Amrit, Duality, Pany-Payaras

[CdnSikhGirl]

3 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

I agree that the light is in all, the same in man & woman. And Gurbani instructs us to see light in all.

But we have to be fair for everyone.  There are good arguments on both sides. So people for like whose minds are still clouded by EGO, and cannot see the light we need a method too. So to be on the safe side, we simple follow old tradition.

As I said , an option should be available for those who want to take it from women.

But in the name of justice, and fairness, both sides should be presented to new sangat, & let them decide what they want. They should not be unfairly pushed into taking amrit from a woman panj pyara,:) They should have a choice.

 

Right and also not unfiarly pushed into taking it from all males!!

[Ragmaala]

4 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Also, someone brand new to Sikhi would likely not be jumping right into Amrit anyway... So yes, they have choice to take AMrit from group who has women and they should be given all the facts:

- Nothing in Gurbani to say otherwise
- Nothing in Guru Ji 52Hukams to say otherwise
- Gurbani actually INSTRUCTS us to see everyone equally (see above)
- SRM specifically states both women and men can be Panj Pyaras
- DDTs RM states that creation of the Khalsa ELIMINATED all such differences, INCLUDING GENDER. 
- No RM specifically says women are not allowed
- Amrit Sanchar is spiritual rebirth and souls are all formless (having no gender) so why would a penis be required?
- Guru Ji called for five HEADS that day. It was not a test to single out women. If a woman had risen do you think he would have said sorry sister this is only for the guys. It happened that the five were male but it doesnt mean he forever put a ban on women
Since there is no definitive anything saying women can not. Then the only thing which is keeping women from doing it are the Singhs!  Keeping a tradition that happened for no other reason than "that's how we have been doing it" but does Sikhi uphold a tradition that exists for no other reason than to discriminate??? I don't think so!

You have presented good points. These points should be presented to sangat from one side.

The other side can present their points.

Then the sangat can decide if they want a female panj pyara.

Some people may like woman panj pyara, some people are more traditional. We need to cater to both sides, to be fair.

imo, both sides, for & against woman panj pyara have good arguments. 

So it should be fair for all.  Thats all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

@paapiman  I know you don't usually read my posts but here is a paradox:

You stated that Guru Ji Light actually enters the Panj Pyaras and that it is HIM who gives amrit right??

How do you explain then when I took Amrit, from five males, they actually told us females present that day that women CAN do this seva as Panj Pyaras, not only that they directly told us that they WANT TO SEE AT LEAST SOME OF US in their place someday also doing seva as Panj Pyaras!!!  Remember you just said it was Guru Ji who actually gives Amrit. This was said DURING the Amrit Sanchar BY THE PANJ PYARAS!  Meaning, it was actually GURU JI SAYING IT!!!! 

[Ragmaala]

2 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Right and also not unfiarly pushed into taking it from all males!!

Males will not have a problem with this.

I have not come across any females who have a problem with this except you.

However, if there are women like you , who want female panj pyara, an option should be available for those women. A separate amrit sanchar can be started for them.

And women can also be enouraged & trained for being a panj pyara , if need arises to cater to such group people.

However, most people dont care for such small difference, and they like to be on safe side, and follow tradition.

[CdnSikhGirl]

5 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

You have presented good points. These points should be presented to sangat from one side.

The other side can present their points.

Then the sangat can decide if they want a female panj pyara.

Some people may like woman panj pyara, some people are more traditional. We need to cater to both sides, to be fair.

imo, both sides, for & against woman panj pyara have good arguments. 

So it should be fair for all.  Thats all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm fine with choice... I'm fine with all males, as long as females are not excluded. If it happens to be all males one time and the next time a mixture and the next time all females I really don't mind!  I'm not saying a woman has to be every time :) I'm saying they shouldn't be excluded completely. That way if a guy is really THAT worried he can take it during a time when they are males.  If a woman wants all females she can take it when they have all females... etc.  Ultimately I think the Panj Pyaras should be chosen based on their avastha, their spiritual level, and should be the five most spiritually active members in Sangat. Their physical attributes should not come into it. 

[paapiman]

@N30 S!NGH - Paaji, you can lock this topic. The reference has been added.

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Ragmaala]

Just now, CdnSikhGirl said:

I'm fine with choice... I'm fine with all males, as long as females are not excluded. If it happens to be all males one time and the next time a mixture and the next time all females I really don't mind!  I'm not saying a woman has to be every time :) I'm saying they shouldn't be excluded completely. That way if a guy is really THAT worried he can take it during a time when they are males.  If a woman wants all females she can take it when they have all females... etc. 

