Spiritual Teachings Of The Avatar Movie

[SURYADEV]

Just read a few pages but seems an interesting book about the themes, sub-text, philosophies etc from the film AVATAR.

http://books.google....nepage&q&f=true

http://www.google.com

[SURYADEV]

cant seem to correct the link. Just search for SPIRITUAL TEACHINGS OF THE AVATAR in google books.

[HSD1]

Err, I dont think the guy knows what he's on about. Mid 20th century science fiction has always played with themes of guilt. Avatar is pretty much 'Dances with Wolves' in space. The noble white man feels guilt for what his people are doing, before going on to completely make up for it. The problem is our entire world is based on exploitation. It's not just the whites though, the Hindustanis will give them a run for their money in the future .

The thing is that most science fiction is written by white people who see other cultures through the lense of their upbringing. Sikhs like to 'big up' similarities between Jedis and Akalis but George Lucas is nothing more than a fraud. The Star Wars story was stolen from a Japanese film, The Hidden Fortress , and he was made to change parts of it to prevent being sued. Plenty of names are borrowed from South and East Asian cultures but these are nothing more than shallow attempts at exoticism. Even with such good source material, George Lucas eventually ruined Star Wars.

Whilst we are on the topic, I think Star Trek is a good example of why Sikhs should be wary of seeing things that dont exist in their adopted culture around them. In the Original Series, there is an episode called 'Space Seed' where the crew of the Enterprise come across a 21st century ship carrying a Sikh dictator who fought in World War 3. Even though the character of Khan Noonien Singh is human and shares a lot of characteristics with Kirk, he is still seen as 'the other'. Star Trek was written by white americans in the 1960s. As a result the show is pretty much heavy on NATO/American propaganda . Why is this important? Well, the writers are relatively sympathetic to the Sikh, they consider him as different but they genuinely admire him too. By the 1990s, Star Trek had new writers. One of them was a Indian Hindu. And it was at that time that the Klingons (originally meant to represent the Soviet Russians) began to take on 'Sikh' appearance. Long hair, sharp curved boots, a love of blades, a mythical hero called Kahless (Khalsa?) who used his sword to harvest his father's field etc etc. My point is that the indian writer presented them as what he (and most Indians) saw Sikhs as - violent, turbulent, over emotional farmers. Of course there is the coconut Worf, who reflects how others see the bluntness of Punjabis from the West. If you dont have anything better to do and can stomach bad acting you can watch the shows and see for yourself.

Sorry to derail your topic Suryadev, but I think Sikhs should be careful about how they see things.

Edited January 18, 2012 by HSD1

[dalsingh101]

violent, turbulent, over emotional farmers.

Yeah, but the truth is that we do have plenty of the above in our society.

[SURYADEV]

Sorry to derail your topic Suryadev, but I think Sikhs should be careful about how they see things.

I added some links, but they seem to be disabled, probably due to what new profiles have been posting. I'll add them at a later date.

not at all.

interesting response.

[HSD1]

I've added the links I could remember in my above post.

Yeah, but the truth is that we do have plenty of the above in our society.

So that's it then? Punjabi Sikh heritage summed up by 5 words? Punjab, the site of the world's first civilisation, with a city at Harappa that wouldnt be matched elsewhere for thousands of years. Sikhi, with Guru Nanak Dev Ji and the Sikh forerunners giving a philosophy that runs rings around the greeks, french, brits and german philosophers. Is that all for nothing? Are we to believe the fantasies of others? If I were to write a comic which portrayed Goreh as insidious, perverted, paranoid paedophiles, it wouldnt be long before other Sikhs would tell me off. The same would be true if I made films showing Hindus as spineless, sinister, two faced, superstitous fools. The parrallels between Sikhs and Klingons are demeaning.

Does anyone have the statistics of how much of the 24 million Sikh worlwide population are angry farmers? How does our percentage compare with other races?

[dalsingh101]

So that's it then? Punjabi Sikh heritage summed up by 5 words? Punjab, the site of the world's first civilisation, with a city at Harappa that wouldnt be matched elsewhere for thousands of years. Sikhi, with Guru Nanak Dev Ji and the Sikh forerunners giving a philosophy that runs rings around the greeks, french, brits and german philosophers. Is that all for nothing? Are we to believe the fantasies of others?

What about our own fantasies? Most of the 'angry peasants' believe they come from outside of Panjab anyways (Scythia, Ukraine or wherever else whiteys put in their heads) - and boy do they pride themselves on it. That is a significant plank of their ignorance towards other Panjabis, seeing themselves as conquering outsiders. Truth is that all of the great cultural things you speak about comes from ancient Indic society. The peasant masses don't imagine themselves to be a part of that heritage (hence the schizio behaviour to all things considered Hindoo).

If I were to write a comic which portrayed Goreh as insidious, perverted, paranoid paedophiles, it wouldnt be long before other Sikhs would tell me off. The same would be true if I made films showing Hindus as spineless, sinister, two faced, superstitous fools.

Well, we should ask why. By the way. Those Panjabi films in the 80s regularly portrayed Hindu money lenders as weak, sneaky conniving mofos...our people never said a peak about this. But I do get what you are saying. Why do our people not show the willful ignorance to outsiders as commonly demonstrated by others? Is it lack of confidence? Are we just plain 'too soft' ?

The parrallels between Sikhs and Klingons are demeaning.

I find the playing up to the stereotype of loyal docile Sikh sepoy and ass kissing Brit neo-imperial institutes at many UK SIngh Sabha Gurdwaras infinitely more demeaning - not to mention dangerous.

Does anyone have the statistics of how much of the 24 million Sikh worlwide population are angry farmers? How does our percentage compare with other races?

Over 60% of our community comes from farmer stock - giving us a strongly 'peasant flavour'.

Edited January 21, 2012 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

What about our own fantasies? Most of the 'angry peasants' believe they come from outside of Panjab anyways (Scythia, Ukraine or wherever else whiteys put in their heads) - and boy do they pride themselves on it.

I think you've taken the stereotype to the limits. Hardly any Sikhs pride themselves on ethnic background. The people proud of being 'Jatt' tend to be making up for things or arent entirely with it. To say that its common and even a national fantasy is silly. All young Sikhs have no idea of one another's caste. The older generations may be able to tell the difference from surname but most people cant. This self-deprecating nonsense only reinforces caste divide. Rather than moving away from it, you seem to want to swing the pendulum from one side to the other. Sikh Punjabis from Jatt backgrounds arent quite the bogeymen that some others wish they were. As for ancestry, I know a handful of Khatris who call Sikhi an 'Aryan religion' that has been ruined by Jatt 'Huns'. Is using German antropology any better than British anthropolgy? You know the answer. My personal opinion is that caste is all a load of b*ll*cks that can only be countered by moving away from it and cutting out those who cling onto caste, regardless of what caste they come from. Casteists will always be casteist.

That is a significant plank of their ignorance towards other Panjabis, seeing themselves as conquering outsiders. Truth is that all of the great cultural things you speak about comes from ancient Indic society. The peasant masses don't imagine themselves to be a part of that heritage (hence the schizio behaviour to all things considered Hindoo).

