Sikhism And Caste

[paapiman]

All material which does not align with Gurmat should be exposed and discarded if we are to progress.

 

​Calling alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc, as Sikhs is also against Gurmat.

Do you know that cutting kesh is as sinful as Incest.

Bhul chuk maaf

[mrsingh]

It is like Muslims, doing away with circumcision.

​The most fundamental point about Rehat is remembering Akaal Purakh and focussing on actions which benefit humanity through Sarbat da Bhala. Thus it can be argued that those outwardly professing to keep rehat yet aggressively aiming to exclude Sikhs from the Panth in order to do the dirty work of Hindutva forces are to all intents and purposes are patits. I won't go so far as to argue that you are a patit (as I think you say what you do out of sincerity) however, you have to see the negative impact occurring by pushing those people who you dislike out of Sikhi and into the Hindu fold.

​Calling alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc, as Sikhs is also against Gurmat.

Do you know that cutting kesh is as sinful as Incest.

Bhul chuk maaf

​No I disagree.

The minority of Sikhs that smoke, eat meat, use drugs, cheat or sell themselves should be assisted to leave such life choices. The best way to do that is to see them as fellow brothers and sisters within the Sikh Panth. How exactly will we help them when we exclude them as ordinary lay members of the Sikh Panth? Will classifying these people as Hindu's help them? Or will it assist the Hindutva political agenda?

Most Indians are not even Hindu. The Hindutva strategists only barely get to the figure of 79% of the population by manipulating figures and including every belief system within the mythical umbrella of Hinduism for political hegemony purposes.

The hundreds of millions of poor Indians outside Punjab whom a minority of which might smoke, do drugs etc should be encouraged to see themselves as sehajdhari Sikhs as only via this strategy will Khalsa Raj (rule via justice) come closer to pass.

I keep my kes however your point about cutting hair being as sinful as incest is ludicrous and deliberately exposes Sikhi to ridicule amongst the 99.9% majority of the human population outside Punjab that do not keep their hair.

 

[Sukhvirk76]

​

​Without khanday wala amrit, a person cannot call himself a Sikh.

Furthermore, kesh is the root of Sikhi. How will a tree grow, without roots?

Quote

pRQm rihq Xih jwn KMfy kI pwhul Cky ] soeI isMG pRDwn Avr n pwhul jo ley ]
prathham rehith yehi jaan kha(n)ddae kee paahul shhakae ||asoee si(n)gh pradhhaan avar n paahul jo leae ||
To drink the Ambrosial Nectar of the Khanda (Amrit) is the primary instruction for the Sikh. He who abandons all other initiations is truly a great Sikh.

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://www.sikhitothemax.com/rehat.asp?id=92

No khanday da amrit = no Sikhi = non-Sikh

More details in the post below.

Bhul chuk maaf

Was guru nanak a sikh? He didn't take amrit? 

[CdnSikhGirl]

​rehith binaa(n) nehi sikh kehaavai ||

Without Rehat, there is no Sikhi.

Bro, changing the basics of our religion, will be the most stupid thing, we could do. It is like Muslims, doing away with circumcision.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

​There;s already several differing Rehats.... Now if you also exclude anyone not following the same one you do Paapiman (which I know you do) that brings who you consider 'actual sikhs' down to an abysmal minority that you make sound like an exclusive 'club'.  You can keep your exclusive club. I'd rather be part of a Sikhi that has potential to spread around the world and change people's spiritual lives. 

[paapiman]

 

 

I keep my kes however your point about cutting hair being as sinful as incest is ludicrous and deliberately exposes Sikhi to ridicule amongst the 99.9% majority of the human population outside Punjab that do not keep their hair.

 

 

There;s already several differing Rehats.... Now if you also exclude anyone not following the same one you do Paapiman (which I know you do) that brings who you consider 'actual sikhs' down to an abysmal minority that you make sound like an exclusive 'club'.  You can keep your exclusive club. I'd rather be part of a Sikhi that has potential to spread around the world and change people's spiritual lives. 

Talk to our father, Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee Maharaaj, if you have so much problem with the basics of Sikhism.

Bhul chuk maaf

Was guru nanak a sikh? He didn't take amrit? 

