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Being Born Female Is Karmic Punishment?


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Hello, I have been interested in Sikhism for while, but something someone explained to me here (I'm in London UK) was that Sikhism sees being born as a woman as a punishment for past karma? He told me that women need to be reborn first as a male before they can become 'liberated'? What does this mean?

He said because even Sikhism, which says that women are treated as equals, really they are not.  There are always limitations placed on women, and any limitation at all compared to men, means that to be born a woman is a punishment.  He said that something in a girl's past life, caused her to be born into a female body where she must navigate life with less strength, less ability, less intelligence (he actually said that), and less privileges as compared to men where she is to be seen as simple, domestic minded, and kept from leadership and prominent roles in society.  

Obviously in the west, women have been given close to equality, but have not attained it fully.  

Some people say that is just a different role compared to men, but any role which has less privileges to another, must have been because of past karma then? 

Is this the position of women in Sikhism? I know it's like that in Hinduism, and I think Jainism? Where men think that women are born in that body because of punishment. 
Are there things in Sikhism that men can do that women are not allowed?  An if so, is it because women are beneath men because of karma and that a woman will have to be reborn as a male before she can attain liberation?

Forgive me if I didn't make sense, I am new learning about it.  

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Hello, I have been interested in Sikhism for while, but something someone explained to me here (I'm in London UK) was that Sikhism sees being born as a woman as a punishment for past karma? He told me that women need to be reborn first as a male before they can become 'liberated'? What does this mean?

He said because even Sikhism, which says that women are treated as equals, really they are not.  There are always limitations placed on women, and any limitation at all compared to men, means that to be born a woman is a punishment.  He said that something in a girl's past life, caused her to be born into a female body where she must navigate life with less strength, less ability, less intelligence (he actually said that), and less privileges as compared to men where she is to be seen as simple, domestic minded, and kept from leadership and prominent roles in society.  

Obviously in the west, women have been given close to equality, but have not attained it fully.  

Some people say that is just a different role compared to men, but any role which has less privileges to another, must have been because of past karma then? 

Is this the position of women in Sikhism? I know it's like that in Hinduism, and I think Jainism? Where men think that women are born in that body because of punishment. 
Are there things in Sikhism that men can do that women are not allowed?  An if so, is it because women are beneath men because of karma and that a woman will have to be reborn as a male before she can attain liberation?

Forgive me if I didn't make sense, I am new learning about it.  

Women can also attain salvation in Sikhism. Mother(female) is considered as the first guru of a child. 

The only restriction in Sikhism for women is that women cannot be part of the Panj Pyaray (5 beloved ones who prepare a nectar and baptize people). The reason for that being, female body is incapable to be part of that process; like a male body is incapable of giving birth to a child. 
 
Please feel free to ask questions on Sikhism. Some people on this forum are really knowledgeable.
 
Bhul chuk maaf

 

Edited by paapiman
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Why would a female body be incapable of preparing 'nectar'? What is required that only a male can do and not a female? (I am kind of scared to ask now what's IN this nectar!)?  Please say it's nothing to do with a certain male reproductive ummm fluid?

And is this karmic punishment that she doesn't have this capability? 

And I know men can't give birth at least without medical science then it's possible and has happened before but men still do play the part that 50% of that child DNA is theirs.  So it doesnt really matter whos body takes care of gestation. As I said there has been a man who carried a child so it can be done by taking hormones and implanting an embryo and of course c-section is needed but may women also have c-section.  But I dont see how preparing a nectar for baptism would require a male parts unless those parts are somehow used in the process? (which again I am scared to ask).

But being female myself I am looking at how most religions place limitations on women. There is not one single religion I have found where women can do more than men or even the same amount of things as men. Its always men have one or two things they are allowed to do which women aren't.  I am trying to figure out if there is something to this claim that we are born with some kind of karmic debt and thats why we are given less privileges than men.  Like sometimes I feel this body is defective and I dont want to be female anymore and like God has punished me but if I am being punished then its hard because I dont know what I did wrong to be born in this body.

I was interested in reading more about sikhism because it says men and women are equal, but if there are any limitations that is not equal then? There is still an inequality putting women at a disadvantage especially if they cant be baptized without men? It means men are spiritually higher than us? 

