Ideal Singh Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 If God is to be believed as omnipotent and infinite... how do we interpret his origin, what created God if he is to be the believed creator of everything? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogroup singh Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 Sikhism and God In Sikhism, God is worshipped in two forms: the absolute and the personal. Sikhs believe there is a one and only absolute God with an authentic name. This Absolute God is creator in spirit, without fear, without hate, beyond time, beyond transmigration, self-existent, and can be realized with the pleasure of a true guru. Sikhs believe that before there was matter, the Absolute God was everywhere, alone in a profound trance. When the Absolute God so intended, the universe was created. In Sikhism, this is deemed the personal form of the Absolute God. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 This is my own personal manmukhi response to Amans question.If it is in any way against Sikhi, then please correct me any way you wish. :cry: Amans, you said: If God is to be believed as omnipotent and infinite... how do we interpret his origin, what created God if he is to be the believed creator of everything? First we have Vahiguru, which is also known as Ik Oankar and Parbrahm too.Now Vahiguru is not a God.According to my limited buddhi, Ik Oankar does not mean "One God," it means "One Om-Creator," or "One Cause of Om".Hence Om-kar, pronounced Oang-kaar.Om represents Brahm. Brahm is God and Goddess.You can't have God without Goddess too.Goddess exists, She is there in Gurbani.Everybody knows: "Eka Maa-i Jugat Vi-aaee, Tin Chele Parvan..." - Jap Ji Sahib "...Mata Dhart Mahat." - Slok Jap Ji Sahib The Mother exists.So what is God and what is Goddess? God is Consciousness, Goddess is Matter.Together they are manifested as Brahm.God and Goddess come from the Mystery, which is best defined as One.Neither God nor Goddess, It is both and not both.That is why it's known as Par[beyond] Brahm, Parbrahm. Vahiguru is not something that can be conceptualised, Vahiguru is beyond conceptualisation. You're confused aren't you.Well you're going to get it now: God is Vahiguru's Self, It is the Purukh.Goddess is Vahiguru's "body".Just like you have a self and a body.When Self (Consciousness) comes into contact with Nature (Matter), you get Creation. God (Consciousness) and Goddess (Matter/Nature) have always existed. Vahiguru, the Great Mystery, is beyond God and Goddess. Remember Ik Oankar does not mean "One God".The word for God in Gurmukhi is Dev.Vahiguru is not a God, Vahiguru is Beyond-God. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gurjit_sehmi Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 I see it like this….God has always been there and always will be. As humans we are too used to the concept of time passing by, and everything being created. God is beyond the dimensions of time and creation, if that makes sense. Sorry if doesnt! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K4ur Posted July 31, 2003 Report Share Posted July 31, 2003 i dont know. But goud question. I gona find that one out. Give me soe time. 8) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardu Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 .. classic question !!! Let me try to ans this, according to me. So Who created GOD?? well, No body. in fact GOD has never born... he/she need not to.... woh "Ajer hai, Ajanma hai, Amer hai"... Woh nirakaar hai.. he/she is a source of power or energy... we human being and all other living ones also have energy/power.... which keeps as moving/thinking and controlling.. but we are very small part of that Energy... Hum usi ka roop hein... us se alag kuch bhee nahi.... words like.. birth or death .. creation and distruction means to us.. not to GOD.... this is our limited brain.. who thinks that something can be created or distructed.. never.. energy is limited.. it can be transformed.. it can change the color, shape etc.. but nothing is distructed and no one dies.... it is indeed the process of changing the "aavran=Cover=Body"... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K4ur Posted August 1, 2003 Report Share Posted August 1, 2003 For the sake of getting even more complicated.... where did this energy come from? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ms514 Posted August 2, 2003 Report Share Posted August 2, 2003 Sat Sri Akal: "aad aneel anaad anaahat jug jug ayko vays. ||31|| The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same. ||31|| " Japji Sahib. Sorry folks, the creator has always been there, even before the creation. Tough concept to swallow for finite beings that we humans are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardu Posted August 4, 2003 Report Share Posted August 4, 2003 For the sake of getting even more complicated.... where did this energy come from? I don't know!! no body knows!!!! This is that BIG question!!! IT was the answer of this question only.. who made nanak.. Guru Nanak Dev ji.. its only that secret who.. made siddharth.. Gautham Budha.. but yes.. the energy is there.... the one who can reveal its whereabout... becomes... GOD-like.. (not the GOD/energy)... and its not complicated.. infact it is plain and simple... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karamvir Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Sat sri akal Well I am sorry to hear taht all of yuo dont know your moolmantar. In my household taht is taught seriously. Matter of fact we believe that rest of the Granth Sahib Ji is written to explain Moolmantar and japuji Sahib. Ik onkaar=God is one! Not many! satnam=He is the only realty! Ultimate realty! Ultimate truth! Karta Purakh=Creator Nirbhao=without fear =He wont send yuo to hell or crack whips nirwair=he has no grudges-it is actually YOUR life- akkal moorat=he is present before time. HE is timeless Ajuni=he is formless-He is not born and does not come in human or any form SAIBHANG!!!!!!!!! He is self created! Guru ji told us this and when we understand this we will be enlightened liek the guru ji! Gurparsaad! He is attained by HIS own grace on us! JApu--so recite aad sach=he was true before time jugaad sach=he was true in past hai bhee sach--=he is true NOW nanak hosi bhee sach=nanak says he will also be true in future. I am a SIKH coz I believe my Guru Ji! karamvir singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjj Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Aad Sach Juggaad Sach. Immortal. Self-Existent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted August 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Then why is God so egoistic that he doesnt show up when we yearn for him... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 ideal singh - wat kinda view is that??? u wish to see god but u dont have full faith in him - u call him egotistical - u question his presence and your trying to understand soemthing which u are no where near ready to contemplate.. when we conquer our 5 vices. become one with waheguru then we will see - feel - breathe - and live every second in the charna of waheguru seeing their presence everywhere 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Can God commit suicide? If he can't that means he's not Almighty then innit :wink: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darshan kaur Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Can God commit suicide? If he can't that means he's not Almighty then innit Vahiguru is Parbrahm Parmesar.Paar-Brahm, Beyond-Brahm.When we talk of Almighty, we think of Vahiguru's might in human concepts, which is inadequate to understand the Might of Vahiguru.Vahiguru's Might is beyond might, so to speak.Beyond Almighty-ness. That is why we say Paar-Brahm, Beyond-Brahm, Beyond-Almighty-ness.I mean if might doesn't actually exist, then the answer to your question, lalleshvari is a non sequitur.You asked a logical question lalleshvari, but if I could put into words my answer, nobody would understand it :shock: :? :stupid: So the answer to your question is: Man meek qweek, deek fleek gheet0yu304g50ghohlo4u904jgdfl :stan: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted August 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 ideal singh - wat kinda view is that??? u wish to see god but u dont have full faith in him - u call him egotistical - u question his presence and your trying to understand soemthing which u are no where near ready to contemplate.. when we conquer our 5 vices. become one with waheguru then we will see - feel - breathe - and live every second in the charna of waheguru seeing their presence everywhere Why whatz problem with this view... This is a simple question... And as is motive of this forum... we are seekers of Truth... so this question is valid... why does God not show up as soon as we yearn for him... Well if we are aware that we can meet God if we conquer 5 vices then who is stopping us from doing it... :evil: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 A man is in the barbershop getting his weekly haircut. As per usual, he starts having a discussion with him, and also, as per usual, the conversation leads to Religion and God. "There's no such thing as God!", the barber said. "why do you say that?", said the man "well, think about it. Look all over the world. Loook in Africa. How much poverty there is, homelessness. Disease. AIDS. Everything! What kind of God lets that happen to His children??" the man was kept silent by this theory. After his haircut was complete, he paid and left the parlour. As he was walking down the street, hethought of something. He rushed back into the parlour, and resumed the conversation, and said: "There's no such things as Barbers!" at this, the barber was shocked, and he said "well, look here! I'm a barber, how can you say there's no such thing as barbers??" "Look outside. Look how many bearded men with long hair you see! there's obviously no barbers!" the barber replied: "that's just because they choose not to come and