Bro, Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj is God. He was here to distribute amrit, not to take amrit.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

The most fundamental point about Rehat is remembering Akaal Purakh and focussing on actions which benefit humanity through Sarbat da Bhala. Thus it can be argued that those outwardly professing to keep rehat yet aggressively aiming to exclude Sikhs from the Panth in order to do the dirty work of Hindutva forces are to all intents and purposes are patits. I won't go so far as to argue that you are a patit (as I think you say what you do out of sincerity) however, you have to see the negative impact occurring by pushing those people who you dislike out of Sikhi and into the Hindu fold.

No I disagree.

The minority of Sikhs that smoke, eat meat, use drugs, cheat or sell themselves should be assisted to leave such life choices. The best way to do that is to see them as fellow brothers and sisters within the Sikh Panth. How exactly will we help them when we exclude them as ordinary lay members of the Sikh Panth? Will classifying these people as Hindu's help them? Or will it assist the Hindutva political agenda?

Most Indians are not even Hindu. The Hindutva strategists only barely get to the figure of 79% of the population by manipulating figures and including every belief system within the mythical umbrella of Hinduism for political hegemony purposes.

The hundreds of millions of poor Indians outside Punjab whom a minority of which might smoke, do drugs etc should be encouraged to see themselves as sehajdhari Sikhs as only via this strategy will Khalsa Raj (rule via justice) come closer to pass.

I keep my kes however your point about cutting hair being as sinful as incest is ludicrous and deliberately exposes Sikhi to ridicule amongst the 99.9% majority of the human population outside Punjab that do not keep their hair.

 

Minority is better than a majority, based on falsehood.

Giving false assurance to alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc that they are Sikhs, is deception.

Deception is worse than telling a bitter truth.

Bhuk chuk maaf

  

 

I keep my kes however your point about cutting hair being as sinful as incest is ludicrous and deliberately exposes Sikhi to ridicule amongst the 99.9% majority of the human population outside Punjab that do not keep their hair.

The incest rule does not apply to non-Sikhs.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

There;s already several differing Rehats.... Now if you also exclude anyone not following the same one you do Paapiman (which I know you do) that brings who you consider 'actual sikhs' down to an abysmal minority that you make sound like an exclusive 'club'.  You can keep your exclusive club. I'd rather be part of a Sikhi that has potential to spread around the world and change people's spiritual lives. 

  

The most fundamental point about Rehat is remembering Akaal Purakh and focussing on actions which benefit humanity through Sarbat da Bhala. Thus it can be argued that those outwardly professing to keep rehat yet aggressively aiming to exclude Sikhs from the Panth in order to do the dirty work of Hindutva forces are to all intents and purposes are patits. I won't go so far as to argue that you are a patit (as I think you say what you do out of sincerity) however, you have to see the negative impact occurring by pushing those people who you dislike out of Sikhi and into the Hindu fold.

No I disagree.

The minority of Sikhs that smoke, eat meat, use drugs, cheat or sell themselves should be assisted to leave such life choices. The best way to do that is to see them as fellow brothers and sisters within the Sikh Panth. How exactly will we help them when we exclude them as ordinary lay members of the Sikh Panth? Will classifying these people as Hindu's help them? Or will it assist the Hindutva political agenda?

Most Indians are not even Hindu. The Hindutva strategists only barely get to the figure of 79% of the population by manipulating figures and including every belief system within the mythical umbrella of Hinduism for political hegemony purposes.

The hundreds of millions of poor Indians outside Punjab whom a minority of which might smoke, do drugs etc should be encouraged to see themselves as sehajdhari Sikhs as only via this strategy will Khalsa Raj (rule via justice) come closer to pass.

I keep my kes however your point about cutting hair being as sinful as incest is ludicrous and deliberately exposes Sikhi to ridicule amongst the 99.9% majority of the human population outside Punjab that do not keep their hair.

Use Gurbani and Rehatnamay to prove your point, rather than stats and personal opinions.

Bhul chuk maaf

[mrsingh]

if you have so much problem with the basics of Sikhism.

 

Essentially paapi Ji i'm arguing that i believe it's you yourself who is failing to grasp the basics of Sikhism via your insistence that the Sikh Panth's population must be made smaller and smaller over time whilst increasing the Hindu population to match.

Minority is better than a majority, based on falsehood.

