The Future Of Gurdwaras In Pakistan

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[chatanga1]

come on people!! give your opinions and ideas. only 2 or 3 people have replied to this here. If we want to make a difference then we really to to act soon.

The land belonging to the Gurdwaras has more or less gone, and is basically irretrievable, but at least we have the nishani of our Guru's there. Are we to let that go as well?

[chatanga1]

One thing i have noticed from my facebook page is that a LOT of Sikhs simply had no idea these gurdwaras actually exist. A lot of people I have spoken to, youngsters mainly, had no idea that these gurdwaras exist?

How many SIkhs friends are there on YOUR facebook that could be informed about these?

Have YOU joined this group and like it ?

[SikhKhoj]

Sindhis will stay sindhi but can manage our shrines in Sindh too. Besides that conversion in general should be more prevalent as Guru Nanak travelled the world to preach Truth aka Sikhi.

Sindhis are already Nanakpanthis (most of the Hindus) and the dalits are in need of Sikhi, so won't take us much efforts but will be good for us as it will strenghten Sikhs in number and give them more representation. Like till some time back there used to be only one minority seat for electoral post, for all Hindus Christians Sikhs and Buddhists. Guess who had the highest chance? 5 Million Hindus Christians or 20000 Sikhs? And this is just an example, Sikh widows dont get sarkari benefits etc and just it will benefit our Gurdwaras too. Not all Sindhis will mind moving to Punjab btw, I have talked to convert Sindhi sikhs and know of many who did leave Sindh to live in Nankana. Besides that few Christians and Hindus have embraced Sikhi but if there ws more Parchar it would have been better.

We do know that many Gurdwaras are historically or importance or Guru related as the name of the Gurdwaras suggest or the history, besides that we should forget about the Gurughars which have been turned into hospitals colleges, because the EXISTING ones are already under attack.

Ever heard of Taru Singh Gurdwara in Lahore which was converted into a mosque? Or Nankana Sahib gettnig attacked by students because of minor issues?

Security comes with huge numbers, as I have always said we do need to create kind off Sikh settlements in Pak where few people live such as north Sindh or South Punjab (this is not related to Gurdwaras but generally).

I knew about that FB page and even before some Pakistanis have wrtten books about the lost Gurdwaras etc (it used to be on allaboutsikhs site) and it sad they're in such a state but I think we need to create a group for Parchar and Gurdwara rebuild in Pak, local Sikh communities have problems too so all at once would be nice. Then we can start thinking of how to help them relocate to another place where they could live in settlements and more security (unless you start saying that larger mobs will attack and kill because theyre concentrated in one place, but that would be just an odd possibility i think). There are many poor Sikhs in Sindh we need to help and maybe we could do something related to them that would include Gurdwara restore, repair etc too? And then we can start focusing on few gurdwaras per time.

[SikhKhoj]

Chatanga, what can You do? Any plans? Co-sevadars? Budget?

[HSD1]

come on people!! give your opinions and ideas. only 2 or 3 people have replied to this here. If we want to make a difference then we really to to act soon.

The land belonging to the Gurdwaras has more or less gone, and is basically irretrievable, but at least we have the nishani of our Guru's there. Are we to let that go as well?

We have to remember that not many people know the history of West Punjab or are too bothered by it. Sikhs who are ancestrally from there are scattered all over India and the West. They have plenty on their plate as it is. Creating more awareness is one thing but the East Punjab Government and the institutions there really have to step up their game. We havent even talked about other sites of historical importance or places from the 18th century. Maharajah Nau Nihal's palace is now a run down girl's school.

Sindhis will stay sindhi but can manage our shrines in Sindh too. Besides that conversion in general should be more prevalent as Guru Nanak travelled the world to preach Truth aka Sikhi.

Some of the above photos are from Sindh. It is a good idea for them to look after Gurdwaras in their state. The question is whether they live near them or whether they can move near them.

Sindhis are already Nanakpanthis (most of the Hindus) and the dalits are

in need of Sikhi, so won't take us much efforts but will be good for us

as it will strenghten Sikhs in number and give them more

representation. Like till some time back there used to be only one

minority seat for electoral post, for all Hindus Christians Sikhs and

Buddhists. Guess who had the highest chance? 5 Million Hindus Christians

or 20000 Sikhs? And this is just an example, Sikh widows dont get

sarkari benefits etc and just it will benefit our Gurdwaras too. Not all

Sindhis will mind moving to Punjab btw, I have talked to convert Sindhi

sikhs and know of many who did leave Sindh to live in Nankana. Besides

that few Christians and Hindus have embraced Sikhi but if there ws more

Parchar it would have been better.

