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u wanna tell me where the message from all gurus were different?... they all preached the same ideals, love of waheguru..meditation..respect for all human beings...dignity of labor..vigorous altruism..fearless upholding of righteousness..and a corporate identity

altho they were different in identity and name.. the message and light amongst them was exactly the same, if u read the shri guru granth sahib no matter which guru authorship it is they always refer to "O Nanak".. stating that their message is the message from guru nanak dev ji :roll:

true sikhs who are initiated within the khalsa - these are sikhs - the gurmukhs who follow the hukam of waheguru, they do not believe in the caste system... so stop tryin to imply that everyone follows the caste system... if YOU wanna believe in it then go ahead :D :roll:

would u like to point out the flaws and contraditions of sikhism that you so boldly state?? and please state refferences for ur claims

btw whats this got to do with the actual topic subject???.... make ur point and kindly get back to the subject in hand

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Its interesting to see you've become annoyed and a touch aggressive rather than discuss this in a more logical and less personally offended manner!! :)

I think you'll find that it wasn't me that moved the discussion on from the subject of love. You pointed out it wasn't accepted in Sikhi and it went on in a religious bent from then on in.

If you want to discuss love then lets discuss it...if you want to talk about the Gurus and what they preached then I can do that too. :LOL:

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i agree wiv the steel bangle

maya what are these flaws in gurus/sikhi that u are talkin about.....as guru gobind singh says......the 10 gurus were one.....the wise man understands this...the fool does not.......(bachittar natak)

Making me the fool by definition?

Every religion has flaws and its a foolish man that believes otherwise. :wink:

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I think you'll find that it wasn't me that moved the discussion on from the subject of love. You pointed out it wasn't accepted in Sikhi and it went on in a religious bent from then on in.

hold the phone :shock: isnt this a site based upon sikhism??? i must be in the wrong forum then

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Maya, whats your curiousity??

Is it to know that in sikhi love towards opposite sex is allowed before marriage??

Or is it to know that in sikhi why love towards god is primary and others is secondary??

Please let me know... 8)

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Maya, whats your curiousity??

Is it know that in sikhi love towards opposite sex is allowed before marriage??

Or is it know that in sikhi why love towards god is primary and others is secondary??

Please let me know... 8)

I'm curious how it can be preached that love doesn't exist and that if it does it should be secondary to loving your religion....not God. There is a very distinct difference there...and THAT is what is being said here.

I love God. I also love my family and the man I am going to marry. Loving any one of those individuals doesn't mean that there isn't love left over to love God with or that it takes away from the way i love God!

You can fall in love at any time...before you marry...after you marry..when you have your children...its not a sin and it isn't frowned upon by God.

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I'm gonna add my two cents here too...

So basically what I'm gettin here is that 1) there should be no relationships of this sort before marriage, and 2) that once again... most sikhs don't believe in the caste system...

Ok... here's the deal then... does that mean then that one should reside to choice of the match that their parent's make. From majority of the relationships that I've seen that are made by parents, they're not the world's greatest. It is because our parents see one side of the person and we end up seeing another side... although on the surface it looks like these marriages work, but once one gets inside and understands both ppl, you realize there's a huge difference... I know personally where a person was shown three ppl beforehand and out of them one was chosen for this lady... the person she got was first of all much older to her and second of all had no interest in doing things with her, they're doing ok, but that's because they've learned to compromise and not expect much from each other... however she still sees these other two guys from time to time and they're interests match hers ten times better... and it's sad to see this person struggling the way she is and trying not to regret the decision that her parents made for her...

I believe that one should be able to be on the look out for someone that interests them, that they have a connection with otherwise, if you don't have any thing in common with the person how can u even learn to love them, it becomes a burden than anything else...

and about sikhs not believing in the caste system... then how come my friend was said no to by every single family that she came across... she's a dentist, gorgeous and is the most sweetest person...and she comes from an amritdhari family that doesn't believe in the caste system... but whenever she was introduced to a jatt/tarkan/whoever else... they all said no upon finding out later through friends that her parents come from chamars and these were all amritdhari families they were looking at....... excuse me this happens every day... in frustration she looked to the first person that showed her that she was more than what others thought of her and she married a polish guy, real sweet and he's such a nice person... but this was the last resort for her... cuz no one else wanted to marry her...

Explain to me how that happened, cuz believe me when I heard what had happened to her, it broke my heart on how superficial sikhs have become....

