Recurring Problems With Reincarnation

[paapiman]

Paapiman is having trouble answering your question because he refuses to acknowledge that everything and everyone are really the Creator. And he is viewing things in a very Abrahamic light... that Creation is somehow separate from Creator.

It's almost simple when you think of it as ONE dreamer. ONE dream.

Every character within that dream is really the ONE. You can dream at night and create an entire universe within your dream. And every character you create is really you. And you can keep adding characters too! There is no lineup of ghosts etc waiting for bodies etc... because ALL souls are from the ONE primal soul.

Think of it another way... you write a play. You also decide that you will play ALL of the characters within it on stage. You can add as many characters as you want but ALL of them are really YOU under the costume.

Let's see what truthseeker546 has to say about it.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

[truthseeker546]

First of all thanks Paapiman for the link.

So Sikhism has to Bhai Gurdas, one at the time of the 6th guru and one at the 10th Guru.

Umm as for Satkirin post. As a non sikh I question all aspects of Sikhi to get a better idea. Not to offend but to improve my own knowledge.

Out of all the people posting here, I like her posts the most as it seems she thinking about various things and not just accepting the status quo.

To give an example of other posts that are not thought out: I find the following arguments so dumb I’ve stopped addressing them;

“We are god but we are not pure like god cause we still have vikaars”

If we are all God but not pure like him – either God can be impure or we are not like God. Two statements are contradictory. Anyone can see that,

“Also, Islam does not believe in incarnation of God. If you believe, Satguru jee is not an incarnation of God, you are following the Muslim ideology.”

I don’t even know how to respond to this. Just ignore.

Keeping in mind I don’t want to go off topic – the statement about God being all of us is confusing for me, as is a formless God being in human or Hindu deity form.

Let’s take this view that God is all of us. Not in us or inspires us but IS all of us. Having different projections of his true self. What does this actually mean? When two armies are fighting each other that mean God is at war with himself? Or when a man and a woman make love, that’s actually God “enjoying” himself.

That theology has its own set of problems. As does God having 10 or 24 forms.

I think Sikhism fundamentally has a problem of not defining what God is, thus the contradictions and differences of opinion.

PS If any admin is reading this, in particular n30 S!ngh – can you open my last post – Gurus and Gods. I had lots of questions but due a discussion that went off topic (not by me!) the thread was closed. Tried PM-ing N30 but there was error that stated I couldn't.

Please open that thread for me.

Thanks

[CdnSikhGirl]

Truthseeker... this is best how I can explain it:

Everything we know to be real physically is illusion. Space, and even time are constructs. The Ultimate underlying reality is formless (no space) and unchanging (no time). Hard to picture right? Not if you look at quantum physics which states that everything really IS illusion. If you peer deeper and deeper into reality you will see that matter really is not solid. The tiny particles that exist beyond the subatomic level, behave strangely and electrons specifically, actually pop into and out of existence based on whether or not there is a conscious observer (google measurement problem / double slit experiment) Now, EVERY single atom is made of electrons. Now, everything in existence is made up of electrons as part of the atoms which make up elements etc... this is profound because scientists can not explain it. Why an electron ceases to be ' matter' and behaves as a wave (which on its own is not anything substantial, but is merely energy passing through a medium of some sort. This tells us that reality is not how we perceive it with our physical senses. And even more profound is that even our physical brains are made up of these same particles! Therefore consciousness must exist beyond the physical (or else there would be no conscious 'observer' to make the electrons come into existence which make up our brains!)

Page 21, Line 4
ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
Jah ḏekẖā ṯah rav rahe siv sakṯī kā mel.
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

So at the base level of existence exists consciousness and ONLY consciousness. Are we finally through science peering at Creator?? At this level all is unchanging. Think about it. Every electron is identical... every quark is identical, and yet somehow they come together to create all these vast different animals, plants, minerals, humans... it doesnt make sense logically because say if you stack a bunch of ping pong balls, they will always be just a stack of pingpong balls right? Something must be affecting everything at that base level and since matter does not exist without a conscious observer, it must be pure consciousness.

So if consciousness is not created by matter, and is not matter itself, and it exists outside of physical reality then what is it? Science again can give us a bit of a clue in that everything in the Universe is coordinated by frequency / vibration. Light is frequency, sound is frequency, radiation is frequency, electromagnetism is frequency (this is the force that holds atoms together) etc. Consciousness itself can be measured as purely frequencies by EEG.

SGGSJ too tells us about frequency and vibration and refers to celestial sound currents. Its no wonder that we are told that when we detune from this world, we can hear these vibrations / sound currents.

So basically all of existence is non-physical. Its formless, and absolute. There is no time no space just pure frequency. This pure frequency IS consciousness itself. And there is only ONE.

