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Anand Karaj Maryada challenged


paapiman
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Since this is a Sikh forum , I assume responsibility to ensure its quality. Thus, I end my contribution in this thread with a Shabad .lets meditate upon it and internalize it, and realize the true Goal of our lives.  It is a beautiful shabad and tells us how one day we have leave our parents home and reach the house of True Lord one day, so lets prepare for that journey,  WJKK WJKF!

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਤਿਚਰੁ ਵਸਹਿ ਸੁਹੇਲੜੀ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਾਥੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ ਜਾ ਸਾਥੀ ਉਠੀ ਚਲਿਆ ਤਾ ਧਨ ਖਾਕੂ ਰਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ ਮਨਿ ਬੈਰਾਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਣੈ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਥਾਨੁ ੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਕੰਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਜੀਉ ਸਭਿ ਕਹਾਤਿ ॥ ਜਾ ਉਠੀ ਚਲਸੀ ਕੰਤੜਾ ਤਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਪੁਛੈ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਾਤ ॥੨॥ ਪੇਈਅੜੈ ਸਹੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਹੁਰੜੈ ਸੁਖਿ ਵਸੁ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਚਜੁ ਅਚਾਰੁ ਸਿਖੁ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਲਗੈ ਦੁਖੁ ੩॥ ਸਭਨਾ ਸਾਹੁਰੈ ਵੰਞਣਾ ਸਭਿ ਮੁਕਲਾਵਣਹਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਸਹ ਨਾਲਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥੨੩॥੯੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 50}

 

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ
Sirīrāg mėhlā 5.
Siree Raag, Fifth Mehl:

ਤਿਚਰੁ ਵਸਹਿ ਸੁਹੇਲੜੀ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਸਾਥੀ ਨਾਲਿ
Ŧicẖar vasėh suhelṛī jicẖar sāthī nāl.
As long as the soul-companion is with the body, it dwells in happiness.

ਜਾ ਸਾਥੀ ਉਠੀ ਚਲਿਆ ਤਾ ਧਨ ਖਾਕੂ ਰਾਲਿ ॥੧॥
Jā sāthī uṯẖī cẖali▫ā ṯā ḏẖan kẖākū rāl. ||1||
But when the companion arises and departs, then the body-bride mingles with dust. ||1||

ਮਨਿ ਬੈਰਾਗੁ ਭਇਆ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਦੇਖਣੈ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ
Man bairāg bẖa▫i▫ā ḏarsan ḏekẖ▫ṇai kā cẖā▫o.
My mind has become detached from the world; it longs to see the Vision of God's Darshan.

ਧੰਨੁ ਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਥਾਨੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
Ḏẖan so ṯerā thān. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Blessed is Your Place. ||1||Pause||

ਜਿਚਰੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਕੰਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਜੀਉ ਸਭਿ ਕਹਾਤਿ
Jicẖar vasi▫ā kanṯ gẖar jī▫o jī▫o sabẖ kahāṯ.
As long as the soul-husband dwells in the body-house, everyone greets you with respect.

ਜਾ ਉਠੀ ਚਲਸੀ ਕੰਤੜਾ ਤਾ ਕੋਇ ਪੁਛੈ ਤੇਰੀ ਬਾਤ ॥੨॥
Jā uṯẖī cẖalsī kanṯ▫ṛā ṯā ko▫e na pucẖẖai ṯerī bāṯ. ||2||
But when the soul-husband arises and departs, then no one cares for you at all. ||2||

ਪੇਈਅੜੈ ਸਹੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਤੂੰ ਸਾਹੁਰੜੈ ਸੁਖਿ ਵਸੁ
Pe▫ī▫aṛai saho sev ṯūʼn sāhurṛai sukẖ vas.
In this world of your parents' home, serve your Husband Lord; in the world beyond, in your in-laws' home, you shall dwell in peace.

ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਚਜੁ ਅਚਾਰੁ ਸਿਖੁ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਦੇ ਲਗੈ ਦੁਖੁ ॥੩॥
Gur mil cẖaj acẖār sikẖ ṯuḏẖ kaḏe na lagai ḏukẖ. ||3||
Meeting with the Guru, be a sincere student of proper conduct, and suffering shall never touch you. ||3||

ਸਭਨਾ ਸਾਹੁਰੈ ਵੰਞਣਾ ਸਭਿ ਮੁਕਲਾਵਣਹਾਰ
Sabẖnā sāhurai vañ▫ṇā sabẖ muklāvaṇhār.
Everyone shall go to their Husband Lord. Everyone shall be given their ceremonial send-off after their marriage.

