Why did the Gurus NOT write the katha/viakya of Guru Granth Sahib Ji?

[das]

Could anyone please share their thoughts on why Sikh Gurus did NOT write the katha/vikhaya of Guru Granth Sahib Ji? It would have saved the panth ALL the debates revolving around the meanings of Guru Sahib? After-all Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the teasure and what's the use of treasure without the key (meanings)?

 

[paapiman]

Someone had requested Satguru jee to document the arths of Gurbani. Maharaaj had replied by saying:

ਆਪੁ ਆਪੁਨੀ ਬੁਧਿ ਹੈ ਜੇਤੀ ॥ 

 

Reference:

http://searchgurbani.com/baanis/chaupai_sahib

 

Srimaan 108 Amar Shaheed Baba Mani Singh jee Maharaaj and Srimaan 108 Amar Shaheed Baba Deep Singh jee Maharaaj (founders of Taksals) heard the arths* and the oral tradition followed. The closest (or the same) teeka to the oral tradition should be the Amir Bhandar teeka, written by Gyani Kirpal Singh jee. There might be more.

* - There were 48 Singhs in total, who heard the arths.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited October 19, 2015 by paapiman

[amardeep]

Could anyone please share their thoughts on why Sikh Gurus did NOT write the katha/vikhaya of Guru Granth Sahib Ji? It would have saved the panth ALL the debates revolving around the meanings of Guru Sahib? After-all Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the teasure and what's the use of treasure without the key (meanings)?

 

There is a book named Praya Granth Sahib Ji Ka attributed to Bhai Mani Singh that has the meanings of a large section of the Guru Granth Sahib.

Apart from that, many SInghs were schooled in the arths as Papiman has described above which has gone in lineages down to the present. Regarding Gurgaddi I think there are a substantial amount of evidence in 18th century litterature to showcase that the Adi Granth was given Gurgaddi alongside the Khalsa.

[paapiman]

There is a book named Praya Granth Sahib Ji Ka attributed to Bhai Mani Singh that has the meanings of a large section of the Guru Granth Sahib.

Bro, how can one get the above teeka?

Thanks

Bhul chuk maaf

[das]

Before we further dive deep into it; let me state some of the facts first:

• Gurugaddi was given to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. No Dehdhari Guru was appointed.
• Most of the Gurus orally did arths of the Bani included in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. 
• Prominent Sikhs during that time have incorporated those arths in their respective teekas.
• Yes, any Spiritual knowledge is supposed to be absorbed or translated by individuals as per their own level/mind/budh. [ ਆਪੁ ਆਪੁਨੀ ਬੁਧਿ ਹੈ ਜੇਤੀ ॥ ]

Now, that being said, the question remains that if Gurus could write the Dargahi Bani then why did They Choose not to write the arths?

Let's take another example which does not involve any religious scripture. e.g Someone visited a never ending treasure and now wish everyone to get benefit from it. He prepared a map which describes that the Source and Destination are the same and some other instructions regarding why/how/what one should try to get to the treasure but does not dictate the exact co-ordinates. Isn't his intention was to help all or he is trying to point out some missing element without which the knowledge of real map might not be understood.?

Edited October 20, 2015 by das

[paapiman]

Satguru jee (fifth master) declared that Bhai Saab Bhai Gurdas jee's Bani (Vaaran and Kabit) is the key to SSGGSJ. Maharaaj gave us the key to the treasure too.

Dhan Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

It is a good question Das - especially considering that Guru Maharaj had more than a 100 scholars and poets present who could have written such a full commentary. I think the answer is in keeping the Khalsa strong and vital possesing the arths through oral lineages. Thats why the katha was given orally instead of in a book form.. Many 19th (and maybe also 18th century - im not sure) talks about the key role of Bhai Mani Singh as an investigator of arths and how he was given them orally by the Guru and then passed onto his students..