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I'm curious how it can be preached that love doesn't exist

First, who said love doesnt exist. Here is glipmse of what sikh scriptures say:

"Jin Prem Kio tain hi praab paayooo" (Savaaiya, Dasam guroo durbar)

If you love everyone then only you find god"

and that if it does it should be secondary to loving your religion....not God. There is a very distinct difference there...and THAT is what is being said here.

Find me any souls who has attained enlightment without using relegious concepts one way or another. I then beleive that relegions is not the only way to god. The person who doenst beleive in one relegion and doesnt stick with one prophet teachings has hard time gettin to god. Note: I said hard time not impossible. They go through hard time reaching god because they are mixing up teachings. For example- Your aim is to get up the mountain you cant take both directions. You take one. Same rule applies here you stick with one.

And dont beleive in relegion at all. And beleivin in god(non-existent form). I wonder how would u contemplate with god?? knowing what does it look like?? Thats why in sikhism there is a concept of god in nirgun form(non-existen form) and sirgun(human form). In order to meet god you need to have picture of an prophet or an saint in your mind while contemplating. I dont know any other ways. Please enlighten me if you think there is any other way?? :?

I love God. I also love my family and the man I am going to marry. Loving any one of those individuals doesn't mean that there isn't love left over to love God with or that it takes away from the way i love God!

Just an question to be clear on your above quote:

are you sure you love because you are afraid of wrath in god??? For example- what is the whole concept of existence in god?? Is it god judges everyone?? God gives and takes.. thats why you love god...or you actually love because god created you, god put jot(light) in you and gave you chance to be human and merge with him.

Please think about that question. I m tryin to know more about your perception of god so that we can have positive outcome of this discussion.

You can fall in love at any time...before you marry...after you marry..when you have your children...its not a sin and it isn't frowned upon by God.

Yes i agree. But more important even sikhism agrees. There is no such thing as sin in sikhism.

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Gurfateh

Maya

There are three types of love.

1. Physical love that you may call lust.

2. Psychological love, which is the attraction you feel towards a person's thoughts, personality and character.

3. Love in the form of compassion, which does not differentiate, which encompasses all, the compassion which exudes from enlightened beings like our Gurus.

The first type of love we all may have experienced in life at one point or another. This is common and occurs between people from various religions and cultures.

The psychological love is a little maturer, people may find they are on the right 'wavelength', share common views, have similar aims in life.

This second type is the type felt when you decide you are in 'deep true' love, and in the majority of cases people will marry because of this feeling. Although it isn't as common as lust, it is not equal to the third type.

The third type is where religion is significant. Religion is not the truth itself, but the path by which you begin your journey towards 'truth'. Compassion is the highest form of love, a by-product of the enlightened stage which our Gurus where at, which doesn't mean they were mere 'men' when they showered us with their grace through Gurbani. Therefore, the fact that they started as men doesn't add any significance to your argument, that is a different story, which you are free to discuss on another thread.

To gain the compassionate stage our Gurus were in, we must follow a certain path, a discipline, a 'marg'. If you say you have found your 'soulmate' then you are at number two, psychological love stage. If you are happy with this, then stop there, but through this stage you can move higher. How does this happen? Well, psychological love can be towards a person, or towards a Guru. If you use the love and direct it towards your boyfriend/girlfriend, at the most you will be in a loving relationship, but you will miss ever attaining the third stage where you can love ALL, and I mean all.

If you direct this love towards your Guru, then it is a form of trust and submission, which will allow you to become receptive of the Guru's teachings. Then you have the opportunity to reach the stage where you can not only say, but feel the following pankiti from Guru Sahib:

'Na ko bairi, nahin beghana'. Feeling this small line is compassion, the third type of love.

Now, if you believe the Gurus were mere men and religion is not important, and why should it stop you from feeling 'true' love (which is number two again), then you may get what you want, marriage to the person you love, but you will miss losing your ego, which is the only action that results in becoming compassionate.

The whole point of having a Guru, a teacher, is that so whatever you do in life, you can say, everything happened due to the GURU's grace. No 'I' remains. This is why religion is necessary, and particulary Sikhism. The concept of the Guru, and His word is so central to our religion, because it leaves no room for ego.

This is why religion is important. However, if you are not interested in attaining the thrid stage of compassion, then by all means disregard religion and follow your own path (manmat).

For a Sikh, Gurmat is the only mat, because only a true Sikh will be aiming for the last stage, which is compassion, merging with the whole, Vaheguru.

If you want to aim for the third stage, then as a Sikh it is more beneficial and practical if you marry a Sikh. If you marry a GurSikh who shares common views, and common aims in terms of love for Sikhi, then it is easier to progress on a practical level, providing you want to move forward. The whole point is to move beyond the second stage, which is higher than the rest. This is what is called the universal religion.

