Narsingha Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 If there are any individuals who consider themselves experts on Dam Dami Taksal history, could they please answer the following question. I need some help: The "Dam Dami Taksal" (based at Chowk Mehta) also known as "Bhindrawaley Taksal" does not seem to appear referenced anywhere in any historical texts such as Parchian Sevadas, Gurblias Dasmi, Gurpratap Suraj Granth, Prem Sumarg, Prachin Panth Prakash, Naveen Panth Prakash, Guru Sobha, Mahima Prakash, etc. None of the Rehitnaamas (see Pyara Singh Padam's book) mention it either. Perhaps I may have overlooked a text that does mention them? This Taksal is not in the Mahan Kosh either, nor within the late Pyara Singh Padam's comprehensive and detailed text on Puratan Sampardahs. The first mention of this institution appears in a publication by Kartar Singh Bhinderawaley "Damdami Taksal Ithehas Sankhep" in the mid-late 1900s. Incidentally, this is also the FIRST text I have come across that traces the Dam Dami taksal's history to Akali Nihang Baba Deep Singh ji Shaheed, who incidentally was based at Batinda, not Amritsar (correct me if I'm wrong) If this institution at Chowk Mehta is so great within Sikhi as the Dam Dami Taksal followers claim, why is there NO mention of it until Kartar Singh Bhindrawaley's publication in the mid-late 1900's? ..or maybe you can point me to a publication that references them written before Kartar Singh Bhindrawlay's work. Thanks in advance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Singh Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 Khalsa Fateh If there are any individuals who consider themselves experts on Dam Dami Taksal history, could they please answer the following question. I need some help: Sorry, I’m no expert, nor I can I answer your question, but I’d like to make a point with regards to Baba Deep Singh Ji not being based there; there is historical evidence to show that Babaji Actually resided there: Back in Baba Deep Singh Ji’s era, there was little fresh water around. Hence Baba Deep Singh Ji proceeded with the digging of a well to provide fresh water. This well is still visible today, it’s situated near the front gate. FYI, there are also other relics; a mirror of Guru Gobind Singh Ji – the very one used by 10th master to tie his Dastaar. Also, there is a small building dedicated to Baba Deep Singh Ji, depicting Babaji's life in pictorial format (not sure of the age of this however). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhasingh Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 I thought Baba Deep Singh Ji was Tarna Dal Saheedi Piera ? :shock: and again like J Singh mentioned no historical text, Narsingha points out that there has been no mention of them in text, but their own text has pictures of all the baba's and their liniage from Bhai Mani Singh. No websites but they look like they are under construction hurry up all you web designers the internet is alight with new info. http://www.taksal.com/ http://www.damdamitaksal.com http://compufield.com/harjinder/history.html :sikhiwink2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 J.Singh, I am sure u may be correct, but cud u pls give me a historical reference with regards to what you stated? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 28, 2003 Report Share Posted July 28, 2003 ehem actually the real successor to Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale was Sant Mohan Singh Bhindranvale who remained in Bhindran kalan, whereas Sant Kartar Singh set up his group in Chowk Mehta. Sant Sundar Singh, Sant Gurbachan SIngh and Sant Mohan SIngh Bhindranvale and their taksal are a Nirmala institution. The teacher of Sant Sundar Singh Ji was Mahant Bishan Singh Nirmala, a great Nirmala scholar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 any answers? :cry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Singh Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Narsingha Apologies, for I cannot supply any documented reference; what I know was orally narrated upon my visit to DamDama Sahib. If this institution at Chowk Mehta is so great within Sikhi as the Dam Dami Taksal followers claim, why is there NO mention of it until Kartar Singh Bhindrawaley's publication in the mid-late 1900's? Coincidently, I (and my family) met Baba Santa Singh there (April 1998). If wasn’t such a great institution, I doubt Baba Santa Singh (and MANY Nihang Singhs) would have been staying there. What do you think? Maybe if you ask Nidar Singh to relay the question on to Baba santa singh, babaji maybe able to provide answers to whether DamDami Taksal is/was great and about the well that was dug up... Khalsa Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasdev Singh Posted July 29, 2003 Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh I find it really insulting when some people are questioning the authenticy of Damdami Taksal. The four main jathay bandian from Guruji's time were: 1)Taksal 2)Nihangs 3)Nirmalay 4)Udassi. All these jathay bandis still exist to this day, and they have outmost respect for each other. I would request the nihungs to ask their respected Jathedars (Jathedar Santa Singh Budha Dal, Jathedar Tarna Dal,Jathedar Nihal Singh Harian Velan, Jathedar Daya Singh Bidhi Chand, and all the others I have left out) about the history of Taksal as they definitely know all the full facts. Majority of the Jathedars from Taksal have been a big part of the panth. Either as granthi's or teachers at darbar sahib or as great warriors. Nihang singhs have a very strong ties with Taksal, my family is personally related