Recurring Problems With Reincarnation

[truthseeker546]

I have some questions on the concept of reincarnation. My knowledge on reincarnation is mainly from Buddhism and Hinduism, this may not be accurate when it comes to Sikhism, so I'll ask some questions that I found to be problematic with the aforementioned religions and maybe with Sikhism.

1) If one does not remember his/her past life, then how is reincarnation fair/just as a system of purification of the soul. A person does not know what mistakes they made so they can correct them.

2) Animals (maybe natural objects ie. rocks???) have souls that move up to higher forms, ending up as human beings. How do these animals become "good" in order to move up this hierarchy? What makes a good/bad rock, or a whale worthy so it deserves to become human.

2b) And also can animals/inanimate objects make concious decisions that justify them being human?

3) If all souls were created at the beginning, some ended up as animals, some as humans ? on what criteria were some given a head start by being the higher form?

4) It's a scientific fact that the human race is increasing in size due to modern medicines, and governance. The human population has gone from less then 200 million to over 7 billion in the last 2 centuries alone. Does this mean Sikhs believe a lot of animals suddenly became good and turned to human beings?

4b) Also as human beings progress to higher forms, shouldn't that mean the human population should be getting less? not increasing? If you say well most humans are not achieving a higher form, then surely the animal kingdom should be drastically increasing, but more and more animals are becoming extict, there numbers are decreasing also, over fishing, global warming, poaching etc.

5) once a human being is "good" enough to move to a higher form, then what happens to his/her soul in Sikhism?

6) Is it only via Sikki that a soul can reach the higher form? or can someone following a different religion achieve this? If a good Muslim, Hindu, Christian can achieve this higher form of the soul, then whats the point of Sikki? If they can't then what about all those people that were there before Guru Nanak. After all Sikhism has only been around for about 700 years, humans existence is over thousands of years old.

That's all for now. Thanks

Edited April 10, 2015 by truthseeker546

[Guest]

I will answer your questions if i get little bit more time but for now, here is framework i used after research in order to understand reincarnation, karma etc:

According to my understanding, when we perceive or identify ourselves with this world in duality as separate from God/Vahiguru as relative duality with our egoic conditioned separate I, then there is reincarnation, transmigration.

But when we perceive or identify this world as one absolute non dual truth- God/Vahiguru in all, all in God/Vahiguru and have deeper realization of it then there is no reincarnation or transmigration, hell or heaven, all separate distinctions, fragmented reality in perception cease to exist. It's one absolute truth in all, all in one.

Reincarnation or transmigration or this world has no separate reality on its own. It's individual perception- I consciousness validates/invalidates this existence of this world, reincarnation or transmigration not the other way around based on live experience.

[truthseeker546]

@ N30 S!NGH

Thanks for replying N30, looking forward to your reply.

I'll answer you points when you give me answers to the above questions.

Also I'd to ask another one. Do Sikhs believe in Karma. So if something bad happens to anyone now, it was due to something bad they must have done in a past life?

Thanks

[PAL 07]

I have some questions on the concept of reincarnation. My knowledge on reincarnation is mainly from Buddhism and Hinduism, this may not be accurate when it comes to Sikhism, so I'll ask some questions that I found to be problematic with the aforementioned religions and maybe with Sikhism.

1) If one does not remember his/her past life, then how is reincarnation fair/just as a system of purification of the soul. A person does not know what mistakes they made so they can correct them.

REINCARNATION IS BASED ON THE ACTIONS OF THIS LIFE

2) Animals (maybe natural objects ie. rocks???) have souls that move up to higher forms, ending up as human beings. How do these animals become "good" in order to move up this hierarchy? What makes a good/bad rock, or a whale worthy so it deserves to become human.

THE 84 MILLION LIFE SPECIES HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE EVOLUTION CYCLE TO FINALLY ACHIEVE THE HUMAN BODY

2b) And also can animals/inanimate objects make concious decisions that justify them being human?

ANIMALS CAN MAKE LIMITED CONSCIOUS DECISIONS, HUMANS CAN MAKE UNLIMITED.

3) If all souls were created at the beginning, some ended up as animals, some as humans ? on what criteria were some given a head start by being the higher form?

ALL CREATION IN THE BEGINNING PASSED THROUGH ANIMAL LIFE TO ACHIEVE HUMAN FORM WHERE SOME DID GOOD AND BAD

4) It's a scientific fact that the human race is increasing in size due to modern medicines, and governance. The human population has gone from less then 200 million to over 7 billion in the last 2 centuries alone. Does this mean Sikhs believe a lot of animals suddenly became good and turned to human beings?

ANIMALS COMING INTO HUMAN FORM ARE NOT GOVERNED BY HUMAN PROCREATION, ALL OF LIFE CREATION IS GOVERNED BY GODS LAW e.g,. THERE ARE TRILLIONS OF GHOSTS WAITING TO OBTAIN HUMAN FORM AND MILLIONS OF DEVAS AND MILLIONS ANIMALS

4b) Also as human beings progress to higher forms, shouldn't that mean the human population should be getting less? not increasing? If you say well most humans are not achieving a higher form, then surely the animal kingdom should be drastically increasing, but more and more animals are becoming extict, there numbers are decreasing also, over fishing, global warming, poaching etc.

HUMANS BEINGS DON'T AUTOMATICALLY PROGRESS TO HIGHER FORMS, RARE HUMANS DO, MOST GO BACK INTO ANIMAL LIFE. THE SIKH TEACHINGS ARE THAT THE DESIRE AT THE LAST MOMENT OF YOUR LIFE WILL GOVERN YOUR FUTURE FORM

5) once a human being is "good" enough to move to a higher form, then what happens to his/her soul in Sikhism?