If being a minority is better for humanity and Sarbat da Bhala then I presume you supported the Genocide of Sikhs by Pakistan in 1947 and the Genocide of Sikhs by Congress from 1984? Neither of which would have occurred if Sikhs had been a majority population. If you want Sikhs to be a microscopic powerless minority then you are de facto arguing that you support the fact that Sikhs should be a vulnerable community dominated by others and prone to Genocide should the non-Sikh majority of the world decide the fate of Sikhs whichever way they please.

Why do you feel the need to bolster your point by lumping together sehajdhari Sikhs with perverts?

What is so difficult to understand about the fact that there can be Amritdhari, Kesdhari and Sehajdhari Sikhs within the Sikh Panth?

 

The incest rule does not apply to non-Sikhs.

How convenient! So sehajdhari Sikhs are committing worse than incest in your opinion. But you wouldn't dare say that to a non-Punjabi as you know it would only bring ridicule to what is perceived about Sikhi.

Gurbani defines a true Sikh (Gurmukh) yet nowhere does Gurbani or Guru Sahib mention that sehajdhari Sikhs are to be excluded from the Sikh Panth and pushed away into the arms of the Hindu fold.

I personally do not eat meat but if I am understanding you correctly you seem to consider Nihangs as non-Sikhs.

Do you also consider Taksali's as non-Sikhs? As many other Sikhs disagree with their bowing towards 3 granths.

Did you agree with Babbar Khalsa's classification of DamDami Taksal followers as non-Sikhs when DamDami Taksal campaigned for Congress and Indira Gandhi in the 1980 elections, which laid the framework for Indira Gandhi's Genocide of Sikhs.

Essentially are you paapi the only Sikh in the world and how many other Sikhs in the world are there like you?

 

 

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Every time I use Gurbani to prove any of my points, you conveniently ignore it... so why bother? You have a one track mind...

Mr Singh: In fact, Paapiman only considers taksalis and a few other so-called orthodex sects as true Sikhs.  He doesn't even acknowledge panthic decision and at every opportunity denegrates the panthic rehet maryada. Which btw defines a Sikh as thus:
 

Chapter I - Sikh Defined

Article I – Definition of Sikh

Any human being who faithfully believes in:

• One Immortal Being

• Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Dev to Guru Gobind Singh

• The Guru Granth Sahib

• The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus

• The baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any

other religion, is a Sikh.

---

So that would include sehajdharis.  As long as they believe in the baptism (does not say they have to have taken it at this point in thier life). 

Paapiman does not consider me to be Sikh either because I donèt follow Damdami Taksals Rehet Maryada.  I follow Sikh Rehet Maryada and believe women who are Amritdhari deserve equal rights in Sikhi with regards to religious duties and seva.  He follows taksalis who say that women deserve less rights - should not be allowed to be Panj Pyaras, should be kept from seva during certain times, showld bow to their male husbands who he deems as always being higher status than their wives etc.  Not sure how he considers Nihangs... they eat meat so either he does not consider them to be true Sikhs, or if he does he will come up with some excuse where he does not have to justify his answer ( a favourite of his is that none of us are spiritually advanced enough to possibly understand the will of the creator, or he will just dodge it all together and write some meaningless response like its easy to talk to the talk of a brahamgyani but hard to walk the walk... or something similar) Paapiman is beyond help.  He talks like he has been effectively brainwashed.

Gurbani is clear on casteism, AND sexism.  He picks and chooses though. And everyone who follow anything but the same orthodox RM that he does are not Sikhs in his eyes.

[paapiman]

 

Every time I use Gurbani to prove any of my points, you conveniently ignore it... so why bother? You have a one track mind...

 

Please use Gurbani to prove that alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc, can be classified as Sikhs.

Bhul chuk maaf 

 

 

• The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus

 

Satguru jee has clearly ordered his Sikhs to stay away from four cardinal sins.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

We are going off-topic.

Can someone please move all the off-topic posts to a new topic?

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

Mr Singh: In fact, Paapiman only considers taksalis and a few other so-called orthodex sects as true Sikhs.  He doesn't even acknowledge panthic decision and at every opportunity denegrates the panthic rehet maryada. Which btw defines a Sikh as thus:
 

 

Paapiman does not consider me to be Sikh either because I donèt follow Damdami Taksals Rehet Maryada.  I follow Sikh Rehet Maryada and believe women who are Amritdhari deserve equal rights in Sikhi with regards to religious duties and seva.  He follows taksalis who say that women deserve less rights - should not be allowed to be Panj Pyaras, should be kept from seva during certain times, showld bow to their male husbands who he deems as always being higher status than their wives etc.  Not sure how he considers Nihangs... they eat meat so either he does not consider them to be true Sikhs, or if he does he will come up with some excuse where he does not have to justify his answer ( a favourite of his is that none of us are spiritually advanced enough to possibly understand the will of the creator, or he will just dodge it all together and write some meaningless response like its easy to talk to the talk of a brahamgyani but hard to walk the walk... or something similar) Paapiman is beyond help.  He talks like he has been effectively brainwashed.

Women in Punj pyaray, gender inequality, so-called panthic decision, etc have nothing to do with this topic. These issues have been discussed in the past.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

Essentially paapi Ji i'm arguing that i believe it's you yourself who is failing to grasp the basics of Sikhism via your insistence that the Sikh Panth's population must be made smaller and smaller over time whilst increasing the Hindu population to match.

If being a minority is better for humanity and Sarbat da Bhala then I presume you supported the Genocide of Sikhs by Pakistan in 1947 and the Genocide of Sikhs by Congress from 1984? Neither of which would have occurred if Sikhs had been a majority population. If you want Sikhs to be a microscopic powerless minority then you are de facto arguing that you support the fact that Sikhs should be a vulnerable community dominated by others and prone to Genocide should the non-Sikh majority of the world decide the fate of Sikhs whichever way they please.

Why do you feel the need to bolster your point by lumping together sehajdhari Sikhs with perverts?

What is so difficult to understand about the fact that there can be Amritdhari, Kesdhari and Sehajdhari Sikhs within the Sikh Panth?

 

How convenient! So sehajdhari Sikhs are committing worse than incest in your opinion. But you wouldn't dare say that to a non-Punjabi as you know it would only bring ridicule to what is perceived about Sikhi.

Gurbani defines a true Sikh (Gurmukh) yet nowhere does Gurbani or Guru Sahib mention that sehajdhari Sikhs are to be excluded from the Sikh Panth and pushed away into the arms of the Hindu fold.

I personally do not eat meat but if I am understanding you correctly you seem to consider Nihangs as non-Sikhs.

Do you also consider Taksali's as non-Sikhs? As many other Sikhs disagree with their bowing towards 3 granths.

Did you agree with Babbar Khalsa's classification of DamDami Taksal followers as non-Sikhs when DamDami Taksal campaigned for Congress and Indira Gandhi in the 1980 elections, which laid the framework for Indira Gandhi's Genocide of Sikhs.

Essentially are you paapi the only Sikh in the world and how many other Sikhs in the world are there like you?

 

Bro, 

Please use Gurbani to prove that alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc, can be classified as Sikhs.

Btw, I don't consider myself a Sikh.

We can discuss off-topic issues in other threads.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

Why do you feel the need to bolster your point by lumping together sehajdhari Sikhs with perverts?

What is so difficult to understand about the fact that there can be Amritdhari, Kesdhari and Sehajdhari Sikhs within the Sikh Panth?

How convenient! So sehajdhari Sikhs are committing worse than incest in your opinion. But you wouldn't dare say that to a non-Punjabi as you know it would only bring ridicule to what is perceived about Sikhi.

 

Bro, the definition of a Sehajdhari has been discussed in the topic below.

Please don't degrade the term of Sehajdhari by applying it to alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

Edited July 16, 2015 by paapiman

[Guest]

Guest post wrote:

 

according to Gurbani

paapiman is NOT a Sikh

[CdnSikhGirl]

Believing in something and being able to strictly follow it are two different things.  As long as you acknowledge your short comings...

