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Taliban Regime or Sikhism?


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We should face it... and discuss it as a group... not jus pass rules and regulations... times are changing and if one wants to see sikhism stand as a religion in the future, we have to change as ppl with it... it means that we have to bring the SGGS into the 21st century...

canadian Jatt ji,

Could you elaborate on the paragraph I have quoted? So we can understand your message? What kind of changes you think sikhism requires in order to make it compatible with 21st centuary?

Once you do that then we will proceed further with this debate.

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I think we have to be more excepting of the sikhs that we have today... whether they be keshdharis or non-keshdhari... because to solve a problem one must get to the root of it...

To me the problem is that I see the amritdharis as being very unaccepting of others... everything must be one way... therefore ppl like myself are not appealed by that lifestyle where one must give up living life.

My view of an amritdhari person is one who basically becomes an ascetic within this world, all I have ever seen them do is kirtan, simrin, paath... thas it... and I'm not saying it's bad, by all means no.... mate thats what we should all be doing, but within reason... with a balance... we cannot jus become monks, because thats exactly what Guru Nanak Dev Ji said... we have to still make the most of the life that we're given, to be and experience it.... and to remember Him throughout it all...

That's one thing... also the whole idea of makeup or not, I think it should be left up to the individual to decide, but as group we should not be outright condemning it... perhaps if one accepts another that does wear make up over time that person will not want to wear it out of their own accord, but thas up to you all...

I feel that to me living the life I have right now is a lot better then what i've seen as amritdhari... because i believe that I have striked a balance between the material life and the spiritual (by no means am I perfect, there are areas where I need to work on, but believe me I'm much much different from what I was three yrs back....)...

But I thank God for the life that he has given me and hope that I become a good enuff person that he'll accept me when my time comes... but I have fun too... I go to wedding parties, dinner parties... I walk through this world and live it... rather than turn my head away from it and think that that's not what my Guru ji's would me to be doing... because that's part of living a Ghrasti life... to be interacting and socializing...

and if we become more accepting of ppl... pretty soon the msg of God will spread... but everyone has to make that one step of saying to themselves "That whatever that person may be doing is not my problem... that person is God to, just like all of His creation... " and to just love the person... and not try to change them... change has to come from within the individual...

I hope I make sense... if not sorry....

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Guest kaur1699

Fateh Ji,

IMy view of an amritdhari person is one who basically becomes an ascetic within this world, all I have ever seen them do is kirtan, simrin, paath... thas it...

I try to do the things mentioned above as much as possible, but I also do other things in life... Its not that if you are Amritdhari, you can't go out, have fun and enjoy yourself...

There are alot of things that I do, the things I don't do are things that I don't believe in.

There is nothing to say that once you are Amritdhari that you can't have fun and enjoy life... I am...

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wot da hell? once u becum an amritdhari, u do simran, paath(which u guys ting isnt fun..fine...k...i get it) but u reach a hole new different level where fun is not an issue anymore...god is all that matters......the reason y u guys tink fun is so important, is coz u havnt reached that level...i no i havnt, but i no that i will and i can . but this dusnt jus cum wid goin out, cinema, bowlin, wid m8s..havin a laugh..it cums wid comitment paath simran..and hav u guys eva bin 2 rhensbai?? amazin man...now i wouldnt sey it wos fun, but guys...its sooooooooo much beta then fun.

it even sez in ggsj that u should laugh excessively, concentrate on paath, simran and u'll reap rewards later...

fateh every1

sukh..if u read this..i'm sure u woudl b so proud of meee :D , itink i've finally matured....or not

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Guest BikramjitSingh

Canadian jatti

The whole purpose of this forum is so that we can learn the views of others regarding Sikhi. It allows us to both educate and be educated.

Trying to compare the views of Sikhs whichone finds unpalatable as similar to the Taliban is an insult. Perhaps you should do some research on how conditions were like under the Taliban. I find it insulting for such a comparison to be made. No matter what Nindaks like Narsingha have to say, we are a long way away from being like the Taliban. We will never get a situation where you will get bands of Sikhs trashing other Sikhs because they havent done matha tek at the Gurdwara or they are accused of not doing their nitnem. Yes you will get views when you ask for them.

