Authencity Of 52 Hakums Of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji- Split Topic Discussion

[chatanga1]

In my opinion when the nihangs had to escape persecution and gave the gurdwaras to the Hindu mahants

They were not Hindus and not Mahants. Mahant-dom came during a later phase of the degeneratyion of the Udasi Samprdaye.

Think about it, on the one hand we fondly quote 52 hukams whereby Guru Ji says don't place authority in non-Sikh hands.

There were many Hindus active in the persecution of Sikhs in that century(same as the other centuries).

There were many Hindus who fought on the moghal side against the Sikhs in that century.

Edited November 18, 2014 by chatanga1

[dalsingh101]

Think about it, on the one hand we fondly quote 52 hukams whereby Guru Ji says don't place authority in non-Sikh hands.

And I guess you've never actually spent any time pondering the provenance of the so-called 52 hukums?

Just looks like a modern collection of random extracts to me.

[savinderpalsingh]

waheguru your tark pana amusses me, you now even doubt the 52 hukams? waheguru

[Anandpuria]

Which is the earliest reference about 52 Bachans to really convince ourselves that it is really Guruji's. First time I came across these was in Amritsar plastered on street walls during few weeks after Blue Star. Any clue on historiography of these modern looking numbered lines.

[dalsingh101]

waheguru your tark pana amusses me, you now even doubt the 52 hukams? waheguru

Let's get it straight. I'm not saying that the 52 hukams don't mostly (or maybe even all) come from puratan manuscripts. It's just no one has ever shown that we have a puratan manuscript that has collected these 52 hukams in the same way the English translation (that floats about on the net) has.

Now, if you are aware of the a 52 hukam Gurmukhi manuscript, I'd genuinely love for you to share this information.

[chatanga1]

And I guess you've never actually spent any time pondering the provenance of the so-called 52 hukums?

no i haven't.

I'm still undecided with it as a text, but used it here because it is used as guidance by Sikhs. I was asking the other poster how it fitted in with what he beleived about "hindu mahants".

[savinderpalsingh]

Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Sikh Guru, before leaving for the heavenly abode, had given some instructions to his followers present at Nanded in 1708. Baba Ram Singh Koer Ji, the great-grandson of Baba Buddha Ji wrote down these injunctions, which have fortunately come to us through an old manuscript.The author elaborates these 52 commandments in the light of Gurbani. Hence the book provides a comprehensive critique on the Sikh way of life prescribed by the tenth Guru Himself

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:i-gEG8XcL-MJ:www.sikhbookshelf.com/products/fifty-two-commandments-of-guru-gobind-singh+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk

[Anandpuria]

While studying all the sources available on the descendents of Baba Buddhaji particularly those living at Jhande Ramdas for a different project I never came across any mention of these bachans or anything like that. There is detail given of Bhai Ram Kaur's return from Nander alongwith his mother who had gone to bring him back with Guruji's permission. However there is no mention of any bachans. It in my opinion is a very recent creation..

[savinderpalsingh]

but they are all match rehatnama's and the sakh from Sri Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji

[dalsingh101]

Thing is: if you pick and choose rehat injunctions you can easily create a certain impression that might not correspond to the original sources.

[Tandoori_Singh]

The people who question the authenticity of the 52 Hukams of Guru Gobind Singh Ji are probably the same people who question the validity of Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth. These people are known as troublemakers and retards.

Guru Gobind left his Khalsa with all the tools to ensure their survival and victories until the end of time. A simple list of concrete commandments is the very least he could do.

I see nothing in the Hukams that contradicts any other aspect of Sikhi, and his advice is beyond priceless.

As an example...

26.

Sugandh (kasam sahu) dae kar itbaar janaaoun vaalae tae yakeen nahee karnaa|
Have no faith in oaths sworn by one attempting to convince another of sincerity.

27.

Sutantar vicharna. Raaj Kaaj dian kamaan tae doosrae mutaa dia purshaan noo huk nahee daenaa|
Maintain independent rule. In the affairs of governing, do not give the power of religious authority to those of other faiths.

28.

