Important Point on Sikh Rehat Maryada (SRM) and Panj Pyare

[Harjots8963]

Even more proof that we need unity of Sampardayes and get a completely accepted Maryada.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JeOO5J55QU

1 Hour and 36 Minutes 40 Seconds to 1 Hour
To
1 Hour and 52 Minutes
 

[Guest]

Can you summarize what they are saying..? I am sorry i am at work. Don't have access to audio headphones.

[Harjots8963]

I hesitate to Summarize, my punjabi to english translations aren't the best Lol.

Basically, when the SRM was complied and the ardas was to be done, there was a 3 day debate on it and after that no final decision on it was made on its acceptance.
In my understanding...
There are also more points made on that....

Just check out the video when you have time :)

[amardeep]

The Sikh Rahit Maryada is basically a compromise to bring the panth together. It was made in a such a way that all segments of the panth would stay within in.

 

[Harjots8963]

The Sikh Rahit Maryada is basically a compromise to bring the panth together. It was made in a such a way that all segments of the panth would stay within in.

 

Right... That point was made in the video...

But it was also stated that all the maryada are not THAT different... so together a complete Maryada can be easily made.

[Guest]

I wonder how they are going to fit nihang puratan maryada of jhatka and sukha in new maryada in akaal takth.?

[jaikaara]

I wonder how they are going to fit nihang puratan maryada of jhatka and sukha in new maryada in akaal takth.?

Bhaa ji both difficult ..sometimes i feel its better we keep them separate in boongas which can be constructed nearby..the way the Panth fights over it ..its not worth..the biggest complex i feel is people feel these are animist beliefs .

[CdnSikhGirl]

How much you want to bet that with likes of him, Sant Samaj etc if they try to rewrite it, I can see it now, women will be declared as impure and barred from any seva of SGGSJ.  (because you know, women can menstruate at any time - that's what he auggested).  And guaranteed they will push for women to be removed from Panj Pyaras.  Singhnis may as well go back to being Hindu women, because they will be treated like them.  Relegated to the kitchen serving the men only and kept from any seva that involves any sort of authority in Sikhi. It would be a sad state of affairs...

[jaikaara]

Satkirin ji you better start a new AKJ ..ALL.KAURS.JATHA...:) just kidding ..respect your equality approach but always understand that the time was different ..equality to this state nobody had dreamt of .

 

I am not opposed entirely to your arguments but i feel you would fit better with the 3HO ..they are more evolving .Every coin has another side but thats how the world is .

[CdnSikhGirl]

3HO centres their whole life around kundalini tantric sex yoga. They distort gurbani, and Yogi Bhajan was a crook who invented himself as a fake leader "mahan tantric" called himself "siri singh sahib" and said Akal Takht gave him the honor.  They do not use the proper Sikh greeting of Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh they instead use 'Sat Nam'.  They teach that Sikhism is yoga, they dance and throw their kesh around to gurbani being sung to folk music (I'm not against the using of guitars etc but thrashing your uncovered kesh around is bad), they give out grapes etc as karah prashad...its only supposed to be prepared one way... In fact, I get frustrated when people think I came to Sikhi through 3HO.  They are not Sikhs. They are yogis, doing hindu idol worship and claiming to be Sikhs so they can monopolize off the Sikh image.  They have Siri Chand idols and Hindu God idols around their 'ashram' (they dont even call it a gurdwara) in New Mexico.  They do meditation on Yogi Bhajan's photo!!!!!!! (so instead of simran on the one timeless eternal creator, they are basically doing simran to Yogi Bhajan). 
Please note, I am not against doing proper yoga, but kundalini yoga was invented by YB by stealing moves from other forms of yoga and adding calesthenics to it and calling it kundalini yoga.  I'm not against Sikhs doing yoga for fitness... outside the gurdwara.  But doing it in the diwan hall, with their backs to SGGSJ is HUGE beadbi!

AKJ however (as in Akhand Kirtani Jatha) I believe aside from the issue with ragmala is closest to how the Gurus wanted us to be.  Equality between all humans... No position in AKJ is reserved for men only, including Panj Pyaras.  Btw not ALL AKJ are against Ragmala... I agree with their position that both women and men should tie dastars to cover their kesh.  I don't personally agree with their reason that keski is the kakkar... however their reasoning does make sense.  That the other 4 kakkars are external gifts given by the guru where kesh is already established as one of the four bujjar kurehits, so why mention again as one of the 5 k's? They say the word was split from keski to kes ki in translation.  Whether or not their reasoning is true, I believe both should tie turbans for other reasons... Guru Ji's 52 Hukams for one instructs ALL Sikhs to tie one at all times.  Other reason is that in Gurbani it says let your total awareness be the turban on your head.  It didnt say to men only.  Also, its mentioned that anyone eating without their head covered is great sin. Majority of women do not carry a chunni everywhere, and even if they did, a chunni is near impossible to keep on your head especially if you are moving around.  So it's impractical except for in the Gurdwara where you are sitting still and even then it falls off many times needing to be replaced during the diwan... don't believe me just watch the women next time you are at the gurdwara... how many times they have to fix their chunni!  That's why I think turban should be worn by both.  Also, when Guru Ji told the Khalsa to maintain it's distinct identity... how can a Sikh woman do that without a turban when she would be indistinguishable from a Hindu woman!  (oh thats right some on here think women were never meant to be Khalsa anyway...)  I know there are many AKJ haters on here.  That's fine I don't really care. I dislike DDT / Sant Samaj as they do not embody what the Gurus taught about equality.  To each their own. 