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Paapiman, how exactly is the female body not capable to do this? Can you please explain in detail?

What aspect of Amrit Sanchar, requires male genetalia to perform??

You only need to be able to stay in bir posture, stir the amrit, and recite the prayers and administer the amrit. This doesn't take so much physical strength that a female could not do it.

As for spiritual requirements of the panj, they need to be of high avastha.  Since our souls are genderless (or so I thought), any soul is capable of achieving high avastha, or are they?

Are you suggesting that our souls are also male or female? Because I thought our souls were all the exact same as described in Gurbani?

If not, maybe she has a point then, that being born a female is karmic punishment, which would mean that soul was low avastha - that is the only way I can see how a female would end up incapable of administering Amrit due to spiritual requirements is if a woman is of lower spiritual state than men. Is this waht you are saying?

And what about the people who have received amrit where a female was one of the Panj pyaras? Do you mean those people were never really baptized? Obviously those females physically carried out the proper steps, so they are not - physically - incapable.  So then you are suggesting it is that they are - spiritually - incapable? But since we are all genderless souls, it MUST be because they messed up in a previous life and are lower spiritually and that's how they ended up in a female body? 
 

Hence, being born in a female body IS a punishment for past karma.  I see no other way to see it based on your description because there is nothing physically carried out during Amrit Sanchar that a female could not physically do.  So it must be because they are spiritually lacking compared to us.  So then how can they also attain mukti if they are lower than us to begin with? Shouldn't they be born as a male first to progress higher spiritually?

 

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As for spiritual requirements of the panj, they need to be of high avastha.  Since our souls are genderless (or so I thought), any soul is capable of achieving high avastha, or are they?

 

Not only females, but transgenders, disabled, critically ill, etc, people are also not allowed to be part of Panj Pyaray.

More details to come later.

Bhul chuk maaf

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Why would a female body be incapable of preparing 'nectar'? What is required that only a male can do and not a female? (I am kind of scared to ask now what's IN this nectar!)?  Please say it's nothing to do with a certain male reproductive ummm fluid?

And is this karmic punishment that she doesn't have this capability? 

 

It is noting to do with male reproductive fluid, but with the actual make-up of male body, which is different from a female body.

 

 

And I know men can't give birth at least without medical science then it's possible and has happened before but men still do play the part that 50% of that child DNA is theirs.  So it doesnt really matter whos body takes care of gestation. As I said there has been a man who carried a child so it can be done by taking hormones and implanting an embryo and of course c-section is needed but may women also have c-section.  But I dont see how preparing a nectar for baptism would require a male parts unless those parts are somehow used in the process? (which again I am scared to ask).

 

 

Men giving birth to children, using medical technology, is against nature. Human female body has been designed to keep the child in womb and give birth. People can change their sex too, by surgeries. Please don't talk about rare cases or cases, where medical technology has been used. Also, men's role in child birth is very minute, compared to that of a woman.

Additionally, mother gets the advantage to change the destiny of the child (while in womb), not the father. Don't you think, this is biased towards females?

 

 

But being female myself I am looking at how most religions place limitations on women. There is not one single religion I have found where women can do more than men or even the same amount of things as men. Its always men have one or two things they are allowed to do which women aren't.  I am trying to figure out if there is something to this claim that we are born with some kind of karmic debt and thats why we are given less privileges than men.  Like sometimes I feel this body is defective and I dont want to be female anymore and like God has punished me but if I am being punished then its hard because I dont know what I did wrong to be born in this body.

 

A female body was designed by God to give birth, male body was not. Even males can question, why cannot we (naturally) give birth to a child? Don't you think, this is biased towards females

Another fact in Sikhism - Killing of a woman is described as a major sin in Sikhism, not that of a man. Don't you think, this is biased towards females?

 

 

I was interested in reading more about sikhism because it says men and women are equal, but if there are any limitations that is not equal then? There is still an inequality putting women at a disadvantage especially if they cant be baptized without men? It means men are spiritually higher than us? 

