Sri Sarbloh Granth

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

There is a passage in Sri Sarbloh Granth asking the Khalsa to perform a Havan. I think its a metaphor used to highlight the necessity of performing langar seva, we light fire which is used in havan but we use it to feed people and do not feed the fire itself. Can anyone provide the specific passage? Thanks.

[jaikaara]

I have come across the mention of Havan in Brahm Kavach Bani ..ending with ' Paath Sawa Lakh Havan kar jeet jung sab hog'

in Puratan Maryaada Havan must have been a integral part.

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

From what I understand, as per Baba Jagjeet Singh Ji and Gyani Inderjjet Singh Ji, 'Havan' in Gurmat denotes the acceptance of death via the burning of material desire in the fire of divine knowledge or the preparation of langar via fire.

[jaikaara]

the philosophical meaning could be defined in many ways however havan was physically done

[dalsingh101]

Thing is, you bring up the subject you'll get a knee-jerk 'anti-bahman' response from the majority, especially those of Singh Sabha backgrounds.

Plus truth be told, if havans took place in the past they were very rare.

[dalsingh101]

Another point about havans.

If they took place in dasmesh pita's time, why hasn't Sainapati mentioned it in Gursobha? The omission is significant.

[SikhKhoj]

There is so much Sainapati hasn't mentioned, does not mean it didn't happen.

[dalsingh101]

Something as significant a havan for the Khalsa is actually what Sainapati would have written about. Especially if (as most accounts suggest), it took place over a number of days, months etc.

What other stuff are you referring to anyway?

The absence of any mention of Pir Budhhan would be one thing. What else?

[jaikaara]

i was wondering why then the word havan be used when it is so much of a taboo

[mit]

from what i know is that 'Havan' is the form of hom. as Agni (fire) is used to light the flames, that creates a cosmic force via mantras and the smoke of the havan (Swaha, which is the wife of agni), sikhs also use Hom (havan) as a form to make Langar.

[BhagatSingh]

Jaikaara

Practice of havan may have come later as there is no mention of the need to perform havan in Guru Granth Sahib. It is not important to the Bhagti Marg as the 9 ingredients of Bhagti (originally laid out by Bhagat Prehlaad) does not include it.

Dally

Does Sainapati not mention that Guru Gobind Singh ji did a havan to Devi Chandi the day before Vaisakhi at Nani Devi (located on a hill near the Anandpur fort)? That's a common belief in India.

Check this out there is a pankti in Panth Prakash by Giani Gian Singh that mentions havan: http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/14336-did-baba-deep-singh-ji-do-havan/

ਸੁਨਿ ਸਿੰਘ ਪਾਠ ਅਖੰਡ ਕਰਾਯੋ । ਹਮਨ ਕਰਯੋ ਕੰਗਨਾ ਬੰਧਵਾਯੋ ।

Edited July 23, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[dalsingh101]

Dally

Does Sainapati not mention that Guru Gobind Singh ji did a havan to Devi Chandi the day before Vaisakhi at Nani Devi (located on a hill near the Anandpur fort)? That's a common belief in India.

No he doesn't and he was a contemporary so it is significant. I know the belief of a hom for Devi was a commonly held belief that grew in strength during the 1700s well into the 1800s. I had this article by Prof. Sahib Singh discussing it. Let me see if I can find it.

Check this out there is a pankti in Panth Prakash by Giani Gian Singh that mentions havan: http://www.sikhaware...gh-ji-do-havan/

ਸੁਨਿ ਸਿੰਘ ਪਾਠ ਅਖੰਡ ਕਰਾਯੋ । ਹਮਨ ਕਰਯੋ ਕੰਗਨਾ ਬੰਧਵਾਯੋ ।

Very interesting. But bear in mind that Gian Singh was writing more than a century later.

Like you've noticed, no mention of homs as being efficacious for Sikhs exists in SGGS ji. I haven't encountered any pro hom statements in DG thus far either. If anything DG (especially in swaiyye) seems to denigrate such practices in a very general way.

Those who sit for meditation by closing both their eyes are of no use.

Those who have ablutions even in all the seven oceans would lose this as well as the

next world.

All should listen to this truth that only those who love God can realize Him.

