UDASIS

[Hari]

Dear GABROO Ji, you said:

i dont' think the guru sahibs would aprove of sects forming within the sikh panth

Udasi Panth is not a sect within Sikhi.They are there, they have existed since the time of Sri Guru Nanak Dev.You could say they are celibate order (Samprada) of Sikh of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.I hope you understand this.

For you GABROO Ji, here is the link telling the story of Baba Sri Chand, Baba Gurditta and Baba Mohan Jit that you asked for:

http://gobindsadan.org/babasirichand/aarta.shtml

Here is the bit you are after, from the above link:

It is a historical fact that all the Gurus loved and respected Baba Siri Chand ji. Guru Amar Das ji gave his eldest son, Baba Mohan ji to serve Baba Siri Chand ji. Guru Hargobind Sahib offered his son, Baba Gurditta, the father of Guru Harkrishan ji (7th Guru) to be Baba Siri Chand ji's devotee and successor. Baba Siri Chand ji gave the name "Amritsar" that is used today to the city that had been called Ramdaspur. And the place where Guru Arjan Dev ji waited daily for his meetings with Baba Siri Chand ji and his resting place are still marked by the historical sites of Thamb Sahib and Manji Sahib at the village of Barath. Babaji also gave water from his baoli (spring) for the Sarovar (sacred pool) at Tarn Taran.

And something you will be interested to know, from above link:

The historical annals of Jehangir show that Baba Siri Chand was considered the Fakir of all Fakirs in India and had the greatest following of anyone at that time.While history is full of treachery and betrayal, Babaji did not take advantage of his position when Jehangir conspired to have Baba Siri Chand ji take over the Gurgaddi (the seat of the Guru) when Guru Hargobind Sahib was imprisoned in Gwalior. Babaji clearly told the Emperor that he had best free Guru Hargobind Sahib as the Guru was the true and rightful successor to Guru Nanak's throne. Other wise there would be grave consequences. The Emperor heeded his warning.

Please read the whole of the above link.Thank you.

I hope your assumptions and prejudices about Baba Sri Chand Ji and the Udasi have been washed away now.I hope so anyway.Sat Sri Akal.

[Hari]

Dear 7naam you said:

Phaji I get the impression you know a fair bit on this topic and so would like to ask if you know anything about Dera Baba Nanak that is in the village of Gurdaspur by the India - Pakistan boarder. The Baba Ji there at the moment are baba Balbir Singh Bedi Ji and they are currently doing sewa of looking after Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Chaula.

I'm sorry I cannot confirm if Baba Balbir Singh Bedi Ji is still there doing seva.Dera Baba Nanak is where the Satguru spent His last days.The Chola Sahib is there, I believe it was given to Guru Nanak Dev at Baghdad by a Muslim Pir (holy man).I've found a good link for you though which mentions Dera Baba Nanak, Panja Sahib, and Guru Sahib's udasi to Baghdad/Arabia.Here it is:

http://www.info-sikh.com/BhagPage1.html

Enjoy.

[sukha]

Guru Pyario.....

You've got to remember that in every part of sikhi, in every religion, in every race of the world there are good and bad people. For example take Aurangzeb the muslim emperor he was a blood thirsty tyrant, but on the other hand you have Pir Buddhu Shah also a muslim who was one of the most pious and devoted saints who has ever lived.

Remember it was the udasi Baba Kirpal Das who fought along side Guru Gobind Singh Maharaaj Ji in Paonta Sahib. It is true that he was one of the only udasis who was left at Paonta Sahib, but still he was an udasi. (If anyone is blessed enough by Guru Ji to visit Paonta Sahib remember to visit the small Gurdwara there dedicated to the loving memory of Baba Kirpal Das...the gurdwara sahib is currently looked after by two Nihang Singhs. :nihung: :sikhiwink2: ) Guru Gobind Singh Ji said to Baba Kirpal Das that Baba Kirpal Das had saved the Udasi Panth in house of Guru Nanak by not leaving Guru Ji in the time of battle, Guru ji is also have said to have blessed the Udasi Panth so that it may continue producing heroes like Baba Kirpal Das Ji.

It was the udasis who looked after our religious texts when the Khalsa Singhs were being hunted down. It was the udasis who kept the gurdwaras running and the udasis who kept the copies of our eternal Guru, Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj. We must be grateful to them for this huge seva.

Lets leave these distinctions behind us.....Sikhi was not created to divide humanity but to unite. Thats why Guru Nanak Ji Maharaaj stopped the caste system...wots the point in starting more divides.

Sikhi teaches love, unity and compassion....well at least thats wot nimaana das here thought.....i could be wrong

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karni

Forgive any mistakes please

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

I agree with a lot of that. The thing I'd disagree with is the assumption that different groups equals problems. It is important to remember that Guru ji created these groups for a reason. The strict ahimsa of the Sewapanthis, the scholarly mysticism of the Nirmalae, the warrior lifestyle of Nihang. I believe these groups are important because they are units that create that whole unity. It is as natural as the diversity of mindset you would find in any five people. The traditional sampradavan seem united in a mutual accpetance.

The issue of modern groups is different because they have not been created by the Gurus. We must therefore question who has created them, for what reason, and on what grounds do they qualify as Sikh. The modern groups seem divisive because of each assuming to be the 'only' correct path.

therefore this interest in sampardavan means a clash of ideologies both political and spiritual.

[sukha]

Gurfateh

Sikhi is a beautiful religion that includes people of all frames of mind and skills. Nirmalas, Udasis, Adhan Shahi, Nihang, Taksaali, Akj, Nanaksari etc.... theres one thing we all have to remember....

"EK PITAA EKAS KE HUM BARAK TU MERA GUR HAEEE"

"The One God is our father; we are the children of the One God. You are our Guru."

Whoever we are whatever maryada we follow we've got to remember this line of Gurbani. All the different Sampardas and sections of Sikhi are all flowers from the same vase. Every flower has its own beautiful scent, its own different colour and its own different shape. But without even one of those flowers the vase would look incomplete....

Guru Kirpa Kare

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[Guest]

I have a questions to all the Udhasis scholars here. Please read the following.

This irreligious and immoral behavior of the Mahants gave birth to the Gurdwara Reform Movement. The intellectuals, the Sikh scholars, and the Sikh Sants supported the movement. They all got together to protest the anti Sikh and non Sikh rituals forced on them by the Mahants managing the Gurdwaras. For political reasons, the Government supported the Mahants in order to keep the Sikhs away from the control of the Gurdwaras. After enduring a long struggle and paying a heavy price in to form of blood and money, the Sikhs won control of their Gurdwaras in

1925.

When they say "Mahants" then is it for Udhasis? i'm confused on this matter because im pretty sure that sikh gurdwaras were in that situation at the time and absurd rituals were becoming part of sikhism. I would like to get feedback on this.

[Hari]

This irreligious and immoral behavior of the Mahants gave birth to the Gurdwara Reform Movement. The intellectuals, the Sikh scholars, and the Sikh Sants supported the movement. They all got together to protest the anti Sikh and non Sikh rituals forced on them by the Mahants managing the Gurdwaras. For political reasons, the Government supported the Mahants in order to keep the Sikhs away from the control of the Gurdwaras. After enduring a long struggle and paying a heavy price in to form of blood and money, the Sikhs won control of their Gurdwaras in

1925.

I am no scholar, but as far as I know, yes, the above article does refer to "Udasi" Mahant.Corrupt Udasi.I know the Gurdwara Reform Movement was started due to unfavourable practices of pakhandi corrupt Udasi Mahant.All that power I suppose, it got to their heads.

Pakhandi and corrupt people exist in all walks of life.That's the way it goes.All is under Vahiguru's Hukam.

Please correct me if I'm wrong about the above Mahant quote.I hope there's someone who can shed more light on that dark period.

[Guest]

The thing is that if the Udhasis turned into "Mahants" so do mainstream sikhs in this present situation. They are not reforming it but corrupting the Gurdwaras system. After reading all these debates I came to this conclusion that there should not be any human authority in sikh panth and Guru Gobind singh ji made right choice when he didn't choose next guru as human.

Dhan Guru Gobind Singh ji Maharaj! :bravo:

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

Just to clarify, the Udasis didn't turn into Mahants. Mahant simply means head of the institution. In all ashrams and deras you'll find a Mahant.

As a means for running an institution, I think it works very well if the Mahant is decent. For example, Mahant Tirath Singh of the Sewapanthis is a very decent bloke. This means that the institution is always pushing to do more and more sewa. There is no factionalism, in-fighting and corruption because the man is also assumed to be a highly spiritual person and all have great respect for him. Likewise for Sri Mahant Gian Dev Singh ji of the Nirmalae.

This is the same set up for other sampradavan derae, akharae and ashrams (I'm not sure if it's the same for Nihangs).

There then can be problems. I have been told of one case where the chelas murdered one Mahant to secure the wealth of the instution in question!

If it works, it works well. So personally, I see a need for a human authority as I've seen little evidence of a committee working effectively without falling prey to sore egos and factionalism.

Equally do remember that the Khalsa worked very well under one jathedar.

[Guest]

Great post jtsingh... Keep it up... it clears the doubts for me..

I let you guys discuss it and my point of not having human guru is different because if you see the history of any human leader within panth then you will see that at one point they have corrupted it and it turned into something else. You can expect good from one or two not from all and we all know that there was no other Jassa singh Ramgariya and Also Banda Singh Bhadhur after them....

Keep going and please don't take it offensive as I just express my views so im not against or in favour of anyone through this site. Our sole purpose is to learn AND learn...

