Marriage... Split Into Two (Legal And Anand Karaj Later) Question...

[CdnSikhGirl]

This is a bit awkward question but...

If two Amritdhari marry, and because of having family in two different countries, decide to do legal civil ceremony first and then anand karaj in India later... I think I already know the answer. We have to wait until anand karaj don't we?

That's going to be a bit awkward to explain to people here why we won't have a 'wedding night' lol.

But after the civil ceremony, we are legally married at that point, is cuddling at least ok? I mean we will be husband and wife at that point legally.

There's about 12 weeks between the civil ceremony in Canada and anand karaj in India.

[jaikaara]

I think it depends on how you take it ...what is okay to your heart . Ceremonies i believe are for the public , its like making them witness to your unification ritual. I feel its better if you meditate within and find the answer . You are in a non indian country with a different set of cultural ideals.It would not be good to get judged .

Dharam is for man ..man is not for Dharam. Andar hukume sabko baahar hukum na koi...

[Sat1176]

That is maybe one of the reasons why couples who have a civil marriage earlier than anand karaj are not given permission to live together until both are done.

[CdnSikhGirl]

That is maybe one of the reasons why couples who have a civil marriage earlier than anand karaj are not given permission to live together until both are done.

For the sake of making it okay, I could have anand karaj done here too... but then, his family would feel like they were jipped because the anand karaj there is seen as the 'big day' so would it be wrong for us to do anand karaj twice, one here and one there... when the second one would seem less special and that was supposed to be the 'big day' (at least for his family).

The reason we have to do civil ceremony here is I can not stay in India long enough for it to be legaliuzed there. I only have 3 weeks total because of work. He can come here however and there is no time limit. We can just have civil ceremony planned, and I can get the marriage license prior to his arrival with copies of his paperwork. The issue is also that my Mom can not come to India due to her health. So for her (and the rest of MY family) the civil ceremony is the big day. And everyone would think it would be kind of odd with no 'kiss the bride' at the civil ceremony, and explanation of us having to stay apart even though we are married. If it's just 'sex' we can abstain... but if we are married legally.... in the eyes of Canada we are husband and wife, I can't see us staying separately and avoiding each other. (Truth be told: we didn't even do that in India... we travelled all over Kashmir together alone, but stayed in separate hotel rooms...and there was plenty of alone time and we still behaved... we did nothing inaproproate, but honestly, we held hands, and I did kiss him goodbye when I left India, and I don't feel that we did anything wrong.) I mean there has to be SOME indication if there is a bond at all to know if there is 'something' there to build a life upon. I could not just agree to marry a strange... and just hope for the best. Because marriage is for life in Sikhi, and I would not want to be trapped in a marriage without any mutual bond beyond some sort of agreement that feels more like a business arrangement than a marriage. Otherwise why even be married... After all, I can be anyone's friend at any time... I don't think the Gurus did not want us to live a life of solitude though, so I believe this is not what they were going for - all this rigid avoiding of everything (just ask on sikh sangat forum and they would have you believe that marriage / love / sex are all wrong). I believe love and commitment to one's own spouse and no other, where that mutual love and trust you both help each other along the path of Sikhi for the same spiritual goals. In this capacity, love and affection for your spouse is perfectly fine and normal. As long as it never interferes with each other's spiritual goals (help each other not hinder) and as long as it never turns to attachment (realize you are both individuals still on spiritual paths... and that spiritual path is higher than both of you).

And already having done legal marriage, we have already made that commitment (still under the eyes of Waheguru Ji, as nothing happens without his knowledge, and in fact everything is predestined as per his hukam), even though the anand karaj ceremony has not happened yet, I think its ok to at least be close and start to build our relationship, even if we don't 'go all the way' per say. But personally, deep within, I feel that there is nothing wrong with being close and spending time together. We have already spent time together alone in India, without doing anything innapropriate.