Raajnitee parhnee|
Study and learn about governmental policies.

If we followed these Hukams in 1947, Sikhs today would be FAR more successful than we currently are. There would be 100's of millions of Sikhs by now.

[dalsingh101]

The people who question the authenticity of the 52 Hukams of Guru Gobind Singh Ji are probably the same people who question the validity of Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth. These people are known as troublemakers and retards.

Or maybe you are the retard?

If someone doesn't jump in with abandon to accept a purported document without verifying the provenance, I'd call that sensible. Hell, even sullay had the sense to scrutinise their hadiths!

I question the authenticity of the 52 hukams - not in a definitive way, but in a way that will hopefully lead to further study and discussion to facilitate sound knowledge enabling a sound decision to be made about it.

That's a lot better than that schizo song your singing mate.

The 52 hukams may well have a lot that is useful to us, that doesn't mean we switch off our brains to understanding its history and origins.

Edited December 3, 2014 by dalsingh101

[dalsingh101]

ganda Singh has written a book named Hukamaname in Gurmukhi. I am not sure whether there is a punjabi translation is avb or not. IF ONE IS TO BELIEVE GS, Guru Gobind Singh did not write 52 hukamname. GS Book avbl on Panjab Digital Library

Even so, that doesn't mean it can't be a valuable source of ideas for Sikhs.

Everything 'puratan' isn't wonderful; and everything modern isn't crap.

[Tandoori_Singh]

Or maybe you are the retard?

If someone doesn't jump in with abandon to accept a purported document without verifying the provenance, I'd call that sensible. Hell, even sullay had the sense to scrutinise their hadiths!

I question the authenticity of the 52 hukams - not in a definitive way, but in a way that will hopefully lead to further study and discussion to facilitate sound knowledge enabling a sound decision to be made about it.

That's a lot better than that schizo song your singing mate.

The 52 hukams may well have a lot that is useful to us, that doesn't mean we switch off our brains to understanding its history and origins.

Who the hell was even talking to you? Did I quote your post? Did I call YOU SPECIFICALLY a retard?

Fact is there are people out there that'll try and bash every single aspect of Sikhi (like the Hindu nutballs on this forum) regardless of concrete evidence being put before them. Trying to convince Sikhs they're Hindu's. That the Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth weren't written by Guru Ji. That Guru Ji wasn't a hunter and a warrior. Now you doubt his 52 Hukams. Next you'll be telling me it's possible he didn't write the Zafarnama.

It's ridiculous. It's not discussion, it's a misguided attempt to shake peoples faith.

Have some GODDAMN faith in your Guru you moron, that's what being a Sikh is about. Trust your Guru's words, follow them as best you can, and don't question them unless you eventually discover SOLID PROOF and reason to reject it. The burden of proof is not on Guru (who is perfect, the light of God on earth), it is on the people trying to denigrate him.

There are plenty of things in Sikhi that require a small leap of faith but we make it anyway. Sikhs believe that Baba Deep Singh (an 80 year old man) had such immense power that after being beheaded in a duel with a Muslim commander (who was also beheaded), picked his head back up, and continued to slay countless enemies with his head in one hand and swinging his 15 kilogram Khanda in the other (most swords are only 1KG).

You want VIDEO evidence of that too?

Do you realise how PETTY you sound when you say stupid crap like you said? When you doubt that Guru Gobind could have written just a short list of commandments one sunny afternoon?

"Just looks like a modern collection of random extracts to me."

THAT is what you said remember. You came into this thread with the expectation they are false.

Sikhs have had decades of research time to discover whether or not the 52 Hukams are problematic. You think YOU know better?

MOST religions are based on absolutely zero evidence or scientific awareness, to the point where you can't even conclusively prove their prophets existed or not. The Hadiths are nothing more than a buncha rumours (like a game of Telephone) written centuries after Mohammed's apparent death by eating a poisoned goat.

That said.

The sullay are gonna follow their religion no matter what. Even if someone gives absolute proof Mohammed didn't exist. No matter how many times you tell them of Mohammed and his followers countless crimes and disgusting acts. No matter how many times you dissect the Koran and prove its ridiculous in front of them. They'll come up with a million excuses.