If we are trying to twist the arm of the Pakistani goverment to let us in and renovate these places it will be even harder to get permission and assistance if we start to run around and convert people as well. Badal and the SGPC tell Sants and Babas off for not doing enough in East Punjab. If they cant do it where they live we cant expect them to do it in another place that is now a foreign country.

That is unless someone is willing to contact Sants and Babas and see who will commit. Who's got those kinds of links? It would be worth having a ring around.

We do know that many Gurdwaras are historically or importance or Guru

related as the name of the Gurdwaras suggest or the history, besides

that we should forget about the Gurughars which have been turned into

hospitals colleges, because the EXISTING ones are already under attack.

The people who looked after these places have died after they left or during Partition. All the survivors are old or dead and were only children back then. We dont know the full history of every Gurdwara as not every family passes down what happened. If we are going to be taken seriously by later generations who ask what happened to these places we need to plan for eventually sorting them all out.

I know some have become colleges/schools/whatever but it is not as if the Pakistani government couldnt relocate them to new buildings and the East Punjab Goverment/diaspora meet some of the costs involved for guarantees that the Sikhs will get full control of these places back.

Ever heard of Taru Singh Gurdwara in Lahore which was converted into a

mosque? Or Nankana Sahib gettnig attacked by students because of minor

issues?

We hear nothing in the West. This is precisely why East Punjab's government and institutions need to get involved and bring it to the wider world's attention. If Pakistan knows the eyes of the world are on it they are less likely to act stupid.

Security comes with huge numbers, as I have always said we do need to

create kind off Sikh settlements in Pak where few people live such as

north Sindh or South Punjab (this is not related to Gurdwaras but

generally).

We had numbers in 1947 and it did nothing especially without backup from East Punjab. This is why groups of Nihangs and well educated and motivated people would be better off. They would know what they are getting themselves into and know what to do if things went wrong without having to worry about women and children/old people.

I doubt the locals would appreciate large numbers of Sikhs suddenly appearing out of nowhere. The last thing we need is for them to think we are taking over or make ourselves a soft target. Look at Afghanistan and the NWFP. There were hundreds of thousands of Sikhs there when the trouble started. What did we in the diaspora or in East Punjab do to stop it? Nothing. Do you think it would be any different if it happened in West Punjab?

I knew about that FB page and even before some Pakistanis have wrtten

books about the lost Gurdwaras etc (it used to be on allaboutsikhs

site) and it sad they're in such a state but I think we need to create a

group for Parchar and Gurdwara rebuild in Pak, local Sikh communities

have problems too so all at once would be nice. Then we can start

thinking of how to help them relocate to another place where they could

live in settlements and more security (unless you start saying that

larger mobs will attack and kill because theyre concentrated in one

place, but that would be just an odd possibility i think). There are

many poor Sikhs in Sindh we need to help and maybe we could do something

related to them that would include Gurdwara restore, repair etc too?

And then we can start focusing on few gurdwaras per time.

We need people to go and find out what is wrong and report back from West Punjab about what is going on. With more information we could come up with better plans to help them.

Converting people is going to go down like a burnt Koran, just look at the current climate there.

Moving people around just to look after places we want them to look after isnt bright idea, they may be safer in places they are established. I dont know, no one does, until they go and assess the situation. We cant trick them, we need to talk to them and see what they want.

Getting random converts to 'repair' Gurdwaras is a bad idea too. These places were built with such intelligence, love and devotion that even after all the desctruction and decay they look better than the prefab type Gurdwaras built elsewhere. Slapping plaster and whitewashing everything like they do in East Punjab will just anger subsequent generations who try and piece together the past and compare the photos above to what we are likely to do to them. Read my post on the first page about the various things that can be done to rebuild the worst affected Gurdwaras in a reasonable way.

The East Punjab government really has to pressure the Pakistan government to start allowing access. As more Gurdwaras are made available we should move on and sort them out.

Edited March 14, 2013 by HSD1

[jaikaara]

I hope the khalistanis are reading this ..they should have started the movement here

[chatanga1]

Chatanga, what can You do? Any plans? Co-sevadars? Budget?

