Our Kismet-Is It Totally Predestined?

[jjj]

Its not miracles...

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

I agree with J Singh. Within the Karmic limits we also have free will. The whole concept of right or wrong or even morality is blurred if we assume that we are mechanical beings whose actions are pre-determined and our only role is to be the actors of these actions. There is an interesting story from Hindu mythology. A murderer was barred entry into heaven by Indra because he had committed a murder. The murderer argued that as his fate had been pre-determined by God then he was blameless, since God had fated him to commit murder he was just following his fate. Indra accepted his logic and gave him entry into heaven. According to this logic man cannot be held responsible since he was just following the fate that had been pre-determined by God. This logic is faultless because in the end if everything is pre-determined than man can do anything he likes and there can be no concept of morality or right and wrong. We can do whatever we like because we can always say that it was fated to happen that way.

The whole idea of Karma is that we are responsible for our own deeds and whether good or bad we receive either merits or demerits. The Guru Granth Sahib contains many shabads where the Gurus call upon man to realise his true role in the world which is to worship God and the achieve liberation from the cycle of birth and death. This becomes pointless because in the pre-determined mechanical sense we will either rise or fall according to our fate. So the Gurus would have been preaching to those whose fate had already been determined and the fortunate ones would follow the Gurus but the preaching to those who were fated not to listen would be pointless. The whole idea of preaching to man to avail himself of the opportunity to make the most of his human existence implies a freedom and capacity of man to avail himself of this opportunity.

The story of the two shopkeepers give an important lesson. Our fate is determined but we have a free will to change our fate. By meeting with the Sangat and doing good deeds we can change what has been pre-determined for us. One of the posters gave the example of people who were religious and moral but descended into an immoral life and similarly immoral people who became religious. This actually highlights the change that we can affect in our lives if we chose to take that first small step towards the Waheguru or use our free will to fall.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[Ideal Singh]

Also did you read one of N3O S!NGH'S post.. He is talking about Guru Arjun Dev when He was sitting on the Hot plate. Mian Mir is asking that why is this hapening? and then Mian Mir is told to look at Guru Arjun Dev with his spiritual eye and he sees that it is Guru Arjun Dev Himself who is feeding the fire. It is Guru Arjun Dev who is Himself is sitting on the plate and making himself burn.

This is what Sant Singh Ji Maskeen has quoted from history books about that episode... which changed the Sikh History forever...

Sayeen Miyan Meer once went to the Darbar of Shri Guru Arjan Dev Ji and requested Guru ji to help him out on one of Tuks in Adi Granth (SGGS)(as it was called at that time) at panna 757 which created some doubts in his mind. The Tukk goes like this...

Tann Mann kaat kaat sab arpee, vich agni aap jlaayee || Panna 757 SGGS

Miyaan Meer said "Patshah, this can only be the imagination of a poet, this just a poetic dilution, and not at all Truth. How can a man do it for the sake of Dharam, for the sake of Truth... could agree to be his body be cut into pieces or how could he burn himself in fire... How could a man be martyred in such a way, how is it possible ? Is it just a poetic dilution or there is any truth in this utterance... And History says that at that time Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj did not say anything in reply. And due to this silence the doubts of Miyaan Meer increased...

But then a day came when Miyaan Meer heard that Guru Arjan Dev was to sit on tatti tawi (red hot iron plate)... The Haveli, where Guru Ji was kept, no body was allowed to visit that place... Miyaan Meer was a Raj Guru in jahangirz court and took permission and reached the Haveli... It is said that as soon as he entered the Haveli he cried unstoppably... Guru said to him... Saayeen ji ! Dont you want to say about that Tukk now... Now you see the culiminsation of that Tukk. I will not interprate that Tukk but my life will do it... And Miyaan ji cried even more... Guru Said "Sayeen Miyaan Meer !! don't look at my burnings outwards... look into my patient/cool/sahej Heart...

And rest is all history...

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[SinghMunda]

Isn't reading and getting inspiration from GGSJ part of our pre-set destiny then, so that we can get to God?

[harsharan000]

On 7/25/2003 at 5:20 PM, SinghMunda said:

Are our lives totally predestined?

Because it says a lot in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji that it is, so that must be true.

But i've ended up in discussions with others where they say that we do have freewill to do more paath etc to do more prayer, but is this freewill pre destined too?

Or has God given us part freewill too to improve our lives to a certain extent, but our lives are pretty much always going to be going in the same direction from the moment of birth?

 

SinghMunda Jee, 

just as there is no tree without seed, in a similar way,  there is no life, no birth or death, no pain or pleasure without past karam..... 

