Number of enemy forces at the battle of Chamkaur

[kdsingh80]

So you think 700 wee sent in one order and another 999300 in others. lol!

I don't even think Moghuls had a Million soldiers btw.

 

Paapiman, for someone so uninformed you have way too much strong opinions, you should spend more time researching before you open your mouth. 

Mughals had estimate of 4.4 million soldiers

 

I agree with people here that 1 million clearly looks exageration. To finish 40 men any army general will send soldiers in hundreds or thousands rather than million. Infact 1 million army has more chance of destructing itself than serving any purpose, they require huge amount of food and water

here is an interesting account of Shivaji 's father defeating 200000 mughal and Adil shah soldiers with mere 10 thousand

Battle of Bhatvadi[edit]

The battle of Bhataudi was fought in 1624 near Ahmednagar, Maharashtra between forces of Shahaji, Nizam and the combined forces of Mughals and Adilshahi Sultanates. Mughal Emperor Jahangir's son, Prince Khurram ( later on EmperorShah Jahan left his father in hostility and took asylum with Shahaji Raje Bhonsle of Nizamshahi.^{[citation needed]} To defeat Shahaji and rescue Khurram, Jahangir had ordered his commander-in-chief Lashkar Khan to finish off Nizamshahi. Accordingly, Lashkar Khan with an army of 120,000 (1.2 lakhs) marched on Ahmednagar. The Adilshahi Sultanate had also agreed to help the Mughals. Adilshahi army amounted to no less than 80,000 men. Thus, a massive army of 200,000 (2 lakhs) walked on Ahmednagar. On the other hand, Shahaji had an army of 20,000 at his disposal. Shahaji had assigned 10,000 of these, the task of protecting and defending the Ahmednagar fort and town. The remaining 10,000 were with Shahaji.

Such a huge army required huge amount of food and water. Thus, both Mughal and Adil forces were encamped on the bank of the Mehkari River. It flowed North-South. The river had a dam to conserve water, as Ahmednagar experienced water shortage. However, during this period, there had been good amount of rainfall. The river had abundant water and was filled to the brim. Shahaji came up with a brilliant idea. With utmost care, cracks were developed in the dam. It was night time; the whole Mughal and Adil encampments were fast asleep. Suddenly, water started gushing out of the dam from each of the cracks. Mughals and Adils were clueless about what was happening. It was as if a huge wall of irate water was running over the Mughals and Adils. Everyone started running helter-skelter to save their lives. There was chaos and confusion. The whole encampment was flooded with water. Clothes, rations, arms, ammunitions, cannons and cattle everything drowned. Dead elephants were seen floating in the water. Many were taken as prisoners. As many as 25 renowned Mughal and Adil chiefs were imprisoned by Shahaji. It was a huge win for Shahaji, after which Shahaji became very well-known throughout India.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahaji

 

 

[paapiman]

 

Mughals had estimate of 4.4 million soldiers

I agree with people here that 1 million clearly looks exageration. To finish 40 men any army general will send soldiers in hundreds or thousands rather than million. Infact 1 million army has more chance of destructing itself than serving any purpose, they require huge amount of food and water

Bro, there is a possibility that 1 million was not sent, in one go. We have to take into account the hundreds of thousands that were being killed by Satguru jee and his Singhs. Another possibility is that, not the entire contingent of 1 million attacked Satguru jee at Chamkaur. Some troops might have been placed to cordon off the city to prevent escape of any Singh and in other areas. Even, during 1984 attack on the Golden temple, not all forces were attacking at Amritsar. Troops were deployed to other parts of Punjab too.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited September 26, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Other points to consider:

-  Aurengzeb was, most likely aware that Satguru jee was not an ordinary person.

-  Mughal commanders had defected to Satguru jee.

-  Previous defeats, by Satguru jee.

Considering the above points, it should not be surprising that Aurengzeb would have mobilized a very large army to capture Satguru jee.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Can someone please provide audio reference, of any Saint talking about numbers, at the battle of Chamkaur?

Thanks

Bhul chuk maaf

[Koi]

Can someone please provide audio reference, of any Saint talking about numbers, at the battle of Chamkaur?

Thanks

Bhul chuk maaf

Listen to the Katha of Sant Waryam Singh Ji (Ratwara Sahib), or the Suraj Prakash katha done by anyone (Giani Harbhajan Singh Ji, Giani Inderjeet Singh Ji, Sikh2Inspire(English)).

[Koi]

The kaaba was a temple dedicated to lord shiva. Eveybody was a hindu for thousands of years. Christianity comes from the word krishna. Hindus have invented everything in this world. Email, zero, maths was all invented by hindus.

...bugger off

[chatanga1]

     Mughals had estimate of 4.4 million soldiers

Seems like a lot KD. Not long after Chamkaur Sahib battle, the army of islam combined to fight Baba Banda Bahadur at Sirhind, but their strength was estimated at 60,000. This force included imperial soldiers from Lahore, Sirhind, and Delhi. Also there were a large number of ghazis who came to fight the infidels.

[paapiman]

 

Bro, have a look below:

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[chatanga1]

so thats telling us the Moghals had 400,000 soldiers with militias or ghazis numbering about 4 million.

 

[amardeep]

Just leave it pappiman. There wasn't 1 million Mughal soldiers fighting the Guru at Chamkaur. If there was one million why would the Mughals send additionally 700?? Does'nt make sense, - these 700 would be useless in the ocean of 1 million soldiers.

[paapiman]

Just leave it pappiman. There wasn't 1 million Mughal soldiers fighting the Guru at Chamkaur. If there was one million why would the Mughals send additionally 700?? Does'nt make sense, - these 700 would be useless in the ocean of 1 million soldiers.

Bro, what do you think are the numbers from your research? Please do include the Hill chief troops too.