I assume the whole purpose of your posting is to learn the views of others. If so then you should either accept them, reject them or be indifferent. By criticising them you are only doing the exact same thing that you think those who you don't agree with you are doing. No one here claims a monopoly of the truth. The other posters put forward their understanding of Sikhi's position. To accept or reject is entirely up to you. I may be totally wrong but I do get a sense that you yourself do not entirely stand by your own views. The fact that you are here shows that you are willing to learn from others. You are right that everyone will face Waheguru alone in the end. There is no allowance for being misled by others, in the end you make your own decisions. Everyone is on this 'Gurmat Gaadi Rah' the highway of Sikhi and are at stages of the journey. The fact that we may disagree with the views of others doesn't mean that one of you is necessarily wrong. It's all about the stage you are at.

What you need to decide is whether it is you or the ones whose views you do not agree with are more spiritually advanced.

You also stated that Gurbani teaches us that Ganika the prostitute achieved salvation. But also consider that Bhai Gurdas wrote the we shouldn't place our hope in exceptions. If Waheguru emancipated Ganika then this does not mean the prostitution is good or that we can do the same in the hope that the same will happen to us.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

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Guest kaur1699

wot da hell? once u becum an amritdhari, u do simran, paath(which u guys ting isnt fun..fine...k...i get it) but u reach a hole new different level where fun is not an issue anymore...god is all that matters......the reason y u guys tink fun is so important, is coz u havnt reached that level...i no i havnt, but i no that i will and i can . but this dusnt jus cum wid goin out, cinema, bowlin, wid m8s..havin a laugh..it cums wid comitment paath simran..and hav u guys eva bin 2 rhensbai?? amazin man...now i wouldnt sey it wos fun, but guys...its sooooooooo much beta then fun.

it even sez in ggsj that u should laugh excessively, concentrate on paath, simran and u'll reap rewards later...

fateh every1

sukh..if u read this..i'm sure u woudl b so proud of meee :D , itink i've finally matured....or not

:D :wink:

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Hmmmm.... ok.... I know everyone won't agree with me, because it's kinda tooo ideal in real life I guess....

I've said and done things that I've apologised for and even now if i've offended anyone I'm sorry....

To discuss the different aspects that have come up i'm going to break them down...

the comparison that I started out with:

The reason I chose to bring that comparison up is that I feel with the way I have read and seen different answers to posts and everything, that is the direction sikhism may be heading... restrictions are popping everywhere on how to speak, how to dress and such... i'm not saying that it's not a good thing, but there has to be reason, one cannot just say absolutes, because in this world there is no absolute other than God Himself...

The taliban regime started in the mid-90's where extreme views of islam were warped to create an ideal islamic state... women under this regime were not allowed to wear any revealing clothes of any sort and if she showed by any chance even a shred of skin, she could be beaten, there weren't allowed to wear make up or dress up, had to be accompanied by male relatives all the time...

These restrictions came about as a warped view of the koran, what I see is that absolutes of dressing and appearance is leading sikhism away from the actual sikhi... we are more concerned about our appearance in the world rather than what our actions and thoughts should be... I have seen my own cousins who r amritdhari eat meat chori chuppe in their house...

So to me that is bein an amritdhari in that situation is only dekhava for the world... there is not love for God...

Hence I believe my comparison is legit as it drives it home that such restrictions will lead no where but to downfall...

As i've stated before thank God we haven't got our own country yet, otherwise who knows how it would be run with such katard-ness...

MY view of an amritdhari....

This is what I have seen, I don't know you all out there in the Uk or wherever else u may be, but this is what I have seen from My own experience... u may have fun and all, that good, please share it with me, because i have no other views regarding this other than what was presented to me...

And there everyone goes again in pushing me away, rather than trying to educate me and showing me other possibilities, you all shoot me down saying that what I'm saying and doing is wrong... I'm only a learner trying to debate and discuss what I see is going on around me, i'm trying to grasp this world which I see full of hypocrisy... I want our religion to be more open and understanding, but I'm beginning to see that it's not possible....

That no one wants to learn, everyone just blindly follows...

I'm sorry for creating such a havoc (as it seems...) and there's no point in posting on this website if one cannot do what I have tried too...

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sorri penj,

And there everyone goes again in pushing me away, rather than trying to educate me and showing me other possibilities, you all shoot me down saying that what I'm saying and doing is wrong... I'm only a learner trying to debate and discuss what I see is going on around me, i'm trying to grasp this world which I see full of hypocrisy... I want our religion to be more open and understanding, but I'm beginning to see that it's not possible....