[Narsingha]

"This is the same set up for other sampradavan derae, akharae and ashrams (I'm not sure if it's the same for Nihangs). "

-jtsingh

Within Nihang Singhs, there exist Jathedars (commanders) and 5 piyarey who are the sanctioning bodies within the Army. They exist in such positions by virtue of merit, experience (battle or otherwise), knowledge, sacrifice and respect of their peers.

[tSingh]

Gurfateh

Just re-read my post and realised I've slightly over-simplified it so I'll add more before lalleshvari opens a can of whoopass on me.

There is a distinction between Sri Mahant (head of the whole sampraday) and smaller Mahants in their respective institutions. The Sri Mahant resides in the HQ, the lesser Mahants in their usually historical ashrams/tikana/deras/akharas.

Each Mahant is capable of initiating people into the sampraday. In fact among Nirmalae, a Nirmala Sant can initiate others into the sampraday.

All Sewapanthis must be celibate, for Nirmalae they can be grishti, but mahants MUST be celibate (not always the case these days).

Each Mahant may have a different leaning within the sphere of the sampraday (e.g. sewapanthis who can vary between practical kar sewa style wale, to nirmala style scholars). This means that each akhara, ashram, dera often has it's own characteristics, practices and traditions - e.g. Dera Baba Jhanda ji in Jalandhar which specialises in Raag, Nirmala Kotia in Karnal which is reknowned for it's teaching of the Ramayan.

When a situation arises that cannot be resolved (e.g. who will become the next Mahant, etc), it is usually the role of the Sri Mahant to take over the situation and resolve it.

From what I know of Udasis, this is much the same with the Bada Udaseen Panchaiyti Akhara being HQ (although there used to be the Chota Panchaiti Akhara as well - don't know if it still exists).

[drawrof]

There was an udasi, who in the 1800's, had set up an an akhaara in st.petersburg, russia. This akhaara housed guru granth sahib and had maharaaj ki prakaash done there.

There was also an udasi named "triptkacharya" who had shared a story with the "sadhoo bela' sanstha's mukhi in hardiwar in 1976,

1) a bihari lady and her father in-law had approached the udasi to get a mantar. so he asked her to repeat "om thaths vithurvaraynya". She tried it once and then seemed adamant the second time. So then her father-inlaw had asked him to give her the "satinam" mantar... which was mool mantar. The udasi laughed and said, that no matter how much he tries to give the gaitree mantar, that the ladies in bihar and U.P. feel more resonance and feeling from guru nanak's mantar and that he has seen this happen time and time again, in each pind.

I have documented references in case someone wants them, feel free to privately message me

[Guest]

i was reading through ramkali ki var today and i came accross

sach j gur furamaaeiaa kio eaedhoo bolahu hatteeai ||

The Guru gave the True Command; why should we hesitate to proclaim this?

puthree koul n paaliou kar peerahu ka(n)nh muratteeai ||

His sons did not obey His Word; they turned their backs on Him as Guru.

dhil khottai aakee firanih ba(n)nih bhaar ouchaaeinih shhatteeai ||

These evil-hearted ones became rebellious; they carry loads of sin on their backs.

jin aakhee soee karae jin keethee thinai thhatteeai ||

Whatever the Guru said, Lehna did, and so he was installed on the throne

. SGGS 966

if as explained earlier in this thread that the whole throwing the pot into the mud is a made up story, can someone tell me what event/action does "puthree koul n paaliou kar peerahu ka(n)nh muratteeai" refer to?

thanks

[Guest]

It wasnt guroo nanak dev ji brother but his son.. baba sri chand maharaj ji...

Udahisis are very spirtual people. They do recitation of sggs sahib ji constantly day and night.. throughout..24/7.

Someone with more knowledge can enlighten all of us here with more info about them...

Guruship was never past 2 baba sri chand maharaj ji, because his son wasnt up 2 da job.

(I wrote dis b4 reading Iron Bangles post)

[Guest]

i was reading through ramkali ki var today and i came accross

. SGGS 966

if as explained earlier in this thread that the whole throwing the pot into the mud is a made up story, can someone tell me what event/action does "puthree koul n paaliou kar peerahu ka(n)nh muratteeai" refer to?

thanks

Can anyone explain this please???

Narsingha, jtsingh, lalleshvari or any educated sikhs...

i need to know that as well...

Thanks in advance...

[princess_sonia]

<<The Guru gave the True Command; why should we hesitate to proclaim this?

His sons did not obey His Word; they turned their backs on Him as Guru.

These evil-hearted ones became rebellious; they carry loads of sin on their backs.

Whatever the Guru said, Lehna did, and so he was installed on the throne>>

Hey man.. its written in English, yaar.... what dont you understand about it? Need dictionnary? hehehe.

[Niranjana]

Bhai Sahib, this is taking about Guruship (or Gur Gaddhi) for which Lehna was qualified possessing both requisite qualities.

To apply this to Udasis is taking it out of context, they are not part of the Gurus, simply have lineage from them, so let us apply these matters accordingly.