I think if we did anand karaj here too, it would take away from anand karaj that we are doing there... which is supposed to be the 'big day' in his family's eyes. I think it would be wrong to do it twice just so it would be okay for us to be alone together...

There's also the fact that I have not taken Amrit yet I am not doing it till the week of the anand karaj, and he is also doing it again with me (even though he has done it already)...

[Sat1176]

Maybe you should discuss this with your partner to see what you both want to do during this period. You already know what the answer would be from a strict Sikhi viewpoint. Trying to reason or justify your actions isn't really going to get you anywhere or get you the approval you seek. I doubt you will find anyone giving you permission to have intimate relations from a Sikhi perspective prior to the Anand Karaj. If your partner is a strict Amritdhari then he could say to you it's a big No No and won't partake in anything like that until he has done the Anand Karaj. Therefore problem solved! :-) If he does then he might want to present himself before the panj pyare when he retakes the amrit and confesses to what he has done. They can then decide if any punishment should be given.

Having two Anand Karaj's in different locations is making a mockery out of the religious ceremony and won't be allowed if anyone finds out.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Maybe you should discuss this with your partner to see what you both want to do during this period. You already know what the answer would be from a strict Sikhi viewpoint. Trying to reason or justify your actions isn't really going to get you anywhere or get you the approval you seek. I doubt you will find anyone giving you permission to have intimate relations from a Sikhi perspective prior to the Anand Karaj. If your partner is a strict Amritdhari then he could say to you it's a big No No and won't partake in anything like that until he has done the Anand Karaj. Therefore problem solved! :-) If he does then he might want to present himself before the panj pyare when he retakes the amrit and confesses to what he has done. They can then decide if any punishment should be given.

Having two Anand Karaj's in different locations is making a mockery out of the religious ceremony and won't be allowed if anyone finds out.

Well, the idea of doing anand karaj twice would not have been "to make a mockery" in any sense whatsoever, at least in intent..... but only because our families can't both be at the same place and so that "from a strict Sikh standpoint" (as you put) nothing would be considered "wrong". But, I would not want the anand karaj in India to seem less important if we already did it here too. So we decided to do civil ceremony here for my family and for the lgeal purposes (since I cant stay in India long enough), and anand karaj for his family in India.

I am not suggesting we become intimate in that 12 week period in between... but I also don't plan on avoding him, as we do not have much time together. I still have 2 years in military and during that time we can only see each other a few times a year. So I don't plan on spending his time here in Canada, avoiding him. As I said, we spent 3 weeks travelling together in India - and we never did anything inappropriate (unless you count holding hands as inappropriate).

It was just a question that came up because someone asked me how I will explain to my family etc. if we were going to avoid each other. Easy, we won't be avoiding each other because we can be in each others company, and still hold off, if from a religious standpoint, being legally married is not enough.

With my being 39 though, every day counts, if children are at all in the equation. Waiting any time at all now, may mean the difference between having a child or not. Time in this case, is not on our side. Maybe that is destiny though... I never did have the mothering gene anyway.

[Lucky]

I agree with Sat,..no one is going to give you approval on how intimate you can or cannot be. This is a matter between the pair of you and your relationship with each other and Guruji..........I'm sure you are mature enough to make appropriate decisions without the roll of dice or 3rd party approval.

In the eyes of sikhi, the marriage begins with anand karaj..............as Jaikaraa has said above, the civil marriage is just for the state and a display of two parties joining in a marriage contract. A union with God doesn't even come into it like anand karaj does.

The rest is up to both of you with how far you go in intimacy, because it has different meanings according to different people.

Some people don't see any serious connection or closeness with some kissing and snogging, but some may see or feel it as a serious physical connection....some may even feel any physical connection as something serious!.

......What it means to both of you and where you draw the line is what counts.......

....It's about your own 'minds' and 'consciousness'...............

...... Only you two can decide if any doubts may exist about some actions that may lead to a guilty conscious or not.

If your consciousness suspects some foreseeable guilt, then you know where you stand !