That no one wants to learn, everyone just blindly follows...

sori, its jus wen u sey stuff, u make it seem lyk fact, rather than an opinion...ou rreligoin is open and understanding, an jus because idiots lyk me make u feel lyk this, dusnt hav any bearing on the religoin itself. i'm sori if u thort i wos bein 2 harsh.......please 4giv meee

fateh penji xxx

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I try really hard to make sure that it comes out as being MY view.... i try to include me, my and i... but we've gotten very used to skimming over ppl's posts that those words don't tend to stick out...

The whole reason i came to this site is to learn what sikhi has to offer me... but I'm not sure anymore... there was a point two weeks ago where I was arguing with my own dad about this stuff... but this week I've been feeling that perhaps he's rite... there can't be religion in this world... only spirituality is pure, any time one tries to standardise morals and beliefs into a system called religion, ppl manipulate and misintepret for their own good... for their own power...

and this is my view, just to make sure...

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yeh i agree wid ya...religoin spoils and confuses alot of tings..wots da point of it???every1 is kinda part of the same religion, and every religioin's focus is based on bein a good person,

BUT...ppl need dere own interpretations, thats jus how we r....spirituality is the purest ting and cums in different forms, in different religions.

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Hmmmm.... ok.... I know everyone won't agree with me, because it's kinda tooo ideal in real life I guess....

Let's not assume things and we need to get real here.

I've said and done things that I've apologised for and even now if i've offended anyone I'm sorry....

Im not offended though. And I guess nobody asked for apology either. We all have freedom of expression and you're using the right of expressing yourself but the only difference is that in every post you judge members by giving your ultimate conclusion without waiting for while.

To discuss the different aspects that have come up i'm going to break them down...

Let's see....

The reason I chose to bring that comparison up is that I feel with the way I have read and seen different answers to posts and everything, that is the direction sikhism may be heading... restrictions are popping everywhere on how to speak, how to dress and such... i'm not saying that it's not a good thing, but there has to be reason, one cannot just say absolutes, because in this world there is no absolute other than God Himself...

We can assume so many things in our life and they are not absolute the way you have written above. You have been using "maybe" so many times so you are not certain or sure about things you been saying so it should give you anwser for your question that by seeing few individuals opinions you should not make judgement because at the end nobody is trying to force you but they are simply stating their opinions. Also, we need to follow God's decision that he has given us favor by giving us human life otherwise we would have been cat, crow etc. As you know that its scientifically proved that human has the right mind to make judgement and if we believe in God then we have to accept this that God want us to make judgement after contemplation of the things so let's not make our brain useless and throw everything on that almighty God who has blessed us with brain which can make judgements.

The taliban regime started in the mid-90's where extreme views of islam were warped to create an ideal islamic state... women under this regime were not allowed to wear any revealing clothes of any sort and if she showed by any chance even a shred of skin, she could be beaten, there weren't allowed to wear make up or dress up, had to be accompanied by male relatives all the time...

You are naive enough to make comparison of sikhism Vs taliban regime but its ok we all are free to express our views otherwise how we are going to learn if we will hide them? My friend you need to be aware of the Islam first and learn what their "sahria law" is and how their religion runs. It seems bad to us when they wear veil to cover their woman because our religion has stopped this way back in front of moghuls the ones were strongly in favour of Sharia law. We can't call them bad because when you convert to Islam then you're submitting yourself to Islam. they don't believe in adopting way of religion but whoever becomes muslim they accept the submission of themselves in name of Allah. Here is link http://www2.ari.net/gckl/islam/law.htm for you to read what does Sharia law say which is acceptable in Islam but not in Sikhism.

These restrictions came about as a warped view of the koran, what I see is that absolutes of dressing and appearance is leading sikhism away from the actual sikhi

You are discussing two different ideologies. Here is the difference in Islam and Sikhism in nutshell.. http://www.sikhs.org/relig_m.htm

There is no restrictions like covering yourself same as Islam preaches but it has been stated that woman should not loose her modesty.

Sikhism was the first to give woman equality and freedom on planet earth.

