Why Sikhi failed to spread

[kdsingh80]

Sikhi is about quality not quantity. Sant ji said Hindu+Muslims should be good Hindu's and Muslims

Time has changed quality now don't rule over quantity. Forget about political power if you believe in quality

[SikhKhoj]

And Sikhi will not grow in numbers if we do not accept Sahajdharis as an inseperable part of our nation.

Bhai Nabha says in his Mahan Kosh:

"There are lots of sahajdharis in Punjab and Sind. Sahajdharis especially those of Sind are very affectionate and devoted. Singhs, who look down upon them, are ignorant of the tenets of Sikhism"

[paapiman]

And Sikhi will not grow in numbers if we do not accept Sahajdharis as an inseperable part of our nation.

Bhai Nabha says in his Mahan Kosh:

"There are lots of sahajdharis in Punjab and Sind. Sahajdharis especially those of Sind are very affectionate and devoted. Singhs, who look down upon them, are ignorant of the tenets of Sikhism"

Correct me if I am wrong, Sindhi Sehajdharis consider themselves to be Hindus, but have love for first master. They are indeed, Sehajdharis.

Bhul chuk maaf

[Guest]

Correct me if I am wrong, Sindhi Sehajdharis consider themselves to be Hindus, but have love for first master. They are indeed, Sehajdharis.

Bhul chuk maaf

You really playing with semantics here which makes no sense. They are sikh in their own right. Let Vahiguru be witness or judge between them and Vahiguru. End of story. 

[paapiman]

You really playing with semantics here which makes no sense. They are sikh in their own right. Let Vahiguru be witness or judge between them and Vahiguru. End of story. 

Bro, the point is that the term "Sehajdhari" was used for non-Sikhs in the past. People born in other faiths and who had shardha towards Satguru jee.

How can Bajjar kurehatiye and patits be classified as Sehajdharis? This term is being misinterpreted and misused now.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 25, 2015 by paapiman

[mrsingh]

Mrsingh are you the ... uklondonsikh poster from sikh sangat?

Yes indeed Chatanga Paji. I thought you were aware of this when myself and you had the debates we did on SikhAwareness.com with Sher in Feb 2014 (for which I must express my respect for your contribution towards).

Chatanga bro there's a group of them there infesting SikhSangat check posts by SinghSabha1699, DTF, UklondonSikh, isingh1699, ocelot and it's the same continual bs about drugs, caste, abortion time after time with nothing spiritual. Not surprising since they don't even consider the charitars as Gurbani

Why don't you have the courage to openly debate about any point that you disagree with me and others wih similar thinking?

Yes drugs, alcohol, biraderi apartheid, female infanticide, illiteracy, cancer and poverty are some of the biggest challenges we need to immediately address as a united Sikh Panth.

But you are most welcome to stick your head in the sand and focus on the reading of Triya Charitar erotica as your Gurbani

 

Sikhi is about quality not quantity...

Hindu+Muslims should be good Hindu's and Muslims

In other words the 99.6% of the human population who are not born with any connection to Sikhi should remain stuck to the beliefs of their parents. Essentially, you want Sikhs to remain a miniscule minority so that the Panth can be dominated politically and be susceptible to Genocide from opponents such as Congress or Pakistan. You fear the expansion of Sikhi.

Time has changed quality now don't rule over quantity. Forget about political power if you believe in quality

Well said KD Singh Paji as usual

And Sikhi will not grow in numbers if we do not accept Sahajdharis as an inseperable part of our nation.

Bhai Nabha says in his Mahan Kosh:

"There are lots of sahajdharis in Punjab and Sind. Sahajdharis especially those of Sind are very affectionate and devoted. Singhs, who look down upon them, are ignorant of the tenets of Sikhism"

Well said SikhKhoj Paji as usual. If only we can be more accepting of non-Punjabi sehajdhari Sikhs there is no reason (on the basis of logic alone) that Sikhi cannot become the majority faith within India in this century. If however, we want restrict the definition of a Sikh to an Amritdhari in order that our opponents can define us as an intrinsic minority within Punjab, then we can only look forward to more of the same as has occurred in the last 35 years.

