Question on teaching of ghatka shastervidia?

malwadoabamajha · August 6, 2003

hi i found this on the akj forum, not out of spite i put this here so please take a breather, for a question that is troubling my mind. The post has raised a question about nihung policy on the teaching of ghatka shastervidia to anyone regardless of race colour creed. If people from other backgrounds wud use this art back on sikhs shud it be taught to anyone???

http://www.akj.org/phorum/read.php?f=3&i=9664&t=9664

bravekhalsa

Date: 08-04-03 21:01

I don't if this story is relevant to this but when I was in India I learnt some Gatka from this singh. One day I brought along a hindu friend of mine(he was my best friend) to the Akhara. And I asked my teacher if my friend could learn too. My friend is very nice not like other hindus. But my teacher refused and humiliated him by making fun of his last name which was "soori". He didn't have to make fun of him. But anyway I asked my teacher the next day why did he refuse to teach him. He said that before 1984 some nihang singhs had hindu friends and they taught them gatka. and during the Riots of 84 these same hindu friends attacked the singhs and used the same gatka skills on their teachers to beat and kill them.

I know even tho this story only talks about hindus but not every mona is not gona come into sikhi just by learning gatka. thing is some monay people just want to learn it cuz gatka is a cool martial art. according to some " its a punjabi martial arts" but Guru Hargobind Sahib Jee invented it to teach his sikhs only. Its not only a physical but spirtual/mental technique of fighting. We need to keep the religious value of it. Other wise it might end up people teaching gatka in shops like other martial arts.

forgive me if I said anything wrong.

August 7, 2003

Well Guru ji gave this vidya to everyone without any descrimination of caste, race etc. You can see the greatness of Sikhism that Gurus have 4 doors at Darbar Sahib ( Golden Temple) so it reflects that Gurus were not biased towards anyone.

Now I don't think Gurus will do the samething as that gatka teacher did to that Hindu friend of yours. I can recall complaint was made that Bhai Ghanayia ji was serving water to enemies and when they summoned to birng him front of Guru ji below is the story.

During the frequent sallies and skirmishes, Bhai Kanhaiya used to roam around serving water to the wounded and the dying without distinction of friend and foe. Some Sikhs complained to Guru Gobind Singh that Kanhaiya had been resuscitating the fallen enemy soldiers. As Guru Gobind Singh summoned Bhat Kanhaiya and told him What the Sikhs had said, he spoke, "Yes, my Lord, what they said is true in a sense, but I saw no Mughals or Sikhs in the battlefield. I only saw the Guru's face in everyone. " The Guru, pleased with the reply, blessed him and told his Sikhs that Kanhaiya had understood his teaching correctly. Guru also give him medicine to be put on the wounds of fallen soldiers(Sikhs and Enemies).

Guru Gobind Singh ji: "All Human races are same"

So, I think he might be sikh with limited knowledge or taught biased knowledge of sikhism. Sikhism is open to all Dharam and there is no descrimination. Sikhism is universal so one community, caste can't be authority of Sikhism.

Narsingha · August 7, 2003

Firstly, there is a distinction between GATKA and SHASTAR VIDIYA. (see www.shastarvidiya.org for the FACTS).

In brief:

GATKA = circus act (origins approx. mid 1800s) - no lineage = fake

SANATAN SIKH SHASHTAR VIDIYA = the real battle art with a LINEAGE

Modern Gatka groups have hijacked the term "Shastar Vidiya" (as soon as it became a "buzz word") and have started calling their circus act Shastar Vidiya. If you compare gatka and the real Shastar Vidiya, anyone will be able to tell what is the real deal, and what isnt (and you do not need a background in martial arts to distinguish this either).

The reason for www.shastarvidiya.org is to put clear the distinction between Gatka and Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya. We present EVIDENCE, HISTORICAL FACTS, TRANSCRIPTS from Shastar Vidiya practitioners and allow the public to make their OWN decision as to what they consider to be the authentic product. If they disagree, they can come forward with their evidence, facts, etc to prove us wrong. Slander, spreading gossip, etc arent the actions of Sikhs.

If you dont accept these facts, that your choice, but when someday you may need the skills, you will realise which will work, Gatka, or Shastar Vidiya.

Such lies simply PROVE how the AKJ are so PETRIFIED of Nihang Singhs. It appears from the facts, that all it takes is 1 or 2 Nihang Singhs (who havent even made much of an effort as yet cuz of our time restrictions) to put the wind up the entire AKJ on 5 continents.