1. Sikh gurus were the first one to stop women torture. Guru Nanak have said it in 1400 "We are born of woman, we are conceived in the womb of woman, we are engaged and married to woman. We make friendship with woman and the lineage continued because of woman. When one woman dies, we take another one, we are bound with the world through woman. Why should we talk ill of her, who gives birth to kings? The woman is born from woman; there is none without her. Only the One True Lord is without woman" (Guru Nanak Dev, Var Asa, pg. 473)

And these western countries have started it in 1800s and some in 1900.

Religious dress code is same as company dress code. You have to follow them in order to look professional. Also, sikhism is not forcing you to cover your body from head to toe and if it does then let me know. If you have taken amrit then there are few rules not restrictions the ones are acceptable to keep modesty. And in order to change your views visit www.sikhkids.com and visit their picture section to see the pictures of Amrtidhari girls/guys and it will help you to understand the great part of being baptized and sikhism and take away that stereotype image you have for Amritdharis. Just get it straight You can't have Amrit and on the same time you wear mini skirt and saying " Wahe Guru ji ka khalsa, Wahe guru ji ki" ...

We are more concerned about our appearance in the world rather than what our actions and thoughts should be

Well, its not a matter of concern but thoughts and actions we are talking about.. If you don't have muscles then how can you be bodybuilder? If you don't know how to drive car then how can you be on a path to become racer? If you're scared to even touch horse then how can you be horse rider? So, same goes for sikhism. Sikhism preaches to live by God and be happy what God gives you and live easy simple life. How can we expect someone to be spritually strong who is not willing to leave the illusion of this materialistic world? So that make up and other things come in illusion categories which belongs to this world not to spritual world which you are most interested in... Also guru ji stopped genderism when you take amrit..

I have seen my own cousins who r amritdhari eat meat chori chuppe in their house. So to me that is bein an amritdhari in that situation is only dekhava for the world... there is not love for God...

Again your naive comparision. I have read your own comments that " don't judge the book by its cover" and see what you are doing by yourself? You are judging all Amritdhari people just because your own cousin are not fully dedicated to path which they've chosen? Do you think you are right in your comparison?

Hence I believe my comparison is legit as it drives it home that such restrictions will lead no where but to downfall...

If we follow rules at university, schools or at work then we don't go to downfall but we become more deciplined and that's the reason that we have them for us and sikhism gives us some rules you might see them as restrictions. Just take the example of your cousin they couldn't keep that decipline and that's why you're using their comparision and judging not just one but all Amritdhari so please keep your words and stick to rule " We are not here to judge anyone" ...

This is what I have seen, I don't know you all out there in the Uk or wherever else u may be, but this is what I have seen from My own experience... u may have fun and all, that good, please share it with me, because i have no other views regarding this other than what was presented to me...

visit this site and it might help you to learn more...

http://www.sikhkids.com/events.htm

And there everyone goes again in pushing me away, rather than trying to educate me and showing me other possibilities, you all shoot me down saying that what I'm saying and doing is wrong.

Have patience and that's how you can learn and get options...

I'm only a learner trying to debate and discuss what I see is going on around me

Your desire....

i'm trying to grasp this world which I see full of hypocrisy

Your conclusion....

I want our religion to be more open and understanding, but I'm beginning to see that it's not possible.

Its all good because we are not here to judge you or force you. Its your life and go with the flow... 8)

But if you have intention to learn then go ahead read these threads..

Why I embrace Sikhism.

Part one:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=915

Part two:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...topic.php?t=916

That no one wants to learn, everyone just blindly follows...

Just because nobody is willing to agree on certain things you say doesn't mean that nobody is willing to learn or following blindly. I have seen one girl who has started to wear turban just because she got inspired here. The problem you have that you want to stick to your ideas and want to see sikhism that way, and in that case its impossible for others to agree with you.. Again " we are not here to judge anyone"

I'm sorry for creating such a havoc (as it seems...) and there's no point in posting on this website if one cannot do what I have tried too...

Here is your first post's paragraph...

Ok... I'm very open minded so I want ur opinions, I want this to be a good discussion alrite ppl, and don't worry about ticking me off... I'm kewl with all, so chill and relax (I'm a debater so it's in me to refute refute refute....lol...)

I don't see that quality in you. You have lack of patience. You have gone opposite to your own words by judgin others. Also, you are in hurry to come to conclusion. Do we have any option...?