Correct me if I am wrong,

No Paapi it's self-proclaimed non-Sikhs like yourself that wish for them to be excluded from the Sikh Panth.

As you realise that the larger the Sikh Panth grows population wise, the stronger we get and the more Khalsa will arise. 

They (Sindhi's) are Sikh in their own right. Let Vahiguru be witness or judge between them and Vahiguru. End of story. 

Well said as usual N30 Paji

"Sehajdhari" was used for non-Sikhs in the past.

Sehajdhari's are Sikhs by automatic default and definition.

I don't understand why the definition of a Sikh matters so much to you as a self-proclaimed non-Sikh?

[paapiman]

No Paapi it's self-proclaimed non-Sikhs like yourself that wish for them to be excluded from the Sikh Panth.

As you realise that the larger the Sikh Panth grows population wise, the stronger we get and the more Khalsa will arise. 

Sehajdhari's are Sikhs by automatic default and definition.

I don't understand why the definition of a Sikh matters so much to you as a self-proclaimed non-Sikh?

Please use Gurbani to prove that alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc, can be classified as Sikhs.

Bhul chuk maaf

[Guest]

Please use Gurbani to prove that alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc, can be classified as Sikhs.

Bhul chuk maaf

So if you are mona you are automatically a alcoholics,  smoker, meat eater,  drug user, adulterous, perverts, prostitute? 

That's great logic or Sikh way  (sarcasm off). Unbelieveable....  I would trust a mona than religuous self righteous condescending person with kinda mindset. 

[paapiman]

So if you are mona you are automatically a alcoholics,  smoker, meat eater,  drug user, adulterous, perverts, prostitute? 

Daas never said that. 

The Bajjar Kurehits put a mona in the same category as an adulterous person, meat eater, alcoholic, smoker, etc. Our father did that, not me.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 26, 2015 by paapiman

[Ragmaala]

paapiman, you should start a new topic on Who is a Sikh acc. to you or as per your interpretation ?

[mrsingh]

prove that alcoholics, smokers, meat eaters, drug users, hair cutters, adulterous people, perverts, prostitutes, etc, can be classified as Sikhs.

Paapi Ji Gurbani is quite clear that imbibing alcohol, smoking narcotics, visiting prostitutes and lacking compassion are unbecoming of a true Sikh (Gurmukh). However, in temporal terms we accept that the Sikh Panth is not comprised solely of Gurmukhs and that there is a sehajdhari majority within the Panth that need to encouraged towards Gurmat rather than alienated and ostracised away from the Sikh Panth altogether.

Since you yourself admit that you are a non-Sikh and consider Nihangs that do jhatka as non-Sikhs, your opinion as to who constitutes a member of the Sikh Panth aligns perfectly with the opinions of Hindutva opponents of the Sikh Panth.

[paapiman]

Paapi Ji Gurbani is quite clear that imbibing alcohol, smoking narcotics, visiting prostitutes and lacking compassion are unbecoming of a true Sikh (Gurmukh). However, in temporal terms we accept that the Sikh Panth is not comprised solely of Gurmukhs and that there is a sehajdhari majority within the Panth that need to encouraged towards Gurmat rather than alienated and ostracised away from the Sikh Panth altogether.

Bro, you have a point, but we cannot start calling people who commit any one of the 4 cardinal sins, as Sikhs. This will be going against the very basics of our religion. Do you want us to destroy our foundations?

Having said that, we must respect them and try to bring them back into Sikhi, with love and compassion.

 

Since you yourself admit that you are a non-Sikh and consider Nihangs that do jhatka as non-Sikhs, your opinion as to who constitutes a member of the Sikh Panth aligns perfectly with the opinions of Hindutva opponents of the Sikh Panth.

Not all Nihangs, eat meat. Also, Nihangs are not allowed to eat meat from shops. They follow a specific maryada.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 26, 2015 by paapiman

[mrsingh]

but we cannot start calling people who commit any one of the 4 cardinal sins, as Sikhs.

