Amrit, Duality, Pany-Payaras

[CdnSikhGirl]

Hazoor Sahib I read gives women kirpan amrit instead of full amrit... or used to anyway.  Was just asking a question... Pls don't bring that rude person chatanga into this!! He will only start calling me names and being rude again, which I will react to with anger again, and then you guys will say the whole thing blew up again.  KNOWING he will only degrade me and be rude and bring nothing to the conversation, why even bring him into this?  

"When some people visit Takht Sri Hazoor Sahib, they find that the women are baptized by the kirpan (sword) instead of ‘khanda’ during ‘Amrit Sanchar’. While baptizing the women, only Jap Ji Sahib, few stanzas from Jaap Sahib, and six stanzas from Anand Sahib is read. Only one beloved one (Panj Piyara) prepares the Amrit. This Amrit is called ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’.
 

Here, I want to make it clear that there are two types of ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’. One is distributed to the women while baptism. Other is distributed to newborn baby. The ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ distributed to newborn baby is not considered a baptism. It is distributed so that the parents can eat with their babies in a same utensil. It is considered a religious ritual.
 

The distribution of ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ to newborn is a very old tradition in some Gursikh Families. An Amritdhari person recites Sri Jap Ji Sahib and prepares the nectar in an iron bowl with a sword. (Some people recite only first five stanzas of Sri Jap Ji Sahib). Then he put some drops of it into the mouth of newborn using the sword as a spoon. My Nana Ji (the father of mother) himself prepared ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’, when I was born. I was distributed ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ by my Nana Ji himself. It is an old tradition in our families and still kept alive. I do not find anything wrong in this tradition.
 

Distributing this Amrit to newborn is not the baptism. When the child grows, it has to take ‘Khande Da Amrit’. I was distributed ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ when I was born, but later I was baptized through ‘Khande Da Amrit’.

Now, let us discuss about the ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ as a baptism for the women.

I am a Hazoori Singh (often called Hazooriya). I tasted the holy nectar (Amrit) at Takht Sri Hazoor Sahib. I myself saw that the women were baptized by a single beloved one. He prepared the nectar by a small sword. Though, it is said that Jap Ji, few stanzas from Jaap Sahib, and six stanzas from Anand Sahib is read while preparing ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’; it is possible that only the Jap Ji Sahib is read practically.
 

The people want to know what is its history. They want to know what is the logic behind it to baptize the women by kirpan instead of khanda.
 

I think that the book ‘Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh’ represents the views of the people, who support ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ for women.
 

‘Sri Hazoori Maryada Prabodh’ is written by Singh Sahib Joginder Singh ji, the then Jathedar of Takht Sachkhand Abichal Nagar Hazoor Sahib (He died some years ago). It was written and published in 1967. I used its first edition while giving references.
 

In this book, the topic ‘Kirpan Da Amrit Maayeeyaan Noon’ (the nectar of sword for women) has been discussed (from page 235 to page 246).
 

Singh Sahib Joginder Singh ji has given a reference to a book ‘Khalsa Dharam Shashtar’. Singh Sahib Joginder Singh wrote that according to ‘Khalsa Dharam Shashtar’, it is an old tradition to distribute ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ to the woman. At the beginning, only ‘Charan Pahul’ (the water, which is used to wash the feet of Guru) was allowed for women. But some Amritdhari (who tasted the nectar) men do not eat the food, which is cooked by non-Amritdhari, so it was thought that women should be distributed ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’. The other reason given in the book is that without ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’, the women cannot get useful ideas to help their warrior husbands. This was the reason to distribute ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ to the women.
 

Actually, the writer of ‘Khalsa Dharam Shashtar’ is trying to say that even ‘Kirpan Da Amrit’ was not allowed for the women. The ‘Charan Pahul’ was the valid baptism for them."

 

[amardeep]

Khalsa Dharam Shaster is from 1914. Prem Sumarag Granth from the 18th Century states that women are to be given Khande Di Pahul.

[Singh123456777]

My grandmother and distant relative took khanda di Amrit from hazur sahib. 