ਨਾਨਕ ਧੰਨੁ ਸੋਹਾਗਣੀ ਜਿਨ ਸਹ ਨਾਲਿ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥੨੩॥੯੩॥
Nānak ḏẖan sohāgaṇī jin sah nāl pi▫ār. ||4||23||93||
O Nanak, blessed are the happy soul-brides, who are in love with their Husband Lord. ||4||23||93||

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he done f'ed up now

I really don't care if he is fed up... saying women have to be 'homely' subservient cowardly and obedient robots that men get to boss around and be 'assertive' with?? really!!!!??? And then try to justify it saying that's how it's supposed to be?  How would HE like being stuck in that homely, subservient H*LL!!!???

Seriously, is that what the male leading in the lavans is symbolizing? That the girl will become his mindless robot servant?  Because if so, I want my money back!!! LOL.

 

 

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I like her, you have to give her the credit, she took a stand on her beliefs. But Satkiran, Madame Jee. Watching your past posts since you post a lot. My concerns are, in every real relationships fights do happen, since you are vocal about NOT being a servant of anyone, you might say these things in the heat of moment, as obviously you think about it a lot. May not go down good with your husband. Have to watch your thoughts. Anyways, Happy Marriage. Good luck. Please don't reply, instead read it twice.

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I really don't care if he is fed up... saying women have to be 'homely' subservient cowardly and obedient robots that men get to boss around and be 'assertive' with?? really!!!!??? And then try to justify it saying that's how it's supposed to be?  How would HE like being stuck in that homely, subservient H*LL!!!???

Seriously, is that what the male leading in the lavans is symbolizing? That the girl will become his mindless robot servant?  Because if so, I want my money back!!! LOL.

 

 

I wrote he has done f.u.c.k.e.d up. I never wrote he is fed up lol

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Let's try to understand, what holding a Palla means, in light of Gurbani. Please have a look, at the below verses:

 

ਜਾ ਕੋ ਰੇ ਕਰਮੁ ਭਲਾ ਤਿਨਿ ਓਟ ਗਹੀ ਸੰਤ ਪਲਾ ਤਿਨ ਨਾਹੀ ਰੇ ਜਮੁ ਸੰਤਾਵੈ ਸਾਧੂ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਨਾ ॥

One who has good karma, grasps the Protection of the hem of the Saint's robe; in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, the Messenger of Death cannot threaten him.

ਹਿਰਦੈ ਚਰਣ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੋ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਾਂਧਿਓ ਪਾਲ ॥੨੩੮

With the Lord's lotus feet enshrined in his heart, Nanak has tied the Shabad, the Word of the True Guru, to the hem of his robe. ||2||7||38||

ਫੇਰੀ ਫੇਰੁ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ਕਬ ਹੀ ਏਕੁ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੰਧਿ ਪਾਲੈ ॥੨

He does not enter the cycle of reincarnation ever again; he keeps the One Word of the Shabad tied to the hem of his robe. ||2||

 

Holding the Palla of a Saint or of Gur-shabad means that one is seeking protection from them and one will follow them. 

If we hold Palla of Gur-shabad or of a Saint, it would be very absurd to make a claim that we are controlling them. How can a ordinary human control God or a Saint? Therefore, the analogy of person riding a chariot is against Gurmat. 

Similarly, in an Anand Karaj, the lady has been instructed by the Lord to hold the Palla of her husband and not the other way round. This clearly illustrates that the it is the duty of the husband to protect his wife and for the wife to be a faithful follower. 

Additionally, according to Sikh ethical values, a Sikh wife is suppose to look at her husband as a demi-God. This further clarifies, what holding a Palla means during Anand Karaj.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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^ Not likely!  I'm not anyone's doormat... faithful or otherwise... sorry.  And demi-God???!!!!! Give me a break! No human is worthy to be called a demi God... first of all there is only ONE God,... Waheguru.... and no human approaches that!  Secondly, men are not above women... sorry to burst your make egotistical thinking there Paapiman! You are just as human as every other human... and you aren't God over women... you don't get to 'Lord it' over women. 

 Sikhi gives both genders equality... one is not God over the other... you are seriously skewed in your thinking Paapiman! Go join Raagmala and hire a live in maid... that's what you are looking for! I'm sure you could pay a woman to worship you as a God if you paid her well enough. 

And the demi God thing... That's right out of Laws of Manu... not Sikhi! There is not one line in Gurbani which says men are Gods over women... 

Perfect example of Brahministic thinking that crept into Sikhi... 