Mr = Paji in a spiritual sense it is absolutely clear that patits, those that drink, those that do drugs, those that visit prostitutes are manmukhs like yourself and me. Manmukhs are clearly the opposite to true Sikhs (Gurmukhs). The number of Gurmukhs in this world in so small as to be statistically negligible ie less than 0.1% of the human population. By that criteria most of us on this forum do not count as true Sikhs (not just yourself). However, in a temporal sense, living in the real world we need to realise that a greater number of Khalsa will only arise from a greater population base of the Sikh Panth and we need to re-integrate all our sehajdhari non-Punjabi brothers and sisters back into the Sikh Panth. Only by interaction will the message of Gurmat gain greater adherence. By alienating people away from Sikhi as we have done in the last 70 years the results are painfully clear to see. The Sikh Panth has not strengthened since the 1950 definition of a Sikhi was introduced to the delight of Nehru, Congress, RSS and other Hindutva forces. The Panth is far weaker today as a consequence of pushing tens of millions out of the Sikh Panth and into the Hindu fold.

This will be going against the very basics of our religion. Do you want us to destroy our foundations?

Mr = How exactly will our foundations be destroyed by Amritdhari Sikhs still adhering to Khalsa Maryada?

Mr = A greater population base for the Sikh Panth, will enable a greater number of new Khalsa to fight for Sarbat da Bhala.

Having said that, we must respect them and try to bring them back into Sikhi, with love and compassion.

Mr = Thank you for saying that brother as Guru Sahib is Jagat Guru and we cannot restrict the message to Majha and Malwa alone.

Not all Nihangs, eat meat. Also, Nihangs are not allowed to eat meat from shops. They follow a specific maryada.

Mr = Agreed. I am not a Nihang. But I consider Nihangs as Sikhs (even though I stopped eating meat on becoming kesdhari)

 

[paapiman]

  21 minutes ago, paapiman said:

 

This will be going against the very basics of our religion. Do you want us to destroy our foundations?

Mr = How exactly will our foundations be destroyed by Amritdhari Sikhs still adhering to Khalsa Maryada?

- Daas meant, if we start calling all bajjar kurehitiye as Sikhs, we would be going against the very basics of our religion.

Mr = A greater population base for the Sikh Panth, will enable a greater number of new Khalsa to fight for Sarbat da Bhala.

- Well, let's focus on quality, rather than quantity. When we will have high quality, quantity will follow.

 

 Like this

 

[paapiman]

Time has changed quality now don't rule over quantity. Forget about political power if you believe in quality

Bro, your point does make little sense, but you might be aware that when Sikhs ruled Punjab, Sikhs were (most likely) less than 15% of the total population of Punjab. The reason was Satguru's kirpa as majority of the Sikhs, during those times, were following the orders of Satguru jee.

Another example - Do you know, that the total population of Jews is less than that of Sikhs? Do you know, how much power they have? 

Therefore, quality is more important that quantity. It is better to have 5 Singhs, compared to 1000 idiots/cowards like me, as 5 lions are more than enough for 1000 sheeps.

Bhul chuk maaf

[mrsingh]

Paapi Ji nobody is advocating that we must advertise bajjar kurehit karan wale as role models of Gurmukh virtue.

All people are politely saying to you is that we must strive to direct fallen Sikhs (patits) or slow adopters (sehajdhari Sikhs) towards greater adherence of Gurmat via greater interaction and compassion as opposed to simply alienation whereby the same are simply rejected and pushed out of the Sikh Panth into the Hindu fold.

Paapi Ji the quality before quantity approach has been tried since 1950 and has spectacularly failed with disastrous consequences. 1984 and the subsequent Genocide of Sikhs would not have happened if the overall Sikh Panth had been 100 million strong back then with a massive demographic power base across all states in India. In fact had we been 100 million strong back in 1984 i firmly believe Indira Gandhi would have been dead within hours of ordering the Genocide in June 1984.