If there were no karmas, life could not exist, or better said creation would be a total chaos. With karmas, everything is precise to the microscopic levels.

The Bani says: aapay beejeh aapay khaae, this means whatever we get or go though life is the product of very own karmas, not because someone wants to benefit or harm us deliberately. 

If we give pain or sorrow to His creation, we are bound to receive pain. If we are good to His creation, we shall receive good in return.

So karmas are there at each step in our lives, and to receive their effects is unavoidable,  otherwise there would be no sense in the karma theory. In that sense we have no free will.

Though we do have a free will in the actions we commit and in our reactions in the different situations we may encounter ourselves, means to be mature and moral in them thus to avoid their negative effects in the future, or,  be egositic and wicked, thus get tightly tied with more knots  in the web of karmas.

But, inspite of so much karmas upon our heads, He, Waheguru Akal Purukh being a loving and merciful creator, has given us the chance of this human birth, to arise above all this paraphernalia of karmas, maya, sanskaras, punj chor, or even Kaal.

Arriving at this point, we may ask how can that be possible?

Well, as said above  He being a merciful Father, wants us to learn the lessons of love, of discernment, of morality and benevolence towards all, now it is up to us to understand and follow what He wants us to learn in His creations.

For if we do not amke ourselves strong in the above mentioned virtues, we can not even walk the path of Truth, in order to free ourselves from all the chains of karmas, mind and maya for once and forever.

So going back to the valid method of freeing ourselves,  in Gurbani we can see that He has made that path very simple, transparent and universal for all beings.

The method in question is the simran of His Nam.  That is why in Sukhmani Sahib we are told :

Prabh ka simran mun kee mael jaae.

Prabh ka simran garb na baseh.

 

One can see how simple is this path, yet people fail to grasp the depth or the heights of this spiritual reality.  For they think,  Nam simran is for the higher avastha people, so we can do any other external practices which we see others doing around us.

External practices make us remain outside there where untruth prevails. 

On the other side Nam simran, is not only  an all rounder cleanser/purifier,  but also  takes us within us, there where He is present at all times for all in equal manner.

So to conclude and summarize, karmas and everything else are there, but at the same time His apaar grace is also there to our aid at all times.

SSA.

 

[SunnySingh]

On 7/25/2003 at 5:20 PM, SinghMunda said:

Are our lives totally predestined? Because it says a lot in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji that it is, so that must be true.

But i've ended up in discussions with others where they say that we do have freewill to do more paath etc to do more prayer, but is this freewill pre destined too?

Or has God given us part freewill too to improve our lives to a certain extent, but our lives are pretty much always going to be going in the same direction from the moment of birth?

Though this thread is quite old, yet I believe is much valid even today, for the law of karma does not change just like that, it keeps functioning as long as He wants to keep this creation in motion.

Just as there is no tree/ fruit without seed, or , there can be no action without reaction.  So too, our lives can not exist without the law of karma, each one gets exactly what one has sown.

You sow apples, you will reap apples. if you sow chillies, you will not get mangoes, you will definetely reap chillies, and moreover, you yourself will have to eat them, no matter how much one may shout or cry.

The law of karma is just and has to exist, otherwise, the weak humans and maybe other beings, for all of their wrong doings, usually do  blame Him for being partial, that too when the truth is, He is all forgiveness and full of mercy.

We are sent here (this creation)to become better beings and mature spiritualwise, and recognize His true value by being away from Him, yet many are such donkeys, that they keep on being proud of their deep rooted ignorance when true spirituality or even the pure Gurbani is presented before them.

We are born in koor, and we deeply love koor,so naturally we are prisoners in the creation of koor.

Unless, we eat and digest TRUTH, then only, we do regain our true original  healthy nature of purity, and only then do we become fit to merge and become one with that INFINITE,  ETERNAL, EVERLASTING, CHANGELESS TRUTH, our Origin.

The dirt accumulated on our heads since countless births is just beyond our petty imagination, there is no such soap which we can use and wash ourselves totally, no matter even if we use the soap 24/7 again in countless births/janams.

The remedy for that our such huge amount of dirt, is only washable if He pours the water of His kirpa on us.

The secret of our cleanliness is to please Him, just as a child pleases his/her parents, in order to be receptive to His apaar grace, which in the end is the "cleanser" of all our paaps/sins.

Then too, we proud ignorants, we think we have achieved His realization.

We have to bear in mind, we are all spiritually blind, and unless "He" who has eyes and gets hold of our tiny hand to pull us out, we can never ever get out from the mayavee creation.