THE SOUL COULD ATTAIN DEVA LIFE IN HEAVENS OR ACHIEVE SALVATION FROM THE TRANSMIGRATION LIFE CYCLE AND ATTAIN MERGER WITH GOD

6) Is it only via Sikki that a soul can reach the higher form? or can someone following a different religion achieve this? If a good Muslim, Hindu, Christian can achieve this higher form of the soul, then whats the point of Sikki? If they can't then what about all those people that were there before Guru Nanak. After all Sikhism has only been around for about 700 years, humans existence is over thousands of years old.

SIKHISM IS NOT EXCLUSIVE TO GOD/SALVATION ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL HOWEVER GURU NANAK STRESSED THAT HIS TEACHINGS WERE MORE ADVANCED THAN PREVIOUS GURUS/SAGES/MESSIAH'S/PROPHETS ETC.

Edited April 10, 2015 by PAL 07

[PAL 07]

THIS DOCUMENTARY IS GREAT TO WATCH & WILL ANSWER MANY OF YOUR QUESTIONS

[truthseeker546]

@ PAL 07

Thanks for replying. You gave short "answers" to my questions, however you didn't answer any of them. Maybe you could read my questions on what I'm actually asking and try again.

your answer to question 4 was interesting, you said there are trillions of Ghosts waiting to take human form? According to Sikhism where are these Ghosts waiting? Are they here on earth, so that hows Sikhs explain the paranormal? or are they some place else. Is there any scriptural proof for this?

Also you said souls that reach the higher level, they either go to heaven to become Deva (which is what exactly, God type deity? or become one with God himself. what do you mean, they join his essence? become one with the divine conscious?, please explain.

[Guest]

1) If one does not remember his/her past life, then how is reincarnation fair/just as a system of purification of the soul. A person does not know what mistakes they made so they can correct them.

In my opinion, this is poorly constructed question- for taking reincarnation fair/just as system of purification of soul. Who is asserting or claiming sikhi only uses reincarnation fair and just system as method?

Sikhism needs to be looked at from its totality not just from sub aspects/concepts such as reincarnation.

Sikhism foundation is based on Hakum-always unfolding divine will, under divine will there is always unfolding divine laws of relative world where there is action/reaction. It all starts with ignorance/illusory power of God- how one takes themselves and world as separate from absolute truth, then from that ignorance- separate I-ego is born and from Ego sense of doership is born and from sense of doership- thoughts, desires actions are born and from that actions-reactions -fruit of those actions are there in which one must go through to fruit of those actions.

Reincarnation is not system of purification of soul but rather means to question one birth, actions, questions the source of their identity- I who is born and who dies?

2) Animals (maybe natural objects ie. rocks???) have souls that move up to higher forms, ending up as human beings. How do these animals become "good" in order to move up this hierarchy? What makes a good/bad rock, or a whale worthy so it deserves to become human.

2b) And also can animals/inanimate objects make concious decisions that justify them being human?

Its part of spiritual evolution, it goes through a process. Animals/inanimate objects must go through fruition or fulfillment of desire before they move up naturally towards spiritual evolution.

2b) They cannot make consious decisions on their own while they are animal/inanimate. Everything is preordained for them as part of spiritual evolution.

3) If all souls were created at the beginning, some ended up as animals, some as humans ? on what criteria were some given a head start by being the higher form?

No one knows. Sikhism states in gurbani itself, trying to know intellectually the start of creation how god definitely works would be undermining it. One can only submit to divine will, after submitting to divine will(connect to inner divine consciousness)- one gets intuitive understanding of divine will-hakum unfolding itself infinitely always changing but yet pure essence never changes always eternal

4) It's a scientific fact that the human race is increasing in size due to modern medicines, and governance. The human population has gone from less then 200 million to over 7 billion in the last 2 centuries alone. Does this mean Sikhs believe a lot of animals suddenly became good and turned to human beings?

4b) Also as human beings progress to higher forms, shouldn't that mean the human population should be getting less? not increasing? If you say well most humans are not achieving a higher form, then surely the animal kingdom should be drastically increasing, but more and more animals are becoming extict, there numbers are decreasing also, over fishing, global warming, poaching etc.

Sikhs don't have specific understanding method regarding this as we leave it up to hakum-divine will always unfolding to define it, redefine it do whatever with it, one thing about hakum which is always unfolding cannot be understood by logic or rational as it does not have specific pattern of change/process, specific process.

Our doctrine does not define nitty-gritty details in divine will but rather simply point towards divine will as inherently present here and now fully capable of working things out. One can have intuitive understanding of hakum-divine will by meditation on NAAM (one own inner real self-inner awareness/knowledge)

5) once a human being is "good" enough to move to a higher form, then what happens to his/her soul in Sikhism?

Once move to higher form , sikhi talks about one goes through fruitration of higher realms such as heaven-baikhunt until fruition is done then reincarnated back as human being as part of spiritual evolution. Gurbani also forewarns, higher form is temporary, transient realms..so to recognize one real self as part of permanent end of suffering-reincarnation-samsara

6) Is it only via Sikki that a soul can reach the higher form? or can someone following a different religion achieve this? If a good Muslim, Hindu, Christian can achieve this higher form of the soul, then whats the point of Sikki? If they can't then what about all those people that were there before Guru Nanak. After all Sikhism has only been around for about 700 years, humans existence is over thousands of years old.