Edited January 20, 2015 by Lucky

[Singh123456777]

My opinion might differ, somebody else's opinion will differ so you make the desicion yourself. It already seems as if your mind is made up so the most I can say to you is congratulations on the wedding. Have a terrific Sikh life

PS: you better have chosen the anarkali

[CdnSikhGirl]

My opinion might differ, somebody else's opinion will differ so you make the desicion yourself. It already seems as if your mind is made up so the most I can say to you is congratulations on the wedding. Have a terrific Sikh life

PS: you better have chosen the anarkali

Actually, I had a nice blue heavy embrodidered anarkali chosen, but the shop continually keeps avoiding me, and occasionally I get emails saying its been delayed more and more. I ordered it Nov 28 and still have not gotten it! Not sure what to do, but I have a friend who stitches suits and offered to give me a lehenga. It's half sleeves (elbow length), long choli so nothing shows, and it's A-Line so structurally its the same shape as a long anarkali. And she said if it makes me feel better she can include pyjami to wear underneath in same colour. It's actually an 800 CDN suit (39000 rupees) and pure silk. The colour is rani pink which is stepping very close to red, but it's more like a dark magenta pink with red undertones. So my dilemma now is will a lehenga be inappropriate (if everything is covered and shape wise the silhouette is very similar to a floor length anarkali)? Is the colour too close to red? Will people think I am evil??? The embroidery on it is really very nice, it's not over the top like some bridal lehengas and the dupatta has a few inches border but is not overly heavy which is also good. The embroidery instead of being all kinds of bright colour is just gold and silver stonework. The reason she will give it to me free is that someone ordered it but backed out after production started (obviously they lost their deposit) and she is a good friend and this lehenga is close to my size. She is really trying to convince me this is a special day and I should make it memorable.

The anarkali I had ordered was in shades of blue and would have looked great with white dhamalla... but I have seen plenty of pics online of Amritdhari brides wearing even red with a white dastar and it looks fine.

Not are what to do. That shop is in Mumbai and its not even really a shop (I even had someone check it out who lives there) They work out of their home, do everything online and farm out the orders elsewhere.

[Singh123456777]

I always liked the pink color. It seems subtle and relaxing.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Ummm this is bright dark pink... like a dark magenta. With gold coloured embroidery and some dark pink velvet patchwork and clear stones. It's not over the top though like some lehengas I have seen. It's more minimal like at the bottom and just a few designs upward from the base. The dupatta is also only about 2" border and it's not heavy but there are dangles on all 4 corners and dangles on the tie for the lehenga. The choli is long, so it comes to hips length, meaning everything is covered. And she will add sleeves since it was originally sleeveless so I asked for half sleeves. The material though is pure silk so it's shiny material (not cheap synthetic net stuff). The shape and flow are exactly like a floor length anarkali, just the top is separate. I can pin it to the lehenga bottom though if it's an issue. And as I said she is sending me a churidhar bottom to wear under so essentially it's covering even more than my regular salwar suits! So I hope from an Amritdhari standpoint that is ok. And it's not red... LOL It's very dark reddish pink hahaha. But I have seen plenty of Amritdhari Bibis wearing pink suits (like the pink suit I have in my profile pic). Not everyone wears bana... and hardly any in the west.

Though this is not the suit....It's basically this colour scheme:

http://www.samyakk.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/252x354/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/l/sl2820-a.jpg

Should it be ok? I don't want to look like a frump or have people think I am not having morals haha. Or should I stick to subdued colours only? (I do like brighter colours on me because I am so pale skinned they make me look a little more healthy).

[Singh123456777]

It's perfectly fine and if it is comfortable for you that all matters. I remember when my sister got married and finding the perfect anarkali for her took FOREVER! Lol...

[Raavi]

On 1/19/2015 at 10:40 AM, CdnSikhGirl said:

 

For the sake of making it okay, I could have anand karaj done here too... but then, his family would feel like they were jipped because the anand karaj there is seen as the 'big day' so would it be wrong for us to do anand karaj twice, one here and one there... when the second one would seem less special and that was supposed to be the 'big day' (at least for his family).