The AKJ response to the facts presented on www.shastarvidiya.org and www.sarbloh.info is to make up a bunch of lies, attempt to malign people's reputations, issue death threats via email, make malicious fone calls, and worst of all, accuse us of shopping at Sainsbury's Supermarket!!!! :roll: . They accuse us of not being Gursikhs, yet, ironically, they themselves have revealed that they are no better than school-yard bullies and fanatics.

However, they do not realise, Nihangs enjoy people slandering them...for it motivates them more. The AKJ accuse the Nihang Singhs of "insulting" Bhai Randhir Singh, and Bhai Fauja Singh. We have already proved on this forum that Bhai Randhir Singh was proved WRONG with regards to his views on Chatka, and Bhai Fauja Singh was wrong with his views to regards to Gatka. We have not insulted their character, nor questioned their faith to Vaaheguroo, nor questioned their service to Sikhi.

Proving an individual wrong does not mean one has "insulted" their character. Making up lies, slander, gossip, false accusations is INSULTING people.

According to article posted on AKj forum it will have u believe that within the Akharas:

a) Nihangs are promoting drugs

Nihangs are promoting meat eating

c) Nihangs are preaching Sanatan Sikhi and what the AKj term "Nihangism"

d) Nihangs have no knowledge of kirtan, santhia, and dont do amrit sanchaars

e) One individual even started taking heroine

f) Nihangs are out to manipulate people

g) Nihangs are paranoid about the AKJ

Now, lets deal with these point by point LOGICALLY (something it appears the Jagjit Singh has no knowledge about). I say this given the actions of individuals such as Jagjit Singh, not as a simple attempt to slander them.

I will address these points as they have a bearing on Shastar Vidiya....Please note, I dont wish to address Jagjit's accusations against myself or Nihang Niddar Singh simply to clear our names. The AKJ can slander us as individuals all they wish, that doesnt bother us at all.It is for the sake of Shastar Vidiya I wish to make the following points...

a) If Nihangs are "promoting drugs" as AKJ claim, then why have we not been able to convince the Udasis, Seva Panthis and Nirmala Sampardyas to take drugs, as they have been associating with Nihangs for over 300 years now. They would be vicious drug takers shud the AKJ "theory" be put to use. Also, as will be evident to anyone who actually sees Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya in action, being doped up on drugs will ruin co-ordination, and make you a danger to yourself and others. Also, gurudwaras in Punjab would now be serving cannabis to EVERYONE and FORCING them to take it, and every so often, and, according to the AKJ theory, there wud also be the odd heroine addict popping along. :roll:

Once again, if Nihangs are promoting meat eating, then it follows, we should have made the Udasis, Seva Panthis and Nirmalas all avid carnivores over the last 300 years of interaction. In addition, goats would be rare in Punjab as the Missl period was run entirely by meat-eating Nihangs, and the whole of Punjab would now be carnivores. So too, every Gurudwara in Punjab, which was once run by either one of the 4 Sanatan Sampardas would also be serving meat and FORCING EVERYONE to take it (...according to the mystical theories of Jagjit Singh)

c) Nihangs, and the other 3 Sanatan Sikh Sampardas do not PREACH in the western sense. We do not seek "followers", nor do we wish to "convert" people. As would be evident to ANYONE reading and UNDERSTANDING www.sarbloh.info, we do not CARE what faith you belong to, or your dietary habits, or what you look like, or what your social habits are, or indeed what ur sexual preferences are, or whether you keep your hair or not. This is down to your KARAMS and KIRPA (deeds, destiny and blessing from the Almighty). We encourage DHARAM (righteousness). Just because the Almighty put us within Sanatan Sikhi, we do not tell everyone else to do the same, in fact, as Akali Guru Nanak Devji did, we encourage people to be TRUE to themselves and the faith they adhere to, be it Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Eskimo, etc. The accusation that we are preaching "Nihangism" falls flat on its face should anyone understand Sanatan Sikhi, which is TRUE to the Guru's words. Its clear ppl such as Jagjit Singh lack the ability to read and comprehend basic English from his little outburst.