At the moment i have only got tears and bucket loads of them.

But since you ask...we have to look at this logically and create a strategy that is feasible.

The first step is to raise awareness amongst the Sikhs outside of Pakistan by usual means, ie Gurdwaras, Sikh media, social networking etc. Make them aware that such a heritage exists, and we are in danger of losing it.

The second step would be to canvass the Sikhs living in Pakistan to see what support they can give, as most likely they will be left with the responsibility of maintaining such shrines. Are they happy and in a position to do so?

Then if we can say that we have the capability to look after such shrines, we can make the move to restore them.

We have to remember that not many people know the history of West Punjab or are too bothered by it. Sikhs who are ancestrally from there are scattered all over India and the West. They have plenty on their plate as it is. Creating more awareness is one thing but the East Punjab Government and the institutions there really have to step up their game. We havent even talked about other sites of historical importance or places from the 18th century. Maharajah Nau Nihal's palace is now a run down girl's school.

If the East Panjab govt did step up to the mark, we would have a much easier job here, but realistically if Badal helped he would most likely want SGPC jurisdiction over the shrines, and given the state of Indian gurdwaras, im not sure that is such a good step. If east panjab govt help was limited to diplomacy in getting the shrines restored, probably that would be better.

[chatanga1]

The East Punjab government really has to pressure the Pakistan government to start allowing access. As more Gurdwaras are made available we should move on and sort them out.

the indian govt is the main culprit for poor access of Sikhs into Pakistan.

The Kartarpur Sahib Gurdwara's bridge to East Panjab, was scuppered because of the Indians.

[chatanga1]

http://sewasambhal.com/index.html


have come across this website which is looking into the sewa.

have a look.

[HSD1]

If the East Panjab govt did step up to the mark, we would have a much easier job here, but realistically if Badal helped he would most likely want SGPC jurisdiction over the shrines, and given the state of Indian gurdwaras, im not sure that is such a good step. If east panjab govt help was limited to diplomacy in getting the shrines restored, probably that would be better.

I doubt the Pak government would want direct Indian control of these places either. The more we make this a religous or political issue, the less likely we are to get the Pak government's help or backing.

That's why I asked about Universities or Musuems in East Punjab. If there are departments or individuals who could organise this we could show that it is a heritage issue. If Badal offered concessions for mosques in East Punjab in return for the same across the border, it could be a win-win situation.

Badal and the SGPC are going to have their hands full with drug/water/refugee issues in the next few years anyway. They should be intelligent to know we dont want their micromanaging. Give us support to get it done.

the indian govt is the main culprit for poor access of Sikhs into Pakistan.

The Kartarpur Sahib Gurdwara's bridge to East Panjab, was scuppered because of the Indians.

Screw the Indian govt, the Akalis are a SIkh party and they should be fighting our corner. Their allies should support them too. In reality I know the Indians would love nothing more than for SIkh heritage in West Punjab to disappear down a dark hole, but we can still twist their arms.

[chatanga1]

I doubt the Pak government would want direct Indian control of these places either. The more we make this a religous or political issue, the less likely we are to get the Pak government's help or backing.

Bhaji, i think it would be difficult to ignore the religious issue, and this is a very important religious aspect of the Panth, and the political issue would also present dangers, as the "SIkh" party, the Akalis, would be vying with the congress(who i know would be very keen to join the fray) over who resurrected this crumbling heritage, and therefore should be worthy of Sikh votes.

But as long as it didnt spill over into Indo-pak political issues, it might not, cause any harm.

[HSD1]

Bhaji, i think it would be difficult to ignore the religious issue, and this is a very important religious aspect of the Panth, and the political issue would also present dangers, as the "SIkh" party, the Akalis, would be vying with the congress(who i know would be very keen to join the fray) over who resurrected this crumbling heritage, and therefore should be worthy of Sikh votes.

But as long as it didnt spill over into Indo-pak political issues, it might not, cause any harm.

I'm not saying ignore the religous dimension but be wary of how we project what is going on. If we start talking about converts and the rest of it, they wont help us at all. We need some support from the Pak government and need to take into account the current political climate. We have to show that this is about heritage, something they can understand. If they think it's political or religous dont be surprised if they start getting funny about it.