All I am saying is that the sangat who wants to take Amrit should be well informed of both sides & argument.  Women can be a part of 5 Pyaras.

What the sangat decides is upto them, but they should be well-informed. Having said that, most people will go for traditional way ( I could be wrong though).

When a doctor does a procedure on a patient, the patient is well informed.  Similarly, Amrit is a big ceremony, sangat should be well informed.

[GurpreetKaur]

I am sure there might be a place where females are included in Panj peyarey since a lot of people from west are joining Sikhi. There is a huge difference between western and eastern men and women thinking ( good and bad) lol. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Just now, GurpreetKaur said:

I am sure there might be a place where females are included in Panj peyarey since a lot of people from west are joining Sikhi. There is a huge difference between western and eastern men and women thinking ( good and bad) lol. 

Not just west. Akhand Kirtani Jatha allow both - actually allow isnt even the word to use. Rather, they choose their Panj Pyaras based on their spiritual level and dedication, and not on what's between their legs. This includes AKJ in India. I have actually seen it. 

[GurpreetKaur]

7 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Not just west. Akhand Kirtani Jatha allow both - actually allow isnt even the word to use. Rather, they choose their Panj Pyaras based on their spiritual level and dedication, and not on what's between their legs. This includes AKJ in India. I have actually seen it. 

Then where is the problem? People who want females to be in panj peyarey go there and people who follow traditions go to the place where panj peyray are men.

[CdnSikhGirl]

3 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

Then where is the problem? People who want females to be in panj peyarey go there and people who follow traditions go to the place where panj peyray are men.

Exactly... however certain members on here knowing this have directly put AKJ down, and call them lowest like nindaks etc. for it. (well this and ragmaala issue) 

Seems some just are not happy if there is the choice. They want to remove the choice of everyone and make everyone conform to their way of thinking only. 

[GurpreetKaur]

Just now, CdnSikhGirl said:

Exactly... however certain members on here knowing this have directly put AKJ down, and call them lowest like nindaks etc. for it. 

Who cares? Let them do their thing. If they don't like AKJ, they don't have to follow them and people who like AKJ, they follow them. AKJ is akhand kirtan jatha right? They do kirtan with a lot of instruments. I like their Kirtans and so does snatam and traditional ones. When I listen to kirtan, I don't care about jatha. I just care about how I feel and connecting to Vaheguroo.

[paapiman]

9 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

 AKJ is akhand kirtan jatha right? 

AKJ is Akhand Kirtani Jatha. They do good kirtan. Some of their members are spiritually very high too.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Ragmaala]

1 hour ago, GurpreetKaur said:

Then where is the problem? People who want females to be in panj peyarey go there and people who follow traditions go to the place where panj peyray are men.

Good. Problem solved. Let everyone do their thing. Lets be inclusive, and stop attacking each other on maryada differences. Sikhi caters everyone.

 

 

 

[paapiman]

28 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

Good. Problem solved. Let everyone do their thing. Lets be inclusive, and stop attacking each other on maryada differences. Sikhi caters everyone

Problem solved -- Not exactly. Tampering with God made Maryada is very dangerous. We cannot start changing our rules brother, to become more inclusive. What's next? Anand Karaj of Homosexuals? Homosexuals as Panj Pyaray? Women on menses entering Sachkhands?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

17 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Problem solved -- Not exactly. Tampering with God made Maryada is very dangerous. We cannot start changing our rules brother, to become more inclusive. What's next? Anand Karaj of Homosexuals? Homosexuals as Panj Pyaray? Women on menses entering Sachkhands?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

THIS is what I am talking about!!!! ^^^^ And btw ALL Maryadas are man made.  If they were God Made, then we wouldn't have all kind of different Rehetnamas etc. all with different ideas. They were written by humans, trying to put what they believe is the correct conduct according to their own lenses. 

Also, you can sense the disgust in his tone above... trying to equate women with things he considers to be abominations... like homosexuality, and menstruation.  Not commenting on homosexuality, but as far as menstruation goes, Gurbani is pretty clear on that!!! Please refer to the thread where I am asking Amarjeet these questions. Gurbani CONDEMNS idea of ritual impurity because of blood. 

GURBANI = GURU and GURU = GOD RIGHT????? WE HAVE THE ANSWERS ALREADY IN SGGSJ!!!

