Jump to content

Very Interesting Critique Of Sgpc Rehat Maryada By Taksaal


dalsingh101

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, JasperS said:

 

No it's not outright instruction, but it does give us a good idea that hair is important. 

I am glad however (can I ask your real name as you keep using mine?) that you acknowledge what is actual instruction and what is not, and that was my point.

Since the passage you quoted earlier is also not instruction for a wife to serve her husband, rather it is using the fact that a loving wife will usually serve her husband (just like any loving human will serve the one they love) as a comparison, which does not preclude the husband also serving the wife.

Quote

Jaspreet sems to think that Guru Granth Sahib is a 100% guide though. Here we are floundering on the basic concept of keeping kes.


 

@chatanga1  (still don't know your name veer) but It was you who actually tried to say that tuk you posted earlier, was an instruction (guide) to women that they are to serve their husband when it's not. I was trying to make a point that Gurbani doesn't have explicit instruction, rather it contains deeper wisdom and uses a lot of metaphor to contain that wisdom.

But anyway mention of kesh in various shabads in metaphorical sense gives us a good idea that it is is important when speaking of spiritual ideas, so we should keep it. In fact Gurbani does make several mentions of the practice of shaving one's head or plucking out one's hairs, and the comparisons are all negative. So that is another clue to keep it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, JasperS said:

But anyway mention of kesh in various shabads in metaphorical sense gives us a good idea that it is is important when speaking of spiritual ideas, so we should keep it. I

Clutching at straws again Jaspreet. Something as basic as this would have been found in more explicit terms in Guru Granth Sahib.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

Clutching at straws again Jaspreet. Something as basic as this would have been found in more explicit terms in Guru Granth Sahib.

 

 

But Gurbani is not really explicit is it? What are you trying to say? I agree Jasper Ji with idea of metaphors. You can derive the truth out of it but it's meant for more than point form do this don't do that. It makes you actually think and ponder existence. Things are not as simple as do this don't do that and you will find vaheguru in yourself. It's more complicated a change has to happen in you and you need that deeper thinking and wisdom or else Guru Granth Sahib Jee would be only few pages long saying do this don't do that and you will find God. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

I'm saying that something as basic as keeping kes would have surely been in Guru Granth Sahib.

It is, but it's not going to come out and tell you don't cut it instead it will make you realize why it's important to keep by giving you examples showIng why, and then make you realize and decide on your own that you should not cut it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, WakeUp said:

It is, but it's not going to come out and tell you don't cut it instead it will make you realize why it's important to keep by giving you examples showIng why, and then make you realize and decide on your own that you should not cut it. 

Guru Granth Sahib doesn't even do that though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 07/10/2016 at 1:11 PM, paapiman said:

ਜੇ ਪਿਰੁ ਬਹੁ ਘਰੁ ਹੰਢਣਾ ਸਤੁ ਰਖੈ ਨਾਰੇ।

Jay Piru Bahu Gharu Handdhanaa Satu Rakhai Naaray.

जे पिरु बहु घरु हंढणा सतु रखै नारे ।

If the husband enjoys (immorally) at many houses, the wife should preserve her chastity.

3 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩੫ ਪਉੜੀ ੨੦ ਪੰ. ੩

 

Also add:

Vaar 37. Also read the 2 pauris previous to this one, (11 and 12)

੧੩ : ਮਾਪਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਅਪਕਾਰੀ ਦੇ ਜਪ ਤਪ ਨਿਸਫਲ ਹਨ

 

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਣੈ ਵੇਦੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ।

Renouncing the parents, the listener of Vedas cannot understand their mystery.

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਕਰੈ ਤਪੁ ਵਣਖੰਡਿ ਭੁਲਾ ਫਿਰੈ ਬਿਬਾਣੀ।

Repudiating the parents, meditation in the forest is similar to the wanderings at deserted places.

 

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਕਰੈ ਪੂਜੁ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵ ਨ ਸੇਵ ਕਮਾਣੀ।

The service and worship to the gods and goddesses are useless if one has renounced his parents.