Sikh voters need to get a bit more mature too. Protecting these sites shouldnt be about votes, it should be done because it is the right thing that Punjabis should be doing regardless of what side of the border they are on. To avoid it becoming a political issue it should be made clear that as the Akalis are in power, that's why they are asking. It's even more reason to get non-political organisations like Universities involved.

[SikhKhoj]

We have to remember that not many people know the history of West Punjab or are too bothered by it. Sikhs who are ancestrally from there are scattered all over India and the West. They have plenty on their plate as it is. Creating more awareness is one thing but the East Punjab Government and the institutions there really have to step up their game. We havent even talked about other sites of historical importance or places from the 18th century. Maharajah Nau Nihal's palace is now a run down girl's school.

Some of the above photos are from Sindh. It is a good idea for them to look after Gurdwaras in their state. The question is whether they live near them or whether they can move near them.

If we are trying to twist the arm of the Pakistani goverment to let us in and renovate these places it will be even harder to get permission and assistance if we start to run around and convert people as well. Badal and the SGPC tell Sants and Babas off for not doing enough in East Punjab. If they cant do it where they live we cant expect them to do it in another place that is now a foreign country.

That is unless someone is willing to contact Sants and Babas and see who will commit. Who's got those kinds of links? It would be worth having a ring around.

The people who looked after these places have died after they left or during Partition. All the survivors are old or dead and were only children back then. We dont know the full history of every Gurdwara as not every family passes down what happened. If we are going to be taken seriously by later generations who ask what happened to these places we need to plan for eventually sorting them all out.

I know some have become colleges/schools/whatever but it is not as if the Pakistani government couldnt relocate them to new buildings and the East Punjab Goverment/diaspora meet some of the costs involved for guarantees that the Sikhs will get full control of these places back.

We hear nothing in the West. This is precisely why East Punjab's government and institutions need to get involved and bring it to the wider world's attention. If Pakistan knows the eyes of the world are on it they are less likely to act stupid.

We had numbers in 1947 and it did nothing especially without backup from East Punjab. This is why groups of Nihangs and well educated and motivated people would be better off. They would know what they are getting themselves into and know what to do if things went wrong without having to worry about women and children/old people.

I doubt the locals would appreciate large numbers of Sikhs suddenly appearing out of nowhere. The last thing we need is for them to think we are taking over or make ourselves a soft target. Look at Afghanistan and the NWFP. There were hundreds of thousands of Sikhs there when the trouble started. What did we in the diaspora or in East Punjab do to stop it? Nothing. Do you think it would be any different if it happened in West Punjab?

We need people to go and find out what is wrong and report back from West Punjab about what is going on. With more information we could come up with better plans to help them.

Converting people is going to go down like a burnt Koran, just look at the current climate there.

Moving people around just to look after places we want them to look after isnt bright idea, they may be safer in places they are established. I dont know, no one does, until they go and assess the situation. We cant trick them, we need to talk to them and see what they want.

Getting random converts to 'repair' Gurdwaras is a bad idea too. These places were built with such intelligence, love and devotion that even after all the desctruction and decay they look better than the prefab type Gurdwaras built elsewhere. Slapping plaster and whitewashing everything like they do in East Punjab will just anger subsequent generations who try and piece together the past and compare the photos above to what we are likely to do to them. Read my post on the first page about the various things that can be done to rebuild the worst affected Gurdwaras in a reasonable way.

The East Punjab government really has to pressure the Pakistan government to start allowing access. As more Gurdwaras are made available we should move on and sort them out.

1. East Punjab govt will do nothing, face it. Stop thinking East Punjab govt will do something or anything. Think about something you can do on own initiative.

2. Yes Sindhi Sikhs can look after Sindh Gurdwaras. Moving is not a problem for the poor, but we need to provide them economical, religious safety so have to think about it.

3. Conversion will happen spontanously you just need to make a good plan. And Pak Govt don't mind Hindus and Christians converting to Sikhi - theres many cases of this.

4. Besides that its not just conversion, its also poor tribals who converted and are now living under poverty line, they need help and as I said it would be good to incorporate them and Gurdwaras in one plan if possible.

5. Sant Babas lol too busy in foreign tours earning money.

6. First take care of what you have, moving colleges schools etc is not an easy job, do you think they will agree? It will be a long battle so first focus on the ones you already have before they go too.