find me to cut their hair for them." the man says: "YES! EXACTLY! if you don't go looking for God, how is he supposed to anything for you?? Those men may want their hair cut, but until they come and find you, it's not going to happen! Same for Gods children. They have to go find him, before he can do anything for you. There is a God. It's up to us to find him!" with that the man left the barber with a smile on his face. IDEAL: Obviously God's not jus gonna do everything you say. That's too easy, don't you think? You have to find him like everyone else. Just because it doesn't happen for you, it does'nt meant it doesn't happen for everyone else. There's so many people who have had Guruji's darshan, or they are in such Chardi Kalaa, that things just happen for them. It's years of dedication, and definitely, karma has a role. THIS is why God isn't selfish or egotistical, but rather, you are, demanding he be there for you all the time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjj Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Then why is God so egoistic that he doesnt show up when we yearn for him... I asked this questiont o my uncle also but in a different way. That when Bhagat Dhanna was asking for darshan he didnt get it, but he got it only when he decided to commit sucide by not eating. My uncle explained me that we are not yearning for God. we are only deciding to yearn for Him. We are only in the decision stage ! but when we take that ONE STEP towards Him. Then we will get His Darshan. secondly, the other question asked about God commiting suicide, really stupid question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karamvir Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 sat sri akal Why can't God committ suicide? God is never born and never dies. HE was here before time and will be here after time. Why wont God show up when we yearn for him/ He is not a bell boy. He also will show up when yuo deserve Him. If a sinnner like me says I am going to kill myslef if yuo dont show up-I am sure He wont. Bhagat Dhana was His Bhagat and very stubborn. He saw a pundit wash his god and Bhagat Ji said I will get a stone bigger than him--just a stone and washed it and worshiped it in total love. Point is If yuo love him as dear as your life he is everywhere and he will show himself. BUT to get to that point is very hard. Aint it boys! :twisted: karamvir singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sardu Posted August 23, 2003 Report Share Posted August 23, 2003 Can God commit suicide? If he can't that means he's not Almighty then innit :wink: Good Question!!! Please don't mind my words/language as i am not the best chooser.. but in answer to this question i would say that i just show that u still need to be mature. . as Hari said, Birth and Death matters for we humans not for that almighty... sat sri akal Why can't God committ suicide? God is never born and never dies. HE was here before time and will be here after time. Why wont God show up when we yearn for him/ He is not a bell boy. He also will show up when yuo deserve Him. If a sinnner like me says I am going to kill myslef if yuo dont show up-I am sure He wont. Bhagat Dhana was His Bhagat and very stubborn. He saw a pundit wash his god and Bhagat Ji said I will get a stone bigger than him--just a stone and washed it and worshiped it in total love. Point is If yuo love him as dear as your life he is everywhere and he will show himself. BUT to get to that point is very hard. Aint it boys! :twisted: karamvir singh Nice!! Very Nice answers!!! I agree to most of it!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted August 24, 2003 Report Share Posted August 24, 2003 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Just my opinion. Before creation God was there in a transcendent ( Nirgun )form, ie beyond time and space. By the process of creation God also assumed the Immanent ( Sagun ) form ie existing in creation. We worship the transcendent aspect of God because we know God by his qualities such as Kartar ( Creator ). In the end when the whole play has run it's course the whole of creation will again merge into the transcendent God. The question of who created God is a question based on our own human limitations. We assume that since we see things created in our everyday lives then everything necessarily must have a creator. Our limitation is that we assume that the our understanding of the workings of creation also apply to the creator himself. Lallesvari Interesting question. Seem to have read that once in some highbrow philosophy book, that was before I put it back on the library shelf go gather more dust. Again our greatest limitation is our desire to ascribe what we see in everyday life to our view of God. Can God commit suicide ?. Surely a being that is not created can then by the same defination not be destroyed ?. or am I now also guilty of using human logic in matters of the divine ?. Ideal Singh Then why is God so egoistic that he doesnt show up when we yearn for him... There are two ways