Please define higher form. We acknowledge higher realm such as heaven etc but don't believe in it or have aim to achieve higher aim as only higher form we beleive is self-realization- Thy realize yourself - Know your real self. Man tu jot saroop hai, apna mool pain chain - O mind, you are pure awareness/divine knowledge recognize your root/seed.

Other paths can also have same realization of their self by grace of their enlightened Guru(teacher).

Point of Sikhi was to provide clear path, scripture( pure divine knowledge eternal guidance guru without any trace of dogma), pure understanding of divine, totally free from dogmatic notions, totally free from relative realities as purpose of sikhi is to seeker pure cognitive pure perception which provides divine knowledge-essence, essence of all and supreme reality essence. Point of Sikhi was to get right too the root essence of divine as other paths bought lot of dogma with it which had obscure essence true knowledge/message of divine in their respective paths.

[Guest]

~ Know your Real Self ~

First descended from Waheguru (God), a transparent ray, the conscious reality, which combing with nature took the epithet of living being. Round this ray, spread a mini globe- like substance, and the ray became resplendent. This state has been termed as the first separation (isolation) of atma(soul) from god(paratma) and has been called the sheath of bliss. After this, with the coming of thinking, one automatically moves into second circle of Maya (illusion). This is Miracle of Intellect. It was named the intellect of sheath. Descending lower still, there awakened the idea of making some achievement of producing something new. Affections and allurements brought this being under their control and pushed him into countless programs, which are ever-expanding, so that the chain is never broken. The state of mind has been called the mental sheath. One was caught in the circle of resolution and repudiation. Beyond this stage, the cosmic energy pushed it still further down and called it the circle of power or the vital sheath. This power was born out of the relationships of the illusion. After this, it assumed some form and went on assuming different forms.

As Guru Maharaj has ordained-

For several births thou became a worm and a moth.

In several birth thou wert an elephant, a fish and a deer.

In several births thou became a birth and a snake.

In several births thou were yoked as a horse and a ox. SGGS JI- 176.

This circle of different bodies is called "Annmayee Kosh". Kosh the sheath of food.

~ Sant Waryam Singh Ji Ratwara Sahib (Discourses on the beyond II)

[truthseeker546]

Thanks for your replies, too tired now to reply to the posts. Will do so tomorrow evening.

[das]

Truthseeker546, first and foremost, if you're really looking for answers then I'm sorry that you came to wrong location.

e.g

A old lady was looking on the road. A passerby thought to help this women, so he offered his help to the women. Both started to search for the "key" that the women has lost. Eventually, one wise man came and asked what's the problem. To which the women replied that she has lost her key inside the room which is dark. So, she came outside in the light to search for it. Wise man replied that if the key was lost inside, then go inside and turn on the light to search within the room.

e.g

Once a bird picked queen's very expensive necklace and flew away and obviously queen became sad. King ordered his servants to follow the bird and bring back the necklace but servants could not found the necklace. King made an announcement that whosoever will find the queen's necklace will be rewarded. After few days, a person reported that queen's necklace was seen in a pond. King immediately left for that pond along with his servants. When the king and his servants reached pond, they could clearly see the necklace at the bottom of the pond because the water in pond was clear and calm. King ordered his servants to dive into pond and bring back the necklace; the servants followed the order and searched for necklace in the pond but could not find it, king also joined them. The water in the pond gets muddy and ripples were created because of the king and its servants activity in the pond. After searching in vain, they came out of pond and tried to see the necklace but as water was full of mud and ripples they can no longer see the necklace in the pond. They waited for some time to get the mud settle at the bottom and water be clear of ripples. Once water is calm and clear again, they can again see the necklace at the bottom. They again dived into water to get the necklace but could not find one. They repeated the above procedure for a full day. Finally, a wise man was passing by and he asked why King and his servants are spoiling their clothes in pond. He was told the whole story. The wise man asks them to show him the necklace in pond to which he was shown the necklace in the pond. The wise man after seeing the necklace in pond immidiately responded that King and his servants are looking at the image of necklace and the real necklace is hanging at the tree at the banks of that pond. Same way, we are looking for God and searching for happiness in the external world (which is the image/creation of God) and eventually getting pains, but the real place of God's abode is within everyone and outside.

Bottom line is if you're really after the answers, then please search within and you'll find out the truth.

Now, as far the questions are concerned, let's start the argument. Here are MY (egotistical I) Right answers;

CENTER path leads to Source/Truthful home.
RIGHT side leads to Higher planes but ends in blind-ally.
LEFT side leads to many Powers (Ridhi-Sidhis).

SOURCE
-- ------------------| |---------------------------
--------------------| |---------------------------
--------------------| |---------------------------
MANY OTHER SPIRITUAL PLANES
--------------------| |---------------------------
SPIRITUAL PLANES (i.e Trikuti: the planes from which one does not need to incarnate into physical body.)
--------------------| |---------------------------
CAUSAL
--------------------| |---------------------------
ASTRAL
--------------------| |---------------------------
PHYSICAL
--------------------| |---------------------------

1) If one does not remember his/her past life, then how is reincarnation fair/just as a system of purification of the soul. A person does not know what mistakes they made so they can correct them.

First of all, reincarnation is NOT a system of purification of the Soul. But at the same time if one's Soul is under the guidance of enlightened being (or say in the middle pipe as shown in the figure), then the next reincarnations in the form of human could be utilized as a system of purification.

Only if Soul is in middle pipe, then the reincarnation in human form is a chance to purify the Soul. But otherwise if the Soul is not in the middle pipe, the reincarnation is only the result of his/her deeds/desires. But also remember that anyone can be part of that middle pipe while in the human incarnation as only Humans can consciously progress.
So, it means that reincarnation was NEVER meant for purification, it was purely a devised system to keep running this whole universe (cycle after cycle) but at the same time there exists a chance in human incarnation to become part of middle pipe. In other words, Human Birth is a golden chance to cut short this reincarnation of 84 million species.

