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Indie Stephen Lawrence Article


dalsingh101
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Very interesting article on the Stephen Lawrence case

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/brian-cathcart-the-killing-of-stephen-lawrence-ended-britains-denial-about-racism-6284484.html

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Whilst I know damn well that whitey likes to hide their dirt in a major way, truth be told, I think we have that thing going on in our own society too - especially along caste lines.

I think denial seems to be an inbuilt feature of societies in power over those who are not. It is very subtle but always at work, effecting people's behavior.

I mean look at how racism no longer gets talked about in the UK because the indigenous people go mental when you bring it up. This has a long precendent, like how a green eyed, married slave owner would have half caste green eyed children born to slave women on his plantation and his wife would pretend nothing unusual had happened, or blame the slave for being a temptress.

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Isn't the denial scenario similar to what we Sikhs and others are adept at?

Whether it is caste, child slaughter, sex discrimination etc.

If someone is found doing that and it becomes public knowledge we simply brush it off by stating they 'they are not real sikhs' or 'our holy book gives us equality and they are doing manmat' or 'its only a few misguided people'.

Ultimately, you can give it whatever title you want or cover it however you want to or justify it how you can, the reality is that it does happen.

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Denial is a very ugly thing and very difficult to challenge due to its very nature.

We deny we are in denial.....

hows about that!

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taking this 'denial' thing further, philosophically.

I do believe that the very first step to achieving mukti is to admit and accept, ie the opposite of denial. Now as we can see, the world, inc Sikhs are avid practitioners of the art of 3D {dismiss, deny,derail}. If we as individuals and a kaum cannot accept and admit our shortcomings both material and spiritual then what is the possibility of ever attaining mukti.?

If denial is a measuring rod to see a persons/kaums avastha then good lord we have a loooong way to go!

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How many murders in England are due to caste?

What are you two on about? Slavery, child murder, sex exploitation all from a story about a black man hunted and killed on the streets of the capital city in the country we live in. Did you see how the whites in the police/media/government all lined up on TV to pat themselves on the back now that 2 of 5 murderers had been convicted almost 20 years after the murder? If anything it seemed that they wanted to prove that Britain had changed no matter how much the evidence shows the opposite. Which brings me to the point - our lot admit their bigotry. The casteist will say why he is a casteist, the child murderer will openly defend why she threw her daughters in a well, the discrimination along sexual lines is often described as being in line with Gurmat according to the patriarchs. English people never come close to admitting anything like that in their society let alone on an individual level. Sometimes I feel like we're in a real life version of Carry on Up the Khyber - at the slightest mention of something wrong with others we then go on some heart string pulling soul searching quasi mystical nonsense to put ourselves as equals to the others. Like how the Indian wives in that Carry On film felt the need to 'right the wrong' of their husband even though he hadnt done anything. If you've seen the film you'll understand.

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i remember that case about the family killed at sea. Truly awful, and you wonder what kind of a person could kill a toddler and a baby.

Supposedly the defence said they had been murdered by a mysterious Asian gang. Luckily the DNA and other evidence proved other wise, as we would have probably had loads in our own community who would have gone along with that defence. If a Punjabi had done this to a White family we would all be wringing and beating ourselves about it. What a waste of life.

F_200507_july02ed_i_149723a.jpgF_200411_november09_116602a.jpg

Edited by HSD1
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If a Punjabi had done this to a White family we would all be wringing and beating ourselves about it.

....and why do you think that is?

I'd say its because we Panjabis/Indians still have a 'collective concious'. We still have that group mentality, whereby if an individual member of the group makes a mistake we ALL feel responsible for allowing that mistake to occur. In western (Euro/American) 'individualistic' society this tends not to occur. Though we are also heading down that western route.

This is at least one positive about desi culture, and one that is noted by western society as well.

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....and why do you think that is?

I'd say its because we Panjabis/Indians still have a 'collective concious'. We still have that group mentality, whereby if an individual member of the group makes a mistake we ALL feel responsible for allowing that mistake to occur. In western (Euro/American) 'individualistic' society this tends not to occur. Though we are also heading down that western route.

This is at least one positive about desi culture, and one that is noted by western society as well.

But it's a bit perverse though isnt it? If a mentally ill person kills someone, other mentally ill people dont feel the blame.

If a crime like that happens to white people, they like to exaggerate the race aspect of the guilty and our 'collective concious' feeds into it. It fuels it. It makes them feel justified. If we are the victims, why do we not expect the same group culpability that we do for others when we are guilty? Surely, in the name of equality, we should expect others to do as we do or we should do as they do. We cant handicap ourselves that we as a group are to blame for every little thing and go through the song and dance of acting like we have something to make up for.