to Jathedar Akali Phula Singh Bhuda Dal and has always been very close to Taksal. Damdami Taksal history will be shortly up as we are very busy working on our websites: www.damdamitaksal.com, www.damdamitaksal.org, www.gurparsad.org, www.gursikhijeevan.com. "actually the real successor to Sant Gurbachan Singh Bhindranvale was Sant Mohan Singh Bhindranvale who remained in Bhindran kalan, whereas Sant Kartar Singh set up his group in Chowk Mehta. " This statement is 100% false as we have the tapes in which Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh Khalsa says that Sant Kartar Singh will be given all responsibilities of Taksal. Please refrain from making comments that are not 100% correct. You should not make a statement which you are not sure about unless you state that you are unsure. Please be patient and wait for the sites to go up, as they will answer many questions people have regarding Damdami Taksal. Bhul Chuk Maaf Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2003 As Sikhs, scholars of the truth, we have a right to question anything within Sikhi, so why not the authenticity of Dam Dami Taksal? If we do not question, we leave the door open to igorance. People have questioned the authenticity of Udhasis, Nirmalas, Seva Panthis and Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa, and as such, ample poof has been given of their origins, ideology, practices and lineages (with more to come) on www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org. The question in my first post remains unanswered....could you at least point me to a written source to clarify my question? I am sure your websites must be based upon some kind of literary source and are not being created out of thin air. As such, please let me know the source of the Taksal history you are utilising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 People have questioned the authenticity of Udhasis, Nirmalas, Seva Panthis and Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa, and as such, ample poof has been given of their origins, ideology, practices and lineages (with more to come) on www.sarbloh.info and www.shastarvidiya.org. Narsingha Please don't make such pompous statements. You have already bypassed questions about the website using your usual 'wait for another website, it will answered there' tactic on the thread below. http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...t=1480&start=15 GurFateh Bikramjit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Bikramjit, as yet all you have done is insult me, nothing else. So, try to remove your God-complex. We have stated on the websites that if anyone can refute the facts presented on the websites they are welcome to do so, and if we are proved incorrect we will make ammends. (I guess you missed reading that bit too right?) :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 please to all of you: Udasi (not Udhasi),Nihang, NIrmale and Sevapanthi are sampradayas NOT JATHAS!!!! GIani Sampradaya (and therefore the Damdami Taksal) is section of the Nirmala Sampradaya which gained some autonomy. Still the Damdami Taksal's lineage is deeply intertwined with the Nirmale. All the above mentioned organisations are orthodox sampradayas.A sampradaya means that it has been founded or condoned by GuruJI. Jathas are man-made institutions. Some are still within the Panth like Nanksar etc.. whereas others preach their own manmat e.g. AKJ etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukhasingh Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Jasdev Singh I look forwards to the new sites, along time in waiting please have loads of mp3's katha etc or sangat to share and learn from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sukdev Singh Jhamka Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Am no expert on the Damdami Taksaal but man i love those Singhs, look at their jeevan, look at their Jathadars Baba Deep Singh Ji Shaheed, Baba Gurbaskh Singh Ji Shaheed that’s where the name Shaheeda de misl comes from and Sant Jarnail Singh the true loins of punjab the Taksaal has protected and gave their lives to protect Sri Harmandir Sahib and will do so again. As for text book evidence i think the singhs were to busy fighting and protecting the weak and oppressed, as the Nihangs say oral traditions is so important so listen to Sant jis tapes u might learn a few things about sikhi. i remember one time nidar saying there where 5 Sampradaya, now it’s become 4 as they now the Taksaal ain’t going to twist history or rehit. Only certain groups are trying to destroy the great heritage of the Taksaal but as Sant Ji says "the Taksaal was set up by Guru ji its got the kirpa of Guru ji, no one will be able to destoy it" ive not got the exact wording but its something like that. Sos in advance . i feel it comes down to jealousy because of the part the Damdami Taksaal played in the panth as a fight force as well as a gurmat university. As for all the mis info about Sant Gyani Kartar Singh etc its all lies, theres tapes out there which clearly talk of Sant Gyani Kartar Singh being elected Jathadar so please do ur research before u take digs, we now what ur game is but it aint working matey. Baba Daya Singh Sursinghwale of the Baba Bakala jatha ask them about Sant Kartar Singh Bhindranwale they help Sant Ji set up, talk to Sant Nihal Singh of the Tarna Dal he will tell u or is it that u have no links with these Nihangs?? Narsingha and co stop confusing ppl out there, ppl coming into Sikhi dnt need all this heaped on them, Sikhi is simple and easy. Bhul chuck marf Sukdev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 