A few Sikhs believe we got here from other planets. Others believe other crap. No one goes and extrapolates that the entire Sikh nation believes these things. In Doaba there are some towns/villages who had a lot immigration from Gujerat and other parts of India roughly two centuries ago. Could anyone walk down a street there and be able tell what percentage of each person is Punjabi/non-Punjabi? Of course they couldnt, they are all Punjabis. Most Punjabi Sikhs welcome others genuinely interested in their culture.

As for Indic/Hindu stuff, the truth is that the HIndustanis have deliberately muddied the waters in recent centuries and Sikhs have been unable to cope with it. Punjabi/Indic heritage belongs to Sikhs as much as it belongs to any Hindu. In some cases it belongs more to us due to geographical/historical and cultural factors.

Well, we should ask why. By the way. Those Panjabi films in the 80s regularly portrayed Hindu money lenders as weak, sneaky conniving mofos...our people never said a peak about this. But I do get what you are saying. Why do our people not show the willful ignorance to outsiders as commonly demonstrated by others? Is it lack of confidence? Are we just plain 'too soft' ?

Considering how emotional Sikhs are meant to be and the real world events that were taking place in the 1980s, I'm surprised the movie directors were so lenient.

As for our perception of others, I think old school Punjabi tact and reserve has been replaced by wilful ignorance. We want to see the world full of rainbows and human love, full of opportunity and equality. That's why Sikhs in some countries are so oblivious to what is going on around them. Add to that the fact we cant win at things like wars or forming institutions its not surprising that Sikhs want to get out of Punjab as they convince themselves that there is an 'easy' option and that money brings security. Most of this I link back to the idea of the Khalsa ruling the world and the horrors of Partition.

I find the playing up to the stereotype of loyal docile Sikh sepoy and ass kissing Brit neo-imperial institutes at many UK SIngh Sabha Gurdwaras infinitely more demeaning - not to mention dangerous.

I'm sure we all have a heirarchy of of issues the Sikh nation faces. Who's list do we follow? Decisions, decisions. A few Sikh soldiers handing out leaflets in Southall gurudwara isnt going to change anything. There are less than 100 Sikhs in the British army and not all of them fit the stereotype of the rectum dwelling parasites. It's a bit laughable for Sikhs to call themselves martial when they dont know the basics of war. The future is in removing the swords from our backs and facing external pressures. There will never be some pinnacle of social cohesion that will allow us to move from internal focus to external. It's more a case of sidelining the troublemakers and defeatists/backstabbers than jumping into the gutter and rolling around with them.

As for the Klingons, look at the articles on Niddar Singh on newspaper websites comments' sections. An awful lot of mentions of Klingons. If you look at that link I gave earlier, people need to bare in mind how cultural references have sinister tones. Seeing as so many people on this forum bring up 'Orientalism' by Edward Said, I'm surprised no one picked up on it sooner.

Over 60% of our community comes from farmer stock - giving us a strongly 'peasant flavour'.

So regardless of what a Sikh from a Jatt background does, they are to be considered as 'peasants'? Like I said before, the younger generation dont fall for this pendulum swinging. Saying this along with talk of 'rape genes' puts you in the same stable as those Jatts you like to go on about. If you old bigots want to run around slapping each other's bottoms then you can, but dont expect everyone to imitate.

Edited January 22, 2012 by HSD1

[dalsingh101]

I think you've taken the stereotype to the limits. Hardly any Sikhs pride themselves on ethnic background. The people proud of being 'Jatt' tend to be making up for things or arent entirely with it. To say that its common and even a national fantasy is silly. All young Sikhs have no idea of one another's caste. The older generations may be able to tell the difference from surname but most people cant.

I think you are either ignorant of the truth here or in plain denial. Seriously, not being able to speak Panjabi would take you out of the loop with a lot of stuff that goes on in the community, so I'm not surprised your view is skewed here.

This self-deprecating nonsense only reinforces caste divide. Rather than moving away from it, you seem to want to swing the pendulum from one side to the other. Sikh Punjabis from Jatt backgrounds arent quite the bogeymen that some others wish they were. As for ancestry, I know a handful of Khatris who call Sikhi an 'Aryan religion' that has been ruined by Jatt 'Huns'. Is using German antropology any better than British anthropolgy? You know the answer

And this isn't a point? Forget anthropology, having a peasant society that vehemently rejects egalitarian principles towards other Panjabis has an enormously negative effect on the panth.

. My personal opinion is that caste is all a load of b*ll*cks that can only be countered by moving away from it and cutting out those who cling onto caste, regardless of what caste they come from. Casteists will always be casteist.

What you don't get is that within the Sikh quom we have a big section of farmer types who are hell bent of creating, solidifying and perpetuating a hierarchical setup with themselves at the top. In short a similar situation to what Brahmins pulled off in the past. You seem to be in straight denial about this.

A few Sikhs believe we got here from other planets. Others believe other crap. No one goes and extrapolates that the entire Sikh nation believes these things.

Ignorance again. If you could read Panjabi, you'd see that the Aryan/Scythian theories permeate post annexation Sikh literature. This was done because teh Singh Sabha lehar took those ideas on. Hell, the other day I was reading an A Level Panjabi book from The SIkh Missionary Society and there it was again, in teh section about Panjabi history. What you need to realise is that our people are one of the few mofos who still haven't thought their way out of the orientalist boxes they were put in. The ideas permeate our literature still and the imagination of many of our people. Hell, even Gurdwaras are divided along these lines. Thing is, normally you are so perceptive about such things but here you seem to stumble around totally in the dark. Maybe willful ignorance due to dissonace? (I'm not trying to insult you here by the way, so don't read it like that - truth is, when our own community behaves poorly, we often go into denial about it).

As for Indic/Hindu stuff, the truth is that the HIndustanis have deliberately muddied the waters in recent centuries and Sikhs have been unable to cope with it. Punjabi/Indic heritage belongs to Sikhs as much as it belongs to any Hindu. In some cases it belongs more to us due to geographical/historical and cultural factors.

I agree but try and tell that to the many morons (mostly Jatt) who've developed some sort of extreme allergy to all things 'Hindoo' which is plainly the result of colonial policy and ideas such as 'Martial races' and whatnot. Okay, so under pressure to deal with proportional representation and keep some power as a minority, our recent forefathers blindly took on (what they then perceived to be) flattering stereotypes. Which also involved rigorous moves to distance themselves from all things Hindu. That pendulum has swung to its apex now, and those of us who have taken time to study now realise that all the putting down of Hindus by the wasps as degenerate, lowly, mofos isn't truth. Anyway, get the picture right, those grand astrological, literature, linguistic achievements of ancient India were done by the dreaded Brahmins.

Considering how emotional Sikhs are meant to be and the real world events that were taking place in the 1980s, I'm surprised the movie directors were so lenient.

Well maybe it was just small potatoes in some embarrassingly dirty and backward 3rd world nation which had no importance then? I grew up in it, at ground level, whitey didn't want to know about the Sikh cause - if anything they seemed to be chuffed with our downfall.

I'm sure we all have a heirarchy of of issues the Sikh nation faces. Who's list do we follow? Decisions, decisions. A few Sikh soldiers handing out leaflets in Southall gurudwara isnt going to change anything. There are less than 100 Sikhs in the British army and not all of them fit the stereotype of the rectum dwelling parasites.