Now, the question is if one could remember the past lives living in poor conditions (physical/mental/emotional) as human beings or as animals; then the person can do something to progress on the path of spirituality. But the problem is that nobody remembers the past lives. It is because of the 3 boons given to Time entity. Time (or say the entity responsible for Time/Creation) has requested the following 3 boons from the Source/God:

1. Nobody will know of his or her past life.
2. Nobody should know about his or her exact time and date of death.
3. The Masters/Enlightened beings/Saints/Gurus should NOT grant Holy Initiation to the humans by showing miracles but simply hold Satsangs and if the dear ones come up of themselves and seek initiation, only then should they be initiated. This is how one becomes part of middle pipe.

2) Animals (maybe natural objects ie. rocks???) have souls that move up to higher forms, ending up as human beings. How do these animals become "good" in order to move up this hierarchy? What makes a good/bad rock, or a whale worthy so it deserves to become human.
2b) And also can animals/inanimate objects make concious decisions that justify them being human?

Yes, all the natural objects including rocks does have souls. That being said, animals or rocks canNOT consciously make decisions to move up to higher forms. They cannot do anything good to move up the higher forms (unless some Saint/Guru interfere in the cycle e.g a ant killed by the step of Saint) . They are just experiencing what they desired or as per their own deeds/thoughts. There is a cycle of 84 million in which souls can attain some physical form but only the Human form does have the capability to CHOOSE CONSCIOUSLY as per his good/bad deeds.

So, in general, animals and/inanimate objects cannot move consciously to higher forms. Everything is their life is pre-determined and their cycle of 84 million is also pre-determined. So, yes after completing their 84 million -1 births, they do get human form (a chance) but that is by the process and NOT by their choice.

3) If all souls were created at the beginning, some ended up as animals, some as humans ? on what criteria were some given a head start by being the higher form?

This all was decided by the Time entity who is responsible for the whole universe. This was decided by him and nobody has an idea what was the criteria. But one thing is for sure that either Desire OR Karma are the ONLY things which could lead the soul from higher forms to lower forms during the creation. Those who desire to experience the lower forms were given that form and the ones who doesn't desire, they were attached a first bad karma/thought of the Time entity to pull them into lower forms. OR may be souls want a chance (human form) in order to lead to God/Source. After all Time is the Mind factor (who creates its own destiny).

4) It's a scientific fact that the human race is increasing in size due to modern medicines, and governance. The human population has gone from less then 200 million to over 7 billion in the last 2 centuries alone. Does this mean Sikhs believe a lot of animals suddenly became good and turned to human beings?

4b) Also as human beings progress to higher forms, shouldn't that mean the human population should be getting less? not increasing? If you say well most humans are not achieving a higher form, then surely the animal kingdom should be drastically increasing, but more and more animals are becoming extict, there numbers are decreasing also, over fishing, global warming, poaching etc.

This is half truth. The human race's life is decreasing day by day. It used to be many thousand years old. In the past, governance was the perfect. But yes, population is increasing. Why? It's better to ask the Creator. Here is just a guess. I don't think any person can have a clue on that (unless that person happens to be a Saint). Here are couple of things to understand.

First of all, the entity responsible for everything is normally called Time has 2 major powers: Time and Space. He is able to use time delays for enlarging the space, and in fact he does so. This is also the reason why scientists detect that the universe is enlarging.
First of all, the Time entity had also taken promise from the Source's good power (to pull the soul back from lower planes) would not interfere extensively in Time's universe for the first 3 yugs (Satyug, Trethayug, Duvaparyug). Now, we're in Kalyug (Iron age) where many good Souls (coming directly from Source) are coming with greater power and disclosing the greater secrets to reach the Source e.g Bhagti/Meditation path. So, may be more Souls from higher planes are taking birth in order to go more further.
Or may be the Time entity is also increasing its forces in the shape of humans to counteract the good powers and spread misinformation. or something like that.

Again, if you want real answers, then search from within (where the Source is and which is beyond the Mind/Intellect).

5) once a human being is "good" enough to move to a higher form, then what happens to his/her soul in Sikhism?

It's not about Sikhism. It's evolution in Spiritual. You/Soul progress to higher and higher forms until it reached the Source.

6) Is it only via Sikki that a soul can reach the higher form? or can someone following a different religion achieve this? If a good Muslim, Hindu, Christian can achieve this higher form of the soul, then whats the point of Sikki? If they can't then what about all those people that were there before Guru Nanak. After all Sikhism has only been around for about 700 years, humans existence is over thousands of years old.

No, nobody reach to higher forms via any religion including Sikhism. All the religions are meant to educate us about the middle pipe. Religion in itself is nothing. When any religion started, it was supposed to teach the real path. But with time, the real teaching of any religion are corrupted with dogmas. So, after a while The Source sends His Masters to re-educate people and people ended up capturing the teachings in a box but the Masters/Saints never wanted to define boundaries around the teachings. Even people today have already trapped the teachings of Sikh Gurus in a box and has produced dogmas. I'm sure that after many thousand years, Sikhs would forget the real teachings and twist the teachings and thus another Saint/Master will come to re-teach us.

Edited April 13, 2015 by das

[truthseeker546]

Sorry again, even more tired then yesterday - so can't reply yet. however this made me laugh;

A old lady was looking on the road. A passerby thought to help this women, so he offered his help to the women. Both started to search for the "key" that the women has lost. Eventually, one wise man came and asked what's the problem. To which the women replied that she has lost her key inside the room which is dark. So, she came outside in the light to search for it. Wise man replied that if the key was lost inside, then go inside and turn on the light to search within the room.