nothing against Taksal, Taksal's brilliant! It's just that there are some confusions in lineage regarding Baba Kartar SIngh's branch: that's it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyam Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Taksal was virtually unheard of, just about 40 years ago. Read any material like books, newspapers of that time, there is no name of Damdami Taksal. Damdami Taksal if there is any would be at Damdama Sahib and not at Bhinder Kalan or Muralee village. They say Guru jee started Taksal. It is totally a false idea. No historical evidence of that. Guru jee started only one thing and that is Khalsa Panth. He did not start any Taksal or Nihung. Taksal of Sant Gurbachan Singh has done good things but they are about 100 years old and started from Sant Sunder Singh. Sant Sunder Singh learned from Sant Bishan Singh who actually gave his gaddi to Sant Prem Singh of Murala of whom Bibi Jagir Kaur was daughter-in-law. Provide proof that Taksal is authentic. Provide historical evidence and not book reference from Sant Gurbachan Singh ji’s writing or that Baba Thakur Singh said so. Provide independent proof. Go look for it, but be warned that there is not any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted July 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Shyam, are you accusing the Taksal of creating a fake lineage to Akali Nihang Baba Deep Singh ji? Also, your comments on http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...?t=619&start=60 Regarding the Raagmala also accuse Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji's work against anti-Raagmala factions as being non-sensical. Are you suggesting Baba Gurbachan Singh and Baba Kartar Singh were wrong in their stance with regards to Raagmala too and also are accused of creating a fake lineage? Please clarify. Could the Taksal experts please point me to a txt/resource on this lineage issue (which was the original question of the thread) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 DamDami Taksal was created from the incidence, which occurred when the tenth master, Guru Gobind Singh was at Takht Sri Anandpur Sahib. At that time, a beloved priest was reciting the Panj Granth with sincerity. Whilst reciting the gurbani he made one continuous mistake in the Dachanee Onkar path. This was noticed by Bhai Daya Singh Ji, and other Sikh followers, who then approached the tenth master saying 'Oh great one, bestow your blessings upon your followers and teach us the way to read and understand the Gurbani without which we do not stand corrected.' When ever the beloved followers put a request forward to the Guru Ji he would never disregard the congregations wishes. Once free from the battles, proceeding after his sacrificed sons (4 Shahejade), who gave there lives away for there religion, Guru Ji went on to Talwandi and asked of the Singhs to 'go to Kartarpur Sahib to see Theer Mal. When the fifth master, Guru Arjan Dev Ji was reciting the gurbani, he left a space for where the Ninth Guru was to complete it. Whilst getting the Guru Granth Sahib Ji complete the translations shall be explained.' Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Ji went to see Teer Mal, and replied if Guru Gobind Singh Ji is so great why cannot he recite the gurbani off by heart. To make Teer Mal eat his words Guru Ji went to Takht Sri Dam Dama Sahib Sabho Ke Talwandi, to then recite the whole of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji with the aid of Bhai Mani Singh being the scriber. With so much swiftness at that very day the Jap Ji Sahib, reheraas Sahib and the Kirtan Sohila was concluded, and that very evening, it was all translated to the congregation. This began the process of writing, reading and translating of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, to the 48 followers and the congregation. The papers, pens and ink were supplied with great homage by Baba Deep Singh Ji. It took 9 months 9 days from 1762 until 1763 to complete the whole of the translation from Ik Onkar to Attarehi Das Bees. Where at the ending of the Guru Ji's teaching, a large ceremony took place which left the whole Sikh nation astonished by Guru seva. From hearing the translation from the Guru Ji (10th), the 48 followers gained devine knowledge (Brahm Giaan) which left them detached from all material status. Guru Ji gave permission to Bhai Manni Singh and Baba Deep Singh Ji to take forward this seva and teach others there learnings. Even if your bodys are cut into pieces or your head is removed from your body, you will remain focused to your devine side note: look at the sentence in bold... from "Ik Onkar to Attarehi Das Bees" 'Attarehi Das Bees' is the conclusion of raagmala taken from http://compufield.com/harjinder/history.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 according to most Nirmala sources, Damdami Taksal of Sant Sundar Singh is a Nirmala institution, actually a very revered one. Most Nirmale have tsunami waves of respect for Sant Sundar Singh ji, Sant Gurbachan Singh ji and Baba Mohan Singh Ji Bhindranvale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