This is why SRM is the closest we will EVER get to full panthic RM.  Because if DDT, Sant Samaj try to muscle in their idea of RM, then AKJ will be alienated.  If AKJ's practice is pushed, then the former will be alienated.  SRM was done in such a way that EVERY jatha, sect etc were included.  Just because it says 3 banis in the am doesn't mean you can't do 5. It's saying the minimum.  Regarding Ragmala it says that its up to you if you want to include it in Akhand Paaths etc. but that at the minimum it has to be INCLUDED in the SGGSJ (whether or not it is read).  As for equality... what s in SRM in every way, agrees with Gurbani.  The reason it won out when SRM was created, even with majority males contributing... was that SGGSJ is the FINAL and highest authority. So historical rhetnamas written by MEN were considered, but also understood to be subject to culture influcence.  If there was a question on something they went to SGGSJ and what was found in SGGSJ was that males do not have any authority over females, nor do they have any privilege over females for simply being male. Historical Rhetnamas are written by humans and are not infallible.  Gurbani surpasses all that.  Any new attempt at a Rehet Maryada REQUIRES these basics to be included in the panel deciding on it:

1) EQUAL amount of males and females. 50 % each
2) EQUAL amount representation of all the Jathas, and with a corresponding representation from Sikhs who do not associate to any specific jatha (which make up more than 50% of the Sikh population btw... so having representation from nearly all DDT/Nihgang/Sant samaj etc can NOT possibly speak for the whole panth)
3) FINAL authority and deciding factor on any issues that arise questions, should be given to SGGSJ ONLY... Gurbani ONLY.  Next in line would be Guru Gobind Singh Jis 52 Hukams. Not historical rhetnamas which were written by men, and subject to cultural influence. Gurbani IS GURU and deserves FINAL say! 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[jaikaara]

wow ! you got a lot against them it looks like!!! .All said and done Satkirin the fact is someday you will realize it is this group which will listen to your rantings..i am not forcing you to accept ..i have no right. Nor do i wish you join them but there is a large number of non indian sikhs who understand the mindset better perhaps .

I dont judge the 3HO ..i understand they belive in Sikhi from another perspective ..end of the day they are a happier lot except for a few who had direct contact with Yogi bhajan and then went ahead to file cases.. Waheguru knows what the truth is ..what i feel is  .this war of genders inside you, going forward will create walls around you and you might want to close yourself away from all the people you been dealing with.

There was this lady and perhaps  still is on the forum ..Harjas Kaur..a similar case of amrit shak from the AKJ and she too had her own issues which then gradually made her enemy of her local unit ..after that she turned to the Mata Amritnand mayi and then to ISKON i believe  ..

A similar case was of a boy called Star Darcy on SikhPhilosophyNetwork and after being in Sikhi for 3 years had issues with language and Punjabism and ultimately embraced Bahai faith.

 

I forgot to add , Harjas is of mixed race origin a Roma gypsy i believe and Star Darcy has European roots i believe .

[CdnSikhGirl]

I don't have any issues with AKJ at all.  I think they are following closest to what our Gurus wanted.  They certainly didn't want Sikh women to be men's servents tied to a kitchen all day and kept from religious duties.  How do we know? Gurbani for one... and also of all the Sikhs Guru Ji sent out to spread Sikhi, included were 40 women. That is most definitely a leadership position. Our Guru armed women expecting us to also fight against injustice. But many of these groups, sants and babas like Hari Singh Rhandawa are letting Punjabi culture creep in and force women back into the role of only a meek housewife. They twist Gurbani through one liners in a self serving effort to make women look impure and dirty, and hence unworthy of any seva of SGGSJ lest they desecrate it. They do not want to entertain the idea that women can also lead, and are capable to be scholars and deserve an equal place beside Sikh men, so they cook up these ideas to 'put women in their place' so that they can maintain their high place of authority over women.  What I find the most disturbing about that video: The discussion was about women being impure, and their right to do seva. Yet the entire panel was all male.  What gives MEN the right to decide anything concerning women??? Especially without any women present to give their point of view!!!!