 

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਨ੍ਹਾਵਣਾ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਘੁੰਮਣ ਵਾਣੀ।

Without service to the parents, bath at the sixty-eight pilgrimage centres is nothing but gyrating in a whirlpool.

 

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਕਰੈ ਦਾਨ ਬੇਈਮਾਨ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਪਰਾਣੀ।

The person who having deserted his parents performs charities, is corrupt and ignorant.

 

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਵਰਤ ਕਰਿ ਮਰਿ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਣੀ।

He who repudiating the parents undertakes fasts, goes on to wander in the cycle of births and deaths.

 

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥੧੩॥

That man (in fact) has not understood the essence of Guru and God.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

Also add:

Vaar 37. Also read the 2 pauris previous to this one, (11 and 12)

੧੩ : ਮਾਪਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਅਪਕਾਰੀ ਦੇ ਜਪ ਤਪ ਨਿਸਫਲ ਹਨ

 

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਸੁਣੈ ਵੇਦੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕਥਾ ਕਹਾਣੀ।

Renouncing the parents, the listener of Vedas cannot understand their mystery.

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਕਰੈ ਤਪੁ ਵਣਖੰਡਿ ਭੁਲਾ ਫਿਰੈ ਬਿਬਾਣੀ।

Repudiating the parents, meditation in the forest is similar to the wanderings at deserted places.

 

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਕਰੈ ਪੂਜੁ ਦੇਵੀ ਦੇਵ ਨ ਸੇਵ ਕਮਾਣੀ।

The service and worship to the gods and goddesses are useless if one has renounced his parents.

 

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਨ੍ਹਾਵਣਾ ਅਠਸਠਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਘੁੰਮਣ ਵਾਣੀ।

Without service to the parents, bath at the sixty-eight pilgrimage centres is nothing but gyrating in a whirlpool.

 

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਕਰੈ ਦਾਨ ਬੇਈਮਾਨ ਅਗਿਆਨ ਪਰਾਣੀ।

The person who having deserted his parents performs charities, is corrupt and ignorant.

 

ਮਾਂ ਪਿਉ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਵਰਤ ਕਰਿ ਮਰਿ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੈ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਣੀ।

He who repudiating the parents undertakes fasts, goes on to wander in the cycle of births and deaths.

 

ਗੁਰੁ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਸਾਰੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੀ ॥੧੩॥

That man (in fact) has not understood the essence of Guru and God.

Basically charity starts at home. There are people who do lots of public service for kudos but if they are ignoring their own loved ones (leaving their parents without care) who brought them up and cared for them, then what's the use? It's all for show only?

The above shabad makes sense. Everyone should care for their own families. The message is for everyone not just an oldest son. The message is that no parents should be left without care. If parents have only daughters they too should also receive care because the shabad makes it apparent that caring of parents is so important (the message would not be that only parents who have a son deserve this service). Ignore the he in language because Gurbani is directed at all and he is often used to direct he and she in same way as man is used for mankind. The message above is not emphasizing the he but the service to parents. If service of parents is of such importance above all other seva then parents who have no son would not be any less deserving. Or else Gurbani is perpetuating son preference over daughter and is a direct cause of female fetus abortions etc in relentless pursuing for sons over daughters which we know the Gurus were vehemently against. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, WakeUp said:

Basically charity starts at home.

No, becasue the chapter is called " ਮਾਪਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਅਪਕਾਰੀ ". that is not charity beginning at home.

 

1 hour ago, WakeUp said:

The above shabad makes sense. Everyone should care for their own families. The message is for everyone not just an oldest son.


Who said it was ?

 

1 hour ago, WakeUp said:

Or else Gurbani is perpetuating son preference over daughter and is a direct cause of female fetus abortions etc in relentless pursuing for sons over daughters which we know the Gurus were vehemently against. 

Only a fool would use an excuse like this to excuse abortions.

 

But have a read of the 2 pauris before this one, and you will see where Bhai Gurdas Ji was heading with this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On October 17, 2016 at 6:54 PM, paapiman said:

What other evidence are you looking for? Do you think that all these Sampradas are lying and have fabricated their lineages?

So when Sant Jarnail Singh jee Bhindranwale said that our first Jathedar was Srimaan Baba Deep Singh jee. What was he implying?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

contemporary, Historical evidence, and contemporary-textual evidence. 

why would I care What Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa Ji was saying in regards to what he was taught and his individual beliefs? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On October 17, 2016 at 7:02 PM, paapiman said:

Groups such as AKJ, Missionaries, etc did not begin during the times of the Satgurus and neither do they claim that. It is good that they are being honest about it. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Neither does Taksal or Nanaksar, and they still don't admit that.

A claim of an unbroken, unadulterated, and fallacy devoid lineage with a claim of a 3 century long game of telephone isn't really reliable. Singh Sabha is older than DamDami Taksal. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/24/2016 at 4:03 PM, Kuttabanda2 said:

A claim of an unbroken, unadulterated, and fallacy devoid lineage with a claim of a 3 century long game of telephone isn't really reliable. 

Bro, Nanaksar only has 5 personalities of the past in their lineage.

Buchonwale babay (guru of Baba Nand Singh jee) was a student of Sant Ram Singh jee, who was the student of Sant Seva SIngh jee. Sant Seva Singh jee stayed with Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master).

Do you seriously think that they got such a small list wrong?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 24/10/2016 at 8:59 PM, Kuttabanda2 said:

contemporary, Historical evidence, and contemporary-textual evidence.

 

There is nothing concrete that the taksal can provide in terms of their lineage apart from what has been passed down thorugh oral tradition. There have been many discussions on here about the origins of the taksal. I'm afraid when it come to contemporary evidence of what we beleive is the practice of Sikhi today, then there isn't much evidence to say anything with concrete evidence. Some have faith in oral tradition, others don't. Some don't beleive in taksal as there is no evidence of the name Taksal in those years (which is correct). Some beleive it is. Each to their own. The history we have of the origins of Sikhi will give us all something different.

 

On 24/10/2016 at 9:03 PM, Kuttabanda2 said:

A claim of an unbroken, unadulterated, and fallacy devoid lineage with a claim of a 3 century long game of telephone isn't really reliable. Singh Sabha is older than DamDami Taksal. 

Singh Sabha came about in the late 1880s. The earliest reference I have seen to the taksal as the "taksal" is in Gur Prem Pad Parkash which I think is around 1880 as well.  But before that this taksal was known as the gyani samprdai. There are references to Gyan samprdai in historical texts, I have read them myself but cannot remember where.

 

20 minutes ago, WakeUp said:

Prove it with something other than hear say. 

trying to prove some things in Sikhi is very hard, as they are passed through oral tradition of guru-shish.

 

This is one of the ploys that Missionaries use, as they say there is no evidence for such and such. Even where there is some writings about certain events, like Guru Nanak Sahib and meetha reetha etc. They say "prove it" and it's hard to. So it's upto the individual if they want to discard it because there is no hard evidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rattan Singh Bhangu writes the following in his Hanuman Steek regarding his lineage, - he uses the word taksal though it probably means something else in this context.

"HISTORY OF TAKSAL: According to Akali Nihang Rattan Singh Bhangu, the Taksal of the Khalsa Akali Nihang Singh's started with the 52 court poets of GURU GOBIND SINGH, Pandit Panjaba, Kavi Saina Singh (Sainapat), and continued in succession with Kor Singh, Mehtab Singh (Same as Sukha Singh and Mehtab Singh), Rai Singh, then Rattan Singh himself:

ਸੋ ਭਾਈ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਪੜ੍ਹੇ ਇਮ ਚਲੀ ਸੁ ਗੁਰ ਟਕਸਾਲ।
ਸੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਦਯਾ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਭੀ ਭਏ ਨਿਹਾਲ।21।

From 'Hanuman Natak Sateek' handwritten manuscript folio 6."

The Damdami Taksal were known as the Giani Sampradaya in the past and can be found in historical writings under that name. Whether it was an organisation or not can be discussed but I dont think there is much discussion to whether there was a lineage of people who kept teaching in a consistent manner descending from Bhai Mani Singh... Kavi Santokh Singh's Gurbhai Baba Megh Singh has also provided similiar lineage to what taksalis claim today and he wrote his book Bhai Sahib Chandarka in the 1830s or so... also see this post I made earlier:

 

Edited by amardeep
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On October 26, 2016 at 11:17 AM, chatanga1 said:

 

There is nothing concrete that the taksal can provide in terms of their lineage apart from what has been passed down thorugh oral tradition. There have been many discussions on here about the origins of the taksal. I'm afraid when it come to contemporary evidence of what we beleive is the practice of Sikhi today, then there isn't much evidence to say anything with concrete evidence. Some have faith in oral tradition, others don't. Some don't beleive in taksal as there is no evidence of the name Taksal in those years (which is correct). Some beleive it is. Each to their own. The history we have of the origins of Sikhi will give us all something different.

 

Singh Sabha came about in the late 1880s. The earliest reference I have seen to the taksal as the "taksal" is in Gur Prem Pad Parkash which I think is around 1880 as well.  But before that this taksal was known as the gyani samprdai. There are references to Gyan samprdai in historical texts, I have read them myself but cannot remember where.

 

trying to prove some things in Sikhi is very hard, as they are passed through oral tradition of guru-shish.

 

This is one of the ploys that Missionaries use, as they say there is no evidence for such and such. Even where there is some writings about certain events, like Guru Nanak Sahib and meetha reetha etc. They say "prove it" and it's hard to. So it's upto the individual if they want to discard it because there is no hard evidence.

There is hard evidence for numerous practices, and historical events in Sikh History. A large chunk of it. Just look at Dr. Ganda Singh's reference library, He has a heap of historical sources from numerous areas. Others Scholars have done something similar. For example, the author of 'Sakhi Mahala Pehla' relied partially on Sakhis found appended to Puraatan Birs and Pothis written by contemporary Sikhs. We have a very firm and well defined structure/framework of Sikhi, that's irrefutable. 

As for Oral Tradition, I'm not one to entirely dismiss Oral Tradition. Kavi Santokh Singh, Gyani Gyan singh and Rattan Singh Bhangu didn't only rely on what was passed down orally, they had a bit of textual work to look into, with them as well. 

There are certain historical events that we do not have a clear picture of, but they're not overshadowing all that our Scholars have collected and researched over the years.

 

The Singh Sabha came in at 1873 not the 1880s. 

The Singh Sabha didn't need to be an ancient archaic Order of Saints to authenticate their findings and legitimacy in many places. They did Khoj. They're not the English nurtured (Ridiculous and ahistorical assertion), double horned, red skinned, demonic entities the Sampardas have portrayed them as. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On October 26, 2016 at 2:28 PM, amardeep said:

Rattan Singh Bhangu writes the following in his Hanuman Steek regarding his lineage, - he uses the word taksal though it probably means something else in this context.

"HISTORY OF TAKSAL: According to Akali Nihang Rattan Singh Bhangu, the Taksal of the Khalsa Akali Nihang Singh's started with the 52 court poets of GURU GOBIND SINGH, Pandit Panjaba, Kavi Saina Singh (Sainapat), and continued in succession with Kor Singh, Mehtab Singh (Same as Sukha Singh and Mehtab Singh), Rai Singh, then Rattan Singh himself:

ਸੋ ਭਾਈ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਪੜ੍ਹੇ ਇਮ ਚਲੀ ਸੁ ਗੁਰ ਟਕਸਾਲ।
ਸੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਦਯਾ ਤੇ ਹਮ ਭੀ ਭਏ ਨਿਹਾਲ।21।

From 'Hanuman Natak Sateek' handwritten manuscript folio 6."

The Damdami Taksal were known as the Giani Sampradaya in the past and can be found in historical writings under that name. Whether it was an organisation or not can be discussed but I dont think there is much discussion to whether there was a lineage of people who kept teaching in a consistent manner descending from Bhai Mani Singh... Kavi Santokh Singh's Gurbhai Baba Megh Singh has also provided similiar lineage to what taksalis claim today and he wrote his book Bhai Sahib Chandarka in the 1830s or so... also see this post I made earlier:

 

I don't discard the whole lineage idea, I just don't think that should be used to claim authority. 

Kavi Santokh Singh was a student of Gyani Sant Singh (whom Taksalis attach to their lineage) and his views on Raagmala are quite clear, contradictory to today's Taksal. 

Bhai Mani Singh's JapJi Sahib exposition puts the Mool Mantar up to Gurprasad whereas today's Taksal goes on to include the Salok following it. There are clear inconsistencies and fallacies. I don't see how they're a better choice over the SGPC (of old). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

I don't discard the whole lineage idea, I just don't think that should be used to claim authority. 

Kavi Santokh Singh was a student of Gyani Sant Singh (whom Taksalis attach to their lineage) and his views on Raagmala are quite clear, contradictory to today's Taksal. 

Bhai Mani Singh's JapJi Sahib exposition puts the Mool Mantar up to Gurprasad whereas today's Taksal goes on to include the Salok following it. There are clear inconsistencies and fallacies. I don't see how they're a better choice over the SGPC (of old). 

Singh it's good to have you on board to share your knowledge with us.

I agree with you that it should not be used to claim authority - critical discussion is always to be done. 

Scholars like Kavi Santokh Singh and Giani GIan Singh are quite late in history and as far as I know they did'n use that much oral history - most of their writings manifest a compilation of all previous writings. 80-85% of his sakhis in Nanak Prakash can be found in the 17th century Janam Sakhi books, whereas only the remaining 15-20% are entirely new and never heard of before sakhis. These were most likely oral traditions written down for the first time.

What is this japji sahib exposition of Bhai Mani singh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

The Singh Sabha didn't need to be an ancient archaic Order of Saints to authenticate their findings and legitimacy in many places. They did Khoj.

They're not the English nurtured (Ridiculous and ahistorical assertion), double horned, red skinned, demonic entities the Sampardas have portrayed them as. 

Taksali/Nirmalay scholars also do khoj. Baba Gurbachan Singh jee Bhindranwale did a lot of khoj in his life.

IMHO, Gurmukhs in Sampradas do give due respect to Singh Sabha Lehar. You might also be aware that some saints such as Sant Attar Singh jee, Sant Sundar Singh jee Bhindranwale, etc, actively supported the Singh Sabha Lehar.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/26/2016 at 2:23 PM, Kuttabanda2 said:

Their leaders would probably force Taksal Maryada over the entire Panth. A Maryada that does not have enough research to substantiate it. 

 

Please listen below on how the shortened version of Sri Rehraas Sahib jee was forced upon the sangat at Sri Harmandar Sahib jee during the Singh Sabha movement.

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On October 28, 2016 at 0:42 PM, amardeep said:

Singh it's good to have you on board to share your knowledge with us.

I agree with you that it should not be used to claim authority - critical discussion is always to be done. 

Scholars like Kavi Santokh Singh and Giani GIan Singh are quite late in history and as far as I know they did'n use that much oral history - most of their writings manifest a compilation of all previous writings. 80-85% of his sakhis in Nanak Prakash can be found in the 17th century Janam Sakhi books, whereas only the remaining 15-20% are entirely new and never heard of before sakhis. These were most likely oral traditions written down for the first time.

What is this japji sahib exposition of Bhai Mani singh?

It's a Teeka By Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji on JapJi Sahib, based on his conversations with Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...