[sukrit kaur]

My points in this debate:

About menstruation : I believe during menstruation chances of getting impure increases.Though there are many hygienic products,but when we talk bout SGGSJ,then doubts arise.So,one should not stop his naam abhyaas,his meditation,paath naim or can even visit to Gurudwara sahib.But PROHIBIT to sit on maharaj's tabya.I mean though nothing is getting leaked out,but how can one sit with "Blood(coming out of vagina) wrapped in a pack"..

This goes for women like me of low awastha.But I believe if your awastha has risen to such an extent like you are now one with jyot saroop,then all rules are excluded.That's a different scene! So ,I can't argument here!

About Women as panj pyaare:

I think one should consult a pooran saint or brahmgyani here.can anyone please share Baba Nand singh jee's or bhai randhir singh jees or baba Isher singh's view bout it?

What I think is that yes!! If woman is of very high awastha,has a very ucha sucha jeevan and has achieved union with supreme then she can be a part of Panj pyyarey! If one is not fulfilling that requirements,then he should not be a part of panj pyaarey..This goes for both men and women!

About jathas or maryadas or sampardas:

Here I usually get irritated! Here skepticism eats me! I mean how can a true sikh use these titles! When you are taking amrit,then amrit is amrit irrespective of its jatha.Always focus whether 5 sikhs are pooran gurmukhs ? If they are pooran gurmukhs,then they will hold everything on its place.Then there will be no need of any query.They will be guided by maharaj himself!!

So please for god's sake,dun use such words like jatha,samparda or maryada.That thing just creates skepticism.It's not mandatory that any samparda has ALL followers who are gurmukhs or vice versa..

WjKK Wjkf!!

[CdnSikhGirl]

I wsn't trying to cause anything I was just wondering if it was still practiced there... Obviously from what you guys are saying it's not --- so thats good, as I don't think there is any basis to it? I read a book from a persian author spy to the moghul emperor (?) (I forget the name now and its been awhile) who mentioned on that day in 1699 many thousands of "men AND women" were baptized by sword. Not sure if it is authentic either, but it wouldn't make sense for a third party who was not follower of the Gurus and was just an onlooker would mention specifically that women were given Amrit along with the men on that first day. Also read another resource that stated Mai Bhago had definitely taken kande de pahul. So I was not absolutely sure about the kirpan amrit thing. Was it just a rumour that this happened? Or were they really at one time practicing this?

[CdnSikhGirl]

Sukrit r agree with all but the menstruaion thing. I think it's personal to the Kaur involved. There are methods of protection now that don't involve wrapping blood in a pack and they don't involving anything coming 'out' of the vagina since it's kept entirely inside her body.  I'm not sure if you ahve heard of menstrual cups or not, but they are medical grade silicone, and are worn internally like a cap kind of over the cervix. They act like a stopper or cap on a bottle. There is no physical way for the blood to leave until it's removed. And then it's washed out and placed back. They can be worn for over 12 hours with no chance of leaking at all, and since its internal, no blood is actually coming out of her body. It stays inside until she removes the device. They are perfectly safe and actually more safe and hygenic than pads and tampons because there is nothing 'soaking' up the blood which can attract bacteria and cause infection. Until the blood leaves the body it's still in same state as any other blood in the body! (similar to how urine is considered sterile until its outside the body).  I highly recommend these things!

Also family planning is allowed in Sikhi. It's not mandatory that every Sikh family has like 12 children (not many could afford that!)! Therefore birth control is allowed for family planning. And most birth control can be taken continuously which stop the cycles alltogether. When the couple wants a child she just goes off the medication and cycles return and she can get pregnant within one month. So if a Singhni is really concerned about being impure (even though Gurbani condemns this idea completely) just take hormonal birth control to stop the cycles alltogether and problem solved. A little hint, since I was in military most of my adult life, not married (and no I never dated), so children was not in any plans, to save from dealing with cycles at sea, I went on depo provera shots every 3 months and as a result most of my adult life I have not had cycles at all! So for me personally it never would have been an issue.

But barring that, if you don't like idea of taking pills or the depo provera shot, then I HIGHLY recomend the menstrual cups. Not just for environment and safety but also since it would make this seva during menstruation a non issue as nothing will leave the body at all. I can understand that in olden days there were not adequate hygiene products and even until recently the pads etc were not 100% reliable but thats not the case anymore.