d) The AKJ accuse myself and Nihang Niddar Singh of not possessing any knowledge of kirtan, santhia and not doing amrit sanchaars. An interesting comment from those who do not even know us as individuals. They even bless me with being intelligent, however, those who know me would disagree on that point :LOL: Needless to say, the speciality of the Nihangs behind www.shastarvidiya.org, and www.sarbloh.info (for the moment) is Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya. Nihangs specialise in various fields, but are AWARE of the knowledge within other fields (eg, kirtan, santhia, etc). Just because we practice Shastar Vidiya does not mean we are not aware of the knowledge of Kirtan, Santhia, Ithihas, etc. Due to the depth of traditional knowledge, one has to specialise in a field in order to be competent at it. There are few who can become masters of all knowledge (that is due to Almighty's blessing). We have Nihangs who are experts in Santhia, Ithihas, Kirtan, Ayurdeva, Horseriding, Architecture, etc etc, and today, we have Nihang Singhs who are expert accountants, IT specialists, doctors, etc etc. The difference is, we, as Sanatan Sikhs, understand our limitations as to what we are capable of, and do the BEST we can with the skills the Almighty has given us. The Udasis, Nirmalas, Seva Panthis also possess a VAST array of wisdom, and that is why they exist. Knowledge is SPREAD over the ENTIRE Sanatan world, and isnt limited to Nihangs. Compared to Nirmalas (intellectuals), Nihangs come across pretty dopey. So, if one seeks intellectual conversation at a high degree, they shud seek a Nirmala. The 4 Sanatan groups work together as a network of wisdom...but NONE enforces its views on anyone, nor does it promote baseless opinion or subjective thought. This is anti-Gurmat. For example, I would easily pick up a Vaaja and attempt to do kirtan, however, as I am not trained in Raags (which is how Kirtan should be done according to Guru's Hukam), I would leave this to others who are knowledgable in Raags rather than INSULT Guruji's baani by doing kirtan on a tune of a 1960's Hindi film song.

e) Jagjit Singh's accusation of Nihangs being responsible for heroine addicts seems to be his imagination playing overtime as Nihangs themselves abstain from injecting or smoking anything for pleasure

f) Nihang Singhs, as warriors, have at their disposal methods of mind manipulation, and psychological warfare, etc etc. These arise from contemplation of wisdom in Dasam and Sarbloh Guru Durbar that teaches a warrior the skills needed on the battlefield (mental and otherwise). To say Nihangs do not manipulate anyone period, is incorrect. However, we should speak of the right context. Nihangs utilise mind manipulation when seeking to defeat an ENEMY. This is Gurmat (as Guruji speaks of using them within Dasam Guru Durbar, indeed Charitropakhyaan is devoted to teaching these skills to warriors). Using these skills for ANY other use would be anti-Gurmat. We cannot vouch for all Nihang Singhs, as we have rogue elements within every army. However, those who abuse them have Guru Maharaj to answer to.

g) Nihangs are not paranoid about the AKJ, indeed, the facts seem to suggest the opposite is true. We are revealing FACTS that have been surpressed about Sanatan Sikhi over the last 200 yrs, and revealing the LIES spoken by certain individuals that are being promoted as TRUTH. The AKJ are simply victims of the evidence presented.

With regards to Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya Savya Rakshah, these are the facts:

a) the knowledge is open to ALL of sound mind and body REGARDLESS of faith, creed, colour, appearance, sexual preferences, gender, dietary preferences, haircuts or not. Those wishing of learning the knowledge have to adhere to the rules of the Akhara (we will be adding these to www.shastarvidiya.org soon for all to see). The rules are there to protect the knowledge from being abused, and are not there to prevent people from learning. We belive its the basic right of any law abiding individual to learn how to protect themselves and their loved ones.

for anyone visiting ANY of the Akharas where Shastar Vidiya Savya Rakhsha is taught, they will realise NO Nihang Maryada is spoken of. However, shud anyone be interested, they can either speak to someone AFTER the Akhara OUTSIDE the Akhara, or, they can visit the websites. It is AGAINST Gurmat to force anyone to accept everything about Nihangs as 99% of the people attending the Akharas are NOT even AWARE of Sanatan Sikhi. We have SGPC Sikhs, Taksali Singhs, Naamdharis, Ramgharia Sikhs, Bhatra Sikhs, Khatri Sikhs (eg, myself), Jatt Sikhs, Ravidasia Sikhs, and even AKJ Sikhs coming to learn the knowledge, and a HUGE number of Sikhs with haircuts, trimmed beards, earings, etc. We will be putting up videos and photos of the Akharas and students, with interviews on www.shastarvidiya.org to show this. We are not worried about their affiliations, or appearances, or social habits of people as long as they are WITHIN the law of the land, and these people are not loose cannons and dont abuse the knowledge for personal gain, eg, bullying, streetfights, gang warfare (thats why the Rules of the Akharas exist, to stop this from happening)

