh Sabha ideology.

You watch now, they will start questioning Nam Dev ji's bani.

Then they will start questioning Guru Arjun Dev ji's bani.

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&fb=0&Param=1082

 

They are ignorant, they don't understand how Mythology works, what the worship of Devi Devte is about and so they foolishly cut out sections of banis.

They cannot explain a lot of things in Guru Granth Sahib even. And Chaupai Sahib is just an easy target because it's not part of Guru Granth Sahib. So they can get away with cutting parts of it.

Yes, an ideology based on sensical reasoning. 

I don't see how the latter was a continuation of "Singh Sabha Ideology". 

They actually do know what diety worshiping is, along with Indic Mythology, as well as the explanations of those Shabads (No one's raised doubts to in regards to it as of now so....), they've written about this and given their input. It's all in their literatures. Do you assume them all to be Bhasaurias or Kala Afghana types?