While worshipping stones some people are bowing before them and some others are

withholding idols of stones in their necks.

Some people have faith that God is in the south while others consider God, is toward

the west and they are bowing their heads in those directions.

Some people are worshiping idols foolishly while others are adoring the dead.

The whole world is busy in such false performances without knowing the secret

mystery of God.

PS - I know the above translation isn't the best.....

It looks like a later practice initiated/conducted during troubled war times in the early 1700s?

[dalsingh101]

Prof. Sahib Singh believed that the story of Devi worship by Guru Gobind Singh was first put out in Bhai Sukha Singh's Gurbilas a hundred years after Guru ji's physical passing and that it spread from there.

I've put the article up on scribd.

Interesting point to note is how the professor is mistaken in his belief that Bhagu's Panth Prakash doesn't mention the devi narrative. We now know that his misapprehension here is more than likely to have been caused from using Bhai Vir Singh's edited version of Bhangu's work, which removed the passage.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/155484116/Devi-Pooja-and-Guru-Gobind-Singh-by-Professor-Sahib-Singh

[BhagatSingh]

Dally

That quote from DG is irrelevant as it does not mention havan.

(Btw you forgot to provide the page number and include the Gurmukhi original.)

Prof. Sahib Singh believed that the story of Devi worship by Guru Gobind Singh was first put out in Bhai Sukha Singh's Gurbilas a hundred years after Guru ji's physical passing and that it spread from there.

IF you believe that Guru Gobind Singh ji wrote Chandi di Vaar, Akal Ustat etc then the idea that he performed a havan for Devi Chandi is very plausible.

Edited July 23, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[dalsingh101]

That quote from DG is irrelevant as it does not mention havan.

(Btw you forgot to provide the page number and include the Gurmukhi original.)

My point was the general tenor, even if it doesn't specifically mention homs.

ਬਾਸ ਕੀਓ ਬਿਖਿਆਨ ਸੋ ਬੈਠ ਕੈ ਐਸੇ ਹੀ ਐਸੇ ਸੁ ਬੈਸ ਬਿਤਾਇਓ ॥

बास कीओ बिखिआन सो बैठ कै ऐसे ही ऐसे सु बैस बिताइओ ॥

He spends his life in such performing evil actions and wastes his life in such pursuits.

ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੋਂ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਿਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਕੀਓ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਇਓ ॥੯॥੨੯॥

साचु कहों सुन लेहु सभै जिन प्रेम कीओ तिन ही प्रभ पाइओ ॥९॥२९॥

I speak Truth, all should turn their ears towards it: he, who is absorbed in True Love, he would realize the Lord. 9.29.

ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਪਾਹਨ ਪੂਜ ਧਰਯੋ ਸਿਰ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਲਿੰਗ ਗਰੇ ਲਟਕਾਇਓ ॥

काहू लै पाहन पूज धरयो सिर काहू लै लिंग गरे लटकाइओ ॥

Someone worshipped stone and placed it on his head. Someone hung the phallus (lingam) from his neck.

ਕਾਹੂ ਲਖਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਅਵਾਚੀ ਦਿਸਾ ਮਹਿ ਕਾਹੂ ਪਛਾਹ ਕੋ ਸੀਸੁ ਨਿਵਾਇਓ ॥

काहू लखिओ हरि अवाची दिसा महि काहू पछाह को सीसु निवाइओ ॥

Someone visualized God in the South and someone bowed his head towards the West.

ਕੋਉ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਉ ਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥

कोउ बुतान को पूजत है पसु कोउ म्रितान को पूजन धाइओ ॥

Some fool worships the idols and someone goes to worship the dead.

ਕੂਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਉਰਿਝਓ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਜਗ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥੧੦॥੩੦॥

कूर क्रिआ उरिझओ सभ ही जग स्री भगवान को भेदु न पाइओ ॥१०॥३०॥

The whole world is entangled in false rituals and has not known the secret of Lord-God

http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=42

IF you believe that Guru Gobind Singh ji wrote Chandi di Vaar, Akal Ustat etc then the idea that he performed a havan for Devi Chandi is very plausible.

If so, it seems to go contrary to what the nine other mohallas did?