And that one tuk you keep taking out of context, you can't do that.  And yes context very much is necessary, or else you lose the meaning of the shabad.  And if you could just take any line and twist it how you want, then we could make anything ok by Gurbani. 

Please stop denigrating women... and please stop making Sikhi look like it puts women into subservient inferior role when it doesn't.  Our Gurus worked hard to give women equality and you want to take it away and make women into domestic robots.  

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur
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When I go to india either this year or next year I will try to make videos of Sants/mahapurkhs/gyanis answering questions that the sangat here gives. Little bit like how you did the q and a with sant jagjit Singh harkowale. 

Great idea brother. Please do try to get hold of some Gyanis from Bhindran Taksal, if possible.

Bhul chuk maaf

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Satkirin,

You are very defensive about anything related to women even if it is not worth debating for. And then you have the habit of twisting everything according to your feminist agenda. For example, when someone mentioned how your husband is so tall, you immediately jumped at the moment to defend your height which you considered short by giving examples of how it is better to be short in combat etc etc . You somehow felt the need to defend it.  And then when giving the examples of palla, you somehow mentioned how you were actually in control of the pace of the lavan, your husband was the horse and you were the chariot rider. What was the need to defend it ?

It just shows that you get emotional when it comes to anything related to women issues, and you let it cloud your thinking. And thus, you have taken my words out of context.

You yourself say, that you are a man in womans body, maybe you are not able to understand it from a womans point of view ? if so , then how do you know what a woman wants ? My analysis comes after observing many women.

Here I will say it again, your women will love and respect you if you show masculine traits like responsibility , strength and leading most of the time. If men behave like sissies and bitches they will lose all respect from their women. Who agrees with me ?

And as for hiring a live in maid, I dont need one, if I am man enough in myself my lady will follow, if I slack off i will get constant shittar for sure and lose respect.

And this has nothing to do with Sikhi, its just human psychology.

 

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Satkirin,

You are very defensive about anything related to women even if it is not worth debating for. And then you have the habit of twisting everything according to your feminist agenda. For example, when someone mentioned how your husband is so tall, you immediately jumped at the moment to defend your height which you considered short by giving examples of how it is better to be short in combat etc etc . You somehow felt the need to defend it.  And then when giving the examples of palla, you somehow mentioned how you were actually in control of the pace of the lavan, your husband was the horse and you were the chariot rider. What was the need to defend it ?

It just shows that you get emotional when it comes to anything related to women issues, and you let it cloud your thinking. And thus, you have taken my words out of context.

You yourself say, that you are a man in womans body, maybe you are not able to understand it from a womans point of view ? if so , then how do you know what a woman wants ? My analysis comes after observing many women.

Here I will say it again, your women will love and respect you if you show masculine traits like responsibility , strength and leading most of the time. If men behave like sissies and bitches they will lose all respect from their women. Who agrees with me ?

And as for hiring a live in maid, I dont need one, if I am man enough in myself my lady will follow, if I slack off i will get constant shittar for sure and lose respect.

And this has nothing to do with Sikhi, its just human psychology.

 

No woman I know wants to be a doormat... sorry... and no woman I know would want to be bossed around by their husband, they'd sooner tell him to jump off a bridge if he expected her to be subservient follower and do whatever he demands. If you think by ordering women around they will love and respect you, then you will be sorely mistaken.  NOBODY likes being bossed around... that's just human psychology.  

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I have no idea about side to side 100 years ago,however what I do know is sikhs did lava around a havan. Read up on that. When did sikhs start doing laava around SatgurSatgur rather than the fire?.

 

CryCrystal

Bro, first master refused to take Lavan around fire. Maharaaj wrote mool mantar on some item and Master, along with Mata Sulakhani jee did lavan of that item. 

Bhul chuk maaf

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No one likes being bossed around, man or woman.  It is not consciously making or forcing someone to follow you or be subservient.

It is about raising oneself to such a level that the following by the wife is natural and smooth.

If a man is a leader, charismatic, hard worker, wise, care taker, rock solid in his emotions, clarity in his thoughts---> following will be natural

But if a man is bitchy, sissy, coward, too much emotional updowns, projects on his wife  --> wife will feel uneasy, for her it will be living with another woman. --> which will lead to frustration and dead bedroom syndrome ( not sikhi related)

You know how two women cannot live together in peace, constant fights and quarrels and emotional drama. Similarly, a feminine man and a woman wont have a healthy relationship.

A man needs to be a man. Period.

I know many women who wish that they had to work less, that their husband were more in charge of decision making.  Some women are very feminine, some inbetween, and some masculine. So going back to my original point that I made previously, it is a balance of energies.