You see, now open your eyes. You're crying about the that klingon shit, but think about it. The federation is 'western society' (or in this case the British) who are exploring the universe (read world) and encountering all sorts of adventures and people (including exotically coloured sexy female aliens.....)

They encounter some fierce group who resist them hard, but then capitulate and then join the federation (AngloSikh wars, the annexation and events at the Indian mutiny). So now the federation has these strong, fierce klingons - who don't mind a tear up with sharp weapons) integrated into their society. These klingons then go on to play significant roles in the battles of the federation as 'stalwarts'. That klingon thing is how they see you. And the image is not one conjured out of thin air, it's based on their experiences.

It's a bit laughable for Sikhs to call themselves martial when they dont know the basics of war. The future is in removing the swords from our backs and facing external pressures. There will never be some pinnacle of social cohesion that will allow us to move from internal focus to external. It's more a case of sidelining the troublemakers and defeatists/backstabbers than jumping into the gutter and rolling around with them.

That's your misreading of the situation. Those anti egalitarian greedy casteists form a big majority in our society. The most important fight now is going to be internal, especially between progressive farmers and backward arse snide ones. Pick a side.

As for the Klingons, look at the articles on Niddar Singh on newspaper websites comments' sections. An awful lot of mentions of Klingons. If you look at that link I gave earlier, people need to bare in mind how cultural references have sinister tones. Seeing as so many people on this forum bring up 'Orientalism' by Edward Said, I'm surprised no one picked up on it sooner.

See what I said earlier about how and why they perceive us this way.

So regardless of what a Sikh from a Jatt background does, they are to be considered as 'peasants'? Like I said before, the younger generation dont fall for this pendulum swinging. Saying this along with talk of 'rape genes' puts you in the same stable as those Jatts you like to go on about. If you old bigots want to run around slapping each other's bottoms then you can, but dont expect everyone to imitate.

You're going to feel pain when [if?] you see the real state of the community, but it's only after this - when you grasp the ugly reality, that we might get some good use out of that remarkable brain of yours in terms of plans. I hope you wake up soon. You can't keep ignoring the dirt peasants are doing anymore, the way Ravidasias have walked out on that crap en mass should be a wake up call. And if you don't want to speak up for the people who peasants are trying to squash, so be it, but don't try and belittle my attempts to shine light on this majorly important issue please.

Edited January 26, 2012 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

I think you are either ignorant of the truth here or in plain denial. Seriously, not being able to speak Panjabi would take you out of teh loop with a lot of stuff that goes on in the community, so I'm not surprised your view is skewed here.

Most Sikhs under 29 I know cant read or write Punjabi. None are fluent in Punjabi and it doesnt matter if they are jatt/chamar/ramgarhia they all seem to be bad at it. Never knew I was in the minority.

And this isn't a point? Forget anthropology, being a peasant society that is vehemently rejects egalitarian principles towards other Panjabis has an enormously negative effect on the panth.

That's the thing. It's similar to isssues Sikhs face with the working class in the UK. If people want to be rural, they will always be rural. Cut them out, push them back, and move higher. If jatts are such idiots, what is stopping other caste Sikhs moving forward and leaving them behind?

What you don't get is that within the Sikh quom we have a big section of farmer types who are hell bent of creating, solidifying and perpetuating a hierarchical setup with themselves at the top. In short a similar situation to what Brahmins pulled off in the past. You seem to be in straight denial about this.

But where are they doing this? In Gurudwaras they are already divided along caste lines so its more a case of old -v- young. In East Punjab no one seems to be having a good life unless they work for the government.

Ignorance again. If you could read Panjabi, you'd see that the Aryan/Scythian theories permeate post annexation Sikh literature. This was done because teh Singh Sabha lehar took those ideas on. Hell, the other day I was reading an A Level Panjabi book from The SIkh Missionary Society and there it was again, in teh section about Panjabi history. What you need to realise is that our people are one of the few mofos who still haven't thought their way out of the orientalist boxes they were put in. The ideas permeate our literature still and the imagination of many of our people. Hell, even Gurdwaras are divided along these lines. Thing is, normally you are so perceptive about such things but here you seem to stumble around totally in the dark. Maybe willful ignorance due to dissonace? (I'm not trying to insult you here by the way, so don't read it like that - truth is, when our own community behaves poorly, we often go into denial about it).

I'll admit I havent read any of the Singh Sabha stuff as I've heard a lot if it is straight up b*ll*cks with people back then trying to convince Sikhs that the ultmate victory of the Khalsa was tied to the destiny of the British Empire. I also havent got the Alevel Punjabi book you've got.

What Sikhs have to bare in mind is that when you lose, the winner dictates your history. When the British came to the Punjab, the Sikh Empire was the pride of Asia. We could match them bullet for bullet, bayonet for bayonet, cannon for cannon. They didnt like it, so rather than admit than an Asian nation could match a white one in war, they came up with a race theory. The Sikhs were a Germanic offshoot - they were the Prussians of India. This made sense for them in their race theories. Sikhs had a choice in front of them. Their Empire wasnt invincible. Either they could all rush the British and die or sink away into mediocrity. The British offered us a way out - they repackaged the 'Khalsa uber alles' idea as part of their own destiny. It allowed SIkhs to survive, it made our defeat seem as something predestined to happen rather than the catastrophe it was, and the promise of having our Empire restored to us once the British left was better than nothing. Race theories are obsolete. The SIkhs didnt side with the British because of something in our antropology but because, in their minds, it was the best option. It's almost like economic game theory.

In the 1940s if the Axis won, do you think these race theories would still be believed? Kind of. If Punjab was in the hands of the Germans, our religous leaders, scholars etc would have bigged up our 'Aryan ancestry' and not mentioned the Scythian stuff as being Aryan would get them further. If Punjab ended up in the hands of the Japanese, our lot would have bigged themselves as Asians and done everything to get in line with the new masters. But the Axis didnt win. America did. Look at Sikhs today and how they are culturally very American and adopt american principles. And why not? There have been no Komagata Marus in the last 60 years. American rule over earth has been better for us than British rule. In India (not really in America's sphere of influence) Sikhs are still part of the old colonial Commonwealth system. They are culturally a lot like the Sikhs who grew up in the Raj. Many of them are becoming increasing Hindu too, believing we were set up to save their asses and that we are the guard dogs of India.

The small planet will always fall into the gravity of bigger stars. We Sikhs, without our own sovereign political/military/economic/religous/scientific power, will always believe what others tell us. Regardless of whether they are actually true or if we even honestly care about the implcations.

I agree but try and tell that to the many morons (mostly Jatt) who've developed some sort of extreme allergy to all things 'Hindoo' which is plainly the result of colonial policy and ideas such as 'Martial races' and whatnot. Okay, so under pressure to deal with proportional representation and keep some power as a minority, our recent forefathers blindly took on (what they then perceived to be) flattering stereotypes. Which also involved rigorous moves to distance themselves from all things Hindu. That pendulum has swung to its apex now, and those of us who have taken time to study now realise that all the putting down of Hindus by the wasps as degenerate, lowly, mofos isn't truth. Anyway, get the picture right, those grand astrological, literature, linguistic achievements of ancient India were done by the dreaded Brahmins.

Sikhs seem to think they can win anything by running away, hiding and then taking potshots at what they dont like. It never works.