Edited July 24, 2013 by dalsingh101

[BhagatSingh]

Dally

I understood your point. Actually yeah you are right it fits right into Bhagti Marg. But I must say that the quoted text is not a rejection/denegration of the things mentioned in there because here the emphasis is on having love, ਪ੍ਰੇਮ (having ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ in your awareness). ਜਿਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਕੀਓ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਇਓ. ਪ੍ਰੇਮ always has a language, an expression, and that may well be things like murti pooja, bathing at sacred places, wearing religious necklaces etc. In other words, the ਕ੍ਰਿਆ, spiritual practice, is ਕੂਰ, false, because there is no ਪ੍ਰੇਮ, love. So murti pooja is a pooja of stones if love is not there. Bathing in sacred places is bathing in garbage dump if love is not there.... and so on. You and I are entangled in the patterns of daily life and even spiritual practice without having ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ in our awareness. Hence, ਕੂਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਉਰਿਝਓ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਜਗ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ.

If so, it seems to go contrary to what the nine other mohallas did?

Yeah havans aside the Mehelas 1-9 (1-5,9), Bhagats and Bhatts of SGGS would definitely not have written a vaar of Devi Chandi. It's out of the question.

Edited July 24, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[dalsingh101]

Firstly i was going to contest your first point above but then I realised that there is some merit in your argument when I reflected on Bhagat Dhanna who was unequivocally performing idol worship but was saved.

However, that being said I find it hard accept the notion that the Sikh way essentially involves a free for all in terms of 'rasms' i.e. religious ceremonies or customs. We have had clear rejection of certain customs for example januea threads, wearing matted locks, circumcision, fasting, pilgrimages and using idols as the focus of worship etc. Apart from the contested hom/havan (can anyone tell me if these two things are different?) of dasmesh pita. An alleged one of Baba Deep Singh and a sacrifice involving a beheaded ox on the eve of Abdali Shah's invasion - homs/havans don't appear to be common Sikh practice by any account.

Yeah havans aside the Mehelas 1-9 (1-5,9), Bhagats and Bhatts of SGGS would definitely not have written a vaar of Devi Chandi. It's out of the question.

It appears to be a matter of categorisation to me. The purpose of Chadhi's vaar was to inspire and instill martial fervour not the shaant ras of Gurbani. You should also consider the fact that Mehela 6 also did similar by employing dhadhis to sing martial ballads - so the idea behind the vaars wasn't exactly a new thing.

[BhagatSingh]

Dally

It's great that you noticed the Bhagat Dhanna ji's sakhi as that is very much part of Bhagti Marg. As you say the Bhagti marg is not a free for all in terms of the traditions involved. It is quite specific, it includes the following:

1 sarvan - listening to stories of Hari

2 kirtan- singing praises

3 simran - remembering

4 pad seva - seva of Hari's feet

5 archa - worship Hari's image

6 vandana - to bow to Hari

7 dasya - to become His servant

8 sakhya - to become His friend

9 atam nivedan - to offer prayers from the soul

and the hidden 10th is prem, which underlies the previous 9 and is entirely internal, the expression of which is 1-9. Prem is also the alignment of the internal and external spriritual practice of 1-9.

It is not the action that makes one spiritual ie pilgrimages and using idols as the focus of worship <--" these don't make anyone more or less spiritual" was the teaching of Bhagti Marg. Bhagti Marg teaches that it is Bhagti that holds spiritual value, not specific practices. Gurus and Bhagats always bringing us back to the basics, to the real purpose of spiritual practice.

We have had clear rejection of certain customs for example januea threads /snip

Janeu is a different topic, it is not a spiritual practice, it is a passport to education. Since you mentioned it in a different thread as well, let me discuss it here. Here's what Guru Nanak Dev ji says on several occasions about the janeu:

ਪਤਿ ਵਿਣੁ ਪੂਜਾ ਸਤ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਜਤ ਵਿਣੁ ਕਾਹੇ ਜਨੇਊ ॥
ਨਾਵਹੁ ਧੋਵਹੁ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਚੜਾਵਹੁ ਸੁਚ ਵਿਣੁ ਸੋਚ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੬॥

There is no worship without honour (of good deeds), no control over senses without truthfulness, and what is the janeu for without control over senses. Bathing, washing and wearing the tilak, but purity does not come without introspection.