If one wants to condemn internal processes as impure, well then males produce sperm continuously, and both females and males can leak urine from somehting as simple as a cough or sneeze. In males its common after age of 30 when the prostrate actually starts increasing in size (just due to age). Even soem urine can become trapped in the urethra in males after they urinate, which dribbles out over the next while and I highly doubt that males wear anything to catch this urine. It will end up in their kacheras. You don't want to know details of what other nasty things can occur under foreskins etc. (mostly in males but it can occur in females too) so you see, no matter how much we wash our bodies, we will never be sterilized! Add to that, no matter how well you wash your hands there will always be bacteria present. You will always breathe and have bacteria in your mouth even if you gargle with listerine only moments before. If warm, humans will sweat and a drop of sweat can be considered unclean too!
And these things have nothing to do at all with impurity. Guru Nanak Dev Ji said the only one who is "pure" is the person in whos heart/mind  the Lord is present. I'm not saying not to wash or observe ritual cleanliness, but there has to be a certain amount of common sense too!

For those following the RM that says for women to avoid seva because of menstruation, did you know it also tells you to wash dishes not with washing soap, but ONLY with soil / sand???  I hope if you are condoning avoiding seva because of menstration you are not ignoring other parts of the same RM telling you to wash your dishes with soil!!!
See Here:
http://s30.postimg.org/zevt74crl/0000088888.png

For me, the simple answer is stop cycles alltogether if you are not planning for a baby. Then you will have no doubt in your mind and the Singhs won't have something to hold against you. In fact this is common in Islam as women can't go on Haaj if they are menstruating so they take medication to stop the cycle so they can attend.

 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, sukrit kaur said:

I think one should consult a pooran saint or brahmgyani here.can anyone please share Baba Nand singh jee's or bhai randhir singh jees or baba Isher singh's view bout it?

Sister, most likely, Nanaksar does not allow women to be part of Panj Pyaray. Daas will confirm it with a Singh (who does Katha at Nanaksar). Please give me sometime.

Srimaan 108 Sant Baba Nand Singh jee was a Taksaali Singh and DDT does not allow women to be part of Panj Pyaray. Baba jee would never ever go against Guru Maryada.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, sukrit kaur said:

My points in this debate:

About menstruation : I believe during menstruation chances of getting impure increases.Though there are many hygienic products,but when we talk bout SGGSJ,then doubts arise.So,one should not stop his naam abhyaas,his meditation,paath naim or can even visit to Gurudwara sahib.But PROHIBIT to sit on maharaj's tabya.I mean though nothing is getting leaked out,but how can one sit with "Blood(coming out of vagina) wrapped in a pack".

This is a Gurmukh's way of thinking. Good one Sister.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[sukrit kaur]

4 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Sister, most likely, Nanaksar does not allow women to be part of Panj Pyaray. Daas will confirm it with a Singh (who does Katha at Nanaksar). Please give me sometime.

Okay!!

4 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Srimaan 108 Sant Baba Nand Singh jee was a Taksaali Singh and DDT does not allow women to be part of Panj Pyaray. Baba jee would never ever go against Panth Maryada.

But are there any specific evidences that prove that baba g did not allow so?

4 minutes ago, paapiman said:

 

 

[paapiman]

1 minute ago, sukrit kaur said:

But are there any specific evidences that prove that baba g did not allow so?

Please give me sometime.

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[sukrit kaur]

3 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Please give me sometime.

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Okay veerji!!

WJKK wJKf!

[CdnSikhGirl]

@sukrit kaur This thinking is not Sikhi. Its crept in from other sources (either culture or Brahaminism) 
The ONLY one you should consult on this is your Guru. SGGSJ.  All else is just opinion of those who make statements and we do not know their intentions (whether good or bad).  And if you are going against SGGSJ then what??

This is what our ONLY Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji says on the issue:

Firstly, idea of menstruation being impure is straight out condemned in Gurbani:

ਜਿਉ ਜੋਰੂ ਸਿਰਨਾਵਣੀ ਆਵੈ ਵਾਰੋ ਵਾਰ ॥

Ji▫o jorū sirnāvaṇī āvai vāro vār.

As a woman has her periods, month after month,

ਜੂਠੇ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥

Jūṯẖe jūṯẖā mukẖ vasai niṯ niṯ ho▫e kẖu▫ār.

so does falsehood dwell in the mouth of the false; they suffer forever, again and again.