In the video, he goes on to suggest that since a woman can start menstruating at any time, that women should be kept from seva ALL THE TIME (not even just during their period) because they might accidentally start their period while doing seva. What a crock!  And overt discrimination based on a biological function that was created BY GOD!  Does he realize that the light of our Creator is equally within ALL HUMANS? Gurbani makes this very clear! So how can he claim that a woman is impure and is unworthy to do seva of SGGSJ when she contains the divine light equally as him? That's the same as calling Waheguru impure!  Gurbani tells us the ONLY thing which makes us impure is our ego, and that can't be washed away with water:

ਮਨਮੁਖ ਮੈਲੇ ਮਲੁ ਭਰੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ॥
Manmukẖ maile mal bẖare ha▫umai ṯarisnā vikār.
The self-willed manmukhs are polluted. They are filled with the pollution of egotism, wickedness and desire. 
ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
Bin sabḏai mail na uṯrai mar jamėh ho▫e kẖu▫ār.
Without the Shabad, this pollution is not washed off; through the cycle of death and rebirth, they waste away in misery. 
ਧਾਤੁਰ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਲਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਨਾ ਉਰਵਾਰੁ ਨ ਪਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
Ḏẖāṯur bājī palacẖ rahe nā urvār na pār. ||3|| Engrossed in this transitory drama, they are not at home in either this world or the next. ||3|| 

I had to laugh at the comments on the video itself because they are suggesting urine, semen, blood are all pollution.  Did you know that when you look at things from God's perspective that there is no blood, no urine, no semen... etc at all? And its not just metaphor but an actual fact!? Every single atom is broken down into electrons and protons/neutrons. Neutrons and protons further break down to quarks. Every single quark is identical, and every single electron is identical.  Look at reality from this level and there is no male, no female, no blood, no urine, no clothing, no YOU and even no physical SGGSJ  (this is why it's not the physical pages we are revering, but instead it's the timeless TRUTH within it that we revere, else it beocme idol worship). See things from this level, and everything looks identical. There is no such thing as impurity or filth except that which Gurbani tells us... filth of the mind/Ego.

ਜਗਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਗੀ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
Jag ha▫umai mail ḏukẖ pā▫i▫ā mal lāgī ḏūjai bẖā▫e.
The world is polluted with the filth of egotism, suffering in pain. This filth sticks to them because of their love of duality. 
ਮਲੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਧੋਤੀ ਕਿਵੈ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਜੇ ਸਉ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ॥
Mal ha▫umai ḏẖoṯī kivai na uṯrai je sa▫o ṯirath nā▫e.
This filth of egotism cannot be washed away, even by taking cleansing baths at hundreds of sacred shrines. 

Those who can not (or refuse to) see everything in this sense of ONEness and equality (like Paapiman), are suffering in duality. They refuse to give up their statuses, their privilege over others. These Sants and Babas who pit humans against humans in useless heirarchies and statuses are missing the TRUTH that the Gurus taught and are actually perpetuating their own prison in duality. And the filth and impurity of it can not be washed off. By merely washing their bodies, they are cleaning nothing...

ਜਿਉ ਜੋਰੂ ਸਿਰਨਾਵਣੀ ਆਵੈ ਵਾਰੋ ਵਾਰ ॥
Ji▫o jorū sirnāvaṇī āvai vāro vār.
As a woman has her periods, month after month, 
ਜੂਠੇ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
Jūṯẖe jūṯẖā mukẖ vasai niṯ niṯ ho▫e kẖu▫ār.
so does falsehood dwell in the mouth of the false; they suffer forever, again and again. 
ਸੂਚੇ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਜਿ ਪਿੰਡਾ ਧੋਇ ॥
Sūcẖe ehi na ākẖī▫ahi bahan jė pindā ḏẖo▫e.
They are not called pure, who sit down after merely washing their bodies. 
ਸੂਚੇ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
Sūcẖe se▫ī nānkā jin man vasi▫ā so▫e. ||2||
Only they are pure, O Nanak, within whose minds the Lord abides. ||2|| 

Gurbani makes it very clear that the physical is not what matters. It is the mind and ego which must be conquered and duality must be renounced. Its not about this phsyical life.  Sants and Babas like him, are only spreading hatred and duality. And by the way, he equates blood as being impure same as urine and semen... its a given that as men age their prostrate enlarges and majority of men dribble urine which using his logic would also contaminate their whole clothing. At least women use hygiene protection while on their periods, while I am pretty sure vast majority of older men have dribbled and not had any hygiene product to catch it. And since it can happen at ANY TIME maybe all men over 50 should also be kept from all seva of SGGSJ at all times??? And this can even happen to younger men too! So maybe we just not have anyone at all doing seva of SGGSJ??? At the very least I am VERY sure that Hari Singh Randahawa being an older gentlemen has experienced this side effect of growing older himself.  But I am darn sure he wont ever restrict himself from doing seva because it might happen at any time! 