[GurpreetKaur]

5 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Problem solved -- Not exactly. Tampering with God made Maryada is very dangerous. We cannot start changing our rules brother, to become more inclusive. What's next? Anand Karaj of Homosexuals? Homosexuals as Panj Pyaray? Women on menses entering Sachkhands?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

So every time Mata Gujri ji was on her month, she was not allow to enter Sachkhand( I thought it's a state of mind btw)? 

[paapiman]

1 minute ago, GurpreetKaur said:

So every time Mata Gujri ji was on her month, she was not allow to enter Sachkhand( I thought it's a state of mind btw)? 

Mata jee would have followed her husband lord's instructions and never questioned them.

Sachkhand is a state of mind, exists within us and also exists in the universe. It might have many more meanings.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

13 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Sachkhand is a state of mind, exists within us and also exists in the universe. It might have many more meanings.

• The place where Maharaaj's saroop is kept is also called a Sachkhand.
• Our 5 Takhts are also Sachkhands

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[GurpreetKaur]

7 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Mata jee would have followed her husband lord's instructions and never questioned them.

Sachkhand is a state of mind, exists within us and also exists in the universe. It might have many more meanings.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Sachkhand vasey Nirankar and nirankar tells me to get out of Sachkhand just cuz I am bleeding? The same Blood which is the reason of Existence and bringing men on this planet so they can tell women menses is a hindrance in Sachkhand. For me it's a state of mind and yes it can be physical too but once I reach there do you think I will lower my State? There are jeevan mukt female on this planet too and yes their physical body go through normal routines while their mind are in altered state. 

You seem like a nice person but your thinking about women is somewhat interesting lol. Which Maryada do you follow? Can I read it thank you 

[paapiman]

14 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

Sachkhand vasey Nirankar and nirankar tells me to get out of Sachkhand just cuz I am bleeding? The same Blood which is the reason of Existence and bringing men on this planet so they can tell women menses is a hindrance in Sachkhand. For me it's a state of mind and yes it can be physical too but once I reach there do you think I will lower my State? There are jeevan mukt female on this planet too and yes their physical body go through normal routines while their mind are in altered state. 

You seem like a nice person but your thinking about women is somewhat interesting lol. Which Maryada do you follow? Can I read it thank you 

Sachkhand is also a place where Maharaaj's saroop is kept. It is a hygiene protocol in Sikhism that any women (on menses) must not enter that sacred place. People (men or women) must take full body bath before entering such sacred places. Men, who suffer from any involuntary ejection of bodily fluids, must also avoid going into Sachkhand or doing seva of Maharaaj's saroop.

This is from another topic:

Quote

Any person (male or female or otherwise) who is bleeding, not feeling well, has diarrhea, cold, running nose, high fever, on medications, has flu, any type of infection, any kind of contagious disease, etc must avoid doing Chaur sahib seva, kirtan, katha, langar seva, Maharaaj de seva, etc. This should be common sense as it maintains proper hygiene.

Unquote

 

Please go through the below topic for more details:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Ummm maybe in DDT they have this rule. But it's not a rule at Akal Takht as far as I know. There were no signs there saying stop you bleeding women, no entry allowed. LOL.  I think this is silly because of modern hygiene products.  Last time I checked men don't wear hygiene products to protect against leaks haha 

But as far as I know any Amritdhari can enter Takhts and also where Guru Ji is kept without any mention of menstruation. 

[GurpreetKaur]

22 minutes ago, paapiman said:

• The place where Maharaaj's saroop is kept is also called a Sachkhand.
• Our 5 Takhts are also Sachkhands

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Oh okay so during my month, I should stay away from Maharaaj's saroop but there is no difference between Guru Amardas Ji and SGGS ji and all other Masters. I don't think, their wives and daughters were told to stay away from them during their month? Did 3rd Master told his wife to stay away from him for 3 or 4 days and all other Guru ji too? I don't think so. Did Mata Gujri ji stayed away from 10th Master while he needed motherly Love since there is no difference between 10th Master and SGGS ji.

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

2 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

Oh okay so during my month, I should stay away from Maharaaj's saroop but there is no difference between Guru Amardas Ji and SGGS ji and all other Masters. I don't think, their wives and daughters were told to stay away from them during their month? Did 3rd Master told his wife to stay away from his for 3 or 4 days and all other Guru ji too? I don't think so. Did Mata Gujri ji stayed away from 10th Master while he needed motherly Love since there is no difference between 10th Master and SGGS ji.

 

Think of it this way, there is only ONE soul in all existence! Our separate identities are illusion. How can you tell one part of yourself to stay away from yourself?? 

[CdnSikhGirl]

10 minutes ago, paapiman said: