Did Guru Nanak Dev Ji Ever Meet Bhagat Kabir Ji At All?

[Genie Singh]

Did Guru Nanak Dev ji ever meet Bhagat Kabir ji at all? If so where did they meet? What did they say?

A few reasons we need to answer this question is to answer the following claims:

• Radhaswamis believe Guru Nanak dev ji took Kabir as his guru.
  

• Muslims believe Guru nanak followed kabir and was influenced by him. Hence for Muslims they believe only Islam is correct and hinduism is not hence everyone should adopt Islam.
  

• Some Sikhs believe kabir came before guru nanak and guru nanak gave him naam and bani but took his own bani back later on.
  

• Some say they did meet but we don't have enough.
  

There a discussion here but no solid answer. http://www.sikhsanga...et/page__st__24

Edited March 3, 2012 by JatherdarSahib

[Guest zulu]

....however Islam is correct and we should discard all hindu aspects and follow Islam.

Hang on did I read that correctly?

Have you been let out of a mental asylum? crackhead.

Edited March 2, 2012 by zulu

[Kam1825]

only Twarikh Guru Khalsa mentions a meeting between the two

[osingh1]

In an old janamsakhi outside of India bhagat Kabir ji writes the following:

“ ਪੂਰਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੂ "

Further to this in the Goindval pothis which are very old pothis of Gurbani that were used by sri Guru Arjan Dev ji to compile the Aad Granth it is written just before the bani of bhagat Kabir ji:

"ਕਮੀਰ ਨਾਮਾ ਬਾਬੇ ਦੇ ਭਗਤ "

Here Baba is referring to Guru Nanak, it is saying the following bani of Kabir ji the bhagat of Baba (Guru Nanak).

Listen to Sant Kartar Singh ji Jathedar Damdami Taksal :

They clearly say that all bani of bhagats was uttered in the hazoori of Guru ji. Guru ji approved the bani and then it was entered into sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Rabb Rakhe

Edited March 2, 2012 by osingh1

[Genie Singh]

Hang on did I read that correctly?

Have you been let out of a mental asylum? crackhead.

I gave you an opinon that many Muslims have about Kabir. Which I don't agree with Kabir was a heretic in accordance to his own bani. However people would say he is using al-taquia for dawah.

Edited March 2, 2012 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

In an old janamsakhi outside of India bhagat Kabir ji writes the following:

“ ਪੂਰਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੂ "

Further to this in the Goindval pothis which are very old pothis of Gurbani that were used by sri Guru Arjan Dev ji to compile the Aad Granth it is written just before the bani of bhagat Kabir ji:

"ਕਮੀਰ ਨਾਮਾ ਬਾਬੇ ਦੇ ਭਗਤ "

Here Baba is referring to Guru Nanak, it is saying the following bani of Kabir ji the bhagat of Baba (Guru Nanak).

Listen to Sant Kartar Singh ji Jathedar Damdami Taksal :

They clearly say that all bani of bhagats was uttered in the hazoori of Guru ji. Guru ji approved the bani and then it was entered into sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Rabb Rakhe

I agree Guru Arjan Dev ji authenticated the bani however it comes from Guru Nanak Dev ji in janamsakhis did Guru Nanak ever meet kabir panthis or kabir? What interaction did Guru Nanak Dev ji have? Kabir was in benaras what did guru nanak dev ji do there and his dialogue there?

Edited March 2, 2012 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

"The Handalis, the third schismatic sect of the Sikhs,

were the followers of Handal, a Jat of the Manj ha, who

had been converted to the Sikh religion by Guru Amar Das,

According to this biographer, Guru Nanak, on his journey

to Sach Khand, the true region, or the Land of the Leal,

met the Hindu saint Dhru. One day while on earth Dhru

sat on his father s lap, and was removed by his step-mother.