Frankly some Sikhs (like the kind of pacifist hippies who use Sikh forums) could use that kind of blind resolve. We'd get a lot more done.

Save your 'amazing' critical thinking ability for something that's actually positive.

[gdskler]

Bachke raho!!! Tandoori Singh dan tandoor kosa toh tattha hoh giah !!.

[dalsingh101]

It's ridiculous. It's not discussion, it's a misguided attempt to shake peoples faith.

Have some GODDAMN faith in your Guru you moron, that's what being a Sikh is about.

Listen you thick twat:

Only a weak minded phudhoo would have his/her faith shaken by discussion in the first place. It is retards like you that stifle healthy debate, and cling to some twisted sheep like adherence to what you've heard, or what so and so baba said was 'gospel truth'. Then, anyone who asks relevant questions becomes RSS/Hindutva bogeymen or lacking faith.....

My faith is strong.

Sikhs have had decades of research time to discover whether or not the 52 Hukams are problematic. You think YOU know better?

Have you read all of this 'research' into the 52 hukams personally btw? And then deliberated upon it? Or have you just taken 'scholars' words uncritically like some semi-literate peasant?

We've already had the precedent of Sikhs believing dubious 'Sau Sakhis' in the past because of your type of mentality. You don't have to be a genius to take on appropriate lessons from that. Try it.

Frankly some Sikhs (like the kind of pacifist hippies who use Sikh forums) could use that kind of blind resolve. We'd get a lot more done

Maybe to you, Sikhi is some vehicle for political ambition, or sheep-like tribalism. Don't think that we all have that weak herd-like mentality. Blind resolve for good - yes. Blind resolve for bullshit - no.

Problem is, phudhoos like you easily end up doing the latter utterly convinced it's the former.

Okay big mouth:

Let's see all this research on the 52 hukams you are talking about; the floor is yours:

PS - all the debate on Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth was brilliant for those of us who used it as a stimuli to look into these granths in more detail. You're obviously one of phudhoos that used it as yet another tool to exercise your tribal instincts by jumping in a particular camp and jumping up and down like a lungoor throwing your tutti at your perceived opponents.... lol

Edited December 5, 2014 by dalsingh101

[Guest]

I think problem is not with 52 hakums itself but rather lack of contexualization of them.

 

In many areas gurbanis has forewarned us to rise above from conditioning attached with different levels in dharam, idiolized form of pointers/principles transcedent them with bibek buddhi.

 

To embodied full sikh life as per gurmat/taught by our Guru sahib should be devotion plus bibek buddhi, abide in shabad along with shabad gyan, not just wrap your head around 52 principles (idiolized form) be in stuck in subtle/evidents form of ego/self righteouness mixed with egoic mindset/pride. In this way, we don't outright reject 52 hakums but rather see its as aid in beginning stage to make your foundation strong

 

Cycle should be other way around to see full picture, see things from transcedental perspective- absolute perspective(Ikongkar) this will help siginficantly to see things in context-

 

Understand Bhai Gurdas ji varan --> Abide in teaching of gurbani-sri guru granth sahib/sri dasam granth from there with bibek buddhi one gets understanding contexualization of different levels in dharam- shariat, tariqat, marfat, hakikat or dharam khand, gyan khand, saram khand, karam khand, sach khand.

 

Unfortunately, its the other way around these days:

 

Rehit maryada/52 hakums/rehitnamas without incorporation of contextualization, gurbani, absolute gurmat non duality view-advait and being stuck at the first stage as falling into same notions many abhramic faith- islam and muslim followers do.

[dalsingh101]

where did i say Ganda Singh's work (if i understood correctly) is not a valuable source for sikhs? Whether I like his shameless khalsafication of Sikh history or not, he devoted his whole life to this field.

