Arsh1469 Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) (Deleted) Edited September 24, 2022 by Arsh1469 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dalsingh101 Posted August 29, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 From Grewal and Habib, Persian sources of Sikh history: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dalsingh101 Posted August 29, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 Some context to the above: 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 29, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 9 hours ago, Arsh1469 said: Mughals had an on going war with the Maratha which was priority one (2 - 3 milliom Mughal Soldiers died in it Can you please provide a source for the above? Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsh1469 Posted August 29, 2021 Report Share Posted August 29, 2021 1 hour ago, paapiman said: Can you please provide a source for the above? Bhul chuk maaf Niccolao Manucci wrote first hand accountes of the Mughal empire and he says almost a 100,000 people were diying every year to the Marathas. The war lasted 27 years getting us 2.7 million deaths. (He says this in Storia do Mughal India volume 6 Page 96)https://archive.org/details/storiadomogororm04manu/page/96/mode/2up 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 30, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 11 hours ago, Arsh1469 said: Niccolao Manucci wrote first hand accountes of the Mughal empire and he says almost a 100,000 people were diying every year to the Marathas. The war lasted 27 years getting us 2.7 million deaths. (He says this in Storia do Mughal India volume 6 Page 96)https://archive.org/details/storiadomogororm04manu/page/96/mode/2up Thanks for the reference. How many Maratha soldiers died in the same time period? Do you have any idea? Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsh1469 Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 1 hour ago, paapiman said: Thanks for the reference. How many Maratha soldiers died in the same time period? Do you have any idea? Bhul chuk maaf The Maratha had a smaller army so it will definitely be less. I Estimate a few hundred thousand but it in all honesty this is a wild guess 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 30, 2021 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 1:44 AM, Arsh1469 said: and the hill raja didn't have a huge army Do you know, how many troops did Hill Rajas had? Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsh1469 Posted August 30, 2021 Report Share Posted August 30, 2021 22 minutes ago, paapiman said: Do you know, how many troops did Hill Rajas had? Bhul chuk maaf No I don't but they were definitely smaller than the Mughal Army. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sajjan_Thug Posted August 31, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 On 9/28/2015 at 5:05 AM, paapiman said: Bro, Daas is looking for a specific answer, based on Persian language expertise. Saying that it is a literary device, is not very convincing, especially if other evidence is present. Bhul chuk maaf Waheguru Ji The Great Gurus Of The Sikhs page 154 "... the word used to describe the number of Mughal soldiers is "Dahlakh". It is a Persian word and historians translate it meaning as "infinite" or "Ten Lakh"." 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dalsingh101 Posted August 31, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Sajjan_Thug said: Waheguru Ji The Great Gurus Of The Sikhs page 154 "... the word used to describe the number of Mughal soldiers is "Dahlakh". It is a Persian word and historians translate it meaning as "infinite" or "Ten Lakh"." When you read Persian stuff, it seems majorly flowery and exaggerated in tone compared to what Panjabis are used to. They have a whole other way of expressing themselves. That might explain it? Plus we know at least a few people fought through the cordon around Chamkaur like palit puttar Zorowar Singh, if tens of thousands had surrounded the house of the zamindar, I don't think that would have been possible. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GurjantGnostic Posted September 2, 2021 Report Share Posted September 2, 2021 On 8/31/2021 at 6:50 AM, dalsingh101 said: When you read Persian stuff, it seems majorly flowery and exaggerated in tone compared to what Panjabis are used to. They have a whole other way of expressing themselves. That might explain it? Plus we know at least a few people fought through the cordon around Chamkaur like palit puttar Zorowar Singh, if tens of thousands had surrounded the house of the zamindar, I don't think that would have been possible. Has any of your study of persian sources pertaining to Sikhi lead you to any much older documents from the time of Cyrus the Great, or anything pertaining to Zora or Babylon things like his? Or pre Cyrus? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dalsingh101 Posted September 3, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 3, 2021 21 hours ago, GurjantGnostic said: Has any of your study of persian sources pertaining to Sikhi lead you to any much older documents from the time of Cyrus the Great, or anything pertaining to Zora or Babylon things like his? Or pre Cyrus? I haven't gone into it that deep. I remember coming across an old translation of Bahar Danesh (because Kahn Singh Nabha thought parts of CP came from there), and reading the REALLY verbose, flowery language within (which wasn't my cup of tea). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSD Posted December 23, 2021 Report Share Posted December 23, 2021 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seattlesingh Posted December 26, 2021 Report Share Posted December 26, 2021 Hope this provides some perspective 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsh1469 Posted September 24, 2022 Report Share Posted September 24, 2022 On 8/29/2021 at 7:46 AM, dalsingh101 said: From Grewal and Habib, Persian sources of Sikh history: Hmm. I came back to this post for this image and if I understand correctly this is Aurangzeb who has sent 700 Calvary and some artillery. The letter is addressed to Wazir Khan so we have no ideas how many soldiers came from Sirhand and the soldiers from the Hindu Raja plus Lahore Subha and maybe other Subhas. Probably not 1,000,000 but it must be way larger then 700. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsh1469 Posted September 24, 2022 Report Share Posted September 24, 2022 Less then 10,000 wouldn’t make sense as in the First Battle of Anandpur according to Macauliffe the Subehdar of Delhi under instructions of Aurangzeb dispatched an army of 10,000 under two generals. Painde Khan and Din Beg. Later the army of the Hill Rajas joined them who must have also been in the thousands. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsh1469 Posted September 24, 2022 Report Share Posted September 24, 2022 The following is a translation of comments by Bhai Vir Singh ji on this subject (Shri Kalgidhar Chamatkar, Volume 1, Page 92):"The term 'Deh Lak' (Ten Lakh or a million) [in Zafarnama] probably signifies 'countless'. In the same Zafarnama, the Guru has used the term 'Be Shumar' (countless) in another stanza. But if one were to place an estimate to represent 'countless', they will probably not fall much short [of a million]. You have to take into account that siege of Anandpur Shaib included forces of Governers of Sirhind and Lahore. It also included soldiers of Bai Dhar Kings. In addition there were non-regular soldiers of Bai Dhar Kings which used to be called 'Chhera or Vaheer'. Then there was the army marching from Delhi which joined others at Chamkaur Sahib. The royal armies also attracted 'Vaheer' as they marched. Then there was 'Mulkhaya (general mob)' which started gathering for looting. The news that Anandpur had fallen was attracting mobs from far and away to loot the escaping inhabitants of Anandpur Sahib. The famous Sikh Ragi Bhai Heera Singh ji (1879-1926) used to talk about a Muslim man who was part of 'Mulkhaya'. The Muslim man claimed that he could not get any closer than 12 to 14 miles of Chamkaur Sahib because of all the armies, 'Vaheer' and 'Mulkhaya' in the area. Once you think about the aforementioned, its easy to accept the number 'Deh Lak' (million)". I didn’t write this up but the point still stands. Who are we to doubt Bhai Vir Singh. Sure it might not be Das Lakh but it sure as hell was close. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsh1469 Posted September 24, 2022 Report Share Posted September 24, 2022 @paapiman @dalsingh101 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dalsingh101 Posted September 24, 2022 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 24, 2022 3 hours ago, Arsh1469 said: @paapiman @dalsingh101 Look the point was about literal interpretations. The number of enemy soldiers was probably a few thousand at most. Still, against 40 people - this is serious odds. Remember some people even managed to fight their way through the cordon around Chamkaur - like palit puttar Zorowar Singh. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arsh1469 Posted September 24, 2022 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 24, 2022 10 hours ago, dalsingh101 said: Look the point was about literal interpretations. The number of enemy soldiers was probably a few thousand at most. Still, against 40 people - this is serious odds. Remember some people even managed to fight their way through the cordon around Chamkaur - like palit puttar Zorowar Singh. It can not be few thousand. They had sent 10,000 who were defeated earlier. Guru Ji described Chamkaur as countless. It must a whole lot more than what the Sikhs had faced before. Bhai Vir Singh says you couldn’t get 12 - 14 miles of Chamkaur thanks to not just the soldiers but the amount of civilians who joined them. That is 19 - 22 KM. To me it doesn’t seem like a few thousand. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arsh1469 Posted September 24, 2022 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 24, 2022 1 minute ago, Arsh1469 said: As per Ain-i-Akbari an army of the Faujdar of Sirhind was 40,900 infantry and 9225 cavalry, an army of the Faujdar of Kashmir was 28,175 infantry and 3382 cavalry and an army of the Subahdar of Lahore was 3,35,450 infantry and 38,150 cavalry. Note that the numbers were much higher under the Emperor Aurangzeb. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Arsh1469 Posted September 24, 2022 Popular Post Report Share Posted September 24, 2022 10 hours ago, dalsingh101 said: Remember some people even managed to fight their way through the cordon around Chamkaur - like palit puttar Zorowar Singh. Could you speak more to this. Which historical source mentions this? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted September 28, 2022 Report Share Posted September 28, 2022 On 9/24/2022 at 6:54 PM, Arsh1469 said: Could you speak more to this. Which historical source mentions this? Do a search on it. I posted a bunch of stuff on palit puttar Zorowar Singh previously. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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