For this trivial slight he left his home and turned his thoughts

to God. God accepted his worship, and in recognition

thereof offered him the highest place in heaven. The

pole, as not moving, is supposed to have the position of

honour, and there Vishnu set him in the centre of the stars.

Dhru began to converse with Guru Nanak, and told him that

only one man, Kabir, had previously been able to visit

that select and happy region. Here there was a covert

depreciation of Guru Nanak. Kabir, a famous religious

teacher, by caste a weaver, was his precursor, and the

Handali s object was to show that Guru Nanak was a follower

of Kabir and not an original thinker. Guru Nanak is then

represented to have said that a third man, Handal, was

approaching, and would be present in the twinkling of an eye.

Guru Nanak, proceeds the Handali writer, continued

his journey to Sach Khand, and there found Kabir fanning

God, who is represented as the four-armed Hindu deity

Vishnu. A rude drawing in the Handali Janamsakhi

represents God and Kabir in truly anthropomorphic fashion

as a priest and his attendant disciple."

"Nanak informed God that he had not fully carried out the

orders he had obtained prior to his departure to earth and his

human manifestation. He had only promulgated God s

message in three directions. The western portion of the

world remained still ignorant and unvisited. He was there

fore remanded by God to fully accomplish his mission.

On his return to earth he met in one of the lower worlds

a Jogi with whom, as was his wont, he entered into familiar

conversation. The Jogi, in reply to Nanak s question,

told him that he had been, in a previous state of existence

in the Treta age, a servant of Raja Janak, King of Mithila,

and father-in-law of the renowned deified hero Ram Chandar.

Nanak is made to confess to him that he, too, had been a

servant of Raja Janak, and that they had both served

under the same roof in the same menial capacity. The

Jogi then questioned Nanak as to his secular position in

the Dwapar age. Nanak is represented as saying with

the same unsuspecting frankness that he had been the son

of a teli or oil-presser, a trade held to be offensive and

degrading to Hindus. Thus was the depreciation of Guru

Nanak complete.

Such were the fictitious narratives introduced into the

Janamsakhis, and, the reins of fancy having once been let

loose, it was difficult for the Handalis to know at what

goal to pause. The result was a total transformation of the

biographies of Guru Nanak which they had found in exis

tence. This occurred about the year A. D. 1640. Bidhi Chand

died in the year A.D. 1654. H*8 successor was Devi Das,

whom his Musalman companion bore him.

The Handali heresy was opportune for its followers.

Zakaria Khan Bahadur, the Muhammadan Governor of

the Panjab, about a century afterwards, set a price on the

head of every Sikh. At first he offered twenty-five, then

ten, and finally five rupees. The heads of Sikhs were

supplied in abundance by both Musalmans and Hindus,1"

From

The Sikh religion, its gurus, sacred writings and authors (1909)

Macauliffe, Max Arthur, 1842-1913

[Genie Singh]

"On hearing this the Sidhs made Guru Nanak

obeisance. The Guru, having infused sap into the

pipal-tree by sitting under it, necessarily became a

great being in their estimation.

The Guru and his musical attendant proceeded to

Banaras,2 the head quarters of the Hindu religion,

and the birthplace of the renowned Kabir, then dead

but not forgotten. The Guru and Mardana sat down

in a public square of the city. At that time the chief

Brahman of the holy city was Pandit Chatur Das.

On going to bathe he saw the Guru and made the

Hindu salutation, Ram Ram ! On observing the

Guru s dress, he twitted him with possessing no

salagram

3

though he called himself a faqir, with

wearing no necklace of sacred basil and no rosary.

What saintship hast thou obtained ? The Guru

replied :

Brahman, thou worshippest and propitiatest the

salagram, and deemest it a good act to wear a necklace of

sweet basil.4

Why irrigate barren land and waste thy life ?

Why apply plaster to a frail tottering wall ?

Repeating God s name, form a raft for thy salvation ;

may the Merciful have mercy on thee !

Chatur Das replied : O saint, the salagram and

the necklace of sweet basil may indeed be useless as

the irrigation of barren land, but tell me by what

means the ground may be prepared and God found.