 

[mrsingh]

The simple definition of an ordinary lay (sehajdhari) Sikh is one who bows down before Guru Sahib.

An Amritdhari GurSikh should rightly be stated as one who keeps kes and shastar for the protection of the weak.

But the more extensively we define, the more we will end up excluding.

For example if a person of African ancestry keeps kes in the form of dreadlocks but wishes to become Amritdhari we should welcome that without ritualising the insistence upon kangha for all circumstances. I think all jathebandi's and samparda's are unanimous about kes and shastar for protection of the weak (given that kirpan is any weapon with which we can do kirpa upon others via their protection - as opposed to ceremonial ritualistic one inch kirpans hung around the neck like jewellery). Kara is purely for combat purposes as not for nothing did Guru Sahib discard the janeu.

Jhatka or use of sukha need not come into definition of an Amritdhari Sikh though I think all of us (except for a few nangs who eulogise Santa for supporting Indira Gandhi) understand that recreational drugs for getting high go stridently against what Gurbani states.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2015 by mrsingh

[Guest]

3HO centres their whole life around kundalini tantric sex yoga. They distort gurbani, and Yogi Bhajan was a crook who invented himself as a fake leader "mahan tantric" called himself "siri singh sahib" and said Akal Takht gave him the honor.  They do not use the proper Sikh greeting of Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh they instead use 'Sat Nam'.  They teach that Sikhism is yoga, they dance and throw their kesh around to gurbani being sung to folk music (I'm not against the using of guitars etc but thrashing your uncovered kesh around is bad), they give out grapes etc as karah prashad...its only supposed to be prepared one way... In fact, I get frustrated when people think I came to Sikhi through 3HO.  They are not Sikhs. They are yogis, doing hindu idol worship and claiming to be Sikhs so they can monopolize off the Sikh image.  They have Siri Chand idols and Hindu God idols around their 'ashram' (they dont even call it a gurdwara) in New Mexico.  They do meditation on Yogi Bhajan's photo!!!!!!! (so instead of simran on the one timeless eternal creator, they are basically doing simran to Yogi Bhajan). 
Please note, I am not against doing proper yoga, but kundalini yoga was invented by YB by stealing moves from other forms of yoga and adding calesthenics to it and calling it kundalini yoga.  I'm not against Sikhs doing yoga for fitness... outside the gurdwara.  But doing it in the diwan hall, with their backs to SGGSJ is HUGE beadbi!

You are grossly misinformed. I am assuming you been victim of propaganda from gursant singh. What a petty points to make a issue.

1. Whilst they do have white tantric session / camp every year, white tantric hocus pocus stuff is not a integral part of their 3HO. In order to proof white tantric yoga is integral part of 3ho, they have to do it in daily lives which they don't, let me refresh your memory- they get up amrit vela at 3 am, do japji sahib and do kundalini yoga, and many also in kirtan jatha, so they do kirtan bhagti which is very much part parcel of sikh dharam.

2. Kundalini yoga/even hatha yoga incorporated with sikh mantra is done by udasis and nirmale- sikh order in the panth prior to 3ho, there is evidence kundalini yoga is done traditionally so its not a new thing. In fact, many nirmale and udasi intially use hatha yoga/kundalini techniques to do sukhmani sahib other gurbanis for example- do one asthpadi in one breath to enhance concentration as traditionally breath follows consciousness, consciousness follow breath wherever the breath is that's where our concentration/chit would be. One can actually try this practically even now just hold your breath for 20 secs you will see your consciousness locked in cannot wonder anyway. There is nothing hindu about it, many buddhist monks used kundalini techniques as pointers to transcend. It's science of human body subtle energies, energy points, consciouness, mind, soul

3. What yogi bhajan is and wasn't its open to interpertation by all. I trying avoid talking about personalities. He was given sri singh sahib title by sri akaal takh jathedar and same intuition which is bestowed title of bhai sahib to bhai sahib randhir singh.

4. You making it sound greeting satnaam is anti sikh or something, let me make it clear Vahiguru ji ka khalsa Vahiguru ji kifateh is not replaced by satnaam, these are two separate greetings they consider it two separate greeting, 3h0 never replaced it. In fact i hear them using both. Satnaam is part of mool mantra, and great shabad on its own- Sat-true pure existence, naam - name.

