Sherni-E-Punjab Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 very good. Are you a lawyer? One mistake... The Father, recognized as a Sikh figure in society, therefore, as far as you know, is a Singh, a Sikh. Where in Sikhi does it say it's OK to kill your daughter for such an act? JSB, Don't you understand-Sikhi has nothing to do with us. A lot of people are recognized as Sikh figures in society, just cause they born into a Sikhi-Doesn't mean they Sikhs, Yeh. I could be considered a Sikh figure, But I ain't a gursikh. Get what me saying? Its all Punjabi ( Desi) Culture! .. Sikhi has absolutely nothing to do with it. Plus, If on the other hand they were sikhs..The Name Atwal wouldn't be used.. Be Plain Kaur or Singh.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 look, i understand your point.....but think of my point for a second. how do you know whether he's a gursikh or not now, if he's not, why is everyone justifying his case, and if he is, how come no one can prove that he did the right thing? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 canadian jatti - either your twisting my words or misinterpretting them... look at my reply, the first thing i said is "i dont agree on him killin her".... some people are really strong in these situations where they see their kids doin things which they dont approve of..... i doubt there is any person who could smile when they see their child BOY OR GIRL goin out with someone from a diff race let alone religion. i can understand why he went and did such a thing... and thats why i dont blame him... but i dont agree with what he did... i have seen the effects myself about this .. close family members have married goriya - and ive seen how mad someone can get when they react to news such as.... "hey dad im gonna marry a gori" :twisted: desikudi (rupy) understands by what i mean that the kuri is the familys izzat.... kuriya are more understanding and senstive then mundey... u agree?..... the importance of a woman within familys is much higher then of a man... u dont agree with that??... this is not a thing about equality.... its about understanding the mental frame of the father.... he found about his daughter after the car crash.. hes BOUND to have talked to her... sayin dont go with this guy any more.... he definitly cudnt have jus ignored it... and then he finds out shes run away from home... LEFT A CRUMMY NOTE ... and gone with this gora.... ur tryin to tell me if ur daughter/son run away - it wudnt even have to be with anyone... that youd be happy about it??..... put ontop of that they went against ur instructions to stay away from their bf/gf and ran off??... sorry but no one can turn a blind eye and not do anything about it.... like i said earlier everyone acts different.... some in rage... some in verbal... some in murder.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherni-E-Punjab Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 look, i understand your point.....but think of my point for a second. how do you know whether he's a gursikh or not now, if he's not, why is everyone justifying his case, and if he is, how come no one can prove that he did the right thing? Alright Following reason why I say he is not a gursikh. Its very rare ..-perhaps 1% that he is a gursikh. He would have taught his daughter "such" morals-Runnin off with a gora is totally not a Sikh's way of life. Plus, I don't think the last name Atwal be in use. Be Singh or Kaur. Moreover, I think his kids would have been interested in Sikhi too-doin eyebrows, cutting hair< Not a Sikh's way of life. Again, I might be wrong...1% chance. You tell me why do you think he is a-Gursikh? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 i'm not saying he is...but i'm not gonna say that he isn't....that's not my call secondly, atwal WOULD be used. Newsreporters seldom know the difference. thirdly, it's been discussed soooo much on these boards, of parents who're totally into sikhi, but the kids who want to experience a bit of a western culture, too. i'm just wondering, and especially coming from a bhanji, such as you, how can you justify what he's done. and essentially everyone is either saying that the punishment fits the crime, or that he had to do it, or some stuff like that. Think about this for just a second. Son going out with white girl.... no punishment Daughter going out with white guy.... death nogroupsingh says: why do sikhi rules apply to her: granted, maybe they don't, but because the article states that they attended gurdwara regularly, and that Mr. Atwal was active in the Gurdwara, sikhi rules should at least apply to him, therefore, find me proof, that it's ok for him to kill his non-sikh daughter, if you want to call her that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherni-E-Punjab Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 i'm not saying he is...but i'm not gonna say that he isn't....that's not my call Well, It isn't my call either. Sayin' what I am saying on the information provided-and thats the best I can do- Unless, someone knows that guy personally. secondly, atwal WOULD be used. Newsreporters seldom know the difference. Usually, It's the legal name. I have been in papers. Never was Rupinder K. (My Last Name) ..