 

The reason we have to do civil ceremony here is I can not stay in India long enough for it to be legaliuzed there. I only have 3 weeks total because of work. He can come here however and there is no time limit. We can just have civil ceremony planned, and I can get the marriage license prior to his arrival with copies of his paperwork. The issue is also that my Mom can not come to India due to her health. So for her (and the rest of MY family) the civil ceremony is the big day. And everyone would think it would be kind of odd with no 'kiss the bride' at the civil ceremony, and explanation of us having to stay apart even though we are married. If it's just 'sex' we can abstain... but if we are married legally.... in the eyes of Canada we are husband and wife, I can't see us staying separately and avoiding each other. (Truth be told: we didn't even do that in India... we travelled all over Kashmir together alone, but stayed in separate hotel rooms...and there was plenty of alone time and we still behaved... we did nothing inaproproate, but honestly, we held hands, and I did kiss him goodbye when I left India, and I don't feel that we did anything wrong.) I mean there has to be SOME indication if there is a bond at all to know if there is 'something' there to build a life upon. I could not just agree to marry a strange... and just hope for the best. Because marriage is for life in Sikhi, and I would not want to be trapped in a marriage without any mutual bond beyond some sort of agreement that feels more like a business arrangement than a marriage. Otherwise why even be married... After all, I can be anyone's friend at any time... I don't think the Gurus did not want us to live a life of solitude though, so I believe this is not what they were going for - all this rigid avoiding of everything (just ask on sikh sangat forum and they would have you believe that marriage / love / sex are all wrong). I believe love and commitment to one's own spouse and no other, where that mutual love and trust you both help each other along the path of Sikhi for the same spiritual goals. In this capacity, love and affection for your spouse is perfectly fine and normal. As long as it never interferes with each other's spiritual goals (help each other not hinder) and as long as it never turns to attachment (realize you are both individuals still on spiritual paths... and that spiritual path is higher than both of you).

 

And already having done legal marriage, we have already made that commitment (still under the eyes of Waheguru Ji, as nothing happens without his knowledge, and in fact everything is predestined as per his hukam), even though the anand karaj ceremony has not happened yet, I think its ok to at least be close and start to build our relationship, even if we don't 'go all the way' per say. But personally, deep within, I feel that there is nothing wrong with being close and spending time together. We have already spent time together alone in India, without doing anything innapropriate.

 

I think if we did anand karaj here too, it would take away from anand karaj that we are doing there... which is supposed to be the 'big day' in his family's eyes. I think it would be wrong to do it twice just so it would be okay for us to be alone together...

 

There's also the fact that I have not taken Amrit yet I am not doing it till the week of the anand karaj, and he is also doing it again with me (even though he has done it already)...

HI there, It is so interesting that my story is kind of similar to what you have explained here. We also don't want to do Anand Karaj without the presence of my parents. I am planning to go to India this year November to see him and we are thinking to have a legal marriage there as I only have 3 weeks to stay in India due to work. My parents cant travel right now because of their health issue and my siblings also cant travel this year. Also, doing Anand Karaj without my parents does not look good to us because it is big ceremony. so, we are planning to have a court marriage in India first so I can apply for this file to immigration and when his approval comes then we can do Anand Karaj next year along with all our family members. But we are just worried if the legal court marriage would be enough for immigration to approve him to come here. Because we cant stay away from each other for that long. we want to be together soon and start our life together. I would wanna know if you were from Canada, how did it go for you to have your husband's file get approved by immigration without Anand Karaj, is that possible? if you are from another country then it is okay. I am just looking for answers. We don't wanna anyone's feeling, also don't wanna do something which can cause problems for us in future. but we are sure be very cautious of doing the right thing. Thank You!