Reminded me of a movie I saw as a child where a team of unlikely heroes are lead by a questionable "wise man" who keeps making up these kinds of fables. - he was of course a fraud but still quite entertaining. The meaning to this is: search for the key to God inside yourself, (faith and belief) where they key is ... not outside (logic, reason) where the key doesn't exist.

Well, you see I see the light as knowledge, reason, logic. If the women had any of it, she wouldn't be looking for a key outside - when she knew it was inside. A more adept reasoning would have had her open a flippin window, (brain) so the light of reason could illuminate her dark inner home, to which she would find the key.

You see for me - all religions find the 'key' in the house, after much fumbling in the darkness. without the "outside" light, question is: is it the right key, or more importantly does it open the correct door? Everyone strongly believes theirs does - they even fall in love with that small key, thinking they've found the correct one in the dark, only the light can reveal which one is the right one.

Off to bed now, will reply (hopefully) tomorrow to this post.

Thanks

[truthseeker546]

Sorry forgot to add, what is this " Time entity" can someone explain? Thanks

[das]

truthseeker546, you said it right, it is laughable. Why don't you just peep inside and find the answers; otherwise keep looking for answers which may or may NOT be right. You need the proper tools to look for the things you're looking for, otherwise it's in vain. You can't use thermometer to measure the volume of water; thermometer is a different tool for different purpose. This is simple enough Science, right?

Noone is here claiming that they have found The key. By peeping inside, does NOT mean have faith and belief. Belief is the programming which could be altered anytime by anyone. By looking inside means to look for the real answers/real-logic. i.e one cannot understand the Source, but one can try to understand his own body, his own though process and so on because essentially macroscopic is microscopic. Understand This and you'll understand Him.

So, find the answers if you really want; but otherwise if you're here just to prove some religion/creed/some-organization wrong, then please tell us your point of view and spare your and our energy for something better. I'm sure that there are lot of better things in life as compared to doing arguments.

As you say peace. No more comments from my side, no reason for arguments.

Edited April 13, 2015 by das

[paapiman]

I have some questions on the concept of reincarnation. My knowledge on reincarnation is mainly from Buddhism and Hinduism, this may not be accurate when it comes to Sikhism, so I'll ask some questions that I found to be problematic with the aforementioned religions and maybe with Sikhism.

1) If one does not remember his/her past life, then how is reincarnation fair/just as a system of purification of the soul. A person does not know what mistakes they made so they can correct them.

2) Animals (maybe natural objects ie. rocks???) have souls that move up to higher forms, ending up as human beings. How do these animals become "good" in order to move up this hierarchy? What makes a good/bad rock, or a whale worthy so it deserves to become human.

2b) And also can animals/inanimate objects make concious decisions that justify them being human?

3) If all souls were created at the beginning, some ended up as animals, some as humans ? on what criteria were some given a head start by being the higher form?

4) It's a scientific fact that the human race is increasing in size due to modern medicines, and governance. The human population has gone from less then 200 million to over 7 billion in the last 2 centuries alone. Does this mean Sikhs believe a lot of animals suddenly became good and turned to human beings?

4b) Also as human beings progress to higher forms, shouldn't that mean the human population should be getting less? not increasing? If you say well most humans are not achieving a higher form, then surely the animal kingdom should be drastically increasing, but more and more animals are becoming extict, there numbers are decreasing also, over fishing, global warming, poaching etc.

5) once a human being is "good" enough to move to a higher form, then what happens to his/her soul in Sikhism?

6) Is it only via Sikki that a soul can reach the higher form? or can someone following a different religion achieve this? If a good Muslim, Hindu, Christian can achieve this higher form of the soul, then whats the point of Sikki? If they can't then what about all those people that were there before Guru Nanak. After all Sikhism has only been around for about 700 years, humans existence is over thousands of years old.

That's all for now. Thanks

I had made comments and asked certain questions to you, but you did not reply to them. Bro, I think you are asking too many questions. How about we tackle one question completely, before we move on to other questions? At the end of the day, it's your choice.

Peace

Edited April 13, 2015 by paapiman

[truthseeker546]

@ Paapiman.

Sorry I said I was busy so didn't have time to reply. here are my replies to some of your answers. If I missed something let me know.

OK -

@ PAL 07, N30 Singh and das

To answer your replies;

I’ve noticed the main 3 people that replied to my question, differ in their answers. This may be due to their different sects within Sikhism or general understand. I’ve tried to reply to all 3 separately with respect to their individual beliefs.

Also please note, I’m not just randomly asking questions. Sikhism believes in God as being Just. As an being that ultimately created human beings and wants good for them – hence why constantly sending prophets/gurus to humans to teach them. With this in mind, some of the issues raised against reincarnation go against this view. And it’s in this I’m interested in. How can a merciful, Just God create a world/system which goes against this justice? See below to the answers please.

I would like some proofs from SGGS in the future, as it helps me with my quotations later on.

Also a lot of this is personal interpretation. Which is fine for the individuals, however I’m interested in mainstream Sikhi views on things.

Thanks

Question 1

@ PAL 07

1) REINCARNATION IS BASED ON THE ACTIONS OF THIS LIFE

Yes - that would determine how you will reincarnate after you die, but it was your previous life the determined this one. yes?

My question was how can you improve if you don't know what you did before. You’re kind of doomed to go around this cycle if you don't know how to improve.