Okay so what is creation then? A thought? A dream?

ਭਭਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਮਿਟਾਵਹੁ ਅਪਨਾ ॥

Bẖabẖā bẖaram mitāvhu apnā.

BHABHA: Cast out your doubt and delusion -

ਇਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸੁਪਨਾ ॥

I▫ā sansār sagal hai supnā.

this world is just a dream.

So, there is ONE Consciousness, and it's dreaming or thinking this reality into existence. Inside the dream, there is time and space (think about when you dream at night.... how can you say how much 'space' your dreamworld takes up? You can't because in reality its only frequency of your thoughts. In your dreams, there are different characters right? Some seem to interact separately from you... but are they really separate? Or are ALL the dream characters really created by your own thoughts? Imagine in your dream you are chased by a monster... is that monster some separate entity? Or is it still part of you and being controlled by your own consciousness (or subconscious)?? All the good and all the bad that happen within your dreams are still ALL YOU.

Now... the kicker... rembering that this world is ALSO just a dream. And there was only ever ONE consciousness... then WHO really is the dreamer?? Or are you just the little dreamer within the BIG dream?? Remember that we have peered into quantum level and this reality is also not the solid matter we think it is! IT TOO is merely frequency!!! And consciousness creates the construct that we experience.

So can you understand now, how ALL of the characters are really ONE Creator playing all of them? And also how a dream would evolve over time? We know the Universe is expanding right? What is it expanding into? What lies beyond? This dilemma ceases to exist when you realize that the Universe is the dream, and dreams do not take up any space at all since they are merely thoughts. As the dreamer continues to dream, the dreamworld gets larger, and expands.... think again of your own dreams. You start on a road and then you drive down that road, and the construct gets larger as your mind creates more and more dreamworld.

Now to reincarnation... the question of life after death is moot really. Classical idea of reincarnation doesnt make sense... but when you look at it as that the nonphysical consciousness is evolving and becoming self aware, then it makes sense. It's a constant process of continually unfolding consciousness and awareness. Since we are all part of that consciousness, and these bodies are just shells... just dream characters, then the only real true consciousness is that of Waheguru Ji. And there is no separateness... there never was. It's just an illusion of separateness.

At some point you will have played the part of every character that has ever lived or ever will live. In fact you have already done this!
Because in actuality they are all really the same ONE actor. You/I/We have just forgotten who we really are.

So why did the Creator cause itself to become lost in this dreamworld as many separate characters who have forgotten who they really are? Because its the only way it can contemplate itself (because from the vantage point of ONEness it knows nothing else)

It has been said that reality is the act of the ONE Creator, subjectively experiencing itself through its own creation. A process of unfolding consciousness... the Universe itself is becoming self aware.

I could post many Gurbani tuks to support all of the above, however its already a long read... LOL. You can find them yourself!

[paapiman]

I think Sikhism fundamentally has a problem of not defining what God is, thus the contradictions and differences of opinion.

I think the fundamental problem lies in your brain, which is still immature to understand high level concepts. Don't be offended, I am in your boat too.

Peace

[truthseeker546]

@Paapiman. well it could be my brain, but i've come to a Sikh forum to try and understand. The reason I said I said SIKHISM has a problem of not defining what God is because there are so many interpretations of what you think God is.

He is one, he can be many, He can't be born or die, but he was born and died several times. would be suprised if the Gurus had children normally (via sexual intercourse), they didn't have sexual intercourse. etc etc. these are all answers from Sikhs themselves. you can read them on this forum.

I ask simpl questions, and some of you guys start arguing amongst yourselves, which is proof that there is no clear cut answer to a lot of these fundamental questions. including defining what or who is God.

[truthseeker546]

Thanks satkirin, I will read and try to understand your view and then get back to you.

[paapiman]

@Paapiman. well it could be my brain, but i've come to a Sikh forum to try and understand. The reason I said I said SIKHISM has a problem of not defining what God is because there are so many interpretations of what you think God is.

He is one, he can be many, He can't be born or die, but he was born and died several times. would be suprised if the Gurus had children normally (via sexual intercourse), they didn't have sexual intercourse. etc etc. these are all answers from Sikhs themselves. you can read them on this forum.

I ask simpl questions, and some of you guys start arguing amongst yourselves, which is proof that there is no clear cut answer to a lot of these fundamental questions. including defining what or who is God.

One does not need a phd to understand that different people will have varying opinions. Furthermore, not all people on this forum are scholars, including myself.