Well, men need women, to come into this world. A male can only impregnate a woman, but the women can keep aborting the vessel. Don't you think, this is biased towards females?

God has given optimum rights to both, males and females, depending on the make-up of their bodies. Female body is incapable of producing amrit. Details will come later.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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It is noting to do with male reproductive fluid, but with the actual make-up of male body, which is different from a female body.

 

 

Men giving birth to children, using medical technology, is against nature. Human female body has been designed to keep the child in womb and give birth. People can change their sex too, by surgeries. Please don't talk about rare cases or cases, where medical technology has been used. Also, men's role in child birth is very minute, compared to that of a woman.

Additionally, mother gets the advantage to change the destiny of the child (while in womb), not the father. Don't you think, this is biased towards females?

 

 

A female body was designed by God to give birth, male body was not. Even males can question, why cannot we (naturally) give birth to a child? Don't you think, this is biased towards females

Another fact in Sikhism - Killing of a woman is described as a major sin in Sikhism, not that of a man. Don't you think, this is biased towards females?

 

Well, men need women, to come into this world. A male can only impregnate a woman, but the women can keep aborting the vessel. Don't you think, this is biased towards females?

God has given optimum rights to both, males and females, depending on the make-up of their bodies. Female body is incapable of producing amrit. Details will come later.

Bhul chuk maaf

But what if I choose to never embrace being a Mother. I dont have any interest to ever have a baby, or have to deal with all the work that comes with one. I am also not interested in cleaning, cooking or nappy changing. I want to be a doctor (Im only 16 but I am working for this now and have very high grades) Dont you think its unfair to look at girls as if our only importance is to breed?  A man can choose to never be a Father but he can still make this amrit?

What is so different about a male body that amrit can not be made by a female? Arent our DNA the exact same (human) the only difference is that males have a Y chromosome (and Y chromosome is inactive actually). But even if it has something to do with Y chromosome, how does this actually affect the nectar? Is some part of your physical body used somehow to stir it? I cant see how when human skin is all the same, that there would be any difference?  You can use human skin from a male donor on a female who had burns, a male or female can be implanted a heart or kidney from someone who is opposite gender.  So I dont understand if the actual reproductive parts are not used for making it, how gender would have any effect?

And doesnt this still mean inequality?  That women are less important than men because they cant do it? It means there is something wrong with my body then, since arent we supposed to focus on the spiritual not the physical? Since I have read about other religions, all say that we are supposed to forget the physical and concentrate on getting to spiritual.

So the spiritual is higher imortance not breeding and having physical babies. And if girls only importance is to pop out babies, then men have the more important and better role.  Meaning that for some reason I was put in this female body instead of a male one when a male one would be better.  Girls have the role which is not fun and seen as you said we are incapable. 

So what did I do wrong?  How can I make sure to be born a male next time?  I hate being a female. I wish I was born as a boy.  So it is a punishment then.

 

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Sometimes, when we ourselves don't have full knowledge we are unable to explain the concepts to other people. Before making any statement, we should have a full grasp of it .

By making certain statements, we indirectly give the opposite party a chance to do slander of important concepts and traditions.

In my observation, most people do not want to learn from a discussion but rather only desire a feeling of accomplishment, and stay unchanged from their thought patterns as dictated by their ego.

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 So I dont understand if the actual reproductive parts are not used for making it, how gender would have any effect?

Reproductive parts are not the only difference between a male and a female. Male and female brains operate differently and are actually physically different too. Additionally, there are more differences.

Anyways, God willing, Daas will post the reasons of why a female body is incapable of being part of Panj Pyaray, in the future. In the meantime, you can become a registered member of this forum and gain more knowledge, if you want.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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So what did I do wrong?  How can I make sure to be born a male next time?  I hate being a female. I wish I was born as a boy.  So it is a punishment then.

 

I don't know why but it sounds like you're just on the run to prove that every religion is false or incomplete. I might be wrong but that's the impression I got from your messages.