@ N30 Singh:

Umm the question is perfectly fine. It's a classical argument against reincarnation by occidental academics when they were first exposed to eastern religions. It hasn't been answered (in a way that would make sense) by anyone so far. You might want to consider reading some philosophy.

Everything you said still doesn't explain why you can't remember you past life. I can understand if what you believe on the first individuals were born, (mentioned in your answer about separation of self, God ego etc) but why don't people recall their past cycles? By the way everything you mentioned, is this is the SGGS? If so can you tell me where please?

To note: when I said this is a system of the soul’s purification, it was my own term to describe reincarnation the way I see it. I'm assuming God is the creator and indeed sustainer of reincarnation in Sikhism. It’s through His will that the souls move higher or lower depending on their actions. Right? It’s not on auto-pilot after all. So my question was how it is this cycle/system/ whatever you want to call it is fair or just if you can't recall your mistakes? You’re doomed to repeat the same things over and over again. As someone mentioned before only a few souls reach the highest level of joining God or going to "heaven". Seems like the whole thing is designed to make people go in circles? Without knowing Why?

@ das

Now your answer is really interesting. Never heard of this before in Sikhism, Can you please give me more information on this time entity and the 3 booms ? Where is it in the SGGS? Thanks

Question 2:

2) THE 84 MILLION LIFE SPECIES HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE EVOLUTION CYCLE TO FINALLY ACHIEVE THE HUMAN BODY

@ PAL 07

This wasn’t an answer to my question! I asked what prerequisites are there for animals to move up to a higher form.

@ das and N30 singh.

"Its part of spiritual evolution, it goes through a process. Animals/inanimate objects must go through fruition or fulfillment of desire before they move up naturally towards spiritual evolution.

2b) They cannot make consious decisions on their own while they are animal/inanimate. Everything is preordained for them as part of spiritual evolution"

This is contradictory - part A you said they must go through fruition and fulfillment of desire - and then you say it's all preordained for them all.

Das said something similar that animals can’t choose – they are preordained as animals and rocks, only humans can. I’ll answer both here.

Now this causes a lot of problems. - Too many for me to list all here. Before I mention some of them, I will point out my question was how animals move up the spiritual ladder. So how can a fish or lion go through fruition and fulfillment? Especially when they don’t even have full reasoning capacity? Doesn’t seem very fair.

Now if you believe that it’s all pre-ordained. Meaning you were all ready destined to be, say a frog, and hip and hop around a pond with your frog mates, without knowing why or having the intellect to understand religious teachings to what this existence is about. And just out of pure luck you are destined to be a human in the next life, and his friend – the frog in the pond with him is sadly destined to be a worm in the next life. How is this fair? If frog A – was destined to be a frog and then move up it means all his previous lives didn’t mean anything because he’s destiny was to be a frog (in this cycle) even if he was human before, he’s choice didn’t mean anything. So where is the freewill?

Question 3

3 - ALL CREATION IN THE BEGINNING PASSED THROUGH ANIMAL LIFE TO ACHIEVE HUMAN FORM WHERE SOME DID GOOD AND BAD

@PAL 07

So everyone was an animal to begin with? OK so how did the first animals become Human, as this is all preordained? Something tells me you will say we can’t know that. Leela?

@N30 Singh

Fair enough N30 Singh. If you don’t know, Seems like a perfectly good question to me as it tells us something about God’s justice. Surprised no one asked the Gurus when they were around.

@das

Again this “time entity” .. can you please explain what this is in light of the SGGS? What did the Gurus say about it. I’ve never heard of it before in Sikhism.

You said some souls wanted to be lower forms ? and more interestingly “ they were attached a first bad karma/thought of the Time entity to pull them into lower forms.”

So this time entity attached bad karma without these souls ever doing anything wrong? How do Sikhs think this is fair/just? What’s the point of asking the souls were you want to go if no matter what answer you give you end up as a lower form.

Question 4

ANIMALS COMING INTO HUMAN FORM ARE NOT GOVERNED BY HUMAN PROCREATION, ALL OF LIFE CREATION IS GOVERNED BY GODS LAW e.g,. THERE ARE TRILLIONS OF GHOSTS WAITING TO OBTAIN HUMAN FORM AND MILLIONS OF DEVAS AND MILLIONS ANIMALS.

@PAL 07

Again you missed the question; the reincarnation theory doesn’t fit into science in relation with world populations. As I mentioned in my question. Interesting point on Trillions of Ghosts?

Where exactly are these ghosts waiting? Can you tell me more about them please? What are they? Do they exist in heaven or earth or somewhere else? SGGS on this? If this is true then why wasn’t the human population a lot higher to begin with?

HUMANS BEINGS DON'T AUTOMATICALLY PROGRESS TO HIGHER FORMS, RARE HUMANS DO, MOST GO BACK INTO ANIMAL LIFE. THE SIKH TEACHINGS ARE THAT THE DESIRE AT THE LAST MOMENT OF YOUR LIFE WILL GOVERN YOUR FUTURE FORM

OK – again missed my question. If rare humans only go to higher form then should there be a huge increase in animal life? As most are going down then?

@ n30 Singh

“Sikhs don't have specific understanding method regarding this “

So what your saying is there is nothing is the SGGS or gurus teaching that explains this? Fair enough.

@ das

“Time's universe for the first 3 yugs (Satyug, Trethayug, Duvaparyug)”

Interesting, time entity involvement again. Seems to be a central theme in your answers, surprisingly no one else has mentioned it. Can you please explain this “time entity” and where does it state things about the 3 yugs in SGGS?

I can understand that all 3 of you said no one knows, meaning nothing in the SGGS on this.

Question 5.

THE SOUL COULD ATTAIN DEVA LIFE IN HEAVENS OR ACHIEVE SALVATION FROM THE TRANSMIGRATION LIFE CYCLE AND ATTAIN MERGER WITH GOD

OK. Can you explain to me about Sikhism’s version of heaven? What do you mean by Deva here? As a Hindu type God? Deva’s with special powers like Greek Gods on mount Olympus or Hindu God’s like in 24 Avatar?

Or merger with God? What do you mean? They join the essence of WahiGuru? Does that mean they increase the “body” of God? Do they still retain their own individual essence or consciousness and still be one with God? Then God ends up having thousands (potentially trillions) of individual entities “joining” his essence? How does that leave WahiGuru still being one entity?

@ N30 Singh

“Once move to higher form , sikhi talks about one goes through fruitration of higher realms such as heaven-baikhunt until fruition is done then reincarnated back as human being as part of spiritual evolution. Gurbani also forewarns, higher form is temporary, transient realms..so to recognize one real self as part of permanent end of suffering-reincarnation-samsara”

Umm a very different answer? So you’re saying someone can become a Deva/Devi in heaven and then still end up back on earth? Why? I though once you reach the higher form that was the end of your spiritual evolution, going back down is devolution isn’t it? How can one recognize oneself when you can’t remember what you have been through? I don’t know if I was a frog in my last life or a Deva in heaven, so how does this help me? Is it in the SGGS that you come back down from heaven? If so where?

@das

Umm IT IS about Sikhism because it’s Sikhism’s idea on what happens to the soul after we die. More religions don’t believe in reincarnations yet they feel the presence of God.

Question 6.

SIKHISM IS NOT EXCLUSIVE TO GOD/SALVATION ALL RELIGIONS ARE EQUAL HOWEVER GURU NANAK STRESSED THAT HIS TEACHINGS WERE MORE ADVANCED THAN PREVIOUS GURUS/SAGES/MESSIAH'S/PROPHETS ETC.

OK. That doesn’t quite answer my question. You say all religions are equal but Sikhism is more advanced. Then they are not all equal are they? My question was: can people of other faith move closer to God if they are good? I mean not all Sikhs are religious? Regardless if you think your faith is more advanced?

@N30 Singh

Yes I’m sure Sikhs believe their faith is very clear – as do most people of faith. However for a non-Sikh it’s very confusing. But my question was can other members of faith reach the higher form. By this I meant meager with God, or heaven? If so then what’s the point of Sikki? You said it’s a clearer religion without Dogma, to which someone like me will argue against. (and apparently some Sikhs like Das). Sikhism like all faiths has sects, cultural issues, controversies’, dogmas and various interpretations. And of course there are religious Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc that are more religious then some Sikhs.

So that means you can follow any religion that your heart inclines towards (as long as you follow it properly) because you can reach God via any path. Is this correct?

@Das

“No, nobody reach to higher forms via any religion including Sikhism.” Sikhism has dogma”

OK you agree Sikhism has dogma same as other religions. See my point above.

Well if nobody can reach higher forms with religion then what’s the point of prophets, gurus, devas etc coming and telling us about religion. I see what you mean though, that is not just religion but practicing the true teachings of that religion. Yes but say someone practicing the true teachings of any religion can achieve merger with God? Or is only through the teachings of Sikhism? That’s my question?

There are obviously religious people around – even at the times of the Guru’s for example: there were pious Hindu yogi’s or Muslims saints (sufi’s) – you only have to look at the bani’s included in the adi Granth. Where does that leave Sikhism?

[truthseeker546]

@ das

your last point

"So, find the answers if you really want; but otherwise if you're here just to prove some religion/creed/some-organization wrong, then please tell us your point of view and spare your and our energy for something better. I'm sure that there are lot of better things in life as compared to doing arguments.''

Umm this is a Q&A section on a Sikhism open forum, is it not? That's why I've posted my questions here. I'm not trying to prove anything or prove anyone wrong. But simply ask questions on beliefs to better understand it.

For example just by asking questions; I've learn't Sikhs views on the Gurus, that they were in God's form, they didn't have sex or have children sexually, about the existence of this "time entity" and how it interacts with reincarnation. I wouldn't have learned this by simply reading books. It explorers the religion and gives you a better understanding. well does me anyway.

Now if my questions are making you question your faith I suggest you go to a different part of the forum. Listen to some gurbanis or something.

I'm not here to convert anyone nor am I a RSS agent (as someone accused me of recently) - as my profile states, I'm a comparative theology student - anyone who has any experience in the field knows this is what you do to all religions, question the things that don't make sense in regards to logic, reason, science, history or contradictions in the faith itself, to better understand it.

If my questions are making people uncomfortable, then I don't have any issues leaving this forum. Thanks.

[paapiman]

Question 4

ANIMALS COMING INTO HUMAN FORM ARE NOT GOVERNED BY HUMAN PROCREATION, ALL OF LIFE CREATION IS GOVERNED BY GODS LAW e.g,. THERE ARE TRILLIONS OF GHOSTS WAITING TO OBTAIN HUMAN FORM AND MILLIONS OF DEVAS AND MILLIONS ANIMALS.

@PAL 07

Again you missed the question; the reincarnation theory doesn’t fit into science in relation with world populations. As I mentioned in my question. Interesting point on Trillions of Ghosts?

Where exactly are these ghosts waiting? Can you tell me more about them please? What are they? Do they exist in heaven or earth or somewhere else? SGGS on this? If this is true then why wasn’t the human population a lot higher to begin with?