c) No Drugs/meat/smoking exist within the Akharas. Traditionally, a protein drink called "Sardai" used to be prepared made from Almonds, black pepper, sugar, rose petals, couscous and water. This drink is taken by anyone who wants to take it. This is the desi equivalent of modern day body building drinks and milkshakes. There are no drugs...not mild stimulants such as tea.

d) this knowledge is SIKH, and is TAUGHT BY Sikhs. It is a pathetic picture that Sikhs (i use this term based upon their actions) such as Jajit "Singh" and Co, are trying to prevent their OWN community from learning Savya Rakshah simply because they have a personal issue with Nihangs and have allowed their narrow minded prejudice to get in the way of Gurmatta. Instead, the AKJ wish to promote Gatka...a circus act that cannot realistically be used in a REAL situation (and even that, they only wish to teach Gursikhs...ie, AKJ Amritdharis who have taken the "true" amrit according to AKJ ideology).

e) Amongst SIKHS, we promote respect for Sarbloh, the martial designation for Vaaheguroo, manifest in weapons, as they exist to uphold Dharam (righteousness), and as such, the Sikhs are encouraged (not forced) to respect ALL weapons (as Akali Nihang Guru Gobind Singh ji speaks of in Shastar Naam Maala, Dasam Guru Durbar). If we, as Sikhs respect weapons, the weapons in turn look after us when we need their help (as speaks Akaal Ustat, Dasam Guru Durbar).

f) Amongst women (..again, all faiths, creeds, appearances, etc etc), they are taught how to deal with psychology of being attacked, as a woman is emotionally more senstive than men (well, thats the general rule..). They are also taught techniques to prevent extreme situations such as Rape, Assault, etc.

g) Stories from ancient texts are spoken of to substantiate the techniques being taught, and to show that they worked in the past. We provide Evidence and Proof as much as we can to substantiate the validity of the techniques. NOTE:there is no banging of blunt swords on shields, no dancing to strobe lights and dhols, no sneaking up on innocent bananas while blindfolded in an attempt to chop it with a huge Chinese Sword.

h) The Akharas utilise a LOT of Punjabi terminology (in fact ALL Shastar Vidiya terminology is in PUNJABI!!!!), and as such, one learns more about Punjabi Sabiachaar (culture and heritage) which improves their spoken and written punjabi, and also learns to respect the rich heritage of Punjab. These are by-products of teaching Savya Rakhshah. For those not wanting to know, they dont have to...they can turn a blind eye to these if they wish...its an individual choice.

i) We encourage people to question, contemplate, practice, and study the techniques (and/or ideology) and their relevance to real-life situations. As such, we promote THINKING and not fearing the TRUTH, and also learning to SPEAK ONE's MIND and being HONEST with one's self and others. We also encourage people not to blindly accept everything we (or anyone else) says without questioning the authenticity of the information they are given. Any TRUE Knowldge will withstand any scrutiny. If it doesnt, then it fails. The Shastar Vidiya itself has withstood all forms of attack, and, has been a proven battle artform. Ask a gatka player how many times the banana he's chopping while blindfolded actually fought back!!

As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

So, rather than place your faith in rumours and slander propagated by individuals, come see for yourself what the Akharas are about.

Turn up once, and if you're not happy, leave. The worst that can happen is that you spend an hour learning something that can one day save your life.

-- -----------------------------------------------

Wolverhampton Akhara

Guru Tegh Bahadur Gurdwara

Upper Villiers Street

Blakenhall

Wolverhampton

Saturday

2-3pm women/kids

3-4pm men

Coventry Akhara

Guru Nanak Parkash Gurdwara

71-81 Harnall Lane West

Hillfields

coventry

Thursday

6-7pm women/kids

7-8pm men

Birmingham Akhara

Namdari gurdwara

On A45 coventry road

(full address I don't know)

Monday

6-7pm women/kids

7-8.30pm men

Slough Akhara

Ramgharia gurdwara

Woodlands Ave

Slough, SL1

Sunday

1-2pm women/kids

2-3.30pm men

*for the record, the venue for the Slough Akhara is STILL the Gurudwara unless stated otherwise in the future contrary to the rumour propagated by the AKJ individuals. The Gurudwara Committee is undecided whether to allow the classes to continue as they wish not to aggrevate people unnecessarily.