to answer this question. If you want to look upon God in his transcendent aspect then only one who has truly earned his darshan gets it. If you think that you deserve his darshan than you only have to ask and he will give you his darshan. But like I said only if you truely deserve it. Another way to look at this is that you already have darshan of God everyday. In his immanant aspect he is around you in each and every thing he has created. GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 Like christians have beleive of Adam and Eve were first god made human on this earth. Whats the sikh perspective?? I read mythical story of the Goddess Chandi. But it was written in very advanced scholary english language. My pendu english cant understand that far. so if someone willing to take this seeva to explain sikh perspective of God's creation of human in satyuga that be great 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 Then why is God so egoistic that he doesnt show up when we yearn for him... God is NOT egoistic. Its because we are doing it wrong. Because you suppose to start bhakti from "sirgun" form (Between Sikh and Guroo) and end up in nirgun form by merging with anand da sagar vaheguroo. Na roop Na rang(Read Jaap sahib). All these mahapursh's were like an water in an pot floatin on an oceaN OF Hapiness when they pass away. Pot breaks and water merges with an ocean and become one with ocean of peace mind. I shall say infinite peace of mind. There is no and i meant no difference you can tell between the water in a pot and water on an ocean after merging with each other. Thats why gurbani says "Jis Maran Jhagat Daraie, Mera mann anand maran hii paaie poooormanand" (Bhagat Kabir) This death that world afraid of, My mind is in peace; Death is the only way where we can get infinte peace of mind Also there are three type of people in this world- One who need just an dip of water(hapiness) Second who have a desire of gettin an river[Nahair] (hapiness) Third who have a desire of gettin an whole ocean(samundar of hapiness) According to these types one individual does serve the divine. And they get whatever they have worked for. Jis tera sikh dii bhavna guroo vaal, ustra faaal mill janda haa. Bhai Mardana nuoo guroo nanak dev maharaj nuoo mahapursh kar kaie jataaya. Bhai Mardanana mahapursh baan gaya. Bhai lehna ji neh guroo nanak maharaj nuoo guroo kar kaie jaataya. Bhai lehna ji guroo angad baan gaya. Jis tera sikh dii bhavna hundii aaa ustra aa baan janda haan. Apni Bhavna naura luooo. Jis tera guroo nouo dekhan ooo gaie ustra guroo dekhan lag jaan gayie [Taken from jathedar mahinder singh maharaj rara sahib tape from jarg] What you reap; you sow (Guroo nanak sahib) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 Like christians have beleive of Adam and Eve were first god made human on this earth. Whats the sikh perspective?? I read mythical story of the Goddess Chandi. But it was written in very advanced scholary english language. My pendu english cant understand that far. so if someone willing to take this seeva to explain sikh perspective of God's creation of human in satyuga that be great Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh N30 Singh We should not compare the theory of creation from the semitic religion with what the Guru Granth Sahib teaches us. In the semitic religions God before creation was subject to time. For the Jewish prophets the concept of time was not a human creation but also applied to the period before creation. Although all three semitic religions now apply time and space as being created with creation. This has been a recent development in these religions based on what science has discovered. Guru Nanak in Japji Sahib makes a point about these beliefs amongst the Muslims and the Hindus as well. Kavan su vela vakht kavan kavan thithi kavan vaar Kavan si rutti mah kavan jit hoia aakaar vel na paiea panditi ji hoveh lekh puran vakht na paieo kaadian ji likhan lehk kuran thithi vaar na jogi jaane rutt mah na koi ja karta sirthi ko saaje aapey janney soi Japji Sahib Pauri 21 What was the hour and the occasion What was the date and the day What was the season and the month When creation began ? had Brahmins found the answers It would have been recorded in the Purans The Kazis also have not been able to discover the time in order to record it in the koran. The yogi knows not the date and day the season or month The creator of the universe alone knows the answer. The literal meaning of this pauri is that it is foolish for man to try and guess when the creation was created. Only God can truely know the answer. In another sense it also criticises the holy books for making claims to know everything about God yet their attempt to explain creation is faulty. The Guru uses the logic of the other religions view of creation and then challenges it. Since time begun as a consequence of creation, then there can be no season or day when creation begun. GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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