For that very reason, we should always have to be humble (saadkee) from the very bottom of our hearts, for in being humble, we are in disposition to become virtuous and do His devotion with firm unwareing faith, which is also more of His bakshish.

Karmas, have reactions in engaging us in more unavoidable karmas, but, His true devotion is karmaless, and is the only water to wash away all of our karmas, there is no other way.

He is Ooch, He is apaar, He is beant, so is His devotion/seva, if done faithfully and nishkam, it can wipe away all our accumulated dirt of  karmas/paap/sins.

 

[SunnySingh]

On 7/25/2003 at 5:20 PM, SinghMunda said:

 

Are our lives totally predestined?

Because it says a lot in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji that it is, so that must be true.

But i've ended up in discussions with others where they say that we do have freewill to do more paath etc to do more prayer, but is this freewill pre destined too?

Or has God given us part freewill too to improve our lives to a certain extent, but our lives are pretty much always going to be going in the same direction from the moment of birth?

 

SinghMunda Jee,

though your post/topic is quite old for about 19 years now, I have just come through it and find it useful even today, for it affects each and every human being.

The following verse from Guru Jee answers your query:

ਕਿਰਤੁ ਪਇਆ ਕਰਤੈ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਮੇਟਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਕੋਈ ॥

Kirath Paeiaa Karathai Kar Paaeiaa Maett N Sakai Koee ||

किरतु पइआ करतै करि पाइआ मेटि न सकै कोई ॥

The karmic record of past deeds, written by the Creator Lord (as per the law of karma, by which the creation is in constant motion for the soul by the endless cycles of births and deaths)  cannot be erased by anyone.

 

And the limited free will you talk about, is the free will by His apaar kirpa that we become better human beings and collect as much as possible with our tiny hands by Simran, the inexhaustible riches of His Nam, for that akhoot bhandaar of His sacred Name will wipe away all the total sum up of our karmas for once and ever and at the same time strongly attract our surtees to Him, just as iron to magnet, then only shall we be freed from births and deaths.

As simple as,that if no karmas, then no kismet, and consequently no births and deaths, then ultimately, our union with our beloved Waheguru in Sach Khand.

 

Gurbani says: Prabh ka Simran garb na baseh.

So bro, if in this way we wisely use our limited free will, then only we shall be saved for once and ever, by our union with Him, not any otherwise.

Or also:

ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਨ ਚਲਸੀ ਸਭ ਮੁਠੀ ਜਮਕਾਲਿ ॥੨੭॥

Vin Naavai Naal N Chalasee Sabh Muthee Jamakaal ||27||

Viṇu nāvai nāli na chalsī sabh muṭhī jamkāli ॥27॥

विणु नावै नालि न चलसी सभ मुठी जमकालि ॥२७॥

Nothing will go with you in the end, except the Name; all are plundered by the Messenger of Death. |

 

*Here Guru Jee can not be more clear, for they say: you may try all other tricks of jap, tap, pooja, paath, tiraths, fastings, moortee pujas, etc etc etc .... but, if you have not gathered the wealth of Nam, you have done nothing, and the messengers of death will pull you and take you to Narak, until you again get the human birth and learn the lesson of Gurmat, that without the devotion of Nam, everything else is just dust.

 

At other place Guru Jee tells us:

ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਕਰਿ ਪਿਰਾ ਜੀਉ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਏ ॥

Gur Kee Saevaa Kar Piraa Jeeo Har Naam Dhhiaaeae ||

Serve the Guru, O my dear soul; meditate on the Lord's Name.

 

He means, that to serve the Guru is nothing else, but to meditate on the Lord´s Name, this is the core teaching of Guru Jee, to love, serve and please Guru Jee, for He, Guru Jee, is our saviour, here and hereafter.

 

SSA.

[PCSJZ]

All I know is Waheguru is not unfair. The Gurbani says countless times that those who do not meditate on him and do not reach the shabad, they will be plundered by the messenger of death. If everything is written and we have no control then why would some of us be punished for not reaching the shabad when it’s not our fault? That would make Waheguru unfair.

Gurbani says ‘ape pati kalam aap, upar lekh vi tu’

You need to write your own destiny.

[SunnySingh]

6 hours ago, PCSJZ said:

All I know is Waheguru is not unfair.

The Gurbani says countless times that those who do not meditate on him and do not reach the shabad, they will be plundered by the messenger of death. If everything is written and we have no control then why would some of us be punished for not reaching the shabad when it’s not our fault? That would make Waheguru unfair.