The Guru replied :

Make God the well, string His name for the necklace of

waterpots, and yoke thy mind as an ox thereto.

Irrigate with nectar and fill the parterres therewith ; thus

shalt thou belong to the Gardener.

The Pandit inquired : The soil is irrigated, but

how can it yield produce until it hath been dug up

and prepared for the seed ? The Guru explained

how this was to be done :

Beat both thy lust and anger into a spade, with which dig

up the earth, O brother :

The more thou diggest, the happier shalt thou be : such

work shall not be effaced in vain.

The Pandit replied : I am the crane, and thou

art the primal swan of God. My understanding is

overcome by my senses/ The Guru replied :

If thou, O Merciful One, show mercy, a crane shall change

into a swan.

v/Nanak, slave of slaves, supplicateth, O Merciful One have

mercy.

1

The Pandit then admitted that the Guru was

a saint of God, and asked him to bless the city and

sing its praises. The Guru inquired in what the

specialty of the city consisted. The Pandit said it

was learning, by which wealth was acquired. The

world admireth the ground on which the possessor of

wealth treadeth. By applying the mind to learning,

thou shalt become a high priest. The Guru replied

in a series of metaphors :

The city

2

is frail, the king

3

is a boy and loveth the wicked ;

He is said to have two mothers 4 and two fathers 5

;

O Pandit, think upon this.

"

[Genie Singh]

publishing your work, and we trust our wishes

will be fulfilled. We desire, now that you have become

thoroughly acquainted with our customs, our sacred books,

and the tenets of our religion, that you fulfil the promise

made in your Circular letter to the Sikhs, in which

you stated that you would write nothing prejudicial to

their religion. In the lives of the Gurus which you are

going to write, we desire you to consult the Gur Bilas, the

Suraj Parkash, and such other works as have been com

piled from ancient writings not corrupted by the Handalis,

the followers of Kabir, and the poets who infused foreign

elements into our religion. The Khalsa and the whole Sikh

race will be thankful to you for attending to this request.

In conclusion we pray Akal Purukh to protect you in every

way on your ocean journey, and fulfil your wishes and

desires ; and that you may be ever a well-wisher and

supporter of our sect and our faith. We earnestly hope

that your translation of our sacred books will soon be in

the library of every true Sikh.1

[Genie Singh]

Amir Khusrau writes in his Tawarikh Alai or Khazainul-

Futuh that when the Emperor Firoz Shah Tughlak

(A.D. 1351-88) took the city of Bhilsa in Bhopal, he destroyed

all its Hindu temples, took away their idols, placed them

in front of his fort, and had them daily bathed with the

blood of a thousand Hindus. Firoz Shah twice plundered

the country of Malwa, and took away everything he could

find except earthen pots.

Farishta relates that a Brahman called Budhan, who

dwelt in a place called Kayathan or Kataen near Lakhnau

(Lucknow), was put to death by Sikandar Khan Lodi for

stating that as Islam was true, so also was the Hindu

religion. The saint Kabir lived under Sikandar Khan Lodi,

and was tortured by him.1

The Emperor Babar s cruelty to the inhabitants of Saiyidpur

we shall find described by Guru Nanak, who was an

eye-witness. Both he and his attendant were taken

prisoners and obliged to work as slaves.

The Guru thus describes the Muhammadan rulers and

the state of India in his time :

This age is a knife, kings are butchers ; justice hath taken

wings and fled.

In this completely dark night of falsehood the moon of

truth is never seen to rise.

I have become perplexed in my search ;

In the darkness I find no way.

Devoted to pride, I weep in sorrow ;

How shall deliverance be obtained ?