But anyways, as I've explained in my first post, you're bound to find different interpretations of the same concept depending upon to which group the responder belongs to. If your intention is to study new language, then would you start from lesson-1 OR last-lesson? I think one would start from Lesson-1; therefore I again suggest you to study Guru Granth Sahib Ji where you won't find any reference to these contradictions. I am NOT suggesting that if you read Guru Granth Sahib Ji, you will understand why women can't be Panj payaras. I'm merely suggesting to understand some Spiritual truths for the betterment of your life.

Moreover, can I ask, what's the issue with the religion you're born in? Your religion might be affected with the same contradictions which won't be present if you seriously study it. In other words, it would be easier for you to understand your own birth religion instead of finding it somewhere else. The truth could be found where it is: Within. Please let us know your religion and we might be able to provide some good translations of that religion which might help you.

e.g If a seed is planted in one pot and then it is pulled from that soil and cleaned of its soil and eventually planted it in another pot; then the survivability of that plant is decreased to many folds. In other words, it is best possible environment for the plant if it kept in its root soil.

But if your intention is something else, then please "lage-raho"......i.e keep throwing water at sky.

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My understanding is that it women could have been part of the punj, but no woman stood up during the first Amrit Sanchar, only men, and it was set from there. 

Whether the above is true or not, the bottom line is that It's Hukam. As sikhs we are required to accept Hukam. We know it is Hukam b/c the panth has historically accepted women as administrators of provinces and as military leaders, but never as part of the punj piare. The various traditional orders of the sikh dharm that carried forward Maharaj's teachings universally agree on this point. 

Bani gives us further guidance, teaching us to learn about the Gurus teachings from the sants. The sants also unanimously agree on this point. This includes female sants as well. 

 ‘He, in whose heart Nirankar has taken residence, the entire world is delivered through his teaching’ (269:9)”

 

 

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Why would a female body be incapable of preparing 'nectar'? What is required that only a male can do and not a female? (I am kind of scared to ask now what's IN this nectar!)?  Please say it's nothing to do with a certain male reproductive ummm fluid?

And is this karmic punishment that she doesn't have this capability? 

And I know men can't give birth at least without medical science then it's possible and has happened before but men still do play the part that 50% of that child DNA is theirs.  So it doesnt really matter whos body takes care of gestation. As I said there has been a man who carried a child so it can be done by taking hormones and implanting an embryo and of course c-section is needed but may women also have c-section.  But I dont see how preparing a nectar for baptism would require a male parts unless those parts are somehow used in the process? (which again I am scared to ask).

But being female myself I am looking at how most religions place limitations on women. There is not one single religion I have found where women can do more than men or even the same amount of things as men. Its always men have one or two things they are allowed to do which women aren't.  I am trying to figure out if there is something to this claim that we are born with some kind of karmic debt and thats why we are given less privileges than men.  Like sometimes I feel this body is defective and I dont want to be female anymore and like God has punished me but if I am being punished then its hard because I dont know what I did wrong to be born in this body.

I was interested in reading more about sikhism because it says men and women are equal, but if there are any limitations that is not equal then? There is still an inequality putting women at a disadvantage especially if they cant be baptized without men? It means men are spiritually higher than us? 

The dictum of the Panj Pyare being all and only men was made and followed by the Damdami Taksal, Nihang Dals, and Nanaksar. The Akhand Kirtani Jatha for one, condones women being in the Panj and even practiced it. 

 

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So what did I do wrong?  How can I make sure to be born a male next time?  I hate being a female. I wish I was born as a boy.  So it is a punishment then.

According to your line of thinking, it is a possibility that some Chinese people can start complaining about their eyes, some black people can start complaining about their hair and lips, etc. Whatever God has done, is perfect. We need to accept God's will. Even, women have been given certain abilities, which men don't possess or are relatively poor at. Should men also start whining then?

If there are restrictions in other religions too, regarding women, then it should give you an indication that there might be some rationale behind it.

Therefore, sister, please accept God's will. Life is too short to keep questioning. When one grows spiritually, one will find answers to many questions.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

Edited by paapiman
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But I don't want to be a woman in this limited body.  I want to be a boy because they always have it better.  Sometimes I feel like I want to end it so I can be born a boy but I know that would be wrong. If this is punishment than I should just endure the punisihment if I did something wrong to be in this body.