Quite a lot of India/Punjab's achievements were done pre-Hindu and pre-Brahmin. If anything the Brahmins hijacked and stifled what ever India had going for it.

Well maybe it was just small potatoes in some embarrassingly dirty and backward 3rd world nation which had no importance then? I grew up in it, at ground level, whitey didn't want to know about the Sikh cause - if anything they seemed to be chuffed with our downfall.

White people seem to learn their history down the pub. They hate being proved wrong.

As for the 80s, the only cultural reference I have seen to it is American Psycho, where Christian Bale says he doesnt care about 'Sikhs killing Jews or whatever'. The deliberate attempt at ignorantly mixing two stories was meant to show how little he cared for either story.

For the British, they pride themselves at having turned India in to one big nation. The biggest humiliation to that historical myth would be for India to break up along the same lines that it did after the collapse of the Mughal Empire and still achieve greatness. That's why Sikhs are labelled as sectarian/evil seperatists by them. Just look at how the Russian/German/Japanese and even French bogeyman appears in their view of other cultures and how news stories are reported, even if the threat doesnt exist. They may not act like it but many of their elites know a lot about the Anglo-Sikh wars and what a threat we once were.

You see, now open your eyes. You're crying about the that klingon shit, but think about it. The federation is 'western society' (or in this case the British) who are exploring the universe (read world) and encountering all sorts of adventures and people (including exotically coloured sexy female aliens.....)

They encounter some fierce group who resist them hard, but then capitulate and then join the federation (AngloSikh wars, the annexation and events at the Indian mutiny). So now the federation has these strong, fierce klingons - who don't mind a tear up with sharp weapons) integrated into their society. These klingons then go on to play significant roles in the battles of the federation as 'stalwarts'. That klingon thing is how they see you. And the image is not one conjured out of thin air, it's based on their experiences.

You have to admit that it is useful that Sikhs have military knowledge, martial arts only gets you so far. It's also not a sin for us to involve a bit of divide and rule against the locals either.

That's your misreading of the situation. Those anti egalitarian greedy casteists form a big majority in our society. The most important fight now is going to be internal, especially between progressive farmers and backward arse snide ones. Pick a side.

They form a big part because we havent evolved past them. Sikhs need to stop farming. Those who want land to farm should farm. Those who dont should sell it (not rent it) and use the money for business ventures or educating their kids. Punjab needs to industrialise. Look at history. Everyone faced rural issues and they overcame them with industrialisation. It creates change, sidelines the feudal land lords, creates money and opportunity for those willing to work and in a few generations leads to more egalitarian societies. If you want asian examples, look at Japan or Taiwan. Sikhs just dont have that hunger for success and glory against outsiders anymore, they would rather pick internal fights in a race to the bottom.

What you suggest doesnt make sense. How is the fight going to happen? Religously? Because the religous institutions are run by old fudus regardless of the gurudwaras castes. Politically? Militarily? Economically? Whoever wins is going to be so weak they wont resist external pressure.

See what I said earlier about how and why they perceive us this way.

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

They perceive us this way as we are different and they love to use caricatures.

You're going to feel pain when [if?] you see the real state of the community, but it's only after this - when you grasp the ugly reality, that we might get some good use out of that remarkable brain of yours in terms of plans. I hope you wake up soon. You can't keep ignoring the dirt peasants are doing anymore, the way Ravidasias have walked out on that crap en mass should be a wake up call. And if you don't want to speak up for the people who peasants are trying to squash, so be it, but don't try and belittle my attempts to shine light on this majorly important issue please.

I'm just some random idiot who'll probably do something stupid and get my just desserts as a result. You should worry about the majority. If you want people to change you need to tell them what is going on out there. Why are there not more videos out of what is going on? Why is the Ravidassia issue presented as a religous issue rather than a caste one? You cant expect people to change as we are not telepathic. We dont see into each other''s heads. If someone dies, they take their knowledge and beliefs with them as our community has no way of recording it. Saying caste is a problem without showing us why wont change anything apart from sounding like your whining. No Sikhs can call themselves free or equal if another member of their community cannot share in the same freedom and equality. But you cant blame them if they dont know. In the west caste issues never seem to be more sinister than banter. Plenty of young Sikhs make jokes about drinking, grinning jatts or over starched ramgarhias to each other but there is no venom or hate behind it. White racists on the other hand are incredibly sinister as many of you know. As for what happens in Punjab, there are numerous forces who make too much profit from the way Punjab is. This wont change until some seriously bad things come about.

Edited January 26, 2012 by HSD1

[dalsingh101]

Have to go home. Am taking that last post home to read HSD.

As a a parting point - you once said that, as a people, we are doing so much dumb shite ourselves that we need people to just point it all out, unapologetically and call people on it without compromise. It was a good idea then, and it is a good idea now.

People will stop seeing us as klingons, when we stop playing up to this loyal, docile shite that especially permeates the peasant Sikhs in their relationship with the British. Truth is that we are easily manipulated by them, are credulous and have gone along with their hair brain schemes for a long time during our colonised period. The embarrassing truth is that whitey feels comfortable with us because we are perceived to be docile compared to others - I believe the mutiny had a lot to do with that and the loyalty during the world wars.

Even when some brothers bravely tried to resist white occupation during this period (like say the Ghaddars in the Lahore conspiracy case) they seem to have learned that our lot are so slow and disunited that any scheme can be seen a mile off and is quickly thwarted - especially given that we have so many ambitious traitors amongst us. Afghans will never be seen as klingons because they are fiercely independent and no joke. Our people play the role of loyal puppet so well it's almost become a calling card. When we stop acting like klingons - people will stop imagining us in that way.

Edited January 29, 2012 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

Most Sikhs under 29 I know cant read or write Punjabi. None are fluent in Punjabi and it doesnt matter if they are jatt/chamar/ramgarhia they all seem to be bad at it. Never knew I was in the minority.

This is just laziness on an individual basis. My brother's (2nd gen) Panjabi is terrible. Mine is what it is through sustained effort - very little of which was encouraged. Admittedly, traditional Panjabi teaching methods generally suck but the apathy on the part of young Panjabis is equally at fault. What is stopping youngsters making effort now? Other than laziness?

That's the thing. It's similar to isssues Sikhs face with the working class in the UK. If people want to be rural, they will always be rural. Cut them out, push them back, and move higher. If jatts are such idiots, what is stopping other caste Sikhs moving forward and leaving them behind?

Well, nonpeasant Sikhs don't seem to be any less well of then their peasant counterparts in the diaspora. That being said, all you seem to be doing is excusing the lowly actions of lumpen sections of the community with their regressive insularity.

But where are they doing this? In Gurudwaras they are already divided along caste lines so its more a case of old -v- young. In East Punjab no one seems to be having a good life unless they work for the government.

The Gurdwara splits are at least partially down to nonpeasants side stepping peasant dominance, with the result of a disproportionate amount of community wide contributions ending up circulating amongst specific hegemonies. Plus plenty of people are living the good life back home, my own cousins live better there than we do here. The SGPC which ties and controls a lot of community funds back home is an example of a peasant dominated institute. Wake up.

I'll admit I havent read any of the Singh Sabha stuff as I've heard a lot if it is straight up b*ll*cks with people back then trying to convince Sikhs that the ultmate victory of the Khalsa was tied to the destiny of the British Empire. I also havent got the Alevel Punjabi book you've got.