2

[Genie Singh]

Sokrates was

a profound thinker and moral guide, but still a member

of the laity who had emerged from the schools of the

sophists. Budha was a prince brought up without any

sacerdotal instruction. He conceived ideas of reform by

profound contemplation and introspection. Christ was by

trade a carpenter, and was never intended to expound the

law, or play the part of a Jewish Rabbi. Muhammad of

Makka was born an idolater, herded sheep and goats in

early life, and appears to have had no religious instruction

whatever until he had met the Hanif Waraka, his wife s

cousin. The renowned Indian teacher Kabir was a weaver,

who was so little of a professional priest that he denounced

the Hindu and Muhammadan preachers of his age. And,

as we shall see, Guru Nanak was not a priest either by

birth or education, but a man who soared to the loftiest

heights of divine emotionalism, and exalted his mental

vision to an ethical ideal beyond the conception of Hindu

or Muhammadan.

[Genie Singh]

http://www.sikhiwiki...Bagh_(Varanasi)

http://www.allabouts...a-bagh-varanasi

"The Guru and his musical attendant proceeded to Banaras[2], the head quartersof the Hindu religion, and the birthplace of the renowned Kabir, then dead butnot forgotten. The Guru and Mardana sat down in a public square of the city.At that time the chief Brahman of the holy city was Pandit Chatur Das. Ongoing to bathe he saw the Guru and made the Hindu salutation, 'Ram Ram!' Onobserving the Guru's dress, he twitted him with possessing no salagram[3]though he called himself a faqir, with wearing no necklace of sacred basil andno rosary. 'What saintship hast thou obtained?' The Guru replied:--O Brahman, thou worshippest and propitiatest the salagram,and

deemest

it a good act to

wear

a necklace of sweet basil.[4]Why irrigate barren land and waste thy life?Why apply plaster to a frail tottering wall?

Repeating God's name, form a raft

for thy salvation

; may theMerciful have mercy on thee!

[1. Sûhi.2. Banaras, in Sanskrit Bârânasi, is derived from Barna and Asi, two tributary streams of the Ganges.3. A quartzose stone bearing the impression of ammonites and believed by the Hindus to represent Vishnupetrified by a curse of Brinda for possessing her in the guise of her spouse. Sâlagrams are found in theGandika and Son rivers.4. Thereby denoting that he was dedicated to the god Vishnu.]

{p. 62}Chatur Das replied: 'O saint, the salagram and the necklace of sweet basil mayindeed be useless as the irrigation of barren land, but tell me by what means theground may be prepared and God found.' The Guru replied:--Make God the well, string

His name

for the necklace of waterpots,and yoke thy mind as an ox thereto.Irrigate with nectar and fill the parterres therewith; thus shalt thoubelong to the Gardener.The Pandit inquired: 'The soil is irrigated, but how can it yield produce until ithath been dug up and prepared for the seed?' The Guru explained how this wasto be done:--Beat both thy lust and anger into a spade, with which dig up theearth, O brother:The more thou diggest, the happier shalt thou be: such work shallnot be effaced in vain.The Pandit replied: 'I am the crane, and thou art the primal swan of God. Myunderstanding is overcome by my senses.' The Guru replied:--If thou, O Merciful One, show mercy, a crane shall change into aswan.Nanak, slave of slaves, supplicateth. O Merciful One have mercy.'The Pandit then admitted that the Guru was a saint of God, and asked him tobless the city and sing its praises. The Guru inquired in what the specialty of the city consisted. The Pandit said it was learning, by which wealth wasacquired. 'The world admireth the ground on which the possessor of wealth

eadeth. By applying the mind to learning, thou shalt become a high priest.'The Guru replied in a series of metaphors:--The City[2] is frail, the king; is a boy and loveth the wicked;He is said to have two mothers[4] and two fathers[5] O Pandit,think upon this.

[1. Basant.2. The body.3. The heart.4. Hope and desire.5. Love and hate.]