- It was always Kaur. Reporters can get sued for reporting false information and such, and usually thats verified by more than one source. thirdly, it's been discussed soooo much on these boards, of parents who're totally into sikhi, but the kids who want to experience a bit of a western culture, too. Yeh, but there is 'some' effect. If not much, but then again we can't be certain. Son going out with white girl.... no punishment Daughter going out with white guy.... death Son, probably talked about it, and stuff. Was okay with the family. He never left a note, and ran off. Where as this whole killing part came in when the girl left the family with a note. Yeh? nogroupsingh says: why do sikhi rules apply to her: granted, maybe they don't, but because the article states that they attended gurdwara regularly, and that Mr. Atwal was active in the Gurdwara, sikhi rules should at least apply to him, therefore, find me proof, that it's ok for him to kill his non-sikh daughter, if you want to call her that. Well, believe it or not, there is hell of apney that go gurudwara and do seva and become invovled. But, do you really know what they do ..the rest 6 days of week. I know hell of mundas-show up at the gurudwara- do seva -become invovled-you find em at clubs the rest 6 days. Soo, It really don't matter Heheh, By the way, You called me pehn.. Tomm'z Rakhri..You want my Pay Pal Acct. Number?? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 haha sure, why not! not like i have an account, or a credit card, but SUREEEE! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaNaDiAn_jAtTi Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 Whoa buddies... chill and calm down... Obviously no one took the time to read what I wrote in response to neo ji's replies to me... (except for steel ji).... Mates... there's a fundamental crime when u call ur daughters izzat... You're treating them more as property then u are as human beings. And to desi Kuddi Ji, no i'm not proud of being a property that is looked after by her father, only to be given to her husband to take care of her and then who must rely on her son for support. I am an individual with thoughts, feelings and my own personality... I am in equal within my household with my parents and my siblings... in some ways (being the eldest of three daughters) I am the son of the family making sure that everyone is alrite and helping out my parents with whatever they need... To me that is an equal.... I do not pride myself in this punjabi culture of the being the izzat of the family as it demoralizes females and tends to subdue them rather than bringin out the strong inner shakti in them... in the punjabi culture females are a burden to their family.... I AM NOT!... Also never did I say that the father was a gursikh.... my comments were mainly with the board members that had said that basically they understood the reason why the father killed his daughter... out of rage for her going out with a gora behind their back... One cannot understand nor sympathize with an action such as this... Ok, it seems like a lot of you are not here in the present... things like this are happening amongst the youth but that is not the proper way to act in such a situation, we are no less than animals then... My own cousin did a similar deed except that her dad found out through some pictures, and she was given a choice to end the relationship or leave, she chose to leave... and what the hell she's doin now God knows, we don't care... that's a sensible way of going about it... For one to excuse murder as insanity, pluhleez... murder is murder, u have taken the life of another and that is not up to you... There is no excuse in my books for killing anyone whether it be based on broken trust, love or whateva the hell is goin on in ur family.... one should say, the person made a choice good or bad... thats upto God to decide... leave the person alone... and move on with yours... for their more to life then some person leaving... and i know it's hard for the majority out there as the whole thing of "I've raised them their whole lives and this is how they repay me" mentality seeps in...excuse me, but for such an action to occur there has to be a problem within the family, with communication (whether it be with her friends, or the parents not spending time with her or what..)... hey... I was asked out by a gora, but I discussed it with my parents and let them know what was going on and then told the guy to buzz off... there's an open line of communication here... we actually make the effort to talk and solve problems rather than hide them.... It seems to me that since I posted a certain thread that ppl look for opportunities to condemn without looking at what i'm trying to say... whatever to u mates... but I'd where's the fun in the boards then if everyone tends to have the same mindset and follows with out questioning our actions... I say chill, take a step back, breath and look at the overall picture.