Peace

[paapiman]

To give an example of other posts that are not thought out: I find the following arguments so dumb I’ve stopped addressing them;

“We are god but we are not pure like god cause we still have vikaars”

If we are all God but not pure like him – either God can be impure or we are not like God. Two statements are contradictory. Anyone can see that,

“Also, Islam does not believe in incarnation of God. If you believe, Satguru jee is not an incarnation of God, you are following the Muslim ideology.”

I don’t even know how to respond to this. Just ignore.

Instead of calling other people's opinion as dumb (being offensive) and poking your nose in a comment that does not pertain to you (if you had read the posts in this topic carefully, you would have understood, why I gave reference to Islam - Are you seriously reading posts properly), can you answer the questions, which I asked you a long time ago?

Peace

[CdnSikhGirl]

Truthseeker, my explanation above is based entirely on Gurbani alone... not what some babas or "some" unnamed Gurmukh said. It is applying what is exactly being said in Gurbani, with some comparisons to science. I think I have explained how all are God and God is ALL successfully so you can understand. And also how God never takes birth or dies, but also how some of the 'characters' played by God in this dream can become fully awakened within the dream and essentially become "God conscious" (like the Gurus...but also others as Brahmgyanis have attained this). If you have any questions on specific concepts I mentioned above, I can try to explain further.

The Abrahamic concept does not fit in Sikhi because God is not something separate from Creation. Some of the explanations given by others on here seem to lean towards the Abrahamic concept where God is something separate and we are impure, dirty etc. and can never understand or become attuned to God. This is wrong thinking and perpetuates hoplessness and actually drives one away from the reason we are here. The whole point of Sikhi and this human life, is to awaken to our true identity and learn the underlying truth to reality which we are told unequivocally is within ourselves. We are told this human form is rare, and that by reaching here THIS IS OUR CHANCE HERE AND NOW, to realize God!!! Not some future promise in a distant future incarnation etc. HERE AND NOW. And that we should not waste this chance. By thinking we are too dirty too impure, etc we are telling ourselves we can never attain this goal... and so most never do. Instead, we should focus... ask ourselves every day what we can do to improve, do simran regularly, contemplate Gurbani FOR OURSELVES (and not just accept what some baba said) because this is OUR OWN chance, someone else can not do the work for us. We have to realize the truth on our own. Though we ARE given the tools... Gurbani is there for us to read and contemplate ourselves.

I hope this makes sense??

[Ragmaala]

The wall of haumai/ ego separates us from the Creator. Once that wall/layer is removed with grace of Guru then we can truly call ourselves One with God.

[paapiman]

The wall of haumai/ ego separates us from the Creator. Once that wall/layer is removed with grace of Guru then we can truly call ourselves One with God.

Good one bro. Ego is such a bloody dangerous demon.

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

Edited May 2, 2015 by paapiman

[Soulfinder]

Here is a really good sakhi dass found today on 

ichadhari naag worth listening to

 

[Sikhilove]

On 4/30/2015 at 8:01 PM, CdnSikhGirl said:

Truthseeker... this is best how I can explain it:

 

Everything we know to be real physically is illusion. Space, and even time are constructs. The Ultimate underlying reality is formless (no space) and unchanging (no time). Hard to picture right? Not if you look at quantum physics which states that everything really IS illusion. If you peer deeper and deeper into reality you will see that matter really is not solid. The tiny particles that exist beyond the subatomic level, behave strangely and electrons specifically, actually pop into and out of existence based on whether or not there is a conscious observer (google measurement problem / double slit experiment) Now, EVERY single atom is made of electrons. Now, everything in existence is made up of electrons as part of the atoms which make up elements etc... this is profound because scientists can not explain it. Why an electron ceases to be ' matter' and behaves as a wave (which on its own is not anything substantial, but is merely energy passing through a medium of some sort. This tells us that reality is not how we perceive it with our physical senses. And even more profound is that even our physical brains are made up of these same particles! Therefore consciousness must exist beyond the physical (or else there would be no conscious 'observer' to make the electrons come into existence which make up our brains!)

 

Page 21, Line 4
ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ਕਾ ਮੇਲੁ ॥
Jah ḏekẖā ṯah rav rahe siv sakṯī kā mel.
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of consciousness and matter.

So at the base level of existence exists consciousness and ONLY consciousness. Are we finally through science peering at Creator?? At this level all is unchanging. Think about it. Every electron is identical... every quark is identical, and yet somehow they come together to create all these vast different animals, plants, minerals, humans... it doesnt make sense logically because say if you stack a bunch of ping pong balls, they will always be just a stack of pingpong balls right? Something must be affecting everything at that base level and since matter does not exist without a conscious observer, it must be pure consciousness.

So if consciousness is not created by matter, and is not matter itself, and it exists outside of physical reality then what is it? Science again can give us a bit of a clue in that everything in the Universe is coordinated by frequency / vibration. Light is frequency, sound is frequency, radiation is frequency, electromagnetism is frequency (this is the force that holds atoms together) etc. Consciousness itself can be measured as purely frequencies by EEG.

SGGSJ too tells us about frequency and vibration and refers to celestial sound currents. Its no wonder that we are told that when we detune from this world, we can hear these vibrations / sound currents.

 

So basically all of existence is non-physical. Its formless, and absolute. There is no time no space just pure frequency. This pure frequency IS consciousness itself. And there is only ONE.

 

Okay so what is creation then? A thought? A dream?

 

 

ਭਭਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਮਿਟਾਵਹੁ ਅਪਨਾ ॥

Bẖabẖā bẖaram mitāvhu apnā.

BHABHA: Cast out your doubt and delusion -

 

ਇਆ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸੁਪਨਾ ॥

I▫ā sansār sagal hai supnā.

this world is just a dream.

So, there is ONE Consciousness, and it's dreaming or thinking this reality into existence. Inside the dream, there is time and space (think about when you dream at night.... how can you say how much 'space' your dreamworld takes up? You can't because in reality its only frequency of your thoughts. In your dreams, there are different characters right? Some seem to interact separately from you... but are they really separate? Or are ALL the dream characters really created by your own thoughts? Imagine in your dream you are chased by a monster... is that monster some separate entity? Or is it still part of you and being controlled by your own consciousness (or subconscious)?? All the good and all the bad that happen within your dreams are still ALL YOU.

 

Now... the kicker... rembering that this world is ALSO just a dream. And there was only ever ONE consciousness... then WHO really is the dreamer?? Or are you just the little dreamer within the BIG dream?? Remember that we have peered into quantum level and this reality is also not the solid matter we think it is! IT TOO is merely frequency!!! And consciousness creates the construct that we experience.

 

So can you understand now, how ALL of the characters are really ONE Creator playing all of them? And also how a dream would evolve over time? We know the Universe is expanding right? What is it expanding into? What lies beyond? This dilemma ceases to exist when you realize that the Universe is the dream, and dreams do not take up any space at all since they are merely thoughts. As the dreamer continues to dream, the dreamworld gets larger, and expands.... think again of your own dreams. You start on a road and then you drive down that road, and the construct gets larger as your mind creates more and more dreamworld.

Now to reincarnation... the question of life after death is moot really. Classical idea of reincarnation doesnt make sense... but when you look at it as that the nonphysical consciousness is evolving and becoming self aware, then it makes sense. It's a constant process of continually unfolding consciousness and awareness. Since we are all part of that consciousness, and these bodies are just shells... just dream characters, then the only real true consciousness is that of Waheguru Ji. And there is no separateness... there never was. It's just an illusion of separateness.

At some point you will have played the part of every character that has ever lived or ever will live. In fact you have already done this!
Because in actuality they are all really the same ONE actor. You/I/We have just forgotten who we really are.

So why did the Creator cause itself to become lost in this dreamworld as many separate characters who have forgotten who they really are? Because its the only way it can contemplate itself (because from the vantage point of ONEness it knows nothing else)

It has been said that reality is the act of the ONE Creator, subjectively experiencing itself through its own creation. A process of unfolding consciousness... the Universe itself is becoming self aware.

 

I could post many Gurbani tuks to support all of the above, however its already a long read... LOL. You can find them yourself!

Agreed. Although God created us out of pure unconditional Love, to discover what He did in a fraction of the time. For He himself sat in the primal void for many ages in deep contemplation of Himself. 
 

Truth is a Pure Unconditional Love. 

[Sikhilove]

On 5/2/2015 at 1:01 AM, paapiman said:

 

Good one bro. Ego is such a bloody dangerous demon.

 

Waheguru jee kaa Khalsa

Waheguru jee kee Fateh

God is One, Truth is One, We are One. It is beyond logic and can only be experienced. The reality is True Unconditional Love. Love in Dukh and Sukh. Both two sides of the same coin. 
 

There is no ego, it’s an illusion. As is fear etc. We may walk around, thinking we’re rebelling, that we’re beyond God etc. But the reality is that Hes your clothes, He’s the sun, Hes day and Night, Hes the food you eat, your father, mother, brother, sister, Your glory, Body etc. We are fools to think we are separate.
 

When we truly sit within ourselves, grounded, seeing past the illusion, we see that He is Us and we are Him. We are not higher or lower, better or worse, richer or poorer. We are Him. He is not beyond Us,and we are not beyond Him, for He Is Us. We realise this In humility and love. 
 

He is not unattainable, He is right here, we are One.