Number of enemy forces at the battle of Chamkaur

[paapiman]

Bro, at Chamkaur Sahib, Maharaaj had 40 or so Singhs and the opposing army had 1 million men.

Bhul chuk maaf

Tenth master himself has stated in Gurbani that there were "Day (some word like this) Lakh" forces, which mean 10 lakhs (1 million).

Bhul chuk maaf

[Koi]

The battle of Chamkaur. 

[amardeep]

Tenth master himself has stated in Gurbani that there were "Day (some word like this) Lakh" forces, which mean 10 lakhs (1 million).

Bhul chuk maaf

There wasn't one million Mughals. The Sri Zafarnama is written in poetry and the number 1 million is used as a rhetorical device to suggest that the Singhs were heavily outnumbered.

[dalsingh101]

There wasn't one million Mughals. The Sri Zafarnama is written in poetry and the number 1 million is used as a rhetorical device to suggest that the Singhs were heavily outnumbered.

Yes, and there is even a surviving contemporary document from the Moghuls that explicitly mentions 700 soldiers being sent to that conflict. You shouldn't take things so literally. 

Edited September 23, 2015 by dalsingh101

[kdsingh80]

As far as mughals are concerned they lost most of their power against Marathas and rajpoots. Punjab was the least of the mughals worries. As sher has correctly said Aurangzeb spent 25yrs fighting Marathas and 30yr war led by durgadas rathore who's soldier trainer guru gobind Singhji. However there were others who tormented Aurangzeb as well. Bundelas and other rajputs fought him as well. Like I said many times, Sikh history can barely compare to one single rajput clan..

Who was ruling North India before muslims arrived , just answer this question

[asingh10]

lol

[paapiman]

There wasn't one million Mughals. The Sri Zafarnama is written in poetry and the number 1 million is used as a rhetorical device to suggest that the Singhs were heavily outnumbered.

Bro, what is your source? There were forces of Pahari Rajay too, along with Mughal forces.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Yes, and there is even a surviving contemporary document from the Moghuls that explicitly mentions 700 soldiers being sent to that conflict. You shouldn't take things so literally. 

Bro, can you please present that source? 700 soldiers might have been sent initially or as an reinforcement to the existing forces.

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

Sikhs were kicking.. not really as Marathas did the honours even in Punjab. Maratha forces led by Raghunath Rao conquered Punjab in 1758. They won battles at Sirhind Lahore and finally Peshawar. They chased Afghans out including Abdali's son Taimur. high time you start giving some F-A-C-T-S. Sikhs ended muslim rule Hahahah Fact is no Mughal emperor ever bothered to fight Sikhs himself while Aurangzeb fought against Marathas for 25 years !!

See you have learned nothing from our discussion on this so-called conquering of Panjab by the Marhattas.

[dalsingh101]

Bro, can you please present that source? 700 soldiers might have been sent initially or as an reinforcement to the existing forces.

Bhul chuk maaf

So you think 700 wee sent in one order and another 999300 in others. lol!

I don't even think Moghuls had a Million soldiers btw.

 

Paapiman, for someone so uninformed you have way too much strong opinions, you should spend more time researching before you open your mouth. 

[paapiman]

So you think 700 wee sent in one order and another 999300 in others. lol!

I don't even think Moghuls had a Million soldiers btw.

Bro, Daas used the word "might". There is a possibility that hundreds of thousands were already there. Can you please provide the source, which states 700? Are you sure that they were regular forces? Were they any kind of special forces? 

There were three subas near Anandpur Sahib - Lahore, Sarhind and Delhi. On top of that, there were the forces of hill chiefs and other local forces in Punjab. 

Do you seriously think, that they did not have 1 million forces in total?

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

Bro, Daas used the word "might". There is a possibility that hundreds of thousands were already there. Can you please provide the source, which states 700? Are you sure that they were regular forces? Were they any kind of special forces? 

There were three subas near Anandpur Sahib - Lahore, Sarhind and Delhi. On top of that, there were the forces of hill chiefs and other local forces in Punjab. 

Do you seriously think, that they did not have 1 million forces in total?

Bhul chuk maaf

Do you seriously think they would send a million soldiers for 40 people. 