Masculine + Feminine = Perfect Balance

Masculine + Masculine = Clash for power, unless adjustments happen

Feminine + Feminine = frustration on both sides

Lingam & Yoni have to work in perfect unison to create a life.

Two yonis or Two lingams together cannot do shit...similarly on a subtler level feminine + masculine personalities have to work in a unison.

Any other male input on this issue or you guys dont want the headache lol ?

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ragmaala
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You are missing the point that women are born natural leaders too... women are not born to be subservient followers... some women are followers, some men are followers. Some men are leaders, some women are leaders.  Two people with leadership qualities CAN very much work together... there does not have to be one person lording it over the other.  

I do not want someone making all my decisions.  I am perfectly capable.  I'm not some simple minded, incapable, cowardly, submissive, person.  In fact my career is in the military... if I were what you term the normal feminine I'd lose my career pretty quickly!  Nor would I ever WANT to be those qualities.  I don't think anyone does!

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Right, women in military are tough, assertive, leaders & dominant.  Now in that scenario, the husband would often accomodate and assume a lesser assertive role, more of a follower role, to keep things calm & avoid shit storms from happening.

Now the question is how does the woman feel in that dynamics, in which she is the leader & husband is a follower ?

Are women okay with their husbands being the followers ?

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Women in military are tough as they are given that sort of training. Also, we have to remember that men, on average, in military will be more tougher and stronger than women.  

We cannot take one occupation and generalize it for all other women.

Most likely, on average, men are more tougher, stronger, emotional stable, handle stress better, make better decisions, etc, than women.

Bhul chuk maaf

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Paapiman go pound sand.... It's obvious your opinion of women.  Your input doesn't count because it's so skewed you are out in left field! Now men make better decisions too? What do you think women are? Dogs???  I pray you never want to get married because that poor girl won't know what she's in for... You certainly do consider yourself superior to us don't you? You actually have a superiority complex and I think you need professional help. 

Raagmala, neither one of us is a follower exclusively. Sometimes he does sometimes I do. It's called compromise. I don't know why you think one person has to have their way all the time. Why one person has to dominate the other exclusively while the other is a doormat exclusively. We both work together as a team where we both have input. Sometimes I compromise sometimes he does. Neither one of us tries to suppress the other or dominate them into submission into doing what we want.  Love is not about dominating someone.  Love is about bringing what talents you have into the relationship and using those talents in a positive way.  Someone who truly loves someone will never want to dominate or control them. Or see them as inferior and demand they be seen as a Demi God over the other person ( as Paapiman wants) if all u want is to dominate someone then you don't want a loving marriage. Both spouses want to be loved and 'served' and both spouses want to have input on decisions equally. It's not a corporation with a CEO and subordinate. I don't know why u think it has to be all or nothing.  

 

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Are women okay with their husbands being the followers ?

Context - Sign of Kaljug. 

 

ਰੰਨਾ ਹੋਈਆ ਬੋਧੀਆ ਪੁਰਸ ਹੋਏ ਸਈਆਦ ॥

Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.

ਸਈਆਦ  also means Moorakh (fool) or Mureed (follower)

 

Please listen to Gyani jee (after 23.00 min):

http://www.gurbaniupdesh.org/multimedia/04-Katha/13-Giani Thakur Singh Ji (Patiala Wale)/Katha Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji/CD13(Ang1191-1353)/1083-Ang-1241-Pankti-09.mp3

 

According to the context (Parikaran), this tuk is talking about the negative signs in Kaljug, as it is evident from the other tuks in the Mahalla. Therefore, one can safely conclude that women being advisers, is not considered a great idea in Sikhism.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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Context - Sign of Kaljug. 

 

ਰੰਨਾ ਹੋਈਆ ਬੋਧੀਆ ਪੁਰਸ ਹੋਏ ਸਈਆਦ ॥

Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.

ਸਈਆਦ  also means Moorakh (fool) or Mureed (follower)

 

Please listen to Gyani jee (after 23.00 min):

http://www.gurbaniupdesh.org/multimedia/04-Katha/13-Giani Thakur Singh Ji (Patiala Wale)/Katha Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji/CD13(Ang1191-1353)/1083-Ang-1241-Pankti-09.mp3

 

According to the context (Parikaran), this tuk is talking about the negative signs in Kaljug, as it is evident from the other tuks in the Mahalla. Therefore, one can safely conclude that women being advisers, is not considered a great idea in Sikhism.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Mate stop being a freak. So are you saying that men being hunters is wrong in kalyug as hunting should be done by women?

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