Look, it is REALLY important that you get a better grip of the Singh Sabha lehar than the lazy characterisation demonstrated above. The movement has strengths and weaknesses. personally I see it as the first steps towards a formalised, systematic elaboration of Sikhi, albeit stimulated by a western incursion. The people behind it were clearly influenced by Victorian Protestant values and many of us (well for one) question political decisions made by the group especially in relation to a generally very 'proBritish' stance - even in the face of other brave Panjabis resisting the occupation. A lot of good (and bad) literature was produced during this period (Nabha's work, Prof. Sahib Singhs etc.) and what constitutes 'orthodox Sikhi' today largely stems from this period. General trends like developing arguments logically and using references to sources in literature was pioneered by the movement. It also kicked of a Panjabi language renaissance. But we can see a lot of very very subtle and dubious things with the ideas that were transfered from whitey into Sikh thought/literature today. So be careful. It's a big topic and not a black and white one.

Edited January 29, 2012 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

What Sikhs have to bare in mind is that when you lose, the winner dictates your history. When the British came to the Punjab, the Sikh Empire was the pride of Asia. We could match them bullet for bullet, bayonet for bayonet, cannon for cannon. They didnt like it, so rather than admit than an Asian nation could match a white one in war, they came up with a race theory. The Sikhs were a Germanic offshoot - they were the Prussians of India. This made sense for them in their race theories. Sikhs had a choice in front of them. Their Empire wasnt invincible. <u>Either they could all rush the British and die or sink away into mediocrity</u>.

Bollocks to your analysis. Like that was the only option available to Sikhs. They could have undertook a guerrilla war for example, like Afghans probably would have under those circumstances. Like their own recent forefathers did against the Moghuls/Persians/Afghans.

The British offered us a way out - they repackaged the 'Khalsa uber alles' idea as part of their own destiny. It allowed SIkhs to survive, it made our defeat seem as something predestined to happen rather than the catastrophe it was, and the promise of having our Empire restored to us once the British left was better than nothing. Race theories are obsolete. The SIkhs didnt side with the British because of something in our antropology but because, in their minds, it was the best option. It's almost like economic game theory.

That's what you don't realise. The Brits might have gone, but the legacy of their theories remains in the minds of many apnay, most specifically the Sikh peasants. This needs to be counteracted upon now - BY FARMERS TO FARMERS. Do your bit.

In the 1940s if the Axis won, do you think these race theories would still be believed? Kind of. If Punjab was in the hands of the Germans, our religous leaders, scholars etc would have bigged up our 'Aryan ancestry' and not mentioned the Scythian stuff as being Aryan would get them further. If Punjab ended up in the hands of the Japanese, our lot would have bigged themselves as Asians and done everything to get in line with the new masters. But the Axis didnt win. America did. Look at Sikhs today and how they are culturally very American and adopt american principles. And why not? There have been no Komagata Marus in the last 60 years. American rule over earth has been better for us than British rule. In India (not really in America's sphere of influence) Sikhs are still part of the old colonial Commonwealth system. They are culturally a lot like the Sikhs who grew up in the Raj. Many of them are becoming increasing Hindu too, believing we were set up to save their asses and that we are the guard dogs of India.

So why do we have the big hoo ha with considering ourselves Hindu guard dogs in comparison with the idea of our being island monkey attack dogs today?

I'm no Hinduphile, but we have more in common with other Indians than Europeans. Our lot seem to run away from this fact.

The small planet will always fall into the gravity of bigger stars. We Sikhs, without our own sovereign political/military/economic/religous/scientific power, will always believe what others tell us. Regardless of whether they are actually true or if we even honestly care about the implcations.

Bollocks again. If Jews can wonder around homeless for God knows how long and still retain their distinction and a degree of cultural and economic power - why can't we? Maybe because we are dominated by a small minded peasantry perhaps?

Quite a lot of India/Punjab's achievements were done pre-Hindu and pre-Brahmin. If anything the Brahmins hijacked and stifled what ever India had going for it.

Now you are rewriting history like an ignoramus. Those Rishies that wrote the great Indic tomes were Brahmin, you think some Jattboot fudu is capable of such things. Don't make me laugh. You are doing exactly what whitey did with the Aryan stuff now, and trying to appropriate it. Don't be so sad and pathetic.

You have to admit that it is useful that Sikhs have military knowledge, martial arts only gets you so far. It's also not a sin for us to involve a bit of divide and rule against the locals either.

Well, that would only be possible if certain Sikh sub communities extract their tongue from whiteys nether regions. Instead, we are the ones who get played and divided. Sikh Panjabis against the sullay ones, Scythian Jatts against 'Indians' etc. etc. You need to look closer to home for the truth.

They form a big part because we havent evolved past them. Sikhs need to stop farming. Those who want land to farm should farm. Those who dont should sell it (not rent it) and use the money for business ventures or educating their kids. Punjab needs to industrialise. Look at history. Everyone faced rural issues and they overcame them with industrialisation. It creates change, sidelines the feudal land lords, creates money and opportunity for those willing to work and in a few generations leads to more egalitarian societies. If you want asian examples, look at Japan or Taiwan. Sikhs just dont have that hunger for success and glory against outsiders anymore, they would rather pick internal fights in a race to the bottom.

There is strong chance the peasants will just try to monopolise whatever new economy emerges in any case. What needs to happen is that certain negative, backwards cultural trends need to be knocked on the head by the peasant community. There is no getting away from this.

What you suggest doesnt make sense. How is the fight going to happen? Religously? Because the religous institutions are run by old fudus regardless of the gurudwaras castes. Politically? Militarily? Economically? Whoever wins is going to be so weak they wont resist external pressure.

We are simply going to have to go through this and build up with whatever we finish with at the end. If you ask me we are already down that path.

I'm just some random idiot who'll probably do something stupid and get my just desserts as a result. You should worry about the majority. If you want people to change you need to tell them what is going on out there. Why are there not more videos out of what is going on? Why is the Ravidassia issue presented as a religous issue rather than a caste one? You cant expect people to change as we are not telepathic. We dont see into each other''s heads. If someone dies, they take their knowledge and beliefs with them as our community has no way of recording it. Saying caste is a problem without showing us why wont change anything apart from sounding like your whining. No Sikhs can call themselves free or equal if another member of their community cannot share in the same freedom and equality. But you cant blame them if they dont know. In the west caste issues never seem to be more sinister than banter. Plenty of young Sikhs make jokes about drinking, grinning jatts or over starched ramgarhias to each other but there is no venom or hate behind it. White racists on the other hand are incredibly sinister as many of you know. As for what happens in Punjab, there are numerous forces who make too much profit from the way Punjab is. This wont change until some seriously bad things come about.

Look, we have to protect the vulnerable in our society from the predatory. Jatt society is at a cross roads nows. We can't push for the Sikh equivalent of a meritocratic American dream dominated by people whose whole ethos and culture rejects the notion of egalitarianism with peope outside their ranks. You know this is pretty much common sense. We should feel ashamed that the house of the gareeb niwaaz (which means the the cherisher of the poor) has alienated so many people, for so long that they have voted with their feet. Jatts would try and portray this along religious lines, just like whites like to blame ethnic men for the racism that befalls them from that quarter. My estimation of your intelligence and your supposed belief in a fair Sikh society has plummeted by the way - if you can't see through peasant bullshit like this - what perceptive ability do you really have?