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 where has anyone even said that a kuri is not equal?? if anything we are saying that the position of the kuri within a family is more prestigious... read the guru granth sahib and see how much woman is praised essentially women and men are very different... women are more sensitive - caring - loving then men.... men on the other hand tend to be more arrogant - less emotional etc.... but that doesnt make them different.. and are still treated as equals.. i never said that the kuri should get killed while the boy should get away with it..... i dont agree in any of this it doesnt matter whether ur a boy or a girl... wheres this whole property thing come from??? who said u was the property of someone??? who said u cudnt be independant?? again stop tryin to twist words .. u have a surname... watever that is.... you have it cos u are PART OF A FAMILY.... this family has feelings for u .... this family wishes that you get the most out of ur life and hope that you live to hold the status of ur family with respect.... now if someone runs off with a gora wat holding respect is that?? whether the person is a gursikh or not... whether hes takin amrit or hes a mona... is has no bearing upon this discussion... the discussion is about values.. about respect for ur fathers decision... like i said different people act in different ways.... sikhs do bad things yes i agree.... muslims do bad things... christians do bad things.... who doesnt??..... the fact is that when u see "sikh guy kills daughter" u automatically blame the religion... u judge everyone in the same way that you judge this person which is not right i dont agree with him killin her - hes ruined his own life - finished his daughters life and his family name is even more tarnished.. i feel that whether ur a boy or a girl this shouldnt be allowed even if this kuri ran away with an apna i wudnt have agreed with it so before u reply back with "i cant believe what you lot are saying" i suggest u read the last paragraph again..... and again... and again 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ideal Singh Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 Well I have read all the responsez to the topic. All said and done I am surprized that NO ONE could look beyond the boundariez of Sikhizm. No one ever tried to look into the Humanity aspect of the story. Some are supporing the actz of the father becasue He was a respectable Sikh and some are debating whether he is a Sikh or not... Ridiculous !! Don't you people think that before we are Sikhz, we are Humanz first. Humanity is the base of Sikhizm. My dear friendz!! Whether her father was a Sikh or not, it doezn't matter... Do you think that if the father happened to be a Christian or a Hindu or a Muslim or of whatever Religion then he would have the right to commit such a hienouz crime against Humanity. Doez any other Religion supportz the actz of AMANDEEP'z father... I don't think so... There is no need to generalise the act of one person to tarnish the image of Sikhizm... Xceptions are everywhere and this rule holdz good to this case as well... The act of the father is condemonable and there is not remedy to it... He acted a loserz way and even after committing the crime hez a loser... and His rest of the family even a gr8ter loser... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 Karma. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 I am an individual with thoughts, feelings and my own personality... I am in equal within my household with my parents and my siblings... in some ways (being the eldest of three daughters) I am the son of the family making sure that everyone is alrite and helping out my parents with whatever they need... To me that is an equal.... I do not pride myself in this punjabi culture of the being the izzat of the family as it demoralizes females and tends to subdue them rather than bringin out the strong inner shakti in them... in the punjabi culture females are a burden to their family.... I AM NOT!... I agree, I am the eldest of three daughters too :wink: , and nowadays daughters have as much, if not more responsibility towards the family. CanadianJatti Penji, please don't feel that anyone is disagreeing with you only because you posted a thread or anything, in fact I agree wholeheartedly with your above comments. Steel Bhaji was not saying the act is justified, perhaps he meant the emotion behind the act was understandable. I think IDEAL Singh made a great point, we need to be more compassionate, and I pray Vaheguru blesses the family :cry: :cry: :cry: Gurfateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherni-E-Punjab Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 haha sure, why not! not like i have an account, or a credit card, but SUREEEE! Chal, JSB, We will do it the old fashion way and won't even take it as far as Pay Pal. Direct transferring- I give you my bank account number, and you wire the funds straight. Here is the information Bank Name: Doaba Bank of Nawanshar Acct Number: 2456562321 Routing Number: 54545 Mates... there's a fundamental crime when u call ur daughters izzat... You're treating them more as property then u are as human beings. And to desi Kuddi Ji, no i'm not proud of being a property that is looked after by her father, only to be given to her husband to take care of her and then who must rely on her son for support You say, Fundamental Crime?? Isn't it a fundamental crime when you sleep with somebody before your marriage. Most girls, in this age and era, get treated like property when they go out on dates. Usually, you get your man to pay for food, dinner, movies, and etc. and then the guy wants that in return. Like thats suppose to be a mutual friendship-or something? Thats worse than what we are talking about. Usually, high school dating takes you no where besides the bed. Its just that ummar, where you want to try everything. And, now you tell me what does a 14 yr old girl know about love?? In that age usually you want to find the hottest guy, be cool, preppish, and popular. There isn't a true love in that age. Its like you f$*($ one - and on the next one. You rather lose your izzat -just on the base so you 'cool -and popular' in school. Like they say " Akhian othey lahvo jithe mah peh di izzat hovey" .. Iam an individual with thoughts, feelings and my own personality... I am in equal within my household with my parents and my siblings... in some ways (being the eldest of three daughters) I am the son of the family making sure that everyone is alrite and helping out my parents with whatever they need... To me that is an equal.... I do not pride myself in this punjabi culture of the being the izzat of the family as it demoralizes females and tends to subdue them rather than bringin out the strong inner shakti in them... in the punjabi culture females are a burden to their family.... I AM NOT!... You can still have your individual thoughts, feelings, and your own personality but still having the utmost respect for your mom and dad. I never said guys and girls weren't equal, I just said girls tend to hold a higher respect or higher position in their family. Our ancestors didn't work hard, so only their grand-grand-grand children could screw up the family name and run off with a gora and mess up future by these new breed of love drama. .... I do not pride myself in this punjabi culture of the being the izzat of the family as it demoralizes females and tends to subdue them rather than bringin out the strong inner shakti in them... in the punjabi culture females are a burden to their family.... I AM NOT!... Girls are a burden in punjabi culture?? Oh, Really, I didn't know - Got anything to back that up with? Also never did I say that the father was a gursikh.... my comments were mainly with the board members that had said that basically they understood the reason why the father killed his daughter... out of rage for her going out with a gora behind their back... It doesn't matter if he is gursikh or not, but as Truthsingh said back in the day Sikhs were proud to be sikh. In no way, was she proud to be a sikh-'Cause runnin' off with a gora is totally not a Sikhi thing. So basically it all boils down to that it doesn't matter if he was a sikh or non-sikh. People were just implyin' stuff and getting Sikhi involved-So thats why it was clairified. Ok, it seems like a lot of you are not here in the present... things like this are happening amongst the youth but that is not the proper way to act in such a situation, we are no less than animals then... Technically, Animals are smarter in this period of time. Least, they check what they getting, or what they are eating - by sniffing. We, as humans, just go where we get that "LOVE"(Intercourse)- and not even give a second thought or anything. My own cousin did a similar deed except that her dad found out through some pictures, and she was given a choice to end the relationship or leave, she chose to leave... and what the hell she's doin now God knows, we don't care... that's a sensible way of going about it... Well, do you know any whearbouts of your cousin. You never knew if that guy is keeper or just a user. Like all the sudden you want to betray your parents -who've raised you to who you be..to a guy whose only known and ABUSED you for two years. And, there is no doubt that two years usually physical love. It gets more trembling when the guy that the girl ran off with dumps her couple years later- and then the girl is nor parent's daughter and nor the guy's 'baby.' And afterall, this chain continues of hookin' up and dumpin' and so forth. And at the end, the family completely loses their izzat. Least that guy(Mr. Atwal), (Even though he will have to face consquences)-that he is got the assurance that his daughter won't ruin the family name more than she already did. There is no excuse in my books for killing anyone whether it be based on broken trust, love or whateva the hell is goin on in ur family.... one should say, the person made a choice good or bad... thats upto God to decide... leave the person alone... and move on with yours... for their more to life then some person leaving... and i know it's hard for the majority out there as the whole thing of "I've raised them their whole lives and this is how they repay me" mentality seeps in. There is no excuse in any books for why a child should betray their parents. If you want to go by what you just said- Legally, the girl was only 18 and not even old enough to make choices for her self. Her dad was still her guide, so her dad did what was right in his book excuse me, but for such an action to occur there has to be a problem within the family, with communication (whether it be with her friends, or the parents not spending time with her or what..)... hey... I was asked out by a gora, but I discussed it with my parents and let them know what was going on and then told the guy to buzz off... there's an open line of communication here... we actually make the effort to talk and solve problems rather than hide them.... Yeh, well the community we live in- we see goras every day. Its for us to avoid them, and tell them hey this is the deal-and etc. You as an individual ( without parental consent) should know whats right and whats wrong for your family and you. Bottom line is, NO ONE ( and I repeat NO ONE) can force you into a relation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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