(I'm a debater so it's in me to refute refute refute....lol...)

So, this is how you want to learn? if you replace "refute" with learn then you can learn a lot....

My ending note:

When logic fails to open someone's mind, compassion may open his heart.

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what gurbani says:

maal kai maanai roop kee sobhaa eith bidhhee janam gavaaeiaa ||1|| rehaao ||

You are wasting this life in the pride of wealth and the splendor of beauty. ||1||Pause|Guru Nanak Dev Ji Siree Raag 24

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raaj kapatta(n) roop kapatta(n) dhhan kapatta(n) kul garabatheh ||

Power is fraudulent, beauty is fraudulent, and wealth is fraudulent, as is pride of ancestry. Guru Arjan Dev Ji Raag Jaithsree 708

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joban roop maaeiaa madh maathaa bicharath bikal badda abhimaanee ||

I am intoxicated with the wine of youth, beauty and the riches of Maya. I wander around perplexed, in excessive egotistical pride. Guru Arjan Dev Ji Svaiyay Mehl 5 1387

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SSA

reading thru all the posts , i thnk that we somewhere lost the topic and things got too personal.

in my opinion as long as you know how to carry a dress decently you should be alright...well if the intentions are right than any dress or make up would be alright but if your intentions are not crystal clear than you know where you are heading to .

it so happens that most of the time we are influenced by our surroundings and are easily effected by peer presure , but to say that what we do under those circumstances makes us happy , well this for us to answer ...isnt it

wjkk wjkf

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  • 2 weeks later...

Fateh ji

I have tried to read all the posts and found them really interesting. As usual, a very informative post Nogroup singh, learnt alot from there. I know its abit late and the discussion has progressed alot further, but I really want to share my views on this post that penji made.

I think we have to be more excepting of the sikhs that we have today... whether they be keshdharis or non-keshdhari... because to solve a problem one must get to the root of it...

To me the problem is that I see the amritdharis as being very unaccepting of others... everything must be one way... therefore ppl like myself are not appealed by that lifestyle where one must give up living life.

I Used to think the same way about amritdharis as being very unaccepting of others, very strict and used to think one can only become amritdhari if they wanted to become a " Giani"...etc. But then when I started to talk to gurmukhs, found that they are more accepting then anyone I every knew. This lifestyle is not where one gives up living life but on the contrary, start to live life.

I feel that to me living the life I have right now is a lot better then what i've seen as amritdhari... because i believe that I have striked a balance between the material life and the spiritual (by no means am I perfect, there are areas where I need to work on, but believe me I'm much much different from what I was three yrs back....)...

All I can say here is that I was in the same boat as you, but one cannot really know the taste of the pudding even however much the next person describes it until tasting it yourself. You have seen amritdharis and made judgement on that, but there is alot more to what meets the eye.

But I thank God for the life that he has given me and hope that I become a good enuff person that he'll accept me when my time comes... but I have fun too... I go to wedding parties, dinner parties... I walk through this world and live it... rather than turn my head away from it and think that that's not what my Guru ji's would me to be doing... because that's part of living a Ghrasti life... to be interacting and socializing...

Penji, the question is not about whether guru ji will accept us, they are there with open arms just waiting for the time when we want to accept them to be our guru. Life without guru ji is life without any purpose. Just click the link below, read and understand the whole shabad.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=3234

Amritdharis do have fun! What is fun? Fun is what one enjoys to do. Everyone here has a different understanding to what fun is. To some, fun is going out to pubs and clubs drinking and getting drunk, to others it might be to go out to cinemas, eating out and spending time with friends, to some might be to play sports, and to some fun is going to rehansbais, doing kirtan, going to the gurdwara to do sewa with friends.....etc. Everyone in their own right is enjoying themselves even though it is not seen by the other person.

Talking about socialising, in the western culture, socialising means going to bars and clubs to have alcohol while interacting with others, If one doesnt want to do that, does that make him/her unsociable? I think not.

It is really good that you have a balance in life and coming into sikhi.....keep it up. I think I have gone away from the topic and I do apologise for that.

Do ask questions like this and feel free to express yourself, I dont think anyone is here to judge anyone, but just to share views and opinions and to learn from each other.

I hope I havent offended you or anyone here in anyway as that was not my intention.

Fateh ji

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