5. Whilst i agree yoga is been commercialized traditionally yoga term is pure union, real meaning of yoga is yoga chit birthi nirodha as per sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale uphold traditional meaning which means any technique which helps bring consciouness one pointed.

Anyway, here is the real true essence meaning of yoga in three words:

Yoga Chit Vrithi Nirodha - Yoga Sutra -Patanjali- patanjali is consider gurmukh as per bhai gurdas ji.

yogaḥ = (nom. sg. m. from yoga) yoga

citta = (iic.) all that is mutable in human beings; thoughts

vṛtti = (iic.) thought-wave; mental modification; mental whirlpool; a ripple in the chitta. A vritti alters perception like a misconception, or as waves on the surface of a pond obscure or distort our view of the bottom. 

nirodhaḥ = (nom. sg. m. from nirodha) to find tranquility; to control/Ceasation of chita vrithi(thoughts/mental thought waves) leaving one in yoga- absolute union 

6. There is no evidence of 3ho sikhs opening up their kesh infront of sri guru granth sahib ji, if there is then please show it. I be first one to condemn it. Thats indeed bad. I am not questioning this incidence but i like to point i wouldn't believe what gursant singh has to say as in the past there are instances he twisted many things even to this day.

7. You obviously haven't been around old traditional sikh school of thoughts, they all do. In fact many sikh saints do- fruits is as natural satogun food nature has to offer, sant jagjit singh harkhowale, rara sahib, nanaksar they all give fruits when karah parsad is not available.

So this is most nonsensical petty argument. What a lame arugment.

8. Yes i have seen them around hindu idols outside some are in interfaith and other around retreats either way its wrong.

9. Simran to yogi bhajan, what a non sense allegations, none of them are simran to him rather than creating space within for meditation. Paying respect to him as saint just like other sikhs pay respects to sikh saints. Yes there is evidence of robotic kundalini sessions to get certifications and thats wrong. .

10. Yogi bhajan teacher was udasi sikh saint from sikh order- sant hazara singh. Whilst he did changed terminology of terms, readjusted yoga to suite western needs but essence of yoga is not changed. 

 

 

[paapiman]

Please note, I am not against doing proper yoga, but kundalini yoga was invented by YB by stealing moves from other forms of yoga and adding calesthenics to it and calling it kundalini yoga.  I'm not against Sikhs doing yoga for fitness... outside the gurdwara.  But doing it in the diwan hall, with their backs to SGGSJ is HUGE beadbi!

 

Provide evidence that Srimaan Yogi Bhajan jee stole moves. Do you know how many people he inspired, to become Sikhs?

Bhul chul maaf

[jaikaara]

You are grossly misinformed. I am assuming you been victim of propaganda from gursant singh. What a petty points to make a issue.

1. Whilst they do have white tantric session / camp every year, white tantric hocus pocus stuff is not a integral part of their 3HO. In order to proof white tantric yoga is integral part of 3ho, they have to do it in daily lives which they don't, let me refresh your memory- they get up amrit vela at 3 am, do japji sahib and do kundalini yoga, and many also in kirtan jatha, so they do kirtan bhagti which is very much part parcel of sikh dharam.

2. Kundalini yoga/even hatha yoga incorporated with sikh mantra is done by udasis and nirmale- sikh order in the panth prior to 3ho, there is evidence kundalini yoga is done traditionally so its not a new thing. In fact, many nirmale and udasi intially use hatha yoga/kundalini techniques to do sukhmani sahib other gurbanis for example- do one asthpadi in one breath to enhance concentration as traditionally breath follows consciousness, consciousness follow breath wherever the breath is that's where our concentration/chit would be One can actually try this pratically even now just hold your breath for 20 secs you will see your consciousness locked in cannot wonder anyway. There is nothing hindu about it, many buddhist monks used kundalini techniques as pointers to transcend. It's science of human body subtle energies, energy points, consciouness, mind, soul

3. What yogi bhajan is and wasn't its open to interpertation by all. I trying avoid talking about personalities. He was given sri singh sahib title by sri akaal takh jathedar and same intuition which is bestowed title of bhai sahib to bhai sahib randhir singh.

4. You making it sound greeting satnaam is anti sikh or something, let me make it clear Vahiguru ji ka khalsa Vahiguru ji kifateh is not replaced by satnaam, these are two separate greetings they consider it two separate greeting, 3h0 never replaced it. In fact i hear them using both. Satnaam is part of mool mantra, and great shabad on its own- Sat-true pure existence, naam - name.

5. Whilst i agree yoga is been commercialized traditionally yoga term is pure union, real meaning of yoga is yoga chit birthi nirodha as per sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale uphold traditional meaning which means any technique which helps bring consciouness one pointed.