Gurbani however teaches that ALL HUMANS (whether amrtidhari, sehajdhari, non-Sikh, male, female, all castes, etc are EQUAL)

Page 93, Line 18
ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਸਮ ਦਲ ਸਮਝਾਵੈ ਕੋਊ ॥੩॥
Raviḏās sam ḏal samjẖāvai ko▫ū. ||3||
O Ravi Daas, one who understands that the Lord is equally in all, is very rare. ||3||
 

Paapiman, this includes those who are not Amrtidhari, cut their hairs. It includes women. It even those who are misguided and commit crimes. God is equally in ALL. Why we fail to see it?  The inability for the stubborn, pigheaded Ego to give up its grip over the consciousness within us. If you give up and tell yourself, that only a Brahamgyani will ever understand or be able to see it, so why bother treating everyone as if they were equal... then you have already lost your way.  Anyone who puts people into any sort of heirarchy (and privilege) based on any perceived physical differences like what gender they are, or what family background they are, has missed the whole point to humanity. And this includes putting people into heirarchy based on who has taken Amrit or not, who cuts their hair or not. They ill cease cutting it when they are ready. It doesn't mean they don't believe in the teachings of the Gurus, or that they don't try to follow as much of Sikhi as they can.  Nobody should be treated differently than anyone else, and everyone should have the exact same opportunities. It's duality that makes humans create privilege for some while others lose out.

It's also a personal journey... you can only judge yourself not others.

Page 148, Line 8
ਨਾਨਕ ਪਰਖੇ ਆਪ ਕਉ ਤਾ ਪਾਰਖੁ ਜਾਣੁ ॥
Nānak parkẖe āp ka▫o ṯā pārakẖ jāṇ.
O Nanak, if someone judges himself, only then is he known as a real judge.
 

 

[ibrute]

Was guru nanak a sikh? He didn't take amrit? 

All gurus are Amritdhari. Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj had taken khande baate da Amrit from panj pyaare. He is the living soul embodiment of all the gurus from Guru Nanak Dev Jee Maharaj upto Guru Teg Bahadar Jee Maharaj. So yes all Guru Sahib including Guru granth sahib Jee Maharaj are baptised.

[Koi]

The Sikh caste system:

Jat are the best.

The rest are crap. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

The Sikh caste system:

Jat are the best.

The rest are crap. 

Weren't Jatts all simple farmers?? Why would a simple farmer be seen as the best? LOL That's funny (looking as an outsider and if we are talking about traditional careers - why would an artisan like carpenter which takes actual talent, be seen as less than a farmer?? If it's about land ownership, trades now days rake in far more income than farmers do, unless it's large scale mechanized farming and even then, farming is not rocket science....)

Anyway, who cares what someone's career is when talking about their status or worth?  Want to get rid of this stigma? Stop using former surnames and refuse to talk about your family's traditional caste when asked.  Be Singh or Kaur only... 

[Koi]

Weren't Jatts all simple farmers?? Why would a simple farmer be seen as the best? LOL That's funny (looking as an outsider and if we are talking about traditional careers - why would an artisan like carpenter which takes actual talent, be seen as less than a farmer?? If it's about land ownership, trades now days rake in far more income than farmers do, unless it's large scale mechanized farming and even then, farming is not rocket science....)

Anyway, who cares what someone's career is when talking about their status or worth?  Want to get rid of this stigma? Stop using former surnames and refuse to talk about your family's traditional caste when asked.  Be Singh or Kaur only... 

you're right. ....This is funny. ...because it was supposed to be! 

I was attempting to highlight the current state of affairs when it came to caste by playing on a very common and very well known (though I guess not that well known! ) stereotype.

.....its no fun when you have to explain your own jokes.

[paapiman]

Guest post wrote:

 

Dhan Guru Nanak ..... tu heen Nirankaar

Believing in something and being able to strictly follow it are two different things.  As long as you acknowledge your short comings...

Gurbani however teaches that ALL HUMANS (whether amrtidhari, sehajdhari, non-Sikh, male, female, all castes, etc are EQUAL)

Not only all humans, but all beings are equal, which includes animals, plants, etc.

Bhul chuk maaf

All gurus are Amritdhari. Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj had taken khande baate da Amrit from panj pyaare. He is the living soul embodiment of all the gurus from Guru Nanak Dev Jee Maharaj upto Guru Teg Bahadar Jee Maharaj. So yes all Guru Sahib including Guru granth sahib Jee Maharaj are baptised.

Bro, except for Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj, all other Satgurus took amrit. 