Amritdhari (Khalsa) Sikhs are defined solely upon the basis of quality and thus nobody is advocating that those who drink alcohol, do drugs, visit prostitutes, cut their kes etc can ever be considered Amritdhari Sikhs.

 

[paapiman]

 

Paapi Ji the quality before quantity approach has been tried since 1950 and has spectacularly failed with disastrous consequences. 1984 and the subsequent Genocide of Sikhs would not have happened if the overall Sikh Panth had been 100 million strong back then with a massive demographic power base across all states in India. In fact had we been 100 million strong back in 1984 i firmly believe Indira Gandhi would have been dead within hours of ordering the Genocide in June 1984.

Quality approach did work in the 18th and 19th century. It can still work. Jews are a good example of this. They are so few in numbers, but have great powers.

Bhul chuk maaf

[mrsingh]

Paapi = Bro, your point does make sense, but you might be aware that when Sikhs ruled Punjab, Sikhs were ... less than 15% of the total population of Punjab.

Mr = Paapi Ji you are indeed correct referring to the time of Ranjit Singh's political leadership of the Panth. However, this was when the 90% majority of Punjabi's whom were Muslims and Hindu's did not have the cultural spirit to combat those who believed in Truth (Sikhi). So for example, the Muslim Punjabi's being overwhelmingly descended from Hindu's who were enslaved to Islam by the power of the sword similarly accepted rule by Ranjit Singh which gave them greater rights and dignity than rule by their co-religionists. Likewise, the Hindu Punjabi's of the time had no tradition of keeping shastar and dutifully accepted their rule by Ranjit Singh backed by the Khalsa Fauj in tolerant secular terms.

Paapi = Another example - Do you know, that the total population of Jews is less than that of Sikhs?

Mr = Agreed. But Judaism is an ethnic religion reserved for those born into the faith. Sikhi is the Truth. Guru Sahib is Jagat Guru. And Sikhi is universal for the whole world to benefit from. Thus we should not look up to the Jews in terms of seeking to create an ever sammler population year after year.

Paapi = Do you know, how much power they have?

Mr = It is true they have a degree of financial power exceeding their low population. But let's not kid ourselves. The Sikh Panth does not have the kind of economic clout that Jews. Sikh are 0.33% of the global population worldwide (1 in 300 people are Sikhs if we include all Amritdhari's, Kesdhari's and Sehajdhari's). Economically we hold around 0.1% of all global wealth (about one thousandth of all economic wealth globally). Thus it is pointless to consider the Jews role models in this respect.  

Paapi = Therefore, quality is more important that quantity.

Mr = In the modern paradigm (in the temporal sense) quality cannot always outstrip quantity. Only in the spiritual sense in respect of Amritdhari Sikhs is quality more important than quantity. Quantity would have ensured our victory in 1849, 1947 and 1984.

Paapi = It is better to have 5 Singhs, compared to 1000 idiots/cowards like me, as 5 lions are more than enough for 1000 sheeps.

Mr = This kind of rhetoric sounds good to the ears but the hollow reality of our defeats in 1849, 1947 and 1984 should remind us that 5 lions cannot beat 50 sheep when the 50 sheep are armed with the same ammunition (or more).

[paapiman]

 

Mr = It is true they have a degree of financial power exceeding their low population. But let's not kid ourselves. The Sikh Panth does not have the kind of economic clout that Jews. Sikh are 0.33% of the global population worldwide (1 in 300 people are Sikhs if we include all Amritdhari's, Kesdhari's and Sehajdhari's). Economically we hold around 0.1% of all global wealth (about one thousandth of all economic wealth globally). Thus it is pointless to consider the Jews role models in this respect.  

- If God can give Jews so much power and money, he can also give it to the Sikhs.

Paapi = Therefore, quality is more important that quantity.

Mr = In the modern paradigm (in the temporal sense) quality cannot always outstrip quantity. Only in the spiritual sense in respect of Amritdhari Sikhs is quality more important than quantity. Quantity would have ensured our victory in 1849, 1947 and 1984.