Anyway, here is the real true essence meaning of yoga in three words:

Yoga Chit Vrithi Nirodha - Yoga Sutra -Patanjali- patanjali is consider gurmukh as per bhai gurdas ji.

yogaḥ = (nom. sg. m. from yoga) yoga

citta = (iic.) all that is mutable in human beings; thoughts

vṛtti = (iic.) thought-wave; mental modification; mental whirlpool; a ripple in the chitta. A vritti alters perception like a misconception, or as waves on the surface of a pond obscure or distort our view of the bottom. 

nirodhaḥ = (nom. sg. m. from nirodha) to find tranquility; to control/Ceasation of chita vrithi(thoughts/mental thought waves) leaving one in yoga- absolute union 

6. There is no evidence of 3ho sikhs opening up their kesh infront of sri guru granth sahib ji, if there is then please show it. I be first one to condemn it. Thats indeed bad. I am not questioning this incidence but i like to point i wouldn't believe what gursant singh has to say as in the past there are instances he twisted many things even to this day.

7. You obviously haven't been around old traditional sikh school of thoughts, they all do. In fact many sikh saints do- fruits is as natural satogun food nature has to offer, sant jagjit singh harkhowale, rara sahib, nanaksar they all give fruits when karah parsad is not available.

So this is most nonsensical petty argument. What a lame arugment.

8. Yes i have seen them around hindu idols outside some are in interfaith and other around retreats either way its wrong.

9. Simran to yogi bhajan, what a non sense allegations, none of them are simran to him rather than creating space within for meditation. Paying respect to him as saint just like other sikhs pay respects to sikh saints. Yes there is evidence of robotic kundalini sessions to get certifications and thats wrong. .

10. Yogi bhajan teacher was udasi sikh saint from sikh order- sant hazara singh. Whilst he did changed terminology of terms, readjusted yoga to suite western needs but essence of yoga is not changed. 

 

 

Well said bhaa ji ..!

Satkirin...the Mool mantar is complete from Ek Oankaar to Nanak Hosi bhi sach...many of us do jaap of say Ek Oankaar or even Aad Sach Jugaad Sach...so does that make us lesser ?

[ibrute]

I wonder how much abhiyaas is actually going on, by the forum members, they do seem to have huge knowledge of facts on sikhi. ;)

[Guest]

3ho also do Sri Charitropakhiyan Puja like Damdami Taksal and Buddha Dal. Without doing the that then people are just nastiks and bemukhs

 

[paapiman]

3ho also do Sri Charitropakhiyan Puja like Damdami Taksal and Buddha Dal. Without doing the that then people are just nastiks and bemukhs

 

What do you mean? 

It is surprising that all the sects of Khalsa panth, like DDT, nirmalay, nanaksar, rara sahib, nihangs, udhasis, etc, have not come together and formed a SRM. SGPC has control of majority of Gurudwaras in Punjab and the so-called SRM has been enforced there.

The closest document to a SRM is the DDT rehat maryada. I guess, we can keep following that, until the panth comes up with a maryada. Maharaja Ranjit Singh jee's time was probably the best time, when a SRM could have been formulated.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

 

AKJ however (as in Akhand Kirtani Jatha) I believe aside from the issue with ragmala is closest to how the Gurus wanted us to be.  
 

Some AKJ and some missionaries are the real culprits behind the controversies surrounding, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee. These people have caused so much confusion in the panth.

Bhul chuk maaf

I had to laugh at the comments on the video itself because they are suggesting urine, semen, blood are all pollution.  Did you know that when you look at things from God's perspective that there is no blood, no urine, no semen... etc at all? And its not just metaphor but an actual fact!? 
 

Again, the above applies to Brahamgyanis, not to normal humans. We have to respect Satguru jee, by maintaining maximum hygiene while doing seva.

Bhul chuk maaf

In the video, he goes on to suggest that since a woman can start menstruating at any time, that women should be kept from seva ALL THE TIME (not even just during their period) because they might accidentally start their period while doing seva. What a crock!  And overt discrimination based on a biological function that was created BY GOD!  Does he realize that the light of our Creator is equally within ALL HUMANS? Gurbani makes this very clear! So how can he claim that a woman is impure and is unworthy to do seva of SGGSJ when she contains the divine light equally as him? That's the same as calling Waheguru impure!  

Even urination and excretion are biological functions created by God. Do you want people (men or women) to sit with diapers and do seva of Satguru jee?

This is just common sense.

Bhul chuk maaf

What gives MEN the right to decide anything concerning women??? Especially without any women present to give their point of view!!!!

Well, God also came in 10 Male forms and decided issues, concerning women.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 18, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

So historical rhetnamas written by MEN were considered, but also understood to be subject to culture influcence. 
 