HUMANS BEINGS DON'T AUTOMATICALLY PROGRESS TO HIGHER FORMS, RARE HUMANS DO, MOST GO BACK INTO ANIMAL LIFE. THE SIKH TEACHINGS ARE THAT THE DESIRE AT THE LAST MOMENT OF YOUR LIFE WILL GOVERN YOUR FUTURE FORM

OK – again missed my question. If rare humans only go to higher form then should there be a huge increase in animal life? As most are going down then?

How do you know that life only exists on this planet earth? If life does exist elsewhere, your logic regarding both human and animal population, is flawed.

Anyways, I think there should be only one person who should be answering your questions. Otherwise, there will be too much confusion. N30 Singh Saab, do you want to do it?

Also bro, you haven't replied to my questions and comments. They are in a different topic. Please see the link below.

Peace

[truthseeker546]

Sorry I didn't see the questions you posted until now when I clicked on the link - I will do some tomorrow, a bit tired now after answering previous posts.

OK - that's right, if we had proof that E.T really existed or there were Martians then I wouldn't have asked the question. But since we don't know if aliens exist and to my knowledge the SGGS doesn't allude to any alien life form on other planets, I think my point stands. By the way if intelligent life forms existed on other planets - that would leave humans as the only ones that could make free choice decisions would it. and then of course if they didn't get any Guru's teaching them - that would rise other problems. but that's another issue, more theoretical one as we don't know about other life forms.

Also I appreciate all the different responses, only one of you mentioned the "time entity" if N30 Singh or you had replied then I would have never heard about it. Although I'm not sure if this is a orthodox Sikh belief. But for me as a non-Sikh I welcome all the different interpretations on Sikhism.

[paapiman]

Sorry I didn't see the questions you posted until now when I clicked on the link - I will do some tomorrow, a bit tired now after answering previous posts.

OK - that's right, if we had proof that E.T really existed or there were Martians then I wouldn't have asked the question. But since we don't know if aliens exist and to my knowledge the SGGS doesn't allude to any alien life form on other planets, I think my point stands. By the way if intelligent life forms existed on other planets - that would leave humans as the only ones that could make free choice decisions would it. and then of course if they didn't get any Guru's teaching them - that would rise other problems. but that's another issue, more theoretical one as we don't know about other life forms.

Also I appreciate all the different responses, only one of you mentioned the "time entity" if N30 Singh or you had replied then I would have never heard about it. Although I'm not sure if this is a orthodox Sikh belief. But for me as a non-Sikh I welcome all the different interpretations on Sikhism.

There is proof in Sikhism that life exists in other worlds. The link below should help you understand some concepts.

http://www.wahegurunet.com/astral-plane

Peace

[truthseeker546]

Interesting, will read up on this. Thanks !

[truthseeker546]

OK, this above site only mentions one story of "astral travel" - story of a person the Guru met in Baghdad. (Vaar 1 Pauri 36).

Sorry what book is this referring to? Are there any other quotes from SGGS on this? Anything on other gurus travelling to other worlds?

Also the quote above says " Upper and lower worlds" how do you know this is simply not referring to earth and the heavens? Rather the alien planets?

Thanks

[paapiman]

OK, this above site only mentions one story of "astral travel" - story of a person the Guru met in Baghdad. (Vaar 1 Pauri 36).

Sorry what book is this referring to? Are there any other quotes from SGGS on this? Anything on other gurus travelling to other worlds?

It is referring to the Vaaran of Bhai Saab Bhai Gurdas jee, who was one of the greatest scholars during the times of the gurus.

The below verse is enough to prove that God (Satguru jee) can do anything.

ਸਭਨਾ ਗਲਾ ਸਮਰਥੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮਨਹੁ ਵਿਸਾਰੇ ॥

Our Lord and Master is all-powerful to do all things, so why forget Him from your mind?

Also the quote above says " Upper and lower worlds" how do you know this is simply not referring to earth and the heavens? Rather the alien planets?

The reason God (Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj) took the son of the peer to the other worlds was to broaden the mind of the Muslims. Muslims believed that there were only seven heavens and hells. Satguru jee proved them practically that there are many many more.

In this sakhi, Satguru jee also proved the theory of relativity as the son of the peer thought that he had spent lots of time in the other worlds, while actually on earth, it was just a little bit of it.

Peace

[truthseeker546]

Is there a English translation of the Vaaran of Bhai Saab Bhai Gurdas online? If so does anyone have a link?

This is the same Bhai Gurdas Sikhs get the Dassam Granth from right?

[paapiman]

Is there a English translation of the Vaaran of Bhai Saab Bhai Gurdas online? If so does anyone have a link?

http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/pauri_by_pauri

This is the same Bhai Gurdas Sikhs get the Dassam Granth from right?

Bhai Saab Bhai Gurdas jee merged into God during the times of the sixth master. He was not physically present, during the times of tenth master. There is another Sikh scholar by the name of Bhai Gurdas Singh, who was present during the times of tenth master.

Peace

[CdnSikhGirl]

Paapiman is having trouble answering your question because he refuses to acknowledge that everything and everyone are really the Creator. And he is viewing things in a very Abrahamic light... that Creation is somehow separate from Creator.

It's almost simple when you think of it as ONE dreamer. ONE dream.

Every character within that dream is really the ONE. You can dream at night and create an entire universe within your dream. And every character you create is really you. And you can keep adding characters too! There is no lineup of ghosts etc waiting for bodies etc... because ALL souls are from the ONE primal soul.

Think of it another way... you write a play. You also decide that you will play ALL of the characters within it on stage. You can add as many characters as you want but ALL of them are really YOU under the costume.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur