G.Kaur Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 Death is inevitable and we are all going to die one day. That is the only thing we can be 100% sure of that is going to happen in our lives, whether we want it to or not. An interesting question for me is how long can/should you postpone something that is already predestined like death? I am a nurse that works at a cardiology unit, where we often have patients that are there to die, because there is nothing else we can do for them, or patients whose families don't want us to stop treatment (even though there is nothing more we can do) and insist that we give their loved ones all sorts of drugs. This is a very hard dilemma for me to be in on a daily basis, because I believe that God gives and takes life. I would like the Sangat's opinion on when one should stop treatment (if at all) and let nature take it's course or should one keep on treating the terminally ill even though there are no prospects? Assisted suicide is illegal in my country, so instead a large dose of morfin is given to paralyze the respiratory center in the brain, so patients don't feel pain and they are soothed. I try to avoid these situations, because I don't want to be the nurse that gave the "last injection" before the patient died. I want to know how one can avoid these situations, when you work in the medical field? Thank you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 16, 2011 Report Share Posted May 16, 2011 An interesting question for me is how long can/should you postpone something that is already predestined like death? I suppose it would be "as long as possible ethically." Dont you have to go through training for this kind of stuff eg giving last doses of morphine (as its spelt in UK) and possibly watching people die. I thought that after so many times you would get used to it. Like the people who work in morgues and stuff. the 1st body they handle will always produce emotions which would reduce over repeated processes. In my own experience i (out of curisoity) watched on the intrenet a man having his head cut off. I was really shocked at this and felt sick. But after watching a few more, the shock just wasnt there as much. I think that exposure to it just kinda made it normal. I think that people who live in war zones as well, are accustomed to bombs and bullets and big bangs and just get used to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I suppose it would be "as long as possible ethically." Dont you have to go through training for this kind of stuff eg giving last doses of morphine (as its spelt in UK) and possibly watching people die. I thought that after so many times you would get used to it. Like the people who work in morgues and stuff. the 1st body they handle will always produce emotions which would reduce over repeated processes. In my own experience i (out of curisoity) watched on the intrenet a man having his head cut off. I was really shocked at this and felt sick. But after watching a few more, the shock just wasnt there as much. I think that exposure to it just kinda made it normal. I think that people who live in war zones as well, are accustomed to bombs and bullets and big bangs and just get used to it. Excuse my bad spelling, but English is my third language. I am sure if I lived in the UK like you I would be better at it. Do forgive me. You missed the point with my entire question. I am not asking for workplace advice on how to handle giving morphine or watching people die. I am asking for advice on how to handle it morally, and whether I am allowed to do it or not based on the tenets of my faith. Getting used to killing people and/or watching them die is not an issue. Don't respond to this topic unless you can help. P.s. Intrenet is spelled internet and curisoity is spelled curiosity (in my country anyway). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) Although I understand that the act of inserting morphine into a patient can be directly related to what occurs afterwards, perhaps on another level the impression that you have so much control over the lives/deaths of these people is a false one? In Japji we read we have: ਜੋਰੁ ਨ ਜੀਵਣਿ ਮਰਣਿ ਨਹ ਜੋਰੁ ॥ No power to live, no power to die. Actually, I know that this is a gross simplification of the matter and not helpful at all. What I can say is that when it comes to the end, and a person's quality of life has diminished to such an extent that they are not in control of their physical, mental faculties, many of us would probably consider it a blessing to be sent on our way (I know I would). Morbid, but true. Just don't ever get callous and mechanical about it I guess, and always fill yourself up with compassion for your patients, right till the end. Whatever else they've faced up until that point, you do have the power to ensure that they pass on with a good heart/soul around them. That's how I would like to see things if I ever ended up under those circumstances. Edited May 17, 2011 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 I try to avoid these situations, because I don't want to be the nurse that gave the "last injection" before the patient died. I want to know how one can avoid these situations, when you work in the medical field? Thank you. apologies ji, it just doesnt look like you were asking from a moral angle when you wrote it as above. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted May 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 apologies ji, it just doesnt look like you were asking from a moral angle when you wrote it as above. well if you focus on that one line then yes it does not look like I am asking for moral advice, but that was not all I wrote. I feel that my post in it's entirety is pretty clear on what I am asking. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Maybe try looking at it another way....morally. What is your duty/dharama? If it is to give the 'last injection', so be it. Just do it! Don't concern yourself about what will happen afterwards, just do your duty. Let the big man upstairs worry about thae results. Follow your dharama. Whether someone lives or dies is beyond your dharamic remit. It is your duty to follow orders from your superiors (Drs and Nurses and God). Its the same lesson that Krishan Ji gave to Arjan on the eve of the battle. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 It is your duty to follow orders from your superiors (Drs and Nurses and God). Following God...okay. But dude what kind of lullo blindly follows orders from up the hierarchy without engaging their brain or questioning it! That's probably what the Nazis relied on to do all their crap. Plus that following your dharma stuff sounds suspiciously like Brahmanism encouraged following of your caste duties unquestioningly. Noooooooooooo!!!!! lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 Following God...okay. But dude what kind of lullo blindly follows orders from up the hierarchy without engaging their brain or questioning it! That's probably what the Nazis relied on to do all their crap. Plus that following your dharma stuff sounds suspiciously like Brahmanism encouraged following of your caste duties unquestioningly. Noooooooooooo!!!!! lol Of course if the Doc says give a child 10mg of morphine because its got a toothache you would question it. even if its coming from a highly thought of doctor. I'm not too clued up with all this Brahamanism/Bhamanvaad stuff. If it is, maybe they twisted the teachings of the Gita to suit their personal ends? Strangely enough, most doctrines end up being twisted/manipulated/changed by people; even Sikhi! But I do believe it is a valid principle for g Kaur to follow in this situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mekhane'ch Jannat Posted May 17, 2011 Report Share Posted May 17, 2011 What is your duty/dharama? If it is to give the 'last injection', so be it. Just do it! Don't concern yourself about what will happen afterwards, just do your duty. Let the big man upstairs worry about thae results. Follow your dharama. Whether someone lives or dies is beyond your dharamic remit. It is your duty to follow orders from your superiors (Drs and Nurses and God). Its the same lesson that Krishan Ji gave to Arjan on the eve of the battle Im sorry to say that this is absolutely absurd. This type of thinking encourages mindlessness and totally unresponsible behaviour. A true persons Dharma would be to question what is right and wrong not just blindly do things and then start to blame God when you seriously begin to suffer for unheedful acts. Death is a very serious thing and each Being going through the process of death can be filled with God power and Shaktis/energies that will seperate the substances of his/her individuality. There are some customs at funerals where the dead persons family say that if the deceased owed anyone any money that they will pay it off. And also any ill-will or bad feelings were tried to be resolved as these could hinder the progression of the individual after death. Also I read about a sect in India that actually say everything bad about the dead person at the funeral, so that no one keeps any bad feelings in his heart for them. So it is only worth continuing life if it can help the dying person pay off debts and settle and arguments or rows he may have had. If the person is not conscious then IT is not a person as a human being is only human because of consciousness and awareness mixed with mitti. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted May 18, 2011 Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Death is inevitable and we are all going to die one day. That is the only thing we can be 100% sure of that is going to happen in our lives, whether we want it to or not. An interesting question for me is how long can/should you postpone something that is already predestined like death? I am a nurse that works at a cardiology unit, where we often have patients that are there to die, because there is nothing else we can do for them, or patients whose families don't want us to stop treatment (even though there is nothing more we can do) and insist that we give their loved ones all sorts of drugs. This is a very hard dilemma for me to be in on a daily basis, because I believe that God gives and takes life. I would like the Sangat's opinion on when one should stop treatment (if at all) and let nature take it's course or should one keep on treating the terminally ill even though there are no prospects? Assisted suicide is illegal in my country, so instead a large dose of morfin is given to paralyze the respiratory center in the brain, so patients don't feel pain and they are soothed. I try to avoid these situations, because I don't want to be the nurse that gave the "last injection" before the patient died. I want to know how one can avoid these situations, when you work in the medical field? Thank you. As for keeping them alive longer, daya for the person's family and their wishes is also required. As for stopping treatment, I see nothing wrong with that as they would die anyways and it is a relief from their pain. But when it comes to the large dose of morphine, it is done intentionally to kill the person. If it is done to terminate their life, then I feel it is clearly against Sikhi as you would be taking things into your own hands that should be left up to the creator. Of course, that's just my opinion and you may want to ask a sadhu about that. You need to listen to your conscience, the best course may be to meditate for a while and let the answer come to you. We all have our own karams and some people are meant to suffer before death. The truth is that when a person dies it looks like it's in our hands in that situation, but it is just a bawana. We have X number of swas in our lives, and no matter what doctors or nurses do, we cannot gain more. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted May 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2011 Thank you for all the replies. Will read them when I get back from work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 As for keeping them alive longer, daya for the person's family and their wishes is also required. As for stopping treatment, I see nothing wrong with that as they would die anyways and it is a relief from their pain. But when it comes to the large dose of morphine, it is done intentionally to kill the person. If it is done to terminate their life, then I feel it is clearly against Sikhi as you would be taking things into your own hands that should be left up to the creator. Of course, that's just my opinion and you may want to ask a sadhu about that. You need to listen to your conscience, the best course may be to meditate for a while and let the answer come to you. We all have our own karams and some people are meant to suffer before death. The truth is that when a person dies it looks like it's in our hands in that situation, but it is just a bawana. We have X number of swas in our lives, and no matter what doctors or nurses do, we cannot gain more. Thank you for your reply, Xylitol. I live in a country where there are no Panj Singh's who do seva in Panj Pyare, otherwise I would ask them for advice. The next time I'll probably have darshan of Panj Pyare will be at Sant Baba Thakur Singh Jee's Barsi in the UK in December if I go, and since there are 7 months left I thought it would be better to ask here first. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 if you're in or near uk, many mahapurkhs come to visit. you should try asking one of them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 As for stopping treatment, I see nothing wrong with that as they would die anyways and it is a relief from their pain. What if that pain were due to past karam, and if you alleviated that pain beforehand? would they have to take janam again to go through it fully? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 What if that pain were due to past karam, and if you alleviated that pain beforehand? would they have to take janam again to go through it fully? Well if the pain is due to past karam and you have to suffer then what is the gurantee that you will die if you stop treatment 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted May 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 if you're in or near uk, many mahapurkhs come to visit. you should try asking one of them. I will. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zulu Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 g.kaur, where are you from? if you dont wish to write on here you can inbox me! you sound like you're in some remote pind 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted May 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Oye Zulu, don't turn this topic into a where-do-you -live-G.Kaur. You're going off-topic I live in Scandinavia. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Oye Zulu, don't turn this topic into a where-do-you -live-G.Kaur. You're going off-topic I live in Scandinavia. don't take panga with mods they are like kings of a website you may regret it in future 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SURYADEV Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 'scandinavia' is too vague. where exactly? you drive volvo? good cars ever been to Santa Kalsi's dera in the north pole. I heard that his sevadar's are quite small guys. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted May 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 don't take panga with mods they are like kings of a website you may regret it in future I used to be a mod on this website 2 years ago, so they know me and they're not gonna mess with me 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdsingh80 Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 I used to be a mod on this website 2 years ago, so they know me and they're not gonna mess with me Haha I was mod of SPN just few months back,now they treat me like trash 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.Kaur Posted May 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 'scandinavia' is too vague. where exactly? you drive volvo? good cars ever been to Santa Kalsi's dera in the north pole. I heard that his sevadar's are quite small guys. I'm from a planet called Venus We are a lot of abnormal, weirdo's and we worship a Sant called Baba Jee. You are always welcome to come see our planet in your holidays 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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