You keep mentioning cultural influences. Can you please list those cultural influences?

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

DDT (or other small sects) can NOT speak for the entire panth Paapiman.  Majority of Sikhs do not believe in their sexist ideology.  Majority of Sikhs do not follow any jatha or taksal etc. and follow Sikh Rehet Maryada already.  They will never go to being forced to do sexist practices.  (just look at the uproar that happened with Hari Singh Randhawa over his sexist statements about women and suggesting they cant do seva at all ever... because they might accidentally have their period at any time. He was HUGELY ostracized across the entire planet - not just in BC where it happened.)
If there is ever another panthic decision on an RM it cant be made by only so called orthodox sects.  Or else majority of the panth will be left out, and will never agree to follow it.  

ANY NEW RM BEING CONSIDERED TO BE FAIR THE PANEL WILL NEED TO BE COMPRISED OF:

50% males / 50% females to have equal say
EQUAL representation of ALL the different groups
In proportion to the actual Sikh panth. 
(Meaning DDT can't have 50% of the panel be DDT because DDT do not comprise 50% of the panth.)  
So majority of the panel would be Sikhs without any association to any specific Jatha at all
And yes AKJ would even have to have equal representation just as DDT.  And the Missionaries! 
And FINAL SAY IN ALL areas of question would be put to SGGSJ ONLY.  SGGSJ IS OUR GURU.  
No man made Rhetnama (which was subject to culture influence) could have say over SGGSJ.

Get it???

THE RESULT????
You would likely end up with something very similar to Sikh Rehet Maryada anyway.  Because vast majority of Sikhs believe in gender equality, not the bias in the DDT GRM.  AKJ would definitely fight for male / female having equal opportunity in seva in addition to that.  The women on the panel would equally majority argue for equality.  And as I said majority of the panth dont follow any jatha and already follow SRM.  You'd have other smaller fights like over meat, which would likely end up in consulting Gurbani and Gurbani is very grey on it.  So again, you'd likely end up with similar result to what SRM is now.  

 

--------------

Neo... my experiences with 3HO came from a member named Kate Miller.  And the hair swinging head banging is on a youtube video... They are doing kirtan with guitars etc on stage (which I am fine with as I said) but the "sikhs" take their turbans off and start swinging their hair around. The idol worship I have see with my own eyes... I have seen them bow not only at Siri Chand idols but also at his grave in India.  (should we not bow only to SGGSJ?) And the meditation on Yogi Bhajans photo is just creepy... I watched them do it at a yoga class.  It wasn't a quick mark of respect, it was a prolonged staring at a specific image of YB and chanting.  
Other things: Sikh Rehet Maryada says to make karah prashad must be made in the traditional way.  I am assuming they don't follow SRM then?  

Dont get me wrong... I don't think they are bad people and most who do beadbi of SGGSJ (yoga with backs tuned to SGGSJ in Diwan Hall etc) are doing it unknowingly... in fact majority of 3HO members do not really even understand that most Sikhs don't do kundalini yoga.  They think yoga class IS Sikhi.  (This goes for a vast majority of them, from talking to them on the KY Facebook group).  They had no idea of actual Sikh religious practices.  They just signed up to do yoga, and then become a yoga teacher and then paid 35.00 USD for a SIkh 'spiritual' name chosen by numerology, and then considered themselves to be Sikh.  If you dont believe me, just join the kundalini yoga group on facebook and talk to some random people on there.  

Having said that some of them do practice Sikhi pretty closely.  And I have friends who are 3HO who swear that flapping your arms and legs during kirtan helps... Personally it's not for me though.  And I do like a lot of music that has come out of there  like Singh Kaur.... I do know Gursant Singh... and I think he goes overboard but he does make some good points too. Some things they do (because they have been misguided) can be labeled as beadbi.  
Did you know there was a petition to Akal Takht to try and stop some of the bad practices by 3HO? It was started in India actually... not to ostracize them completely, but just to make them aware that some practices they do they should look at changing... I don't know who started it.  

 

 

[paapiman]

3HO centres their whole life around kundalini tantric sex yoga. They distort gurbani, and Yogi Bhajan was a crook who invented himself as a fake leader "mahan tantric" called himself "siri singh sahib" and said Akal Takht gave him the honor. 

Watch your words. Sri Yogi Bhajan jee is a highly respected Sikh figure.

Bhul chuk maaf

DDT (or other small sects) can NOT speak for the entire panth Paapiman.  Majority of Sikhs do not believe in their sexist ideology.  Majority of Sikhs do not follow any jatha or taksal etc. and follow Sikh Rehet Maryada already.  They will never go to being forced to do sexist practices.  (just look at the uproar that happened with Hari Singh Randhawa over his sexist statements about women and suggesting they cant do seva at all ever... because they might accidentally have their period at any time. He was HUGELY ostracized across the entire planet - not just in BC where it happened.)