ਸੂਚੇ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਜਿ ਪਿੰਡਾ ਧੋਇ ॥

Sūcẖe ehi na ākẖī▫ahi bahan jė pindā ḏẖo▫e.

They are not called pure, who sit down after washing their bodies.

ਸੂਚੇ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥

Sūcẖe se▫ī nānkā jin man vasi▫ā so▫e. ||2||

Only they are pure, O Nanak, within whose minds the Lord abides. ||2||

-----

So according to this anyone in whose mind the Lord abides, is pure. There is no "but...unless they are menstruating then they are still impure"!  So purity is a concept of the soul/mind and not the body! Even more evidence?? Look below:

ਬਿਸਟਾ ਅਸਤ ਰਕਤੁ ਪਰੇਟੇ ਚਾਮ ॥

Bistā asaṯ rakaṯ parete cẖām.

you are just excrement, bones and blood, wrapped up in skin -

ਇਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਲੇ ਰਾਖਿਓ ਗੁਮਾਨ ॥੩॥

Is ūpar le rākẖi▫o gumān. ||3||

this is what you are taking such pride in! ||3||

ਏਕ ਵਸਤੁ ਬੂਝਹਿ ਤਾ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਪਾਕ ॥

Ėk vasaṯ būjẖėh ṯā hovėh pāk.

If you could understand even one thing, then you would be pure.

-----

Also, the idea of blood is looked at by Sekh Fareed Ji as well... 

ਬਾਹਰਿ ਦਿਸੈ ਚਾਨਣਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਅੰਧਿਆਰੀ ਰਾਤਿ ॥੫੦॥

Bāhar ḏisai cẖānṇā ḏil anḏẖi▫ārī rāṯ. ||50||

Outwardly, you might look bright, but your heart is dark as night. ||50||

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਰਤੀ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਨਿਕਲੈ ਜੇ ਤਨੁ ਚੀਰੈ ਕੋਇ ॥

Farīḏā raṯī raṯ na niklai je ṯan cẖīrai ko▫e.

Fareed, not even a drop of blood would issue forth, if someone cut my body.

ਜੋ ਤਨ ਰਤੇ ਰਬ ਸਿਉ ਤਿਨ ਤਨਿ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥੫੧॥

Jo ṯan raṯe rab si▫o ṯin ṯan raṯ na ho▫e. ||51||

Those bodies which are imbued with the Lord - those bodies contain no blood. ||51||

-----
So if you approach seva imbued with love and devotion to Waheguru Ji, then essentially your body contains no "blood". This I believe can be applied to seva of SGGSJ.  If you approach it with devotion and with thoughts only of Waheguru, then there is no chance of impurity. But the blood spoken of in this shabad, I do not believe is even speaking of physical blood, but the "blood of greed" which is mentioned further down on same page:

ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਸਭੋ ਰਤੁ ਹੈ ਰਤੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਤੰਨੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥

Ih ṯan sabẖo raṯ hai raṯ bin ṯann na ho▫e.

This body is all blood; without blood, this body could not exist.

ਜੋ ਸਹ ਰਤੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਤਿਤੁ ਤਨਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਰਤੁ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥

Jo sah raṯe āpṇe ṯiṯ ṯan lobẖ raṯ na ho▫e.

Those who are imbued with their Lord, do not have the blood of greed in their bodies.

-----
More Evidence??

Page 2, Line 11
ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਾ ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਭਾਣੇ ਕਿ ਨਾਇ ਕਰੀ ॥
Ŧirath nāvā je ṯis bẖāvā viṇ bẖāṇe kė nā▫e karī.
If I am pleasing to Him, then that is my pilgrimage and cleansing bath. Without pleasing Him, what good are ritual cleansings?
 

More Evidence that it's cleanliness of the soul/mind and NOT the body which Waheguru Ji is concerned with??
 

ਭਰੀਐ ਹਥੁ ਪੈਰੁ ਤਨੁ ਦੇਹ ॥

Bẖarī▫ai hath pair ṯan ḏeh.

When the hands and the feet and the body are dirty,

ਪਾਣੀ ਧੋਤੈ ਉਤਰਸੁ ਖੇਹ ॥

Pāṇī ḏẖoṯai uṯras kẖeh.

water can wash away the dirt.