{p. 63}O, sir Pandit, instruct meHow I am to obtain the Lord of life.Within me is the fire,[1] the garden[2] is in bloom, and I have anocean[3] within my body.The moon and sun[4] are both in my heart; thou hast not obtainedsuch knowledge?He who subdueth mammon knoweth that God is everywherediffused;He may be known by this mark that he storeth contentment as hiswealth.[5]The

king

dwelleth with those who listen not to advice, and whoare not grateful for what they receive.Nanak, slave of slaves, representeth,

O God

, in one moment Thoumakest the small great and the great small.[6]Chatur Das requested further information. 'Sir, shall the name of God be to anyextent obtained by what we teach the people and what we learn ourselves?' TheGuru inquired in return: 'O religious teacher, what hast thou read? Whatteachest thou the people, and what knowledge dost thou communicate to thydisciples?' The Pandit replied: 'By the will of God I teach the people thefourteen sciences--reading, swimming, medicine, alchemy, astrology, singingthe six râgs and their raginis, the science of sexual enjoyment, grammar, music,horsemanship, dancing, archery, theology, and statesmanship.' The Guru

replied that better than all these was knowledge of God.' Upon this he repeatedthe long composition called the Oamkar in the Rag

[1. The fire of evil passions.2 Of my youth.3. Of desires. Man is here the measure of infinity. The ocean is supposed to contain fire which consumes itand hinders its increase. This fire is called

barwânal

, and is supposed to be near the Equator.4. Meditation and divine knowledge.5. Also translated--He who hoardeth mercy instead of wealth recognizeth God.6. Literally--in a moment thou canst make a tola a mâsha, and in a moment a mâsha a tola. A tola is 180grains avoirdupois, the weight of a rupee. A mâsha is the twelfth part of a tola. The hymn is from Basant.]

{p. 64}Ramkali, the first two pauris or stanzas of which are as follow:--It is the one God who created Brahma;[1]It is the one God who created our understanding;It is from the one God the mountains and the ages of the worldemanated;It is the one God who bestoweth knowledge.It is by the word of God man is saved.It is by

the name of

the one God the pious are saved.Hear an account of the letter O--[2]O is the best letter in the three worlds.Hear, O Pandit, why writest thou puzzles?Write under the instruction of the Guru the name of God, theCherisher of the world.He created the world with ease: in the three worlds there is oneLord of Light.Under the Guru's instruction select gems and pearls, and thoushalt obtain

God

the real thing.If man understand, reflect, and comprehend what he readeth,

heshall know at last that

the True One is everywhere.[3]The pious man knoweth and remembereth the truth--that withoutthe True One the world is unreal.On hearing the whole fifty-four stanzas of the Oamkar, the Pandit fell at theGuru's feet, and became a Sikh and possessor of God's name.

[1. That is, God's name will remove hundreds of thousands of sins.2.

Pind

; this word also means the body which is supposed to be put together by the offering of these rolls.3.

Pattal

, literally, plates of leaves generally of the palâs (

Butea frondosa

) in which food is placed.4.

Kiriyâ

, the ceremonies performed on the thirteenth day after death.5.

Chhamchari

, those who walked the earth, the manes of ancestors.6. Âsa.7. Red powder is thrown on passers-by in India on occasions of festivity. The practice is particularlyresorted to on the occasion of the Holi, a Hindu saturnalia.]

{p. 66}spectacle. In the evening, when the grain-dealer's entertainment was at an end,he stood up and went to his private apartments without taking any notice of Mardana. The latter went to the Guru, who sat at some distance, informed himof the birth of the child, and gave him an account of the entertainment. TheGuru smiled, and said it was not a son who had been born in the grain-dealer'shouse' but a creditor who had come to settle his account He would remain for the night and depart in the morning. Then the Guru ordered Mardana to playthe rebeck, and sang to its strains the following hymn:--IIn the first watch of night, my merchant friend, the child by God'sorder entereth the womb.With body reversed it performeth penance within, O merchantfriend, and prayeth to the Lord--It prayeth to the Lord in deep meditation and love.It cometh naked into the world, and again it departeth naked.Such destiny shall attend it as God's pen hath recorded upon itsforehead.Saith Nanak, in the first watch the child on receiving the order entereth the womb.IIIn the second watch of night, O merchant friend, it forgetteth tomeditate on God.It is dandled in the arms, O merchant friend, like Krishan in the

house of Yasodha.The child is dandled in the arm, and its mother saith, 'This is myson.'Think on this, O thoughtless and stupid man,[1] nothing shall bethine at last.Thou knowest not Him who created thee; meditate upon Him inthy heart.Saith Nanak, the child hath forgotten to meditate at the secondwatch.