7. Its not Pakistan but local Muslims doing it, and they really don't care if the world watches or not, was what done about the beheaded Sikhs? All world knows about it? What was done about the deplaced Sikhs, the ones who had to pay jizya, left their homes? All world knew, United Sikhs helped a bit but not all.

8. 1947 is an exception, having areas where you have a majority of Sikhs is of several benefits. Imagine you have 50 Sikhs at A, 100 at B and 200 at C, then you will need different prachers etc and all the costs involved instead of just one, besides the community could do same with tuitions etc (this can also be implemented for Sikligars etc in India).

At the moment i have only got tears and bucket loads of them.

But since you ask...we have to look at this logically and create a strategy that is feasible.

The

first step is to raise awareness amongst the Sikhs outside of Pakistan

by usual means, ie Gurdwaras, Sikh media, social networking etc. Make

them aware that such a heritage exists, and we are in danger of losing

it.

The second step would be to canvass the Sikhs

living in Pakistan to see what support they can give, as most likely

they will be left with the responsibility of maintaining such shrines.

Are they happy and in a position to do so?

Then if we can say that we have the capability to look after such shrines, we can make the move to restore them.

If

the East Panjab govt did step up to the mark, we would have a much

easier job here, but realistically if Badal helped he would most likely

want SGPC jurisdiction over the shrines, and given the state of Indian

gurdwaras, im not sure that is such a good step. If east panjab govt

help was limited to diplomacy in getting the shrines restored, probably

that would be better.

Yes. Awareness in diaspora and creating contacts within Pak, whether its Muslims like the one who made the Facebook page or Pak Sikhs. Gather more information about the place, which Gurdwaras to renovate etc and how to proceed, who could migrate to that area (such as Sikh tribals in north Sindh) etc.

I am in contact with a Sikh who was ex Hindu in Pak since years and he was really wanting to do parchar and everything but he is poor so economical situation limits him.

As I said East Punjab govt, SGPC wont do anything. SGPC wont do anything because the donations in Pak gurdwara are kept by PSGPC and not SGPC. Indian Govt's support can be seen from their unwillingness to build the Kartarpur Corridor in Indian Punjab.

I feel that we need Gurdwaras but Sikhs too, because that is the main point of a Gurdwara right? So for me focusing on Pak Sikhs is equally important.

Chatanga, how serious are you about this?

[SikhKhoj]

Chatanga, I think our first step is making a document with the name of ALL gurdwaras, locations and districts. This would give an overview of which district has the most Gurdwaras (in my opinion in Pak Punjab it would be Lahore, Kasur and Gujranwala - leaving Nankana Sahib aside). Im saying this for a reason.

I have some plans etc too but I stopped time ago due to lack of trustable and serious 'sevadaars'.

Edited March 15, 2013 by SikhKhoj

[HSD1]

1. East Punjab govt will do nothing, face it. Stop thinking East Punjab govt will do something or anything. Think about something you can do on own initiative.

2. Yes Sindhi Sikhs can look after Sindh Gurdwaras. Moving is not a problem for the poor, but we need to provide them economical, religious safety so have to think about it.

3. Conversion will happen spontanously you just need to make a good plan. And Pak Govt don't mind Hindus and Christians converting to Sikhi - theres many cases of this.

4. Besides that its not just conversion, its also poor tribals who converted and are now living under poverty line, they need help and as I said it would be good to incorporate them and Gurdwaras in one plan if possible.

5. Sant Babas lol too busy in foreign tours earning money.

6. First take care of what you have, moving colleges schools etc is not an easy job, do you think they will agree? It will be a long battle so first focus on the ones you already have before they go too.

7. Its not Pakistan but local Muslims doing it, and they really don't care if the world watches or not, was what done about the beheaded Sikhs? All world knows about it? What was done about the deplaced Sikhs, the ones who had to pay jizya, left their homes? All world knew, United Sikhs helped a bit but not all.

8. 1947 is an exception, having areas where you have a majority of Sikhs is of several benefits. Imagine you have 50 Sikhs at A, 100 at B and 200 at C, then you will need different prachers etc and all the costs involved instead of just one, besides the community could do same with tuitions etc (this can also be implemented for Sikligars etc in India).