The ones who make the nectar for baptism, are they leader like a priest? It seems like its always the leader position in churches that girls are kept from so we always have to just listen and obey their words and they get to command us.  Most religion say only the priests can talk to God and only boys can be priests. So girls must be lower or God hates us. I was raised as Catholic but we are told no women priests, no women in leader roles, men are always in charge we just have to listen. I am tired of always having to just listen I feel like I am a baby while my brother is treated as an adult. 

Kuttabanda What do you mean by these names? "Damdami Taksal, Nihang Dals, and Nanaksar." Akhand Kirtani Jatha ?  What do you mean by these? Who are Akhand Kirthani Jata? How can they do it with women if women are incapable? Did they modify it somehow so that they could?  So they have no limits placed on only girls? Can you tell me more about them? Can someone tell me more about the baptism nectar and how its made? 

 

 

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Guest post at 1042 am yesterday was me (Satkirin) as I cant log on at work (government system and loggong on issues with cookies). The post challenging Paapiman to explain ....that was me... Seeker however is not me.

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The ones who make the nectar for baptism, are they leader like a priest? It seems like its always the leader position in churches that girls are kept from so we always have to just listen and obey their words and they get to command us.  Most religion say only the priests can talk to God and only boys can be priests. So girls must be lower or God hates us. I was raised as Catholic but we are told no women priests, no women in leader roles, men are always in charge we just have to listen.

Sikhism has no restrictions on females, being priests or leaders. The only restriction has been explained before.

Bhul chuk maaf

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But I don't want to be a woman in this limited body.  I want to be a boy because they always have it better.  Sometimes I feel like I want to end it so I can be born a boy but I know that would be wrong. If this is punishment than I should just endure the punisihment if I did something wrong to be in this body.

Sister, please accept God's will and you will find peace.

There is no doubt that you can attain salvation as a female, if you accept Sikhism by being baptized.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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Being a woman myself, I have never thought much about my gender.Sometime I do think like If I were a man,then could do bhagti or meditation without social hindrances like no ghrasti no marriage only meditation and could reside anywhere alone.These are my only concerns with my gender.Then at same other time,my soul answers I can still do all these things That's just an illusion nd is trying to restrict my progression.If my inner will and love is strong enough then Maharaj can help to achieve the impossible.

So I think Such thoughts which are creating doubts in your mind may be a big trap of Maya to create hindrances or may act like a key for your hidden door.Choice is yours.What you want to come out of these thoughts? Anyways It sounds easy but still everything's in waheguru's hand.So again and again do ardaas.He will himself answer you.and answer is within you.As you 'll found nothing outside.So close your physical ears and try to listen to the divine sound that's only within yourself.You'll certainly be answered.

And Don't feel bad being born as a female.Infact ,Do thanks to almighty in all possible ways to bless you with this human body.Many many many souls are yearning to take birth as a human.Just keep thanking for having this life.Otherwise,if it finishes without any achievment,then it will be so hard even to have this female body.

Gur fateh!!

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And second about females in panj pyaare:

Personally I dont think that I can give answer to this question.I'm little bit controversial on this topic.Hope I had progressed much to have answer of this question.

Many sikh jathas have their own point of views.Dont know much about DDT or Nanaksar's views about it.

Not sure if AKJ supports it.

But I do know about an incident regarding AKJ which I was told about by my grandfather.

Once Bhai Mohinder Singh SDO (was well known gurmukh of AKJ) tried to prepare Amrit by female panj,but after doing this he was asked to leave the jatha.So may be AKJ dont support this.

Same time Another incident that creates doubts in my mind and force me to think that females can be the  part of panj pyaare is that incident when wife of bhagat kabir ji gave naam to a king.So If she could give  naam then why females can't be the part of panj pyaare as it's the same ceremony of giving naam to a person.

And In Gurbani (as per my knowledge) there is no difference between Men and women.Might be there is an indication in Gurbani to not allow women to give Naam,but still I'm not known to that.

Secondly,When I read that it was bachans of mahapurkhs to not allow women being panj pyaare then I left speechless.

So it's better to do ardaas for the right answer or to consult a true brahmgyani for the real understanding.

 

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