ਮੂਤ ਪਲੀਤੀ ਕਪੜੁ ਹੋਇ ॥

Mūṯ palīṯī kapaṛ ho▫e.

When the clothes are soiled and stained by urine,

ਦੇ ਸਾਬੂਣੁ ਲਈਐ ਓਹੁ ਧੋਇ ॥

Ḏe sābūṇ la▫ī▫ai oh ḏẖo▫e.

soap can wash them clean.

ਭਰੀਐ ਮਤਿ ਪਾਪਾ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ॥

Bẖarī▫ai maṯ pāpā kai sang.

But when the intellect is stained and polluted by sin,

ਓਹੁ ਧੋਪੈ ਨਾਵੈ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ॥

Oh ḏẖopai nāvai kai rang.

it can only be cleansed by the Love of the Naam.

-----

Finally although there are many passages that take away our thoughts of body cleanliness being what matters, and also points of useless rituals but there is NOT EVEN ONE SINGLE shabad which condemns menstruation as impure or unclean! 

THIS IS WHAT OUR ONLY GURU SGGSJ says on the issue and should be final!

Outside of that you are free to do or not do as you want... if you don't personally want to do seva at that time, then well you may as well go the whole way and not touch food in your house etc. either.  Food preparation is where cleanliness and purity matter most actually. Brahamin concept of this prohibit women from even touching the kitchen during this time... and the woman is isolated until she finishes lest she make the whole home impure. (reference Laws of Manu).

[CdnSikhGirl]

Also ....about Impurity.... 

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥
Salok mėhlā 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

ਜੇ ਕਰਿ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਮੰਨੀਐ ਸਭ ਤੈ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
Je kar sūṯak mannī▫ai sabẖ ṯai sūṯak ho▫e.
If one accepts the concept of impurity, then there is impurity everywhere.

ਗੋਹੇ ਅਤੈ ਲਕੜੀ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕੀੜਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
Gohe aṯai lakṛī anḏar kīṛā ho▫e.
In cow-dung and wood there are worms.

ਜੇਤੇ ਦਾਣੇ ਅੰਨ ਕੇ ਜੀਆ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
Jeṯe ḏāṇe ann ke jī▫ā bājẖ na ko▫e.
As many as are the grains of corn, none is without life.

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
Pahilā pāṇī jī▫o hai jiṯ hari▫ā sabẖ ko▫e.
First, there is life in the water, by which everything else is made green.

ਸੂਤਕੁ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਰਖੀਐ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਪਵੈ ਰਸੋਇ ॥
Sūṯak ki▫o kar rakẖī▫ai sūṯak pavai raso▫e.
How can it be protected from impurity? It touches our own kitchen.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਏਵ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਉਤਾਰੇ ਧੋਇ ॥੧॥
Nānak sūṯak ev na uṯrai gi▫ān uṯāre ḏẖo▫e. ||1||
O Nanak, impurity cannot be removed in this way; it is washed away only by spiritual wisdom. ||1||

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:

ਮਨ ਕਾ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਹਵਾ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਕੂੜੁ ॥
Man kā sūṯak lobẖ hai jihvā sūṯak kūṛ.
The impurity of the mind is greed, and the impurity of the tongue is falsehood.

ਅਖੀ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਪਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਅ ਪਰ ਧਨ ਰੂਪੁ ॥
Akẖī sūṯak vekẖ▫ṇā par ṯari▫a par ḏẖan rūp.
The impurity of the eyes is to gaze upon the beauty of another man's wife, and his wealth.

ਕੰਨੀ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਕੰਨਿ ਪੈ ਲਾਇਤਬਾਰੀ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
Kannī sūṯak kann pai lā▫iṯbārī kẖāhi.
The impurity of the ears is to listen to the slander of others.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੰਸਾ ਆਦਮੀ ਬਧੇ ਜਮ ਪੁਰਿ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੨॥
Nānak hansā āḏmī baḏẖe jam pur jāhi. ||2||
O Nanak, the mortal's soul goes, bound and gagged to the city of Death. ||2||

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:

ਸਭੋ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਭਰਮੁ ਹੈ ਦੂਜੈ ਲਗੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
Sabẖo sūṯak bẖaram hai ḏūjai lagai jā▫e.
All impurity comes from doubt and attachment to duality.

ਜੰਮਣੁ ਮਰਣਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਭਾਣੈ ਆਵੈ ਜਾਇ ॥
Jamaṇ marṇā hukam hai bẖāṇai āvai jā▫e.
Birth and death are subject to the Command of the Lord's Will; through His Will we come and go.

ਖਾਣਾ ਪੀਣਾ ਪਵਿਤ੍ਰੁ ਹੈ ਦਿਤੋਨੁ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਸੰਬਾਹਿ ॥
Kẖāṇā pīṇā paviṯar hai ḏiṯon rijak sambāhi.
Eating and drinking are pure, since the Lord gives nourishment to all.

ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੁਝਿਆ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਸੂਤਕੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੩॥
Nānak jinĥī gurmukẖ bujẖi▫ā ṯinĥā sūṯak nāhi. ||3||
O Nanak, the Gurmukhs, who understand the Lord, are not stained by impurity. ||3||

[GurpreetKaur]

I just skipped through it cuz man it's too much to read and I am tired lol. But I will say accidents do happen, no matter how much protection ( diva cups) you use.  And about women becoming granths, they can become after 50. Most of the high avastha people are old anyway lol. 

I am super conscious during my month and no matter what I am using, my brain always go hope everything is okay lol. I have seen some videos on diva cup long time ago and some women were not very happy with it lol. Birth control makes you gain weight and other problems too, I don't know how I will survive after marriage lol. 

[GurpreetKaur]

21 hours ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

No that was not a joke. That was called being rude.  You were insinuating that my husband must be scared of me (to what? not keep me in my place?)  Yes I am offended by it not because of feminism but because I love my husband and would never do anything to hurt him. 

Believe it or not, your joke showed your chauvinism.  You like to keep calling me feminist... well there you have it. You are a chauvinist. Because your "joke" supposes that women being in any way out of the submissive role, must mean the husband is whipped and "scared" of his wife. I am well aware of the derogatory term "p____ whipped" and know thats what you were getting at.  I dont see how marriage has to be one or the other. Both of us are equal in terms of who is in control. Nobody is whipped and nobody is scared of the other. 

This is an over reaction.. If your comment about men wanting "puppy" as a wife was a joke then this is nothing. Plus you being in Military add up to the joke too, since they are strict. Lol

[CdnSikhGirl]

19 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

I just skipped through it cuz man it's too much to read and I am tired lol. But I will say accidents do happen, no matter how much protection ( diva cups) you use.  And about women becoming granths, they can become after 50. Most of the high avastha people are old anyway lol. 

I am super conscious during my month and no matter what I am using, my brain always go hope everything is okay lol. I have seen some videos on diva cup long time ago and some women were not very happy with it lol. Birth control makes you gain weight and other problems too, I don't know how I will survive after marriage lol. 

Think of it this way... what if you have SGGSJ in your own home? Are you going to ignore needs of SGGSJ for a few days every month?

By the way if you are that heavy that you worry about leaks that much, see a doctor LOL. That's not normal! And you can always double up with a pad too for the first bit till you gain trust in the diva cup! 

Anyway the above shabads give the answer... too bad you are willing to read what Singhs post telling you what to do and that you are impure or unclean, but you won't read what Gurbani has to say on this issue! 

For me I will follow Gurbani (not to mention the fact that there is no rule prohibiting women at all from doing this!)  You are free to follow whatever you want, just make sure its Sikhi you are really following and not cultural or other religion's taboos.  For me, seva is about devotion, not ritualistic rules of impurity. Waheguru does not care about these bodies. Gurbani says they are false... If menstruation were impure, Waheguru would never have created it as a natural function that would limit humans from seva when our whole existence as humans IS to realize God and merge back with the light. 

I posted my views and what Gurbani says on it. That's all I can do.  You will believe what you want... btw I spoke not only to a Giani about this (who is well known worldwide) but also had the answer through SGPC as well. Feel free to do what you want though... its your path your journey to God.

[GurpreetKaur]

3 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Think of it this way... what if you have SGGSJ in your own home? Are you going to ignore needs of SGGSJ for a few days every month?

By the way if you are that heavy that you worry about leaks that much, see a doctor LOL. That's not normal! And you can always double up with a pad too for the first bit till you gain trust in the diva cup! 

Anyway the above shabads give the answer... too bad you are willing to read what Singhs post telling you what to do and that you are impure or unclean, but you won't read what Gurbani has to say on this issue! 

I am not talking about purity.. But accidents do happen no matter whether we use diva cup or miracle cup. I don't know I just don't have confident to sit on a white sheet. Even on my third or fourth day I am conscious as hell, and leaks can happen by technical causes and anatomical reason with diva cups , it has nothing to do with the heavy Flow ( and no I don't run to doctor for every single thing) . If you are fine, go ahead and do what you wanna do but 95% women will say No.

I am not listening to Singhs, I am listening to what my mind is saying and one more woman is saying the same thing. You just take everything on a wrong side, no one is calling you impure just cuz you are on your period. If I don't take a shower, I don't feel clean and the same way when I know I am bleeding I don't feel clean either. 

[CdnSikhGirl]

I'd bet my life savings that 95% of women will not even mention to anyone that they are on their cycle, and just use adequate protection. Please dont make up erroneous statistics that are not true!!! I have asked many females here locally and not a single one stops seva because of that!  They just wear appropriate protection!

If ANY seva should be stopped due to uncleanliness it's Langar Seva because unclean food can mean food poisoning.  If it were really a cleanliness issue, then DDT would have said no langar seva during that time. But they didn't. The only restriction was on tabiya. Why? Has nothing to do with 'cleanliness' but instead prevailing ideas of women being seen as 'impure' because those attitudes came from the Hindu influence and laws of manu which saw it as a pollution. And even THEY prohibited women from touching food during that time, so at least they are practicing what they preach as far as uncleanliness.  There is no rule saying not to do langar seva though right?? If menstruation were really considered unclean do you think the Singhs who made that rule up, would want to eat food that could be contaminated?? 

Most people do not follow DDTs RM. Like I said, double up, wear both a tampon and a pad... wear two kacheras. Put a plastic underwear over that if you want. But don't let anything stop you from seva. 

The facts are this: 

1) There is no rule by Akal Takht to place restriction on menstruating Bibis
2) Gurbani speaks against such nonsense
3) The ONLY ones who place this restriction are DDT (that I know of), and likely because in olden days women didn't wear any sort of protection at all, so it no longer matters with modern hygiene products. 
4) If you are still worried, wear multiple layers of protection.

Anyway its your life. If you believe you are impure then go ahead and follow the DDT RM. Please dont ever have SGGSJ in your home though... as you will run into having to do seva of SGGSJ eventually, while you are menstruating. At home is no different than at Gurdwara... saroop of SGGSJ is our Guru no matter what.

 

 

[GurpreetKaur]

 

Anyway its your life. If you believe you are impure then go ahead and follow the DDT RM. Please dont ever have SGGSJ in your home though... as you will run into having to do seva of SGGSJ eventually, while you are menstruating. At home is no different than at Gurdwara... saroop of SGGSJ is our Guru no matter what.

^^

You only read what you wanna read. I said women don't become impure but some of us have hard time sitting on Tabya. If I don't feel clean without shower, that does not mean I am impure, I just don't feel clean. And your Guru teaches you so many other things too but you are stuck on equal rights and not focusing on other like letting go of Ego or seeing Vaheguroo in other people. You just see genders and that's it. Yiu can spend your time on having discussion about meditation, simran, or other spiritual stuff but no it's all about men and women. I will be honest, you contribute so much on this forum way more than any of us and if you start contributing on worthwhile things, we all can learn so much rather than arguing .

[CdnSikhGirl]

12 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

 

Anyway its your life. If you believe you are impure then go ahead and follow the DDT RM. Please dont ever have SGGSJ in your home though... as you will run into having to do seva of SGGSJ eventually, while you are menstruating. At home is no different than at Gurdwara... saroop of SGGSJ is our Guru no matter what.