[GurjantGnostic]

On 10/20/2021 at 6:57 AM, Raavi said:

HI there, It is so interesting that my story is kind of similar to what you have explained here. We also don't want to do Anand Karaj without the presence of my parents. I am planning to go to India this year November to see him and we are thinking to have a legal marriage there as I only have 3 weeks to stay in India due to work. My parents cant travel right now because of their health issue and my siblings also cant travel this year. Also, doing Anand Karaj without my parents does not look good to us because it is big ceremony. so, we are planning to have a court marriage in India first so I can apply for this file to immigration and when his approval comes then we can do Anand Karaj next year along with all our family members. But we are just worried if the legal court marriage would be enough for immigration to approve him to come here. Because we cant stay away from each other for that long. we want to be together soon and start our life together. I would wanna know if you were from Canada, how did it go for you to have your husband's file get approved by immigration without Anand Karaj, is that possible? if you are from another country then it is okay. I am just looking for answers. We don't wanna anyone's feeling, also don't wanna do something which can cause problems for us in future. but we are sure be very cautious of doing the right thing. Thank You!

The legal marriage is what allows for the greencard. The gov doesn't care if you did Anand Karaj or not. 

[Guransh SIngh]

Guys I know it is not related but I wanted to ask. The ten gurus had anand karaj by the bedi(sacred fire), so now why do we do we do parkarma around Guru Sahib.

Who started this tradition?

Not the Guru Sahiban according to me.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Sat Kartar

[paapiman]

19 minutes ago, Guransh SIngh said:

The ten gurus had anand karaj by the bedi(sacred fire),

What is your source?

Sikhs do not worship the Agni dev (Demi-God of Fire). Anand Karaj must involve circling around Sri Waheguru jee (Gurbani), who can create millions of Demi-Gods.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Samarbir Singh]

27 minutes ago, paapiman said:

What is your source?

Sikhs do not worship the Agni dev (Demi-God of Fire). Anand Karaj must involve circling around Sri Waheguru jee (Gurbani), who can create millions of Demi-Gods.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Guransh SIngh]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

What is your source?

Sikhs do not worship the Agni dev (Demi-God of Fire). Anand Karaj must involve circling around Sri Waheguru jee (Gurbani), who can create millions of Demi-Gods.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

We do not worship Agni dev but that's how anand karaj was held by the fire, probably laavan shabad were sung, I will find the source in some time.

Bhul Chuk maaf 

Sat Kartar

[sevak]

5 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said:

The legal marriage is what allows for the greencard. The gov doesn't care if you did Anand Karaj or not. 

Actually they do here in Canada. 

[sevak]

On 10/20/2021 at 7:57 AM, Raavi said:

HI there, It is so interesting that my story is kind of similar to what you have explained here. We also don't want to do Anand Karaj without the presence of my parents. I am planning to go to India this year November to see him and we are thinking to have a legal marriage there as I only have 3 weeks to stay in India due to work. My parents cant travel right now because of their health issue and my siblings also cant travel this year. Also, doing Anand Karaj without my parents does not look good to us because it is big ceremony. so, we are planning to have a court marriage in India first so I can apply for this file to immigration and when his approval comes then we can do Anand Karaj next year along with all our family members. But we are just worried if the legal court marriage would be enough for immigration to approve him to come here. Because we cant stay away from each other for that long. we want to be together soon and start our life together. I would wanna know if you were from Canada, how did it go for you to have your husband's file get approved by immigration without Anand Karaj, is that possible? if you are from another country then it is okay. I am just looking for answers. We don't wanna anyone's feeling, also don't wanna do something which can cause problems for us in future. but we are sure be very cautious of doing the right thing. Thank You!

Legal marriage without Anand Karaj, will make suspicion for the immigration official. Marriage certificate alone is not sufficient to prove that your marriage is genuine. If your application gets rejected, you *may* have no option for appeal and will have to start all over again. 

[GurjantGnostic]

1 hour ago, sevak said:

Actually they do here in Canada. 

Oh. I had no idea. Good thing you're here.