In reply to Pandit Hardyal:

ਦਇਆ ਕਪਾਹ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸੂਤੁ ਜਤੁ ਗੰਢੀ ਸਤੁ ਵਟੁ ॥ ਏਹੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਹਈ ਤ ਪਾਡੇ ਘਤੁ ॥

Kindness the cotton, Patience the thread, control over senses the knots and truthfulness the twists of the janeu. If you have this janeu then put it on me, ie, practice kindness, patience, control and truthfulness Pandjit Hardyal ji!

What this is, is a reframing of the janeu to bring it back to the basics, to connect it back to what it originally means, and not a rejection of it. What the janeu was for was an initiation into a school for a child but not like modern day schools because this tradition dates back when education involved spiritual education and mostly spiritual education. (The education for making a living was learnt and inherited from the father ie Guru Nanak Dev ji learned to trade, which became his livelihood, from Mehta Kalu ji. This also gave him an opportunity to travel but anyways.) Thus going under the mentorship of a guru was largely spiritual in nature and all young kids went through this process. The children would undergo a ceremony where they would be given a janeu and would go through a series of other steps that were part of the ceremony. At the end of which they would go under the mentorship of a guru to learn about how to be a better person (be kind, patient, aware, etc) and to be a spiritual person (learn to control the senses, etc). They would be taught about morals and spiritual practices and this is what Guru Nanak Dev ji lays out as the underlying meaning of janeu in those panktis.

So believe it or not our gurus would have gone through this ceremony.

-----

The purpose of Chadhi's [Chandi] vaar /snip

The fact that Devi Chandi is being praised is what I am talking about.

When starting Chandi (Bhagauti) Di Vaar he says "Prithm Bhagauti Simar kai/ First I remember Sri Bhagauti". When starting Krishn Avatar does he remember Krishan ji or Sri Hari? No he maintains his allegiance to Devi Chandi and says "ਅਥ ਦੇਵੀ ਜੂ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤ ਕਥਨੰ ॥ " and goes onto praise Devi before describing Krishna's story.

PS the purpose of Dhadhis was to inspire people largely towards following Dharam. To know what they were inspiring people to do exactly would depend on what they are saying. And since we do not have their ballads from that period, we cannot really take them into consideration. Now we only have the beliefs of Guru 1-5, 9 in Guru Granth Sahib thus I would assume that 6-8 also held those beliefs. And if they did, Guru Hargobind Sahib then fought his battles and was motivated to do so without knowing any vaar of Devi Chandi. If you are a kshatriya it is your Dharam to fight.

PSS Lmao "Chadhi's vaar" Eulogy of the underwear.

Edited July 25, 2013 by BhagatSingh

[jaikaara]

Bhagatsingh veer ji ..super explanation ! ekdum kaim...! tuhaade darsan karan di chaah hai ji

[BhagatSingh]

Lol thanks. I'm glad you got something out of it veeray.

[Amarjeet Singh_1737]

Thing is, you bring up the subject you'll get a knee-jerk 'anti-bahman' response from the majority, especially those of Singh Sabha backgrounds.

Plus truth be told, if havans took place in the past they were very rare.

Are you like at war with yourself or something? You just contradicted your first statement with the second one veer ji.

[GtLoc]

It is like this, if you consider the Hindu devi who is below om or the trinity of shiv, vishu, and was it indra then you are correct that there was no haven.

However, havan to show aad shakti of akal purakh is very different. You have to understand that the British and singh sabha also had people like teja bhasuria who wanted bhagat Bani removed from guru granth sahib ji.

Also the removal of banis from Sri dasam granth sahib ji. Instead of a sikh or Hindu mentality you must look at it from gurmat.

For example ram vs ram chandar. Das does not know of sainapati but knows of rangu work. If it is inbthere, it is most likely true and you must understand gurmat for what it is.

Not a non - violent ethos, the havan is in the same tradition as shastar puja.

[Singh123456777]

Why would guru gobind Singh Ji sache patshah the tenth Nanak worship a Devi?He does praise Devi but when he means Devi he means the sword,shakti,power of god.Not the female Devi that you guys think.Guru Ji would ONLY worship the true creator.Why would guru Ji NEED to worship any Devi?