Edited January 29, 2012 by dalsingh101

[HSD1]

Have to go home. Am taking that last post home to read HSD.

As a a parting point - you once said that, as a people, we are doing so much dumb shite ourselves that we need people to just point it all out, unapologetically and call people on it without compromise. It was a good idea then, and it is a good idea now.

People will stop seeing us as klingons, when we stop playing up to this loyal, docile shite that especially permeates the peasant Sikhs in their relationship with the British. Truth is that we are easily manipulated by them, are credulous and have gone along with their hair brain schemes for a long time during our colonised period. The embarrassing truth is that whitey feels comfortable with us because we are perceived to be docile compared to others - I believe the mutiny had a lot to do with that and the loyalty during the world wars.

Even when some brothers bravely tried to resist white occupation during this period (like say the Ghaddars in the Lahore conspiracy case) they seem to have learned that our lot are so slow and disunited that any scheme can be seen a mile off and is quickly thwarted - especially given that we have so many ambitious traitors amongst us. Afghans will never be seen as klingons because they are fiercely independent and no joke. Our people play the role of loyal puppet so well it's almost become a calling card. When we stop acting like klingons - people will stop imagining us in that way.

If you actually read what I typed, you'd see I was pointing out that Sikhs shouldnt see things that dont exist in their adopted community. I care little if Sikhs are called Klingons by Indians or Whites, especially as both those groups use science fiction as a way of describing outsiders. If we didnt want to be called 'Klingons' we would have to actually become more like the people who produce these shows. The fact you dont even understand that is striking.

Edited January 29, 2012 by HSD1

[HSD1]

This is just laziness on an individual basis. My brother's (2nd gen) Panjabi is terrible. Mine is what it is through sustained effort - very little of which was encouraged. Admittedly, traditional Panjabi teaching methods generally suck but the apathy on the part of young Panjabis is equally at fault. What is stopping youngsters making effort now? Other than laziness?

Bad teaching combined with no real use for the language. If everything wasnt translated anyway and there was an abundance of Punjabi novels and films that people wanted to understand, then it would change.

Well, nonpeasant Sikhs don't seem to be any less well of then their peasant counterparts in the diaspora.

That being said, all you seem to be doing is excusing the lowly actions of lumpen sections of the community with their regressive insularity.

Exactly. So no 'Jatt' problems must exist in these non-'Jatt' communities in the diaspora then?

How am I excusing anything? Where have I done that? You seem to see what you want to see, whether it exists or not.

The Gurdwara splits are at least partially down to nonpeasants side stepping peasant dominance, with the result of a disproportionate amount of community wide contributions ending up circulating amongst specific hegemonies. Plus plenty of people are living the good life back home, my own cousins live better there than we do here. The SGPC which ties and controls a lot of community funds back home is an example of a peasant dominated institute. Wake up.

I'm glad the non-'Jatts' have it so good. If you have overcome these issues, please tell the rest of the community how it was done.

As for the SGPC, to say it is all down to caste and downplay the politics is ludicrous. Go get some non-'Jatts', take over the SGPC and do something useful with it then.

Look, it is REALLY important that you get a better grip of the Singh Sabha lehar than the lazy characterisation demonstrated above. The movement has strengths and weaknesses. personally I see it as the first steps towards a formalised, systematic elaboration of Sikhi, albeit stimulated by a western incursion. The people behind it were clearly influenced by Victorian Protestant values and many of us (well for one) question political decisions made by the group especially in relation to a generally very 'proBritish' stance - even in the face of other brave Panjabis resisting the occupation. A lot of good (and bad) literature was produced during this period (Nabha's work, Prof. Sahib Singhs etc.) and what constitutes 'orthodox Sikhi' today largely stems from this period. General trends like developing arguments logically and using references to sources in literature was pioneered by the movement. It also kicked of a Panjabi language renaissance. But we can see a lot of very very subtle and dubious things with the ideas that were transfered from whitey into Sikh thought/literature today. So be careful. It's a big topic and not a black and white one.

You found an article a while ago from a Pakistani paper about how the British destroyed or confiscated large amounts of literature after colonisation whilst destroying the education system in Punjab. Then you moan that no one wrote things pre-1849. It doesnt take a genius to figure out what happened to most of what was written.

As for Singh Sabha, who gives a shit? Who reads their stuff? The supposedly illiterate and stupid Jatt? The less than 0.1% of the Sikh race who have registered on Sikh Sangat? If you say 'Singh Sabha', most Sikh people think of Gurudwaras and thats it.

[HSD1]

Bollocks to your analysis. Like that was the only option available to Sikhs. They could have undertook a guerrilla war for example, like Afghans probably would have under those circumstances. Like their own recent forefathers did against the Moghuls/Persians/Afghans.

We've been over this a million times. I've proved this point wrong so many times on here and Sikh Sangat, your blockheadedness is becoming a joke. The Sikhs lost two major wars. In the Battle of Sobraon, Sikhs lost 8,000-10,000 men and their equipment. Do the maths - in today's world that would be like a Sikh army losing 250,000 - 300,000 men! Of course, according to you they could easily be replaced. And where would the equipment come from? Pray to God and let it fall from the skies? Because that's the best you could have hoped for with the British dismantling all the manufactories and foundries.

Plenty of races initiated guerilla wars with the British. Plenty of them got wiped off the face of the Earth. Name one race who were colonised by the English, after the invention of the gun, and then fought them back and kicked them out.

And if guerilla campaigns are so God-ordained, why did the Sikhs lose to the Indian government in the 80s? Could it be, maybe just maybe, that warfare changes over time?

That's what you don't realise. The Brits might have gone, but the legacy of their theories remains in the minds of many apnay, most specifically the Sikh peasants. This needs to be counteracted upon now - BY FARMERS TO FARMERS. Do your bit.

I'm not a farmer.

So why do we have the big hoo ha with considering ourselves Hindu guard dogs in comparison with the idea of our being island monkey attack dogs today?

There is no big hooha. Some people whinge about Sikhs in the Indian army due to the stuff that happened post-Partition. Some people whinge about Sikhs in the British army due to 1846-1947. Either way most Sikhs couldnt give a shit.

I'm no Hinduphile, but we have more in common with other Indians than Europeans. Our lot seem to run away from this fact.

Apart from the 24 million Sikhs in India who havent run anywhere.

Bollocks again. If Jews can wonder around homeless for God knows how long and still retain their distinction and a degree of cultural and economic power - why can't we? Maybe because we are dominated by a small minded peasantry perhaps?

Yeah but they havent. Do you honestly think the Jews of today are anything like they were 2000 years ago? This article shows how Jews have difficulty understanding their own traditions: http://www.sikhchic.com/article-detail.php?cat=26&id=3057

Add to that the problems Jews in India/South East Asia have had convincing those in Israel of their lineage.

As for ourselves, there are plenty of well off and successful SIkhs. The reason they dont work together is because they have nothing to work towards and are put off by self defeating facetious idiots in their own group who push them towards outsiders.

Now you are rewriting history like an ignoramus. Those Rishies that wrote the great Indic tomes were Brahmin, you think some Jattboot fudu is capable of such things. Don't make me laugh. You are doing exactly what whitey did with the Aryan stuff now, and trying to appropriate it. Don't be so sad and pathetic.