^^

You only read what you wanna read. I said women don't become impure but some of us have hard time sitting on Tabya. If I don't feel clean without shower, that does not mean I am impure, I just don't feel clean. And your Guru teaches you so many other things too but you are stuck on equal rights and not focusing on other like letting go of Ego or seeing Vaheguroo in other people. You just see genders and that's it. Yiu can spend your time on having discussion about meditation, simran, or other spiritual stuff but no it's all about men and women. I will be honest, you contribute so much on this forum way more than any of us and if you start contributing on worthwhile things, we all can learn so much rather than arguing .

Please answer honestly, if you feel so unclean during that time, do you still cook food or do you stay away from the kitchen? 

I never said it was you who said impurity. You didnt read... I said the reason that certain groups restrict women during this time has MORE to do with prevailing attitudes towards impurity than it does with cleanliness. Because if it was only cleanliness than they would leave it up to the Singhni, and using appropriate protection, or else if they were so worried about uncleanliness, they would restrict women from the kitchen during this time as well. But they don't... If someone is unclean, they should not be cooking food especially for others! 

[Singh123456777]

38 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Please answer honestly, if you feel so unclean during that time, do you still cook food or do you stay away from the kitchen? 

I never said it was you who said impurity. You didnt read... I said the reason that certain groups restrict women during this time has MORE to do with prevailing attitudes towards impurity than it does with cleanliness. Because if it was only cleanliness than they would leave it up to the Singhni, and using appropriate protection, or else if they were so worried about uncleanliness, they would restrict women from the kitchen during this time as well. But they don't... If someone is unclean, they should not be cooking food especially for others! 

Why are you forcing your beliefs on somebody who has their own thinking? Your no better than the people you hate.

[samurai]

Nihang > marayada of tenth master

Nirmal panth> origins of tenth master 

sevapanthi> origins of tenth master

udasi> origins from baba sri chand

DDT is under nihung and nirmala...

origins of akaal takth marayada..?????unknown..

[CdnSikhGirl]

"This document is the Official Sikh Code of Conduct. There were a number of unsucessful attempts in the eighteenth century following the death of Guru Gobind Singh to produced an accurate portrayal of Sikh conduct and customs. These attempts were contradictory and inconsistent with many of the principles of the Gurus and were not accepted by the majority of Sikhs. Starting early this century in 1931 an attempt was made by the Shromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (S.G.P.C.) to produce a modern standard Rehit. These efforts involved the greatest Sikh scholars and theologians of this century who worked to produce the current version. The document produced has been accepted as the official version which provides guidelines against which all Sikh individuals and communities around the world can measure themselves. The Sikh Rehat Maryada is the only version authorized by the Akal Takht, the seat of supreme temporal authority for Sikhs. It's implementation has sucessfully achieved a high level of uniformity in the religious and social practices of Sikhism."

By following any other RM you are directly going against Akal Takht you know.... 

 

"Sikh Rehat Maryada is based on earlier codes , the earliest of them are:
Tanakhah-nama (Nasihat Nama) Samvat 1776 (1718-19 CE), ten years after the death of Guru Gobind Singh.
The Prahilad Rai Rehat-nama
Sakhi Rehat ki: About 1735 CE
Chaupa Singh Rehat-nama: 1740-1765 CE (1700 CE according to Piara Singh Padam). 
Desa Singh Rehat-nama: late 18th century
Daya Singh Rehat-nama"

All the parts were put to litmus test using Gurbani.... perhaps this is why some of the things that were not included in SRM that were in others, were left out maybe because they did not agree with Gurbani?  Certainly Gurbani speaks against any idea of blood or menstruation being impure or suggesting there should be any restriction or limitation because of it. So those who drafted SRM, took the earlier documents into consideration but ultimate litmus test was Gurbani. Also by comparing all of them it could be seen where things were common and where things may have been opinion or ideas of the author. And these things were removed so what they were aiming for was the common elements while disregarding anything that might disagree with Gurbani. 

 

 

[samurai]

8 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

The Sikh Rehat Maryada is the only version authorized by the Akal Takht, the seat of supreme temporal authority for Sikhs

where did you get this from...please provide references..

 

[samurai]

Nihang > marayada of tenth master

Nirmal panth> origins of tenth master 

sevapanthi> origins of tenth master

udasi> origins from baba sri chand

DDT is under nihung and nirmala...

origins of akaal takth marayada..?????unknown

 

please go trough sampradas and sgpc..