[1.

Man

in the original might be translated

mind

, but the word includes the heart in the next line.]

{p. 67}III.At the third watch of night, O merchant friend, man's thoughts areof woman and

the pleasures

of youth;He thinketh not of God's name, O merchant friend, which wouldrelease him from his bondage.Man thinketh not of God's name, but groweth beside himself withworldly love.Devoted to woman and intoxicated with his youth he wasteth hislife in vain.He hath not traded in virtue or made good acts his friends.Saith Nanak, in the third watch man's thoughts are of womanand

the pleasures

of youth.IVIn the fourth watch of night, O merchant friend, the reaper comethto the field;The secret hath been given to none when Death shall seize andtake away

his victim

.Think upon God; the secret hath been given to none when Deathshall seize and take man away.Hollow are the lamentations around. In one moment

man'sgoods

become another's.He shall obtain those things on which he hath set his heart.[1]Saith Nanak, O mortal, in the fourth watch the reaper hath reapedthe field.[2]"

"

page 54 http://www.scribd.co...e-of-Guru-Nanak

Edited March 2, 2012 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

Read another book by kartar singh m.a. on life of guru nanak. He said guru nanak went to beneras met pandits they questioned him on his dress he showed them how such tilaks, and other traditional pandit things are not needed and how naam is needed inside he read many shabads and they became his followers. It says he stayed in guru ke bagh there for a long time where he copied out the work of ramanad, pipa, ravidas and kabir. Some generally say Guru Nanak learnt from Kabir most of his teachings and was indoctrinated perhaps by him, perhaps the pandits where already kabirs students and perhaps were observing such kabir panthi things such as mala, tulsi etc.

[Genie Singh]

He lists a few of Kabir panths, hence sects and calls one satnaami panth ... check this out http://www.mapsofind...tnam-panth.html

What would people say if some say Guru Nanak had some connection with Satnami panth?

Edited March 3, 2012 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

Kabir shaloaks in Anurag Sagar

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34413796/Anurag-Sagar-by-Kabir-%E2%80%93-Ocean-of-Love

http://www.scribd.com/doc/38226236/Anurag-Sagar-Complete

http://anurag-sagar.blogspot.com/2006/06/anurag-sagar-de-kabir.html

[Genie Singh]

"There arose a sect called Satnamis founded by Jagjivan Das, a native of Awadh (Oude). They appear to have taken many

of their doctrines from the Sikhs. Their moral code is thus described

:

*

It is something like that of all Hindu quietists, and enjoins indifference to the world, its pleasures or its pains, implicit devotion to the spiritual guide, clemency and gentleness, rigid adherence to truth, the discharge of all ordinary, social, or religious obligations, and the hope of final absorption into the one spirit which pervades all things.

l H.H. Wilson s Religion of the Hindus.

" http://www.scribd.co...s-1909-volume-1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satnami

Edited March 3, 2012 by JatherdarSahib

[Guest zulu]

I gave you an opinon that many Muslims have about Kabir. Which I don't agree with Kabir was a heretic in accordance to his own bani. However people would say he is using al-taquia for dawah.

Yes I understood it was an opinion which some muslims hold, but what I quoted seemed as if it was your opinion, you defo need to work on your grammar! glad you have edited the original post so it makes sense.

regards

Edited March 3, 2012 by zulu

[Genie Singh]

zulu can you give an answer though?