Edited by HSD1
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HSD1, whats wrong with having a collective conscious as a community?

Nothing. My point is that what is the point of a collective concious if you live in a society/community/nation that does not share in this belief? And what scenarios can one consider to be part of the collective concious and which are exempt? Can we and should we expect the same of others?

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Nothing. My point is that what is the point of a collective concious if you live in a society/community/nation that does not share in this belief? And what scenarios can one consider to be part of the collective concious and which are exempt? Can we and should we expect the same of others?

Everynow and again, crimes happen which make the whole british people look at themselves and society, the horrific case of James Bulger, and Baby P, are recent ones. Even the white and black people, so do you think that collective conscious about certain things, ie murder of children, still may exist in one form or another?

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Everynow and again, crimes happen which make the whole british people look at themselves and society, the horrific case of James Bulger, and Baby P, are recent ones. Even the white and black people, so do you think that collective conscious about certain things, ie murder of children, still may exist in one form or another?

Not really, its more a form of outrage rather than any meaningful expression of sorrow or regret. The only time a white society ever shows collective concious is when some of their own commit a crime in the name of nation/race/religion and there is no way of explaining it or defending it. Look at Anders Brevik - when the attack happened, people in the UK were like 'those muslims, we'll get them for sure!!!!!!11'. When it turned out it was a white guy, people started feeling sorry for him as they blamed what he did on 'muticulturalism'. Which says it all really.

Edited by HSD1
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How many murders in England are due to caste?

Let me ask, how many murders, rapes and attacks take place back home with a heavy caste component?

You going to go into denial about that now and perfectly demonstrate what we are talking about?

Edited by dalsingh101
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Let me ask, how many murders, rapes and attacks take place back home with a heavy caste component?

You going to go into denial about that now and perfectly demonstrate what we are talking about?

I was talking about England. No one cares about anyone's caste here. If these things happen then the victim needs to let people know.

I never denied anything. As for India, it is a law and order problem with a severe education component. People need to be told from a young age what Sikhs views on caste are. You cant honestly expect after a hundred years of British (divide and ) rule followed by 60 years of Hindustani rule that the Punjab is still going to be a bastion of how to remove caste from the community. The police also need to enforce laws as well as having a judiciary who punish properly. Expecting Sikhs to self police when they either have no experience of the problem, or dont know its wrong in the first place, is never going to work.

Edited by HSD1
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I was talking about England. No one cares about anyone's caste here. If these things happen then the victim needs to let people know.

I never denied anything. As for India, it is a law and order problem with a severe education component. People need to be told from a young age what Sikhs views on caste are. You cant honestly expect after a hundred years of British (divide and ) rule followed by 60 years of Hindustani rule that the Punjab is still going to be a bastion of how to remove caste from the community. The police also need to enforce laws as well as having a judiciary who punish properly. Expecting Sikhs to self police when they either have no experience of the problem, or dont know its wrong in the first place, is never going to work.

Casteist Sikhs know damn well what they are doing. Our casteism isn't the result of external manipulation.

Plus you are talking pure shit about no one caring about caste here.

You remind me of a white man saying "No one cares about race here in England!"

Edited by dalsingh101
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People do care about caste in Uk, but it is nowhere near the scale in india. There are more inter-caste marriages happening nowadays in the UK, and soon it will stop raising eyebrows if people of different castes are getting married.

We still aren't there yet but progress is being made in the diaspora - then we have to somehow drag those thick village dwelling retrogrades back home into the 21st century.

We need a strong and vocal anti-caste momentum in the diaspora. One that the pendus back home can't ignore.

Edited by dalsingh101
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Who really cares about caste though? Apart from Londondajatt? I've already shut him up.

As for the strong anti-caste momentum, the singling out of a single caste will always lead to claims of victimisation and allow them to reinforce their beliefs. If you want to create a movement that cant be ignored it needs to solve issues that are caused by caste and show how working together can overcome them. Leading by example rather than pointing fingers is the best way to win hearts and minds.

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Look, jatts are the most guilty, organised and determined with their caste shite. Open your eyes. Outside of the web, their are thousands of LondondaJatt, here and in Canada. As for the majority Panjabi community - forget about it!!

But I do get your point about winning hearts and minds. Bear in mind however, that some hearts and minds can be devious and incorrigible to a breathtaking extent. I'm sort of happy that you have yet to buck this force in our society. You will though - sooner or later. If you really are as naive as you make out, you are going to be in for a big shock.

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