- 1849 - Punjabis made mistakes too

- 1947 - The whole of Punjab was to be given to Pakistan, but Sikhs were able to acquire even those areas, where Muslims were more than them. Furthermore, it was not a war. They were riots.

- 1984 - Are you sure that Sikhs  (as a community) were completely on the right side, before 1984? Are you sure, innocent Hindus were not being harassed/killed in Punjab, before 1984?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 26, 2015 by paapiman

[mrsingh]

Quality approach did work in the 18th and 19th century. It can still work.

Jews are a good example of this. They are so few in numbers, but have great powers.

Brother I have explained above why the circumstances of 1801-1849 were totally different to those of the 21st century.

In respect of the Jews, whilst it is true that the 1.7% of Americans that are Jews (a percentage very similar to the number of Sikhs in India) enable the Jews to wield greater clout than their numbers merit, the reality is that in coming years the Jewish Lobby in America will be less powerful than the Muslim Lobby in America due to projected greater numbers of the latter. You should also be aware that the rate of assimilation of Jews (the obvious consequence for 1% minorities) is that more than half of all young Jews marry non-Jewish spouses (which due to their religion will lead to their demographic oblivion over time).

Furthermore, Israel only relinquished it's hold over Gaza and the West Bank after coming to the conclusions that long term the Muslims would form a majority of the population of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank combined.

So with all due respect your point in respect of the Jews (as a demographic role model for Sikhs) rings hollows.

We should aspire to the level of academic success and contribution towards Sarbat da Bhala globally as a result coming from Jews presently to come from Sikhs in the future.

 

[paapiman]

Brother I have explained above why the circumstances of 1801-1849 were totally different to those of the 21st century.

In respect of the Jews, whilst it is true that the 1.7% of Americans that are Jews (a percentage very similar to the number of Sikhs in India) enable the Jews to wield greater clout than their numbers merit, the reality is that in coming years the Jewish Lobby in America will be less powerful than the Muslim Lobby in America due to projected greater numbers of the latter. You should also be aware that the rate of assimilation of Jews (the obvious consequence for 1% minorities) is that more than half of all young Jews marry non-Jewish spouses (which due to their religion will lead to their demographic oblivion over time).

Furthermore, Israel only relinquished it's hold over Gaza and the West Bank after coming to the conclusions that long term the Muslims would form a majority of the population of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank combined.

So with all due respect your point in respect of the Jews (as a demographic role model for Sikhs) rings hollows.

We should aspire to the level of academic success and contribution towards Sarbat da Bhala globally as a result coming from Jews presently to come from Sikhs in the future.

 

Let's see what happens in the future.

Even if, one includes patits/niguray in Sikh population, still our population is no where close to that of Muslims/Christians. 

If there is another world war, it will be a nuclear one. There will massive destruction. 

At the end Khalsa will rule .............Raj Karega Khalsa.............even if there are only 100 Sikhs left. We should leave the method to Satguru jee, rather than thinking excessively, about increasing our numbers.

No force can destroy Khalsa.

Bhul chuk maaf

[mrsingh]

Mr = It is true that Jews have a degree of financial power exceeding their low population. But let's not kid ourselves. The Sikh Panth does not have the kind of economic clout that Jews do. Sikh are 0.33% of the global population worldwide (1 in 300 people globally are Sikhs if we include all Amritdhari's, Kesdhari's and Sehajdhari's). Economically we hold around 0.1% of all global wealth (about one thousandth of all economic wealth globally). Thus it is pointless to consider the Jews role models in this respect.  

Paapi - If God can give Jews so much power and money, he can also give it to the Sikhs.

Mr = Please enlighten me why God gives more power and wealth to racist white and Arab slavemasters as opposed to innocent Sikhs or innocent Africans?

Paapi = Therefore, quality is more important that quantity.

Mr = In the modern paradigm (in the temporal sense) quality cannot always outstrip quantity. Only in the spiritual sense in respect of Amritdhari Sikhs is quality more important than quantity. Quantity would have ensured our victory in 1849, 1947 and 1984.

Paapi- 1849 - Sikhs made mistakes too

Mr= Agreed. But if the Khalsa Fauj had been ten times bigger as a result of all Punjabi's being Sikh then those mistakes would not have mattered as our faith in Guru Sahib and raw numbers would have handed defeat to the East India Company

Paapi - 1947 - The whole of Punjab was to be given to Pakistan

Mr = This precisely illustarates my point. In Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs in 1947, 20% of Sikhs were killed off. Imagine if 5million Sikhs were killed in India tomorrow. That is the extent of the Genocide the Sikhs faced in 1947. Whereever our numbers were 10% or less of the population Sikhs were brutally wiped so the old adage of Sava Lakh was pointless. We barely survived the planned annexation of Majha, Malwa and Doaba into Pakistan because our numbers broadly matched Muslim numbers in these three area's. We knew that if these area's fell to Pakistan it would mean the inevitable murder of millions of Sikhs. Where our opponents have similar numbers and similar ammunition to ourselves the Sikh Panth will never lose and never be defeated

Paapi = Furthermore, it was not a war. They were riots.

Mr = If you don't consider the Genocide of 20% of Sikhs by Pakistan as a War against us that's your opinion. 

Paapi - 1984 - Are you sure that Sikhs  (as a community) were completely on the right side, before 1984?

Mr = Yes I fully support the objectives of the Anandpur Sahib Resolution and the concept of Justice for Sikhs advocated through the Dharam Yuddh Morcha 

 

Paapi = Are you sure, innocent Hindus were not being harassed/killed in Punjab, before 1984?

Mr = Paapiman this is a myth that non-Sikhs like yourself like to throw at Sikhs. If Indira Gandhi was killing a handful of innocent Hindu's prior to June 1984 in order to besmirch the good name of the Khalsa Panth then what does that have to do with Sikhs? Sikhi condemns terrorism against the innocent in the strongest terms. You should also know that whilst Indira Gandhi killed a handful of innocent Hindu's to besmirch the good name of the Sikh Panth she killed thousands of innocent Sikhs prior to June 1984.

 

[paapiman]

  27 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Mr = It is true that Jews have a degree of financial power exceeding their low population. But let's not kid ourselves. The Sikh Panth does not have the kind of economic clout that Jews do. Sikh are 0.33% of the global population worldwide (1 in 300 people globally are Sikhs if we include all Amritdhari's, Kesdhari's and Sehajdhari's). Economically we hold around 0.1% of all global wealth (about one thousandth of all economic wealth globally). Thus it is pointless to consider the Jews role models in this respect.  

Paapi - If God can give Jews so much power and money, he can also give it to the Sikhs.

Mr = Please enlighten me why God gives more power and wealth to racist white and Arab slavemasters as opposed to innocent Sikhs or innocent Africans?

- This is going off-topic. We can discuss this in a separate topic.

Paapi = Therefore, quality is more important that quantity.

Mr = In the modern paradigm (in the temporal sense) quality cannot always outstrip quantity. Only in the spiritual sense in respect of Amritdhari Sikhs is quality more important than quantity. Quantity would have ensured our victory in 1849, 1947 and 1984.

- It is not about the numbers only, it is more about power. Even, if we were 20%-30% of India's population, still we could have been targeted, if all the power was in the hands of evil people like Indira Gandhi and her followers.

Paapi- 1849 - Sikhs made mistakes too

Mr= Agreed. But if the Khalsa Fauj had been ten times bigger as a result of all Punjabi's being Sikh then those mistakes would not have mattered as our faith in Guru Sahib and raw numbers would have handed defeat to the East India Company

- Maybe you are right, but not in today's world, where technology is predominant in warfare.

Paapi = Furthermore, it was not a war. They were riots.

Mr = If you don't consider the Genocide of 20% of Sikhs by Pakistan as a War against us that's your opinion. 

- Thousands of innocent Muslims were also killed in East Punjab too. They can term it, as a genocide of Muslims too. Genocide or riots, innocent people suffered a lot.

 

  27 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Paapi = Are you sure, innocent Hindus were not being harassed/killed in Punjab, before 1984?

Mr = Paapiman this is a myth that non-Sikhs like yourself like to throw at Sikhs. If Indira Gandhi was killing a handful of innocent Hindu's prior to June 1984 in order to besmirch the good name of the Khalsa Panth then what does that have to do with Sikhs? Sikhi condemns terrorism against the innocent in the strongest terms. You should also know that whilst Indira Gandhi killed a handful of innocent Hindu's to besmirch the good name of the Sikh Panth she killed thousands of innocent Sikhs prior to June 1984.

- We can discuss this in a separate topic. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 Like this

 

•  

Edited July 26, 2015 by paapiman

[mrsingh]

Paapi - It is not about the numbers only, it is more about power. Even, if we were 20%-30% of India's population, still we could have been targeted, if all the power was in the hands of evil people like Indira Gandhi and her followers.

 

Mr = Agreed. Power is of course critical to the equation. Of course the smaller a minority the less it’s power and the weaker it’s democratic voice. Sikhs should work towards Khalsa Raj (rule by the way of justice) snatching power away from the corrupt.

Mr = We will only progress towards with greater numbers of Sikhs.

 

Paapi- 1849 - Sikhs made mistakes too

 

Mr= Agreed. But if the Khalsa Fauj had been ten times bigger as a result of all Punjabi's being Sikh then those mistakes would not have mattered as our faith in Guru Sahib and raw numbers would have handed defeat to the East India Company

 

Paapi - Maybe you are right, but not in today's world, where technology is predominant in warfare.

 

Mr = Agreed, ammunition supplies and technology cannot be discounted. But what I am asserting is that equal numbers and equal access to ammunition and technology I would back the Khalsa Fauj to defeat any adversaries.

 

Paapi = Furthermore, it was not a war. They were riots.

 

Mr = If you don't consider the Genocide of 20% of Sikhs by Pakistan as a War against us that's your opinion.

 

Paapi - Thousands of innocent Muslims were also killed in East Punjab too.

Mr = 0.3% percent of the Muslim population of India and Pakistan died in 1947.

Mr = 20% of the Sikh population was killed in the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs in 1947.

Mr = It’s quite clear to me which Qaum suffered the most in 1947 though I agree that innocents of all faiths suffered.

 

Edited July 26, 2015 by mrsingh

[paapiman]

Paapi - It is not about the numbers only, it is more about power. Even, if we were 20%-30% of India's population, still we could have been targeted, if all the power was in the hands of evil people like Indira Gandhi and her followers.

 

Mr = Agreed. Power is of course critical to the equation. Of course the smaller a minority the less it’s power and the weaker it’s democratic voice. Sikhs should work towards Khalsa Raj (rule by the way of justice) snatching power away from the corrupt.

Mr = We will only progress towards with greater numbers of Sikhs.

 

Paapi- 1849 - Sikhs made mistakes too

 

Mr= Agreed. But if the Khalsa Fauj had been ten times bigger as a result of all Punjabi's being Sikh then those mistakes would not have mattered as our faith in Guru Sahib and raw numbers would have handed defeat to the East India Company

 

Paapi - Maybe you are right, but not in today's world, where technology is predominant in warfare.

 

Mr = Agreed, ammunition supplies and technology cannot be discounted. But what I am asserting is that equal numbers and equal access to ammunition and technology I would back the Khalsa Fauj to defeat any adversaries.

From a worldly perspective:

So what is your plan? Sikhs don't even have a single country in the world. Sikhs are a tiny minority in India, which is one of the biggest nuclear super powers in the world. Sikh population, including all niguray, is no where close to that of Muslims and Christians.

So what is your suggestion, regarding increasing the numbers? Even if the population is increased, minimal power (as a community), will not be sufficient to do anything substantial in the world.

Most likely, Sikhs will not be able to reach, even 25% of the Muslim population, even if people like you try your best.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

Edited July 26, 2015 by paapiman