Should the Sangat wish to learn the art of Shastar Vidiya Savya Rakhshah, we ask them to make their voices heard and approach the committes of their local Gurudwaras and we WILL try our best to turn up.

This is YOUR vidiya, if you want it, all u have to do is make ur wishes known. If people have nothing better to do than knock the knowledge before even attempting it, then, may their ignorance become their guide...good luck to them.

Nihang Niddar Singh is currently in New York attending a Gurmat Camp where he was invited to speak on Shastar Vidiya and hold classes. He will be back on Sunday 10th August.

I will not be replying any more to any queries here with regards to Shastar Vidiya or Sanatan Sikhi (due to obvious reasons), so if you need more info, either visit one of the Akharas, or visit www.shastarvidiya.org or email info@shastarvidiya.org

sidak · August 7, 2003

I will not be replying any more to any queries here with regards to Shastar Vidiya or Sanatan Sikhi (due to obvious reasons),

The only obvious thing is that you're unwilling (or maybe unable, since your Gurdev is away in the Big Apple) to answer even the most simple questions from non-AKJ indivduals.

I recall Bikramjit Singh posed a question about the prefix "Akali" that you use for Guru Nanak at shastarvidiya.org and sarbloh.info ... and other than telling us that you were in the process of writing a 'lekh', there has been no response of note. the fact you're still in the process of writing this 'lekh' indicates you hadn't actually conducted any research regarding this issue at the time of writing the websites - doesnt that violate your golden principle of always backing up any claims you make on the website ?

since you always trumpet on about producing FACTUAL EVIDENCE blah blah blah, shouldn't you remove all references to "akali guru nanak" from the sites until you CAN actually provide those historial references, or is this another instance of shifting the goalposts ?

Additionally, I asked about the minimum age requirement to initiate into the Budha Dal - pretty simple question right ? Surely you would know since you claim to be a part of the Dal.

GurFateh!

August 7, 2003

will not be replying any more to any queries here with regards to Shastar Vidiya or Sanatan Sikhi (due to obvious reasons), so if you need more info, either visit one of the Akharas, or visit www.shastarvidiya.org or email info@shastarvidiya.org

Narsingha, I have edited the names you have used because I don't have time to deal with name calling contest. I'm allowing your post as response to AKJ forum post but not those names you have used and also made some modification so your post don't cause any conflicts.

Also, I feel your post is more suitable for following thread not for this one. So, you might want to post it over there.

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=1551

You can send me PM if you have any concerns.

Thanks!

malwadoabamajha · August 9, 2003

thank you sangatoh for your replies and you narsingha for the time and effort you have taken in your response however i wish to ask you how do you feel about shastervidia beingtaught to anyone regardless of race colour creed if people from different religionms creeds etc would use it against sikhs from the example of the first post (hats if it is true).

malwadoabamajha · August 9, 2003

ok no probs il email the shastervidia site and ask them i just noticed your message you wont be posting on this topic further.

Narsingha · August 20, 2003

Details of Current Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya Savya Rakhshah Akharas in the UK

Savya Rakshah Akharas (traditional Indian self-defence training centres) in England.

Savya Rakshah is the branch of Sanatan Sikh Shastar Vidiya (traditional combat battle arts) that deals with non-offensive self defence designed to be effective in ALL situations.

What's on offer?

- The most practical self-defence classes you will ever attend.

- The opportunity to learn about the amazing warrior traditions of the Punjab, a branch of knowledge now virtually extinct.

- Classes are taught in both English and Punjabi (so no need to worry about language barriers).

Who can attend?

ANY law abiding citizen of sound mind and body regardless of faith, creed, colour, caste, or socio-economic status may attend the classes.

Where and when will the classes be held?

Classes are run as follows

WOLVERHAMPTON (Sundays 2pm - 4.30pm)

Location: Guru Tegh Bahadur Gurdwara, Upper Villiers Street,Blakenhall,Wolverhampton

* 2pm - 3pm for women and children aged 7-15 yrs