187sangh Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Yes Damdami taksal is great! Sant baba Kartar Singh was the actual jathedar successor after Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh ji. Mohan singh was a singh who didn’t agree with this and made a band of 13 singhs with him to try and gain control of taksal, all the singhs in the jatha know this story, and they all know that he was unsuccesfull at his attempt. Sant baba Gurbachan singh ji gave the jathedar to Sant Kartar Singh at Patna Sahib, he surprised all the singhs in the jatha by announcing it in the middle of his katha, this is how it got recorded. For any people who don’t believe this you can find the tape for yourself and listen to it if you like. Or you can talk to older singhs of the jatha who were there in the flesh like I also have and they will tell you that sant kartar singh was given the jathedar, not mohan singh. I don’t know how someone can write something soooo far from the truth, you should get your facts straight. Even when sant baba sundar singh ji gave the jathedar to sant baba gurbachan singh some singhs got mad to and boycotted the move, because they thought they deserved it. Secondly for all the people who are putting down taksal and saying negative things about it, you should think to yourself, its one thing to do nindya of one person, but doing nindya of such mahupurshes which we all know of, and thousands of gurmukhs who are all nitnami, do seva, simran, give dasvand and so on, that is putting a load on yourself which is going to take along time to work off, and was pointless to put on in the first place. I know a lot of singhs from taksal personally, most of these singhs probably read more bani by lunch time then we all do in a whole week. And Damdami taksal is not nirmla assiociated, i dont know where you people get this stuff from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 though I disagree with you, koi na. we all love sant jarnail singh and that's what matters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted August 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 ...my question still remains unanswered despite the wealth of knowledge revealed on this thread ..why is there NO mention of "DamDami Taksal" before Baba Kartar Singh Bhindrawaley? NO historical texts mention this instutition, not even the Mahan Kosh. For such a great historical instutition, it is surprising that none of the historical writers mention it in their texts either, eg, Rattan Singh Bhangu, Koer Singh, Kavi Santokh Singh, Giani Gian Singh Nirmala, Piyara Singh Padam, Kahn Singh Nabha, Sukha Singh, Bhai Gurdas Ji, etc. The Nihangs, Udhasis, Nirmalas, Seva Panthis, even Naamdharis are mentioned by some of these authors within their texts....but nothing about "Dam Dami Taksal". Even Piyara Singh Padam's text listing all the Sampardahs of Sikhi does not contain an entry for "Dam Dami Taksal". To the knowledge of the Akali Nihang Singh Khalsa Granthis who are experts in Santhia/Ithihas (eg, Giani Gurdev Singh ji Nihang, Budha Dal, Akali Nihang Narinder Singh ji, presently at Bhoparai Taksal to name a few), the first mention of the "DamDami Taksal" institution and their lineage of jathedars to Akali Nihang Baba Deep Singh ji is mentioned in "Damdami Taksal Ithihas Sankeph" written by the Taksal themselves....and even this text does not reference any historical text to confirm this lineage of Jathedars. So, could someone please assist me on this quest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidak Posted August 14, 2003 Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 ...my question still remains unanswered despite the wealth of knowledge revealed on this thread why don't you go to panjab and ask baba thakur singh yourself ? after all, that's what you advocate to others who ask seemingly straight forward questions. NO historical texts mention this instutition just like you contended on a previous topic that no historical texts mention "banda singh" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted August 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 sidak, unlike yourself, I have made an effort to do some research before asking people for answers. Also, with regard to Banda Bahadur, the aim of that thread was to look for knowledge, not to start a personal contest as to who's right or wrong. Rattan Singh Bhangu stated Banda Bahadur never took amrit, hence me stating that fact on that thread, whether it is historically correct or not is determined by seeking what other information is out there, and coming to the best conclusion. sidak, for once, try to avoid whining like a child and stop making every thread a personal issue. You seriously need to learn the art of debate and discussion. I assume you are old enough to vote? At least exercise your maturity. Please make an effort to do your own research first rather than using me as your search engine for Sikhi. Im flattered by the attention, but I'm sure there are other ways to look for information. If you have nothing positive to contribute, try the AKJ forums. The reason for this thread is I am hoping someone will reveal some information that I have missed.....its not about who's right or wrong, its about looking for facts. In fact I am HOPING that I am proved wrong, at least it shows I have learned something new... I dont expect to get all my answers on this forum, and have asked a good few other people with regards to this topic. This forum is just ONE avenue amongst many I am using to gain information. I didnt realise I had to mention this just to appease the petty nature of some monkeys on this forum... :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidak Posted August 14, 2003 Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 you seem to like to flatter yourself rather too much...challo koi gall nee as for the art of debate and dicussion, i'm sure others on this forum are more used to witnessing your art of "avoiding the question and running around in circles". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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