I don't think you did understand correctly: I wasn't specifically talking about Ganda Singh's work, just making general point. But (on a related note) even Ganda Singh had the humility and sense to say:

ਪਰ ਇਨਸਾਨ ਭੁੱਲਣਹਾਰ ਹੈ। ਇਸ ਲਈ ਵਿਦਵਾਨ ਪਾਠਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਵਿਚ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਕਿਧਰੇ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਕੋਈ ਉੱਕਾਈ ਦਿਸੇ, ਉਹ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਕੇ ਲਿਖ ਭੇਜਣ ਦੀ ਖੇਚਲ ਕਰਨ ਤਾਂ ਕਿ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦੀ ਸੋਧਅਤੇ ਟੋਹ ਦੀ ਲੋ ਵਿਚ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਵਿਚਾਰਿਆ ਜਾ ਸਕੇ।

“But man is prone to error. For this reason, in the service of learned scholars, I request that they graciously inconvenience themselves to write and send [details of any] perceived errors, so that in their correction and in the light of scrutiny, these can be deliberated upon.”

But here you got people who would throw a document/manuscript in your boothi and demand you adhere to it and start childishly casting aspersions on your loyalty should you apply some prudence or caution. That might be how things go down in rural pendu Panjab but me, I'm from the big bad city and I don't need to be told everything second hand because I'm not scared, averse or incapable of looking at source material myself.

Knowledge should be continually built upon.

I don't follow 'Sikhism' which is a product of Christian imperialism in India; I try and follow Sikhi which is grander than dogmatic lists of rules and factional politics.

Edited December 6, 2014 by dalsingh101

[Tandoori_Singh]

Listen you thick twat:

Only a weak minded phudhoo would have his/her faith shaken by discussion in the first place. It is retards like you that stifle healthy debate, and cling to some twisted sheep like adherence to what you've heard, or what so and so baba said was 'gospel truth'. Then, anyone who asks relevant questions becomes RSS/Hindutva bogeymen or lacking faith.....

My faith is strong.

Have you read all of this 'research' into the 52 hukams personally btw? And then deliberated upon it? Or have you just taken 'scholars' words uncritically like some semi-literate peasant?

We've already had the precedent of Sikhs believing dubious 'Sau Sakhis' in the past because of your type of mentality. You don't have to be a genius to take on appropriate lessons from that. Try it.

Maybe to you, Sikhi is some vehicle for political ambition, or sheep-like tribalism. Don't think that we all have that weak herd-like mentality. Blind resolve for good - yes. Blind resolve for bullshit - no.

Problem is, phudhoos like you easily end up doing the latter utterly convinced it's the former.

Okay big mouth:

Let's see all this research on the 52 hukams you are talking about; the floor is yours:

PS - all the debate on Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth was brilliant for those of us who used it as a stimuli to look into these granths in more detail. You're obviously one of phudhoos that used it as yet another tool to exercise your tribal instincts by jumping in a particular camp and jumping up and down like a lungoor throwing your tutti at your perceived opponents.... lol

LOL!

We got a badass over here!

Look at this uppity little Tarkhana faggot. Stick figure in real life, keyboard warrior at home. Do you kiss your mother with that potty mouth fool?

Who the hell needs the RSS when we have such friendly idiot 'Sikhs' such as yourself to converse with? How well do you think you're representing your people on the internet? You're a cancerous lump.

Your 'strong faith' is clearly lacking because you won't even ENTERTAIN the idea that these Hukams are the real deal. At least have the BALLS to admit the fact that you don't WANT to believe that they are real. What happened to a SIKH following Guru's word without question? (until overwhelming evidence to discard it, which has yet to happen)

I'm not interested in YOUR faith. However in my experience Tarkhans are the most self hating Gora-fied coconuts I've ever seen. They could use all the help they can get

"I don't follow 'Sikhism' which is a product of Christian imperialism in India; I try and follow Sikhi which is grander than dogmatic lists of rules and factional politics."

LOL

And the truth is so swiftly revealed!

Fact is... In your demented little peanut head you think Sikhi is ABOVE any kind of 'commandments', 'pillars', 'precepts' or rule based structure. That it can't be boiled down into a simple list of do's and don'ts.

Now ORDINARILY I'd agree with that approach. But you're dumb wanker with a million logical fallacies so I won't.