Think about which of the three you are aiming for, and your path will be revealed.

Bhul Chuk Dee Khima

Gurfateh

Gurpreet

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Guest BikramjitSingh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Excellent post Gurpreet Kaur Ji. Very informative.. never looked at it like that.

Don't mind the daft comments from Lallesvari.. some people use cryptic comments to try and disguise the lack of substance in their argument.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

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Guest Javanmard

What's so cryptic about "19th century Victorian categories", it's simple clear English, understandable for anyone with good culture.

Bikramjit.... sometimes you really surprise me :roll: :roll: :shock:

I never said Gurpreet's article was bad, I just said she should be acreful, if you want my response was a Japanese "yes" :yes....but :wink:

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I've been told that too... that what we share amongst humans is basically an admiration and respect for the other person...

But i'm just wondering if anyone read my previous post in this thread...

Is it right to let our parents decide for us and live with the 95% chance that the marriage will be one of compromise and no likes matching up...

and how come ppl still bring in the caste factor (contrary to what everyone thinks... read about my friend above..)

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and how come ppl still bring in the caste factor (contrary to what everyone thinks... read about my friend above..)

The reason is ignorance is still here. The only way to show them the way is to let out few verses from sggs ji on caste system to show them their fake orthodoxy!!!. Its slowly goin away though.

Lots has been done as we speak: Lectures session with parents and kids, camps, visual cartoons on caste system in news papers to educate parents and kids.

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Thas real sad then.... that ppl call themselves Gursikhs and still commit crimes like that... damn.... u know it totally messes up a persons confidance about them when they've been rejected on pure baseless reasons.... and more than that... I neva knew about her caste background until now and to me it made no difference cuz she is such a beautiful person... why don't ppl at least give another person a chance to such what gem they are....

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Yep I agree with you there. Its slowly going away. You have to remember its an very bad influence from hindu soceity that our ancenstors lived in from guroo's time. It was almost an epedimic.

Speaking of this caste- Bhagat Namdev came in my mind right away:

faer dhaehuraa raakhioun chaar varan lai pairee(n) paayaa||

On yet another occasion, God rotated the temple (after Naamdev was not allowed entrance) and made all the four castes (varnas) bow at the feet of Namdev. Bhai Gurdaas Ji

Vaars Bhai Gurdaas

10

He wasnt allowed in hindu mandir and perform the rites because he was low caste.

Thank Lord its improving enough from anceint times. Key is education. Thats all.

Here i search on caste and found out 4 pages in sggs talkin about caste, how it should root out all together.

Click on this link http://www.sikhitothemax.com/search.asp and search for caste. 8)

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First, who said love doesnt exist.

If you read back that was exactly what was offered as an argument by one poster.

The person who doenst beleive in one religion and doesnt stick with one prophet teachings has hard time gettin to god. Note: I said hard time not impossible. For example- Your aim is to get up the mountain you cant take both directions. You take one. Same rule applies here you stick with one.

There are many routes up that mountain. Not one and there are routes that don't use the "crutch" of religion. Religion is a "route" to God. Not the only way to believe in him.

In order to meet god you need to have picture of an prophet or an saint in your mind while contemplating. I dont know any other ways. Please enlighten me if you think there is any other way?? :?

Says who? Who are you or any religion to judge the way to commune with God??? All you have is your intepretation...not divine knowledge. Other religions make the same claims...you can't all be right...you can't all be wrong. Therefore there must be more than one route to God.

are you sure you love because you are afraid of wrath in god??? For example- what is the whole concept of existence in god?? Is it god judges everyone?? God gives and takes.. thats why you love god...or you actually love because god created you, god put jot(light) in you and gave you chance to be human and merge with him.

I don't believe in a "Biblical" God that indulges in punishment or "wrath" so no i'm not afraid of the wrath of God!!! I love God because yes, he created me and hes a divine force...and he helps those who helps themselves. I believe that he answers your prayers via appeals from those who love you.

Yes i agree. But more important even sikhism agrees. There is no such thing as sin in sikhism.

Again...Sin was a word that was thrown up other posters in the discussion.

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Is it right to let our parents decide for us and live with the 95% chance that the marriage will be one of compromise and no likes matching up...and how come ppl still bring in the caste factor (contrary to what everyone thinks... read about my friend above..)

Caste and discriminating is still VERY important to many many Sikhs...I am of suposedly "high" caste....i see and hear it on a daily basis from the people around me. They revel in being of high caste. Its merely a form of control...like the class system here.

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