When did first master take amrit? First master did not have any guru, as he is the biggest guru himself.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited October 12, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Gurbani however teaches that ALL HUMANS (whether amrtidhari, sehajdhari, non-Sikh, male, female, all castes, etc are EQUAL)

Gurbani teaches that God resides in all beings (even non-living matter), but if rodents, pests, etc, start coming into a Gurudwara, we will have to kill them, not do their seva. There are physical differences in beings, which cannot be ignored by ordinary people like me.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 17, 2015 by paapiman

[mrsingh]

Btw, I don't consider myself a Sikh

Paapi Ji in the context of you conceding that you yourself are not a Sikh, then your hesitation to accept that the wider Sikh Panth is not solely defined by Gurmukhs makes sense.

So now that we have got over that hurdle let's agree that non-Sikhs such as yourself and me should all work together to nevertheless expand the basis upon which Sikhi can serve humanity in a bigger and better way globally.

Key to that Paapi Ji is that you regarding yourself as a non-Sikh is completely fine (in terms of your spiritual state and paapi actions) however let's try to increase the numbers of people who consider themselves part of the Sikh Panth (including yourself as a member of the Panth regardless of via your actions and soch you feel that you are not a Sikh).

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Gurbani teaches that God resides in all beings (even non-living matter), but if rodents, pests, etc, start coming into a Gurudwara, we will have to kill them, not do their seva. There are physical differences in beings, which cannot be ignored by ordinary people like me.

Bhul chuk maaf

Well then I guess you are stuck in maya... 

Gurbani says God is in everything not just the animals but also the plants and minerals.  The entire universe is simply the unfolding and evolving consciousness of the Creator.  We are also told that this human life is special because as any other life, we are not evolved consciously to be able to contemplate ourselves, our purpose and God.  That's why we are told not to waste THIS human life. It's not about the physical differences AT ALL. It's about the differences in consciousness and spiritual evolution.  And all HUMANS whether male, female, caste, creed, ethnicity, race etc are all the exact same.  

Sorry you can't grasp that or follow Gurbani regarding it Paapiman:

Page 599, Line 2
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||
As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||

It's not saying as Brahamgyani... it's saying as GURMUKH... It's not saying only certain people can see this so the rest should not worry or bother about it... rather it's an INSTRUCTION commanding that we do it.

[kdsingh80]

rehith binaa(n) nehi sikh kehaavai ||

Without Rehat, there is no Sikhi.

Bro, changing the basics of our religion, will be the most stupid thing, we could do. It is like Muslims, doing away with circumcision.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

Islam too has very strict Rehat. Beard Namaz, Roza  hijab etc . But musl;ims are very practical they don't call anybody who is not adhering these as non muslim. . They even accepted pork eating alchohol drinking Jinnah as their leader. For them one can be a good muslim or not so good muslim. Sikhs on the other keep saying he is not a sikh that is not a sikh result many people whose ancestors were sikhs or closely associated with sikhism are now fully Hindu

[jaikaara]

Islam too has very strict Rehat. Beard Namaz, Roza  hijab etc . But musl;ims are very practical they don't call anybody who is not adhering these as non muslim. . They even accepted pork eating alchohol drinking Jinnah as their leader. For them one can be a good muslim or not so good muslim. Sikhs on the other keep saying he is not a sikh that is not a sikh result many people whose ancestors were sikhs or closely associated with sikhism are now fully Hindu

I came across several families whose grandfathers and forefathers were Sikhs ..currently they follow Hinduism . Got a colleague with a Sikh lineage is a hardcore smoker and a strong congress loyalty ..had tried to talk to him and the answer was what sewa do sikhs brag about ..the langar halls are full of fat punjabis instead of poor and needy.

I couldnt argue further.

[paapiman]

Well then I guess you are stuck in maya... 
Gurbani says God is in everything not just the animals but also the plants and minerals.  The entire universe is simply the unfolding and evolving consciousness of the Creator.  We are also told that this human life is special because as any other life, we are not evolved consciously to be able to contemplate ourselves, our purpose and God.  That's why we are told not to waste THIS human life. It's not about the physical differences AT ALL. It's about the differences in consciousness and spiritual evolution.  And all HUMANS whether male, female, caste, creed, ethnicity, race etc are all the exact same.  

Sorry you can't grasp that or follow Gurbani regarding it Paapiman:

Page 599, Line 2ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||
As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||

It's not saying as Brahamgyani... it's saying as GURMUKH... It's not saying only certain people can see this so the rest should not worry or bother about it... rather it's an INSTRUCTION commanding that we do it.

The state of a Gurmukh is very high too. The word Gurmukh has several meanings. It can also mean God.

Bhul chuk maaf

Page 599, Line 2ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||
As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||

What will you do if mosquitoes, pests, rodents, etc, start coming to your house? Answer this first.

Bhul chuk maaf

Page 599, Line 2ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||
As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||

What will you do, if someone comes to rob your house or comes to assault you?

Bhul chuk maaf

Paapi Ji in the context of you conceding that you yourself are not a Sikh, then your hesitation to accept that the wider Sikh Panth is not solely defined by Gurmukhs makes sense.

So now that we have got over that hurdle let's agree that non-Sikhs such as yourself and me should all work together to nevertheless expand the basis upon which Sikhi can serve humanity in a bigger and better way globally.

Key to that Paapi Ji is that you regarding yourself as a non-Sikh is completely fine (in terms of your spiritual state and paapi actions) however let's try to increase the numbers of people who consider themselves part of the Sikh Panth (including yourself as a member of the Panth regardless of via your actions and soch you feel that you are not a Sikh).

 

Bro, please use Gurbani to prove that alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc, can be classified as Sikhs.

Don't worry about numbers. Do you know, how low Sikh population was in Punjab after Baba Banda jee's shaheedi? Still, we survived and became rulers of the land. Reason - Kirpa of the tenth master. 

Increasing numbers by deception, is worse than bitter truth. For example, you call a mona, Sikh. Then that same mona studies Skh scriptures and figures out that he cannot be classified as a Sikh. How would he feel?

Bhul chul maaf

Edited July 17, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Islam too has very strict Rehat. Beard Namaz, Roza  hijab etc . But musl;ims are very practical they don't call anybody who is not adhering these as non muslim. . They even accepted pork eating alchohol drinking Jinnah as their leader. For them one can be a good muslim or not so good muslim. Sikhs on the other keep saying he is not a sikh that is not a sikh result many people whose ancestors were sikhs or closely associated with sikhism are now fully Hindu

Circumcision is a must in Islam. I don't think, they will call a non-circumcised person as a Muslim.

Similarly, kesh is the root of Sikhi.

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

The state of a Gurmukh is very high too. The word Gurmukh has several meanings. It can also mean God.

Bhul chuk maaf

What will you do if mosquitoes, pests, rodents, etc, start coming to your house? Answer this first.

I make sure my home will not attract them to begin with by not leaving fruit out, and cleaning!  If I find a spider or something larger (I even did this with a wasp recently), I capture it in a cup, open my balcony door and release it.  But I am sure I accidentally killed bugs and if there was an infestation, to answer your question, yes I would have to remove it for hygiene issue.  However, you entirely missed the point. You can't compare the minor difference between male and female humans as the same to an insect compared to human.  I already told you it's not the physical differences.  It's the difference in evolved consciousness and spiritual evolution that makes humans different from animals and insects etc.  You can't say the same for male and female humans.  I already tried to explain this to you.... You want to find any excuse to treat women as inferior to men based on minor physical differences... but spiritually and consciously we are equally evolved and our consciousness has no gender.  PLEASE STOP TRYING TO COMPARE WOMEN TO LESSER ANIMALS in relation to men!!! If you really think that, you ARE hopeless and have lost your way!

Bhul chuk maaf

What will you do, if someone comes to rob your house or comes to assault you?

Call the police... how does that have anything to do with this???  That person is evolved same consciousness level as us, but is obviously more controlled by their ego, and stuck deep within Maya.  Jail time, counselling etc would do them good. 

Bhul chuk maaf

^^^^ exactly... so please consider what others are telling you! Don't say the above statement without actually meaning it! 

Page 599, Line 2ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਏਕ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
Gurmukẖ ek ḏarisat kar ḏekẖhu gẖat gẖat joṯ samo▫ī jī▫o. ||2||
As Gurmukh, look upon all with the single eye of equality; in each and every heart, the Divine Light is contained. ||2||