Seeing as you're rude like a child, I'll point you towards a source suited to your age: http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/primaryhistory/indus_valley/

Well, that would only be possible if certain Sikh sub communities extract their tongue from whiteys nether regions. Instead, we are the ones who get played and divided. Sikh Panjabis against the sullay ones, Scythian Jatts against 'Indians' etc. etc. You need to look closer to home for the truth.

Suryadev can recommend you some sites for your 'fetish'.

As for being divided, anyone can be divided if the things that unite them are eroded. In some cases its just plain fear. We dont want to contemplate what would happen if we outlived our usefulness. Look what happened in the 80s when Sikhs threatened to stop food exports to the rest of India.

There is strong chance the peasants will just try to monopolise whatever new economy emerges in any case. What needs to happen is that certain negative, backwards cultural trends need to be knocked on the head by the peasant community. There is no getting away from this.

And fit in time to dance in fields, lick white backsides and hate on Indians? You seem to overestimate these 'peasants'.

As for Industrialisation, if 60% of Sikhs are Jatts then a significant portion of any workforce will be Jatts. Unless of course, you are planning to wipe out everyone from a Jatt background.

If you knew anything about industrialisation, you would also know the main issue would be workers -v- managers.

We are simply going to have to go through this and build up with whatever we finish with at the end. If you ask me we are already down that path.

An all out caste war? Well go for it then. I'm not going to get involved.

Look, we have to protect the vulnerable in our society from the predatory. Jatt society is at a cross roads nows. We can't push for the Sikh equivalent of a meritocratic American dream dominated by people whose whole ethos and culture rejects the notion of egalitarianism with peope outside their ranks. You know this is pretty much common sense. We should feel ashamed that the house of the gareeb niwaaz (which means the the cherisher of the poor) has alienated so many people, for so long that they have voted with their feet. Jatts would try and portray this along religious lines, just like whites like to blame ethnic men for the racism that befalls them from that quarter. My estimation of your intelligence and your supposed belief in a fair Sikh society has plummeted by the way - if you can't see through peasant bullshit like this - what perceptive ability do you really have?

What is 'Jatt' society? In the Uk we are brown folk. In India people hate on NRIs for building mansions whilst they live like Iraqis. If there are caste problems, they need to be raised. I've said that god knows how many times now. Otherwise no one will know about them. No amount of guilt tripping or manic hysteria is going to convince anyone otherwise.

As for the egalitarian system, it wont be built within the political arena of today's Punjab. If you cant understand the difference between top down and grass roots change then there is no other way of explaining this to you.

[dalsingh101]

We've been over this a million times. I've proved this point wrong so many times on here and Sikh Sangat, your blockheadedness is becoming a joke. The Sikhs lost two major wars. In the Battle of Sobraon, Sikhs lost 8,000-10,000 men and their equipment. Do the maths - in today's world that would be like a Sikh army losing 250,000 - 300,000 men! Of course, according to you they could easily be replaced. And where would the equipment come from? Pray to God and let it fall from the skies? Because that's the best you could have hoped for with the British dismantling all the manufactories and foundries.

Plenty of races initiated guerilla wars with the British. Plenty of them got wiped off the face of the Earth. Name one race who were colonised by the English, after the invention of the gun, and then fought them back and kicked them out.

And if guerilla campaigns are so God-ordained, why did the Sikhs lose to the Indian government in the 80s? Could it be, maybe just maybe, that warfare changes over time?

First thing, don't think that you've 'proved' anything. We (and by that I mean everyone) really do with matters like these. All you can say is that you've offered one particular interpretation which you think fits the bill.

At least we agree on one thing - that being colonised has had a profound effect on us as a community (by us I mean Sikhs).

I'm not a farmer.

Whatever tickles your fancy. Regardless of whatever they want to imagine themselves as this week, we can't keep ignoring the big white elephant in the corner anymore, Sikh peasant society needs to undertake some serious reflection and introspection on their arsehole ways towards other communities within and outside of the Sikhs.

There is no big hooha. Some people whinge about Sikhs in the Indian army due to the stuff that happened post-Partition. Some people whinge about Sikhs in the British army due to 1846-1947. Either way most Sikhs couldnt give a shit.

Okay, another thing we agree on. Maybe we should just shut up about it all, seeing as this is the truth. The bottom line is that apnay (like most) are not really motivated (at least very strongly) by religious impulses but more base economic, resource and status based ones. Maybe it is plain silly to expect anything else?

Apart from the 24 million Sikhs in India who havent run anywhere.

That is just a cop out of my point. The truth is that post annexation, Hinduphobia is commonplace in the Sikh panth. Some of it is justified (like being branded Hindus in the Hindu Marriage Act) but a large measure of it is plain schizio behaviour that sees infiltration of RSS type organisations behind everything.

Yeah but they havent. Do you honestly think the Jews of today are anything like they were 2000 years ago? This article shows how Jews have difficulty understanding their own traditions: http://www.sikhchic....?cat=26&id=3057

Add to that the problems Jews in India/South East Asia have had convincing those in Israel of their lineage.

I never suggested (or imagined) the point was plain sailing for them or without its own complexities. My point was just that it is possible for communities to survive long periods, often in hostile environments and come through this with a general degree of cohesion.

As for ourselves, there are plenty of well off and successful SIkhs. The reason they dont work together is because they have nothing to work towards and are put off by self defeating facetious idiots in their own group who push them towards outsiders.

That one is the main point. Just what the heck should the Sikh community theoretically be working towards? We are not a noticeably cohesive group. Often not we detest the presence of each other and are filled with jealousy. A quick look at us itihaas shows us that this has been the case for A LONG TIME - (at least since the 3rd quarter of the 1700s). Maybe we should really just give up on some imagine utopian ideal of Sikh unity, since it has rarely ever existed, other then when we are facing annihilation or genocide?

As for being divided, anyone can be divided if the things that unite them are eroded. In some cases its just plain fear. We dont want to contemplate what would happen if we outlived our usefulness. Look what happened in the 80s when Sikhs threatened to stop food exports to the rest of India.

Yeah, but be real, some communities are infinitely more easier to split than others. I'd say we fall in the easy category. I'd place Panjabi ambition as at least one main cause of this.

And fit in time to dance in fields, lick white backsides and hate on Indians? You seem to overestimate these 'peasants'.

Not at all. I think we've got them nailed down to a "T".

[dalsingh101]

As for Industrialisation, if 60% of Sikhs are Jatts then a significant portion of any workforce will be Jatts. Unless of course, you are planning to wipe out everyone from a Jatt background.

If you knew anything about industrialisation, you would also know the main issue would be workers -v- managers.

Come on! Extrapolate just a tiny bit. You think that Jatt nepotism and insularity wouldn't effect this very notion with promotions and hegemony. Wake up. There would just be an adaption from trying to be a modern day hegemonic 'plantation owner' to a modern day office based equivalent - hang on, where can we see this already? Oh yeah, the SGPC. So it would be managers versus workers - with a hidden caste component that will typically be denied - just like things are here!

An all out caste war? Well go for it then. I'm not going to get involved.