 

The uproar happened because the Gurudwara was not following DDT RM. If it was following the right maryada, there would have been no problems. Gursikh women know their limits.

Bhul chuk maaf

You'd have other smaller fights like over meat, which would likely end up in consulting Gurbani and Gurbani is very grey on it.  So again, you'd likely end up with similar result to what SRM is now.  

If one does not have proper knowledge of Gurbani, then even black and white issues, seem to be grey.

Bhul chuk maaf

If there is ever another panthic decision on an RM it cant be made by only so called orthodox sects.  Or else majority of the panth will be left out, and will never agree to follow it.  

 

Cults cannot be allowed to make a panthic decision. 

In some cases, majority can be wrong too. One cannot say, majority is always right.

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

Paapiman, you know that MAJORITY of men as the age have enlarged prostrates and that means MAJORITY OF MEN dribble at some time or another and it happens FAR MORE OFTEN than you think.  So does that mean any male over 50 should be also told to never do seva because they can accidentally dribble urine on their kacheras?  Hari Singh Rhandawa himself probably dribbles urine on his kacheras!!! He should restrict himself from any seva of SGGSJ!  And since ANY MAN it doesnt even have to be older, can dribble urine... you have in all likelyhood done it at times, because the way male plumbing works... the potential to dribble is in ANY MAN for awhile after urination.  ALL MEN should be kept from ALL seva of SGGSJ!  Maybe only the older women who have stopped periods or women on medication to stop periods should be doing ALL the seva then!!! See how ricidulous this becomes.

Stop trying to use Brahamgyani as excuse with everything!  Do you think Waheguru Ji is telling you to ignore what is COMMANDED in Gurbani because you think you can never live up to Brahamgyani?  You are using it as an excuse to get out of having to listen to instruction in Gurbani.  Like a free pass or something.... hey using that one twisted Gurbani tuk you like so much to degrade women, what if I said only Brahamgyani women can ever see their husband as God.  And since I'll never be Brahamgyani I dot have to worry about it.  So it shouldn't even be in DDTs Gurmat Rehet MAryada then!  

Your thinking is truly twisted.... 
 

Watch your words. Sri Yogi Bhajan jee is a highly respected Sikh figure.

Bhul chuk maaf

You know he sexually assaulted numerous women right? And they WON the cases against him...


Anyway I tried to block you why am I still able to see your nonsense responses??

 

[paapiman]

Paapiman, you know that MAJORITY of men as the age have enlarged prostrates and that means MAJORITY OF MEN dribble at some time or another and it happens FAR MORE OFTEN than you think.  So does that mean any male over 50 should be also told to never do seva because they can accidentally dribble urine on their kacheras?  Hari Singh Rhandawa himself probably dribbles urine on his kacheras!!! He should restrict himself from any seva of SGGSJ!  And since ANY MAN it doesnt even have to be older, can dribble urine... you have in all likelyhood done it at times, because the way male plumbing works... the potential to dribble is in ANY MAN for awhile after urination.  ALL MEN should be kept from ALL seva of SGGSJ!  Maybe only the older women who have stopped periods or women on medication to stop periods should be doing ALL the seva then!!! See how ricidulous this becomes.

There are many men, who do not dribble urine.  I think, most men, below the age of 50, don't dribble.

If a male has a medical condition of dribbling urine, he should avoid doing seva of Satguru jee.

Bhul chuk maaf

Stop trying to use Brahamgyani as excuse with everything!  Do you think Waheguru Ji is telling you to ignore what is COMMANDED in Gurbani because you think you can never live up to Brahamgyani?  You are using it as an excuse to get out of having to listen to instruction in Gurbani.  Like a free pass or something.... hey using that one twisted Gurbani tuk you like so much to degrade women, what if I said only Brahamgyani women can ever see their husband as God.  And since I'll never be Brahamgyani I dot have to worry about it.  So it shouldn't even be in DDTs Gurmat Rehet MAryada then!  

All Gursikh women should look upon their husbands (Gursikh ones) as demi-gods. That tuk applies to all women.

Bhul chuk maaf

Maybe only the older women who have stopped periods or women on medication to stop periods should be doing ALL the seva then!!! See how ricidulous this becomes.
 

Older women, who don't menstruate, should be allowed to do seva of Satguru jee.

Bhul chuk maaf

You know he sexually assaulted numerous women right? And they WON the cases against him...

Can you please provide some evidence? 

Anyways, if someone has been proven guilty by law, it does not mean that one is rightfully guilty. Even Jarnail Singh jee Bhindrawale was made to look like a terrorist.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited July 18, 2015 by paapiman