Have you read the account of Allah Yaar Khan Jogi Saab (not completely sure about his name)? He has talked about this battle too.

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

Allah Yaar Khan Yogi was not an eye witness. There probably was a few thousand enemy soldiers (combined Pahari forces and Mughal) at the siege of Anandpur and maybe half of these pursued the Guru further onwards to Chamkaur. But not one million!!

[Koi]

Respectfully disagree. 

We have the zafarnama of Guru Sahib, the works of Kavi santokh Singh ji, and the bachan of many other mahapurkh. And these all verify 1 million! Why is that not enough proof? 

[paapiman]

Is it possible that Satguru jee and his Singh Soormay could not annihilate a few thousand soldiers?

Here is a link to the katha where Gyani jee states that Baba Uday Singh jee Maharaaj, Baba Jeevan Singh jee Maharaaj and some other Singhs exterminated close to 250,000 soldiers. Please listen after 4.00 min.

http://www.gurbaniupdesh.org/multimedia/04-Katha/13-Giani Thakur Singh Ji (Patiala Wale)/Katha Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji/CD01(Ang0001-0018)/0060-Ang-0013-Pankti-01.mp3

Bhul chuk maaf 

Edited September 28, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

According to Sri Zafarnama Sahib jee, an army of 1 million (10 Lacs) attacked the Singhs. 

Quote

ਗੁਰਸਨਹ ਚਿਹ ਕਾਰੇ ਚਿਹਲ ਨਰ ॥ ਕਿ ਦਹ ਲਕ ਬਰਾਯਦ ਬਰੋ ਬੇਖ਼ਬਰ ॥੧੯॥
गुरसनह चिह कारे चिहल नर ॥ कि दह लक बरायद बरो बेख़बर ॥१९॥
How could forty famished persons fight in the battlefield, on whom ten lakh soldiers made a sudden attack.19.

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://www.sridasam.org/dasam?Action=Page&p=2265

 

Are there any alternative interpretations of the above verses?

 

Bhul chuk maaf 

Edited September 28, 2015 by paapiman

[dalsingh101]

Are there any alternative interpretations of the above verses?

Yes, the one we discussed before and you keep ignoring. That this looks like a literary device to convey  the large discrepancy between the numbers in the opposing sides. It is not literally recording statistical information. 

This is not unusual in poetry at all. How comes you don't get this simple point? 

[paapiman]

Yes, the one we discussed before and you keep ignoring. That this looks like a literary device to convey  the large discrepancy between the numbers in the opposing sides. It is not literally recording statistical information. 

This is not unusual in poetry at all. How comes you don't get this simple point? 

Bro, Daas is looking for a specific answer, based on Persian language expertise. Saying that it is a literary device, is not very convincing, especially if other evidence is present.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited September 28, 2015 by paapiman

[dalsingh101]

Bro, Daas is looking for a specific answer, based on Persian language expertise. Saying that it is a literary device, is not very convincing, especially if other evidence is present.

Bhul chuk maaf

What, evidence like the imperial order I posted?

 

To think that the Moghuls sent a million soldiers to fight 40 says more about your imagination than anything else. I don't think you realise how significant it is to have a million soldiers just turn up somewhere. 

[paapiman]

What, evidence like the imperial order I posted?

Bro, the evidence provided by Koi paaji.

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

Okay cool, show me any Mughal source that states 250.000 of their forces were wiped out in those battles. Those numbers are quite significant so the Mughal courtiers and scribes must have written it down somewhere.

Edited September 28, 2015 by amardeep

[dalsingh101]

Amardeep, I think some of these people are clowns who just like typing.

 

There is no way they are going to even attempt any serious khoj apart from 'flannah baba/mahpurakh said it'; 'I read it in some book [or on the internet] that I can't remember' etc. etc.

But they'll be fully convinced of their own misconceptions because that is what they want to believe. Evidence or research doesn't matter to them.  

Moghuls didn't even send a million soldiers to deal with Banda Singh who caused mass havoc and had large numbers with him. 

 

Then there is the matter of the way phudhoos start talking all convinced and with authority when  they haven't even bothered to look through any of the quality research that's been put out in recent years, especially with contemporary evidence that has been translated.

None of us know everything, but for God's sake, at least have an informed opinion instead of letting your whims and imagination run riot!

Edited September 28, 2015 by dalsingh101

[paapiman]

Hypothetical situation: A asks B for a source - B answers that he heard from a scholar - A asks for the historical source - B finds the historical source - A says that he needs a contemporary historical source - B finds the contemporary source - A says that it is a tampered source

Sangat jee - Do we seriously have that much time in life to find the source of the source of the source? We need to trust people too. It is the responsibility of the people, who disseminate information, to verify the authenticity of the material.

Satguru jee (the creator of billions of stars) fighting against a million people - Is it really that unbelievable?

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

See, that is disingenuous; we aren't talking about how many people satguru can fight, we are talking about how many soldiers were sent by the moghuls. When we do this factor in contemporary evidence and use some common sense. The logistics of sending a million soldiers to Panjab - whilst the Moghuls were already struggling in the south doesn't make sense. 

Try using your brain and visualising a million people around a small makeshift fort. If that many soldiers and hanger ons came, there would have been mass looting and rape going on. 

 

Anyway, enough said. 

[paapiman]

Allah Yaar Khan Yogi was not an eye witness. 

Bro, but did he mention anything about numbers?

Thanks

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Bhai Sahib Bhai Vir Singh jee had talked to an old Ragi, who had met a Mughal soilder. This soldier had participated in the battle of Chamkaur. Please listen to the Gyani Kulwant Singh jee below. This will give us an idea of the huge amount of enemy forces at this battle.

Please start listening after 48:50 min:

 

Bhul chuk maaf