No one is talking about a caste "war", more zero tolerance of the shite we've been tolerating for too long. The issue need to be brought to the forefront of debates, discussions, media, songs, poetry etc. Offenders need to be shamed and humiliated. That is what Panjabis seem to fear the most.

What is 'Jatt' society? In the Uk we are brown folk. In India people hate on NRIs for building mansions whilst they live like Iraqis. If there are caste problems, they need to be raised. I've said that god knows how many times now. Otherwise no one will know about them. No amount of guilt tripping or manic hysteria is going to convince anyone otherwise.

There are CLEARLY problems, dig your head out of the sand for a minute and observe. You'll see soon enough. And don't just base your opinion solely on what you experience on the mean streets of Berkshire or wherever please.

As for the egalitarian system, it wont be built within the political arena of today's Punjab. If you cant understand the difference between top down and grass roots change then there is no other way of explaining this to you.

It has to happen bottom to large degree because (as I've tried to explain to you a thousand times) the top is heavily riddled with this disease as it is.

Anyway, where do we go from here, with some ideas that strike deeply without being ridiculously overambitious (read unrealistic)? Maybe we need to start a thread like "Where do we go from here"?

[HSD1]

First thing, don't think that you've 'proved' anything. We (and by that I mean everyone) really do with matters like these. All you can say is that you've offered one particular interpretation which you think fits the bill.

At least we agree on one thing - that being colonised has had a profound effect on us as a community (by us I mean Sikhs).

I've proved it in the sense that no one has come up with competent alternatives nor even been able to explain their points after criticism.

Whatever tickles your fancy. Regardless of whatever they want to imagine themselves as this week, we can't keep ignoring the big white elephant in the corner anymore, Sikh peasant society needs to undertake some serious reflection and introspection on their arsehole ways towards other communities within and outside of the Sikhs.

Yeah I think all Sikhs need to consider their positions, not just the rural ones. No one's smelling of roses anywhere.

Okay, another thing we agree on. Maybe we should just shut up about it all, seeing as this is the truth. The bottom line is that apnay (like most) are not really motivated (at least very strongly) by religious impulses but more base economic, resource and status based ones. Maybe it is plain silly to expect anything else?

Unfortunately the religous/political impulses have an impact on economic/resource/status outcomes and vice-versa. There is no point in winning the rat race if you stay a rat and there is no point in constantly fighting for a bigger share of an increasingly smaller cake. It's so blatant and obvious I dont understand why our community is so lax and lethargic about things that are relatively straightforward.

That is just a cop out of my point. The truth is that post annexation, Hinduphobia is commonplace in the Sikh panth. Some of it is justified (like being branded Hindus in the Hindu Marriage Act) but a large measure of it is plain schizio behaviour that sees infiltration of RSS type organisations behind everything.

http://www.sikhchic....ooks_up_a_story

It takes two to tango. To deny that the Indians arent up to the same kind of stuff the British were is laughable.

I never suggested (or imagined) the point was plain sailing for them or without its own complexities. My point was just that it is possible for communities to survive long periods, often in hostile environments and come through this with a general degree of cohesion.

But this is my exact point. You perceive the Jews to be strong due to their martial arts or money/political power or their connections/networks which is fair enough. But to think that they are a true reflection of what they once were is wrong. If you speak to a Jew they make out like everything is going wrong. They envy how others are, even though others look at them as being examples of things they dont think they are. I'm not disagreeing with what your saying. Just its infinitely more complicated and relies a lot on personal opinion. Until someone can come up with real markers of progress that we can measure ourselves against, we could end up having discussions like this forever.

That one is the main point. Just what the heck should the Sikh community theoretically be working towards? We are not a noticeably cohesive group. Often not we detest the presence of each other and are filled with jealousy. A quick look at us itihaas shows us that this has been the case for A LONG TIME - (at least since the 3rd quarter of the 1700s). Maybe we should really just give up on some imagine utopian ideal of Sikh unity, since it has rarely ever existed, other then when we are facing annihilation or genocide?

The structure and recent history of our community feeds a lot of this. Going back to the Jews, they suffered similar problems. They only seemed to cope by forming networks to protect them from larger but far less organised, resourceful or clever predators. They had plenty of sellouts/backstabber/general idiots too. The thing about insidious people is that they are good at screwing over their own community but not good at fighting outsiders, instead they chose to pander and supplicate them. When facing an external enemy that doesnt care for the traitors and wants to simply wipe the entire community out, these people get attacked on both sides and their numbers are reduced until they are non-existant.

Facing an enemy that actively encourages this behaviour, on the other hand, encourage the insidious people to prosper. The more useful/industrious/honest sections of the community are killed off or sidelined. It happens all over the world and its happened to us too.

Yeah, but be real, some communities are infinitely more easier to split than others. I'd say we fall in the easy category. I'd place Panjabi ambition as at least one main cause of this.

It's a double edged sword. Ambition wasnt a bad thing when it led to the creation of the Khalsa Raj or the victories of ambitous Sikhs over Afghans/Chinese/Brits etc.

Come on! Extrapolate just a tiny bit. You think that Jatt nepotism and insularity wouldn't effect this very notion with promotions and hegemony. Wake up. There would just be an adaption from trying to be a modern day hegemonic 'plantation owner' to a modern day office based equivalent - hang on, where can we see this already? Oh yeah, the SGPC. So it would be managers versus workers - with a hidden caste component that will typically be denied - just like things are here!

No one's denying everything. I've said it before and I'll say it again, nepotism of any kind harms society. Improving Punjab's economy wont be easy. If people are promoted beyond their means it wont just be discriminatory, it will lead to economic problems as shit managers cause more problems than they fix. Look at Dubai and India, relying on white managers and CEOs. One has to be propped up by oil money, the other has to convince itself that 3rd place in the world is ok.

Edited February 11, 2012 by HSD1

[HSD1]

No one is talking about a caste "war", more zero tolerance of the shite we've been tolerating for too long. The issue need to be brought to the forefront of debates, discussions, media, songs, poetry etc. Offenders need to be shamed and humiliated. That is what Panjabis seem to fear the most.

Like I said before, roll out the examples. Of all things Sikhs fear, this isnt exactly one of them if no one is telling them it exists.

There are CLEARLY problems, dig your head out of the sand for a minute and observe. You'll see soon enough. And don't just base your opinion solely on what you experience on the mean streets of Berkshire or wherever please.

Of course Equality and Opportunity are issues in our community. But this isnt just down caste lines. You know their their are mulitple angles upon which these problems smash into our community. Casteism/Sexism/Racism or any other kind of discrimination needs to be talked about. But high handed 'You're Guilty!' type rhetoric is just going to turn people off. Examples -> Discussion -> Action.

It has to happen bottom to large degree because (as I've tried to explain to you a thousand times) the top is heavily riddled with this disease as it is.

Anyway, where do we go from here, with some ideas that strike deeply without being ridiculously overambitious (read unrealistic)? Maybe we need to start a thread like "Where do we go from here"?

It's simply a case of holding people to account. In Punjab it's an Indian culture thing, combined with apathy by those who should be stopping it. That cover's most of the discrimination swishing around in our pool.

We're to go from here? Well boundaries of what is accceptable and what is wrong need to be set and goals/achievements laid out. What direction do the majority wish to go in? This has to bare in mind the fact Sikhs now live in various 'spheres' with different cultures and attitudes within them.