You want Sikhi to FLOOWWWW LIKEEE WATTERRRR or some hippie crap. You know who else makes that same silly excuse to try and get away from the fact that their faith is a BIG GIANT RETCON? HINDU'S.

And even 'Hinduism' has a rulebook called the 'Manusmriti' (The Laws of Manu), which FULLY codified the Varna Caste System and asserted Brahmin control. It may well have been instrumental in the destruction of Buddhism in India.

You do realise that whilst the British probably thought they were fulfilling some crazy 'Divine Plan' with their Empire, they didn't MAKE CHRISTIANITY, it's an ARAB religion.

All the Major World Religions are from the East. All of these Eastern Religions had a list of rules to some extent. Why must Sikhi be the only one that doesn't have this? How would something like that not be useful? Do you know how retarded you sound?

You're just as stupidly AGENDA driven as the people who say...

"Bu-bu-bu-but but Sikhs aren't supposed to eat meat! They're supposed to be vegetarians cus I'm one!!"

"Bu-bu-bu-but I don't like Dasam Granth cus it's got some story about an (entirely fictional) Hindu God in it!!"

"Bu-bu-bu-but Sikhs are meant to be inclusive/doormats so interfaith/gay weddings should be allowed!!"

"Bu-bu-bu-but Sikhs are peaceful we shouldn't disagree with other religions, make Khalistan or carry weapons!!"

I couldn't give less of a crap how you FEEL Sikhi should be. If you don't want to believe that the Hukams are real, that's YOUR problem dumbass. The majority of the Sikh Panth does accept them for good reason, they're totally in line with Bani and more easily accessible. Sikhi was DESIGNED with ease of understanding in mind.

You want to know what MY Political Agenda is? TO FOLLOW WHAT SIKHI AND GURU ACTUALLY SAYS AND MOVE IN THE DIRECTION OF KHALSA RAJ.

Unlike you with your pathetic Ramgharia ass Gurdwara's. There was one in the East Midlands that was recently hit by lightning. Roof blown clean off! I think Guru Gobind hates you hammerheads!

Plus do you think the British would have APPROVED of the content of these Hukams? Especially the one telling Sikhs to 'Stay Independant'. I'm sure that would have been their favourite! So much for your critical thinking and thoughts of influence.

You want the evidence? Here's what we know:

The Sikhism code of conduct. Reht Maryada, is based on 52 hukams or edicts issued by Tenth Guru Gobind Singh in 1708 in Nanded and sent to the Sikhs living in Kabul and Hazoor Sahib. The 52 hukamnamas or edicts giving instruction on appropriate behavior were written by order of Guru Gobind Singh and copied down by Baba Raam Singh Koer whose great grandfather was Bhai Baba Buddha. Guru Gobind Singh affixed his personal seal to the document, a copy of which can be seen at historic Gurdwara Paonta Sahib built on the Yamuna river banks in the town of Paonta Sahib of Sirmaur in Himachal, Pradesh India about 44 kilometers from Dehradun.

http://sikhism.about.com/od/gurugobindsing1/qt/52-Edicts-Of-Guru-Gobind-Singh.htm

Here's an image of a copy said to be at Paonta Sahib. It's clearly older than a few decades.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:52_Hukams_Inscribed_at_Gurudwara_Paonta_Sahib.jpg

Here's a book on the subject by Balwinder Singh.

http://jsks.biz/fifty-two-commandents-of-guru-gobind-singh

THERE'S your groundwork. Now go and do the rest asswipe. Why don't you go to Paota and go take a look at it? Go scour the Golden Temple archives (assuming the relevent stuff hadn't been burned in 1984).

Is this stuff TOTALLY CONCRETE? No. But nothing is, including many aspects of Sikhi. Again do you want me to...

CONCLUSIVELY prove Baba Deep Singh fought with his head held in hand?

CONCLUSIVELY prove that Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth were the work of Guru Gobind?

CONCLUSIVELY prove the Guruship was given to Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

CONCLUSIVELY prove what happened before the Big Bang?

CONCLUSIVELY prove that God exists?