 

Lets say they got the numbers wrong and they thought it was a thousand people instead. Even then, do you seriously reckon a million soldiers would be mobilised to combat them?

Do you not get the concept of poetic uses of language?

[paapiman]

Do you seriously think they would send a million soldiers for 40 people. 

Lets say they got the numbers wrong and they thought it was a thousand people instead. Even then, do you seriously reckon a million soldiers would be mobilised to combat them?

It is possible that 1 million men were used by the enemy for this task (Starting from surrounding the fort of Anandpur). Maybe 1 million were not sent at once, but in total, it is a realistic possibility.

We also have to remember that deadly warriors such as Baba Udai Singh jee, Baba Alam Singh jee Nachna, Baba Bachitar Singh jee, etc, had already killed hundreds of thousands of enemy forces, before Maharaaj had reached Chamkaur Sahib. It is possible that the enemy commanders must have asked for additional reinforcements (assessing the amount of damage), in order to capture Satguru jee.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Do you not get the concept of poetic uses of language?

Bro, Daas's guess is that 1 million in mentioned in Sri Zafarnama Sahib jee, which is written in Farsi. A scholar of Persian language will have to be consulted to get his expert opinion on those verses.

There are expressions in languages, which can be taken both, literally and metaphorically. Like, for example the expression in Punjabi, "Nak Kateya" (nose cut off - metaphorically it means, lost honor). A native speaker will be able to decipher the expression, when used, based on the context. 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

There wasn't one million Mughals. The Sri Zafarnama is written in poetry and the number 1 million is used as a rhetorical device to suggest that the Singhs were heavily outnumbered.

Yes, and there is even a surviving contemporary document from the Moghuls that explicitly mentions 700 soldiers being sent to that conflict. You shouldn't take things so literally. 

Brothers, let's move to the topic below.

Amardeep paaji - Can you please move all the posts above, related to the battle of Chamkaur, to the thread below.

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/17086-battle-of-chamkaur-numbers/#comment-153917

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[dalsingh101]

 

The following extracts from Ahkam-i-Alamgiri have been translated into English by Dr Kirpal Singh. These relate to the life of Guru Gobind Singh:

“Report was received based on Nanak worshipper Gobind, reaching from twelve kos from Sirhind and sending reinforcement of seven hundred horsemen with arsenal and beseiging the Guru in the haveli of Chamkaur and killing of his two sons and his other companions, and arrest of one of his sons alongwith his mother"

700 soldiers enough to beseige a Haveli and 40 men inside it.

There probably would have been a few more hangers -on. Besides, I bet you a pussy like you couldn't even handle 3 to 1 odds against some armed and trained soldiers, yet you belittle these much higher odds.  

[asingh10]

How many of you are aware of the kind of intellectual subversion that is going on in western academic circles ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabir#Criticism

That Wendy Doniger lady is calling Kabir Das ji a misogynist, she is a well know western indologist who has been working overtime to undermine other indic traditions as well. And amidst other things, she and cohorts are working to whitewash muslim imperialism in india.

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/interview/scholar-audrey-truschke-aurangzeb-is-a-severely-misunderstood-figure/article7648723.ece

Shouldn't we  put more effort into refuting such things instead of incessantly boasting and showing off bravado on the internet like maha-moorkhs & manda-buddhis ?

Edited September 24, 2015 by asingh10

[dalsingh101]

Shouldn't we  put more effort into refuting such things instead of incessantly boasting and showing off bravado on the internet like maha-moorkhs & manda-buddhis ?

I don't think we should because they actually thrive off the controversy and attention. It's our own reaction to them that makes them valid. I've worked in and know academia, the 'scholar' that gets the most banders jumping up and down with their theories is the one that gets most respect within western academic circles.  That's why the above approach is counterproductive. 

Instead we should use simple, intelligent, straight-forward explanations of the nature of western academia and its relationship with  western cultural hegemony and teach Sikh children this whilst growing up. Like with dinner table discussions.  Otherwise we'll be forever embroiled in every little contentious theory they put out, and we've got bigger fish to fry.