That line from Gurbani is INSTRUCTION.  You are big on Gurmat and following everything to a T.  It's not suggesting that only a few humans can see everyone with single eye of equality and telling the rest to not bother because you will never see it.  What it's saying is TREAT everyone (humans in this case for the reason I have stated above - because Gurbani also says this human life is rare and is our time to be able to contemplate - and meet - God) TREAT ALL HUMANS with a single eye of equality.  The result is that you will eventually start to actually see it.  But even if you don't see it, it's still telling you to DO IT!!!!! 
It's saying as a Gurmukh DO THIS.  It's not saying only Brahamgyanis can see it so hey you don't have to... don't worry about it.  It's INSTRUCTING YOU TO DO IT. Yes, this means stop trying to put some humans higher than others for ANY reason.  NOBODY should be bowing to ANYONE!  Nobody should have less rights than anyone else. It's really not that difficult... most countries actually have laws enforcing it! It's called human rights... not male rights... So please get off your male high horse and forget about your penis being a free ticket to higher status.  You didn't win some penis lottery being born as a male to automatically get higher status.  And please stop trying to compare women to insects!!! It really makes you look low... 

Really if you just can't see past gender, or caste, or disabilities, etc than this is a problem within YOU!  And it's something YOU need to fix.  Or else you can never hope to progress! 

I am sorry you can't see past your penis, and understand these basic concepts... me explaining them over and over won't help you.  Maybe some psychological counselling might help you realize why you hold so much contempt against women?? I am not sure... but I'm done with you. 

 

 

[paapiman]

Quote

Call the police... how does that have anything to do with this???  That person is evolved same consciousness level as us, but is obviously more controlled by their ego, and stuck deep within Maya.  Jail time, counselling etc would do them good. 

Unquote

Why call the police -  God resides in the robber/assaulter. Let them do whatever, they want.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 17, 2015 by paapiman

[CdnSikhGirl]

Quote

Call the police... how does that have anything to do with this???  That person is evolved same consciousness level as us, but is obviously more controlled by their ego, and stuck deep within Maya.  Jail time, counselling etc would do them good. 

Unquote

Why call the police -  God resides in the robber/assaulter. Let them do whatever, they want.

Bhul chuk maaf

Because obviously the robber / assulter is going AGAINST humanity.  A woman is not going against humanity for simply being a woman... why can't you see this??? Are you trying to say a woman having equal opportunity and rights to men is seriously the same thing as a robber or even worse an insect?? Come on you are better than this... a penis does not mean superiority!

Here is a little tidbit for you:

Gurbani says we are ALL female and Waheguru is the ONLY male. 
This is actually PROVEN by science.  YOU were once female.. physically.  ALL HUMANS possess the SAME DNA.  ALL FETUSES begin as a female.  Regardless if the father contributed an X or Y chromosome.  That doesn't come into play until later.  And the Y chromosome is inactive.  And all it does is trigger the release of the hormone testosterone to bathe to fetus in.  Without being bathed in testosterone, a fetus will always REMAIN female.  Similarly, without the Y chromosome, if a fetus was manually bathed in testosterone using artificial means, it would become genetically male.

ALL HUMANS however, no matter what gender, still possess the SAME HUMAN DNA.  THIS is why a woman compared to a man is NOT like an insect.  Gurbani even makes this clear... that this human life is rare and is the ONLY chance to meet our creator.  It doesn't say this is men's only chance and women are still like cockroaches in evolution. No, it says HUMAN.
By the way - The ONLY reason that humans evolved to have sexual reproduction requiring gender, as opposed to asexual reproduction, is that sexual reproduction ensures a more diverse genetic code, which lessens the chances for genetic errors - and even then they still happen.... can you imagine if we reproduced by asexual means?  There would be no diversity in the human race, and many 'clones' would die.  But in a very real sense, the differences in gender are skin deep... they are superficial only. Because the DNA is the SAME - HUMAN.

Again, if you can't see past your penis, then you are beyond help.   I am blocking you now so I don't have to read any more of your stupid suggestions that women compared to men are like insects. 

By the way, did you know that the ability exists in science to alter female eggs to deliver genetic code as a sperm would?  Do you know the GREATER suggestion this makes? That's right... the human race could exist with females only.  It could not exist with only males.  Take that one and try to justify male superiority.   I really hope you get past this ego Paapiman.  Because if you don't I really fear you have a LOOOOOOOONG journey ahead spiritually speaking.

Have a good life. 

Rest of you, sorry it got off topic, but it was unjustified to compare women to insects.  In the sense of the original topic, caste like any other perceived status is against Gurbani.  So they are all related. The basic point is we are all human...and equal.