Well too bad, proving these things are impossible. They require some degree of FAITH.

The burden of proof rests with YOU. YOU are the sceptic. In this scenario YOU are the crazy Hindu/Muslim trying to tell Sikhs that Guru Nanak was a 'Hindu/Muslim/Alien/Dinosaur'.

Go on, I'm waiting you ignorant faithless twerp.

[dalsingh101]

So you haven't even looked at the 'research' on the 52 hukams you so readily spoke of and so vehemently defended.....

Typically thick low IQ farming admin cut

Go eff of to Islam like most of your people did. You got the perfect mindset for it. admin cut Kharku fantasist.

Stick to simple stuff; like growing vegetables.

[savinderpalsingh]

the stupidity and the way of talking of singhs over here amazes me, how foul mouthed you all are.
to foul mouth and talk bad with a singh , is considered tankhiya

52 hukams match perfectly with rehat and guru sahib.

does our guru teach to talk like this to other fellow sikhs?

i feel like reading fight between toddlers !!

Edited December 7, 2014 by savinderpalsingh

[Koi]

So you haven't even looked at the 'research' on the 52 hukams you so readily spoke of and so vehemently defended.....

Typically thick low IQ admin cut

Go eff of to Islam like most of your people did. You got the perfect mindset for it. F**king Internet Kharku fantasist.

Stick to simple stuff; like growing vegetables.

Wow , that's just. .....wow

[dalsingh101]

the stupidity and the way of talking of singhs over here amazes me, how foul mouthed you all are.

to foul mouth and talk bad with a singh , is considered tankhiya

52 hukams match perfectly with rehat and guru sahib.

does our guru teach to talk like this to other fellow sikhs?

Did our Gurus tell us to create some feudal caste system in Sikhi either? No but we've done this with NO PAUSE or shame.

Funny how certain people are so quick to point out 'Hindu oppression' of Sikhs. But TOTALLY ignore all the rubbish that goes on inbetween Sikhs. Even when certain sections of the community have got so tired of the bullshit by 'high caste Sikhs' (i.e. farmers with illusions of grandeur) - that they've left.

The point I was alluding to about the 52 hukams is that people should be conscious of, and aware of any manuscripts history - not just start quoting it as authoritative without doing this.

Then, there is the issue of people using manuscripts for their own tribe/clans personal political and economic agendas. Jats are shameless in this respect.

That aside, I for one, would LOVE to have some solid background research on the 52 hukams - and I mean genuine critically evaluation: not just: "It fits into what we would like so it must be what it is at face value" and "we'll use it to try and compel people to act how we want and further our own selfish politico-economic desires".

The 52 hukams are of interest: I'd like to know the following:

Where is the earliest verifiable manuscript?

What date does it have?

Who wrote and/or transcribed it?

What is the language like - does it correspond to the language used during the date it is believed to have been created?

Where do the individual hukams originate from (which other documents)?

How does this manuscript compare to others that have been written during the same period?

Are there different versions or variations of the manuscript?

Then we have the other question of:

How is it being used to today? Is it being appropriated by specific groups to further their own agendas?

the stupidity and the way of talking of singhs over here amazes me, how foul mouthed you all are.

to foul mouth and talk bad with a singh , is considered tankhiya

You make me laugh a bit mate: the other week you were defending the actions of some pendu nihangs shooting dead another Singh for no good reason; like it was acceptable tradition amongst 'native SInghs'. But today a little swearing between Sikhs is beyond the pale for you... lol

Edited December 7, 2014 by dalsingh101

[savinderpalsingh]

You make me laugh a bit mate: the other week you were defending the actions of some pendu nihangs shooting dead another Singh for no good reason; like it was acceptable tradition amongst 'native SInghs'. But today a little swearing between Sikhs is beyond the pale for you... lol

if you remember correctly , even there i was pointing at you for foul mouthing at fellow sikhs.

[dalsingh101]

if you remember correctly , even there i was pointing at you for foul mouthing at fellow sikhs.

Yeah, but shooting dead another Singh is okay in your books......

What planet are you on?