Problem is when we get thick as 5hit  (or uneducated) Sikh parents who can barely understand what is going on themselves leave alone inform their children. Others don't really care, a fair percentage of our people are solely interested in making money - nothing else. 

[Guest]

I don't think we should because they actually thrive off the controversy and attention. It's our own reaction to them that makes them valid. I've worked in and know academia, the 'scholar' that gets the most banders jumping up and down with their theories is the one that gets most respect within western academic circles.  That's why the above approach is counterproductive. 

Instead we should use simple, intelligent, straight-forward explanations of the nature of western academia and its relationship with  western cultural hegemony and teach Sikh children this whilst growing up. Like with dinner table discussions.  Otherwise we'll be forever embroiled in every little contentious theory they put out, and we've got bigger fish to fry.

Problem is when we get thick as 5hit  (or uneducated) Sikh parents who can barely understand what is going on themselves leave alone inform their children. Others don't really care, a fair percentage of our people are solely interested in making money - nothing else. 

vast majority of parents don't know anything though, & won't. 

 

you can't base your strategy off the best possibility only the worst. 

 

my personal thoughts are that if communists were talking bad about gurus in 70s 80s & we cooked them & their queen like corn. 

 

why treat melechas whom chankya said were more base in conduct than 1000 chandalas any different? We should look to end their bloodlines, but through our collective republican government & army. 

 

sikh regiment has given us this opportunity by surrounding Delhi in 2010/12

[dalsingh101]

^^

 

nutjob

[paapiman]

 

The following extracts from Ahkam-i-Alamgiri have been translated into English by Dr Kirpal Singh. These relate to the life of Guru Gobind Singh:

“Report was received based on Nanak worshipper Gobind, reaching from twelve kos from Sirhind and sending reinforcement of seven hundred horsemen with arsenal and beseiging the Guru in the haveli of Chamkaur and killing of his two sons and his other companions, and arrest of one of his sons alongwith his mother"

700 soldiers enough to beseige a Haveli and 40 men inside it.

Sher jee, it mentions the word "reinforcement". What about the existing forces, which were pursuing Maharaaj? 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Koi]

Sher, when the guru has said 'das lakh', kavi santokh Singh ji has said 'ik nau lakh', and many other mahapurkh have confirmed the same, that is proof enough for us. You have a twisted agenda anyway, so believe whatever the hell you want. 

[Guest True hindu]

The kaaba was a temple dedicated to lord shiva. Eveybody was a hindu for thousands of years. Christianity comes from the word krishna. Hindus have invented everything in this world. Email, zero, maths was all invented by hindus.

[SAadmin]

The kaaba was a temple dedicated to lord shiva. Eveybody was a hindu for thousands of years. Christianity comes from the word krishna. Hindus have invented everything in this world. Email, zero, maths was all invented by hindus.

As a sikh as per our living guru guidance, we supposed to give all credit to akaal purkh vahiguru/paratma who is creator of all beings. But if you want to play these silly RSS hindu right wing nationalist games. Let me remind of you following points:

1. Hindu word itself is not ancient is british creation explaining demographics of people, its not a term to describe dharam.

2. Sikh term is more ancient term in hindu, Hindu term is no where to found in vedic scriptures, you will find sikh-shisya term in old literature not hindu

3. Who was shiva dedicated to? Akaal purkh vahiguru(One paratma), he is servant of akaal purkh vahiguru, from non dual absolute advaita consciousness of lord shiva and consciouness of blade of grass is one and same...he is not seen as special as there is only one non dual absolute reality.

4. If you meant krishna personality limited to five elements, its subjected to death/change. So in fact as i mentioned from absolute point of view- krishna consciousness and simple blade of grass consciousness is one and same. This is according to your absolute advaita school of thought that there is no special personality of five elements so who is really krishna then? whats so special about krishna in absolute stand point? Because labels do not even exist.

I encourage you to rise above from all petty labels. hindu rss nationalist right wing agenda just like i would encourage every right wing nationalist out there (be it hindu, sikh, christian, islam, buddhist) for own peace of mind sake and realize real you is non dual one undivided spirit who binds us all and there are no labels there.

[kdsingh80]

http://www.sikhnet.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11359

 

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