Gurbani says ‘ape pati kalam aap, upar lekh vi tu’

You need to write your own destiny.

 

God is not unfair, that is totally true.

Bro, the problem is not with Waheguru, but is with us people.

 

For the Bani says: aapay bheejeh aapaay khaae

Which means you yourself sow the seeds(karmas) and you yourself will have to eat it(consequences).

What has the good God to do here, if the foolish jeeva heavily incurrs in the entanglement of all sort of karmas, whether bad or good.

It is not that God sows, and makes us reap the fruits, isn´t it? 

But as usual, the weak jeeva, likes to blame God for all his mistakes and bad deeds, what a fool... then too he wishes God to wave an imaginary magic stick and solve away all his problems and pains.

The creation is sustained by the law of karma which God also created when the creation was made, so that there was total justice.

For if here was no pain, how would ever the foolish human learn to abide by the laws of Nature?

Naturally, never ever.

In a way, pain, suffering and sicknesses, is also a blessing by God, so that the fools may learn by the hard way to behave as good human beings, (and also hold on to the arm of the Guru to get out from the endless cycles of births and deaths), when they willingly do not want to learn in the natural and easy way.

The dumbness/moorakhta/agyanta  of the human being is very thickly implemented in his mind, and has no intentions to remove it, so what can the good God do?

We consider ourselves quite wise in worldly matters, but when it comes to our shortcomings, we say, God come and do this for me....  how silly.

 

For example, the Bani in the below 4 verses, clearly summarizes the secrets of any true religion, but let us just think and answer sincerely, how many of us in spite of what Guru Jee is telling us to do to save our souls, yet how many actually put that in practice?

For almost all, prefer to do many other things/practices according to their petty intellect, plus influenced by other moorakhs, that too when the Bani is crystalline clear, simple and direct without any double meanings.

I still can not understand why people do not like to hold on to the One, and prefer to decorate themselves with layers, badges and lablels of "koor" of all that is temporary and perishable on themselves, for when the day will come to leave this plane, the soul will go naked without any of those perishable layers of "koor", either in the company of the mind and his own karmas, or the gathered wealth of Nam bhakti as per Bani, as simple as that.

 

Now let´s have a attentive  look to the 4 simple, beautiful and true verses of the Bani I am talking about:

ਭਈ ਪਰਾਪਤਿ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਦੇਹੁਰੀਆ ॥

Bhee Paraapath Maanukh Dhaehureeaa ||

भई परापति मानुख देहुरीआ ॥

you have obtained this human body

 

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਮਿਲਣ ਕੀ ਇਹ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਰੀਆ ॥

Gobindh Milan Kee Eih Thaeree Bareeaa ||

गोबिंद मिलण की इह तेरी बरीआ ॥

and this is your chance(in human form) to meet the Lord of the Universe.

 

ਅਵਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਤੇਰੈ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਕਾਮ ॥

Avar Kaaj Thaerai Kithai N Kaam ||

अवरि काज तेरै कितै न काम ॥

Nothing else will work.

 

ਮਿਲੁ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਭਜੁ ਕੇਵਲ ਨਾਮ ॥੧॥

Mil Saadhhasangath Bhaj Kaeval Naam ||1||

मिलु साधसंगति भजु केवल नाम ॥१॥

Join the Saadh Sangat,  and meditate on the Naam.

 

*Can anyone see the simplicity, beauty and utmost Truth in these simple lovely 4 verses?

Truly, no one is as wise as Guru Sahiban, and no one is as dumb or fool as the human being....

Guru Jee says, hold on to the One thing only, but we say, no Guru Jee, I want to do this, that, and that, and that, and that also ... we like to incur into varieties/diversity, which is Maya and "koor".

 

Moreover the Bani also says:

ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਤਰੀਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੇ ॥

Surath Sabadh Bhav Saagar Thareeai Naanak Naam Vakhaanae ||

सुरति सबदि भव सागरु तरीऐ नानक नामु वखाणे ॥

With one's consciousness focused on the Word of the Shabad, one crosses over the terrifying world-ocean. O Nanak, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

 

See the grace of God, we commit countless karmas under agyanta and the 5 vices, thus condemn ourselves, yet time after time, He blesses us with human body, with the hope of that we may learn from the teachings of the Guru and clear the total sum of of karmas with the soap of Nam to finish our coming and going in the endless wheel of 84 and merge in Him, our origin and goal.

What more grace, kirpa and maafee, can He bestow upon us?

And still, we only have complaints of Him?

Shameless people.