Yes. Awareness in diaspora and creating contacts within Pak, whether its Muslims like the one who made the Facebook page or Pak Sikhs. Gather more information about the place, which Gurdwaras to renovate etc and how to proceed, who could migrate to that area (such as Sikh tribals in north Sindh) etc.

I am in contact with a Sikh who was ex Hindu in Pak since years and he was really wanting to do parchar and everything but he is poor so economical situation limits him.

As I said East Punjab govt, SGPC wont do anything. SGPC wont do anything because the donations in Pak gurdwara are kept by PSGPC and not SGPC. Indian Govt's support can be seen from their unwillingness to build the Kartarpur Corridor in Indian Punjab.

I feel that we need Gurdwaras but Sikhs too, because that is the main point of a Gurdwara right? So for me focusing on Pak Sikhs is equally important.

Chatanga, how serious are you about this?

Chatanga, I think our first step is making a document with the name

of ALL gurdwaras, locations and districts. This would give an overview

of which district has the most Gurdwaras (in my opinion in Pak Punjab it

would be Lahore, Kasur and Gujranwala - leaving Nankana Sahib aside).

Im saying this for a reason.

I have some plans etc too but I stopped time ago due to lack of trustable and serious 'sevadaars'.

1. We cant let personal prejudices to come into this. If they dont want to give help, that's their choice but we cant shut them out.

2. But what about people who already live in the area they move to? Too many will cause friction. Paying people just to look after a Gurdwara wont work either in the long term as we pay not always be able to get funds to them. Could they live there sustainably?

3. I hope so.

4. They will probably want to stick together so consultation is needed. Where would they like to go?

5. Again, dont cut them out. If someone could contact some about this and see, at least we could tick it off and move on.

6. They will if the East Punjab/West Punjab government and the Sikh diaspora offer some money towards new facilities elsewhere.

7. Yeah but the Pak police and army had no presence or jurisdiction in those areas. If we dont want the same to happen elsewhere we need local support from authorities.

8. Every incident of the last 70 years says the opposite. I'm not talking about communities but small teams at the smaller Gurdwaras.

How many of these Gurdwaras actually still contain SGGS ji? Renovating them would be a start.

If you want a list of Gurdwaras ask people on Facebook and Twitter to post their knowledge on one page/group. Ask people to ask their elders to get place names and locations and speak/put up posters in Gurdwaras. Collate the info and put it on a map and database. Asking for photos would be great too.

Some of you have ideas and I am glad you guys are coming round to my points. But bare in mind the political climate and what the situation in Pakistan will be like in the short term with the Nato pull out of Afghanistan. We have to go into this with our eyes open.

[SikhKhoj]

HSD, dont take this personally but in my opinion you should start reading a bit more about what you discuss.

In 1970s Gen Zia made NWFP Sikhs move down to Punjab (not many, but there were no Sikhs left in Nankana even) and reopened Gurdwaras. If it could be done then, why not now? Besides I have told you that I am in contact with Pak Sikhs who have confirmed me thus, of course not every Sikh will be ready for it, but be sure that most FATA NWFP Sikhs do want to move and North Sindh Sikhs are just to poor, poorest of them all (Bagri converts). Sticking won't be an issue as several families can be deplaced.

Be honest, there is no prejudice against Punjab Sarkar, but if even our own Gurdwaras and Sikhi are not safe in Indian Punjab then what do you expect about Pak Punjab? SGPC had fights with PSGPC over money etc, like how do you expect that SGPC would control stuff over border, with strict visa rules? SGPC should have allowed the money and thought of Panthic Ekta and PSGPC was a better move (as they're closer to Pak govt) but no... SGPC is so great that they rant about PSGPC even till today on Guru NAnaks Gurpurb in Nankana.

Do you know how many historical Gurdwaras are laying in ruings in East Punjab? Guru Gobind Singh's Mehls Gurughar in Hoshiarpur is an example.

What incident of 70 years? 1984 Genocide was exactly the opposite, the areas where the Sikh gathered with weapons had minimal loss of lives and property (unles the police intervened and unarmed them), but theres many such cases all over India. Besides ever wondered why Sikhs were attacked in Pataudi and not Sirsa (where they are concentrated), while both lay in Haryana? Believe it or not, living in huge communities has its advantages.

Almost none of the Gurdwaras contain a SGGS (except the few open ones) as you see they are 'ruins', or habitations of refugees etc.

Edited March 16, 2013 by SikhKhoj