Paapiman: It has been published, im not sure if you can find it online. The published version is called something like "Puratan Teeka"... I've read the arth on mool mantar, - it goes into depth about Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva etc. etc.. its quite deep...

[paapiman]

It is a good question Das - especially considering that Guru Maharaj had more than a 100 scholars and poets present who could have written such a full commentary. I think the answer is in keeping the Khalsa strong and vital possesing the arths through oral lineages. Thats why the katha was given orally instead of in a book form.. Many 19th (and maybe also 18th century - im not sure) talks about the key role of Bhai Mani Singh as an investigator of arths and how he was given them orally by the Guru and then passed onto his students..

Bro, is there any evidence present to suggest that Sikhs lost teekas, while leaving Anandpur fort?

 

.Paapiman: It has been published, im not sure if you can find it online. The published version is called something like "Puratan Teeka"... I've read the arth on mool mantar, - it goes into depth about Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva etc. etc.. its quite deep...

Thanks Paaji.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[das]

......

 

Edited October 21, 2015 by das

[amardeep]

There are still two commentaries extant in manuscript form from the Kavi darbaar. One is also called the Praya Sri Guru Granth Sahib written by Kavi Kirat Singh and other is by Kavi Gurdas SIngh called the Praya Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ka. There might have been more from the Kavi Darbar which were lost

Edited October 20, 2015 by amardeep

[ibrute]

 

Could anyone please share their thoughts on why Sikh Gurus did NOT write the katha/vikhaya of Guru Granth Sahib Ji? It would have saved the panth ALL the debates revolving around the meanings of Guru Sahib? After-all Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the teasure and what's the use of treasure without the key (meanings)?

 

Hi das, few points;

1. Sri Guru granth Sahib Jee = Waheguru (God), so that means Gyaan(knowledge) in SGGS is infinite, how can its explanation be put on paper and written in language which has its limitations. But since Guru Sahib is Waheguru Himself and can do anything, and put this gyaan on paper. Now Guru sahib will write exactly the 100% true meanings on the Gurbani, not near 100% but exactly the truth as it is.

2. Now Jaap sahib says Waheguru Jee is "Nirbhujh", "Assujh", we have the meanings is front of us, Does our "Buddhi" understands what it says, looks hard to me.

3. So, why Guru Sahib did not write when Guru Sahib could, its like saying if 2 year old ask how babies are made, even if the person is Phd. in biology and know all, won't make the child understand the actual reality. So it ends up saying stork put babies in mother lap, and that is not the truth, even if Guru sahib want to tell oust exact thing we won't understand.

4. Also its my understading that Waheguru intention is for the human to struggle and find his own answers at his pace. Also I think gurbani goal to "bhujanna" not just memorizing the meanings. I am just rambling, your thoughts.

[das]

Hi das, few points;

1. Sri Guru granth Sahib Jee = Waheguru (God), so that means Gyaan(knowledge) in SGGS is infinite, how can its explanation be put on paper and written in language which has its limitations.

Based upon your explanation, even the rachna/creation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji could NOT be achieved because HE cannot be explained. But yet Bani was written on paper?

But, you're going in right direction that the rigid interpretation of the Truth (never changing) in this world of Maya (always changing) could not be achieved. Now the question is rigid interpretation is also required to reap the benefits; otherwise it is just the exercise of The Mind??

If we say, we need to dive deep within to find the Truth, then it's not possible to actually see the truth because of the limitation of mind. Some people say that self-introspection is possible, but how could we self-introspection with the mind. Reading and saying that truth is within vs realizing/waking THAT within are different concepts.

[das]

Sometimes English translations just loose the essence of the shabad.

ਸਲੋਕ  ਮਹਲਾ  ੨  ॥
ਗੁਰੁ  ਕੁੰਜੀ  ਪਾਹੂ  ਨਿਵਲੁ  ਮਨੁ  ਕੋਠਾ  ਤਨੁ  ਛਤਿ  ॥
ਨਾਨਕ  ਗੁਰ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਮਨ  ਕਾ  ਤਾਕੁ  ਨ  ਉਘੜੈ  ਅਵਰ  ਨ  ਕੁੰਜੀ  ਹਥਿ  ॥੧॥

---------------------------

ਮਹਲਾ  ੨  ॥
ਸਿਫਤਿ  ਜਿਨਾ  ਕਉ  ਬਖਸੀਐ  ਸੇਈ  ਪੋਤੇਦਾਰ  ॥
ਕੁੰਜੀ  ਜਿਨ  ਕਉ  ਦਿਤੀਆ  ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ  ਮਿਲੇ  ਭੰਡਾਰ  ॥
ਜਹ  ਭੰਡਾਰੀ  ਹੂ  ਗੁਣ  ਨਿਕਲਹਿ  ਤੇ  ਕੀਅਹਿ  ਪਰਵਾਣੁ  ॥
ਨਦਰਿ  ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ  ਕਉ  ਨਾਨਕਾ  ਨਾਮੁ  ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ  ਨੀਸਾਣੁ  ॥੨॥
---------------------------

ਰਾਗੁ  ਗਉੜੀ  ਪੂਰਬੀ ਮਹਲਾ  ੫
ੴ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ  ॥
ਕਿਨ  ਬਿਧਿ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਗੁਸਾਈ  ਮੇਰੇ  ਰਾਮ  ਰਾਇ  ॥
ਕੋਈ  ਐਸਾ  ਸੰਤੁ  ਸਹਜ  ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ  ਮੋਹਿ  ਮਾਰਗੁ  ਦੇਇ  ਬਤਾਈ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
ਅੰਤਰਿ  ਅਲਖੁ  ਨ  ਜਾਈ  ਲਖਿਆ  ਵਿਚਿ  ਪੜਦਾ  ਹਉਮੈ  ਪਾਈ  ॥
ਮਾਇਆ  ਮੋਹਿ  ਸਭੋ  ਜਗੁ  ਸੋਇਆ  ਇਹੁ  ਭਰਮੁ  ਕਹਹੁ  ਕਿਉ  ਜਾਈ  ॥੧॥
ਏਕਾ  ਸੰਗਤਿ  ਇਕਤੁ  ਗ੍ਰਿਹਿ  ਬਸਤੇ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਬਾਤ  ਨ  ਕਰਤੇ  ਭਾਈ  ॥
ਏਕ  ਬਸਤੁ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਪੰਚ  ਦੁਹੇਲੇ  ਓਹ  ਬਸਤੁ  ਅਗੋਚਰ  ਠਾਈ  ॥੨॥
ਜਿਸ  ਕਾ  ਗ੍ਰਿਹੁ  ਤਿਨਿ  ਦੀਆ  ਤਾਲਾ  ਕੁੰਜੀ  ਗੁਰ  ਸਉਪਾਈ  ॥
ਅਨਿਕ  ਉਪਾਵ  ਕਰੇ  ਨਹੀ  ਪਾਵੈ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਸਰਣਾਈ  ॥੩॥
ਜਿਨ  ਕੇ  ਬੰਧਨ  ਕਾਟੇ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰ  ਤਿਨ  ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ  ਲਿਵ  ਲਾਈ  ॥
ਪੰਚ  ਜਨਾ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਮੰਗਲੁ  ਗਾਇਆ  ਹਰਿ  ਨਾਨਕ  ਭੇਦੁ  ਨ  ਭਾਈ  ॥੪॥
ਮੇਰੇ  ਰਾਮ  ਰਾਇ  ਇਨ  ਬਿਧਿ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਗੁਸਾਈ  ॥
ਸਹਜੁ  ਭਇਆ  ਭ੍ਰਮੁ  ਖਿਨ  ਮਹਿ  ਨਾਠਾ  ਮਿਲਿ  ਜੋਤੀ  ਜੋਤਿ  ਸਮਾਈ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ਦੂਜਾ  ॥੧॥੧੨੨॥

---------------------------------
HOW THE TRUE GURU IS FOUND: Aka: How to unlock what Guru is really telling us.

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ  ਮਹਲੁ  ੧  ॥
ਧਾਤੁ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਫੁਨਿ  ਧਾਤੁ  ਕਉ  ਸਿਫਤੀ  ਸਿਫਤਿ  ਸਮਾਇ  ॥
ਲਾਲੁ  ਗੁਲਾਲੁ  ਗਹਬਰਾ  ਸਚਾ  ਰੰਗੁ  ਚੜਾਉ  ॥
ਸਚੁ  ਮਿਲੈ  ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ  ਹਰਿ  ਜਪਿ  ਏਕੈ  ਭਾਇ  ॥੧॥
ਭਾਈ  ਰੇ  ਸੰਤ  ਜਨਾ  ਕੀ  ਰੇਣੁ  ॥
ਸੰਤ  ਸਭਾ  ਗੁਰੁ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਮੁਕਤਿ  ਪਦਾਰਥੁ  ਧੇਣੁ  ॥੧॥  ਰਹਾਉ  ॥
ਊਚਉ  ਥਾਨੁ  ਸੁਹਾਵਣਾ  ਊਪਰਿ  ਮਹਲੁ  ਮੁਰਾਰਿ  ॥
ਸਚੁ  ਕਰਣੀ  ਦੇ  ਪਾਈਐ  ਦਰੁ  ਘਰੁ  ਮਹਲੁ  ਪਿਆਰਿ  ॥
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ  ਮਨੁ  ਸਮਝਾਈਐ  ਆਤਮ  ਰਾਮੁ  ਬੀਚਾਰਿ  ॥੨॥
ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ  ਕਰਮ  ਕਮਾਈਅਹਿ  ਆਸ  ਅੰਦੇਸਾ  ਹੋਇ  ॥
ਕਿਉ  ਗੁਰ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਤ੍ਰਿਕੁਟੀ  ਛੁਟਸੀ  ਸਹਜਿ  ਮਿਲਿਐ  ਸੁਖੁ  ਹੋਇ  ॥
ਨਿਜ  ਘਰਿ  ਮਹਲੁ  ਪਛਾਣੀਐ  ਨਦਰਿ  ਕਰੇ  ਮਲੁ  ਧੋਇ  ॥੩॥
ਬਿਨੁ  ਗੁਰ  ਮੈਲੁ  ਨ  ਉਤਰੈ  ਬਿਨੁ  ਹਰਿ  ਕਿਉ  ਘਰ  ਵਾਸੁ  ॥
ਏਕੋ  ਸਬਦੁ  ਵੀਚਾਰੀਐ  ਅਵਰ  ਤਿਆਗੈ  ਆਸ  ॥
ਨਾਨਕ  ਦੇਖਿ  ਦਿਖਾਈਐ  ਹਉ  ਸਦ  ਬਲਿਹਾਰੈ  ਜਾਸੁ  ॥੪॥੧੨॥
------------------------

ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਹਰਿ ਰਸ ਭੋਗਣੇ ਸੰਤ ਸਭਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ॥

===================================

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that: Real Saints are must for the breaking the highest level. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is NOT the replacement of Sants. In-fact, there are many references in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji where is clear that Guru and Sant (real Sant) both are required and often inter-changeable (isn't this just a name tag). And this might be the reason that Guru did not write down the arths/translations of Guru Granth Sahib Ji: because TRUTH never changes but the seeker is always on change and therefore seeker needs a customized understanding as per their current level and that where Sants come to the picture. 

Sant is the one who has the key to unlock the treasure. So, how could we play-down-the-importance-of-Sants. I agree that these days a lot of not-so-high and some even fake Sants are present and these are the only type of Sant these days youngsters are exposed to. So, naturally the youngsters will be against these so-called Sants but this is leading our young generation towards the point where Muslims are: Katarpanthi and loosing the essence.

Moreover, I've seen another brand of people who say that puratan Sants were perfect and today there are none and therefore they just do ninda of today's Saints. It is correct to say that there are less Sants (real) these days but we often forget that there is also the downwall of the real seekers. Why would we expect a Phd teachers in excess whereas there are very less students? After-all Sants come to help the Souls on the path of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (Shabad marg).

So, bottom line is: when we're in lower grades e.g say in kindergarten then it IS okay to take lessons from lower grade teacher (keeping in mind that this is not the destination) and keep moving and eventually once we're ready, then we'll get the real understanding of Bani. Isn't it foolish to argue/blame/debate regarding the lack of true teachers or fake-teachers without relizing where we're standing on the path? These days, we put great stress on debates regarding rIght (MY version) vs wrong (OTHER's version.)

 

Edited October 21, 2015 by das

[Ragmaala]

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that: Real Saints are must for the breaking the highest level.

EXACTLY!!!!!   spot on

[Ragmaala]

 

Moreover, I've seen another brand of people who say that puratan Sants were perfect and today there are none and therefore they just do ninda of today's Saints. It is correct to say that there are less Sants (real) these days but we often forget that there is also the downwall of the real seekers. Why would we expect a Phd teachers in excess whereas there are very less students? After-all Sants come to help the Souls on the path of Sri Gruru Granth Sahib Ji (Shabad marg).

So, bottom line is: when we're in lower grades e.g say in kindergarten then it IS okay to take lessons from lower grade teacher (keeping in mind that this is not the destination) and keep moving and eventually once we're ready, then we'll get the real understanding of Bani. Isn't it foolish to argue/blame/debate regarding the lack of true teachers or fake-teachers without relizing where we're standing on the path? These days, we put great stress on debates regarding rIght (MY version) vs wrong (OTHER's version.)

 

I agree veer ji. I am also guilty of this kind of thinking, I often tell myself there is no pooran sant these days, but the fault lies within me, I am not even at that level to receive the darshan of pooran sant.

[ibrute]

Based upon your explanation, even the rachna/creation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji could NOT be achieved because HE cannot be explained. But yet Bani was written on paper?

I don't know much and apologize in advance but I think SGGS Jee gives us guidelines, basic attributes of God, what to do, what not to do, whom to look up to like sants, importance of sangat, like that. Along with is the main component which is missing in this conversation that is simran on waheguru mantra, As simran goes to higher stages, buddhi goes more subtle and hidden arths of the gurbani emerges. 

To find Waheguru in Guru granth sahib jee, we need to have mind of purest level which can be attained by simran. Only then we can "Bhujj" him.

Mind which understands arths have no access to soul, and we have to merge our soul(drop) to waheguru(ocean), and accessing of our soul is only done by simran, as far as I know.

Complete sant necessity arises when the sikh reaches higher stages of simran, and need guidance from other Gursikh who himself tread through similar paths to reach ultimate destination sachkhand. Thoughts?

 

[Singh123456777]

How did the Sants get to the stage of helping other gursikhs out? That's the real question! If we need a sant to help us then who helped the sant? I know of some examples like when sant baba nand Singh made sant baba mahaharnam Singh Ji's teacher but there are other Sants who never needed any teacher. So how did the Sants who only needed guru Ji get to the level that they are?

[Singh123456777]

I do not discredit the Sants(I'm really pro sant) but in my honest opinion if somebody actually sees the true guru in Guru Granth Sahib Ji maharaj then they really don't need the help of anybody except guru Ji. For example we can do simran with or without a Mala. Some people do swear by using a Mala while others don't. It's just a minor aid/tool like how n30 veer says. Same thing with a sant. A sant is an aid. Some people need a sant like sant baba nand Singh ji and some people don't need the aid of a sant like sant baba Nidhan Singh langar sahib wale.

Doing darshan of Sants are a great thing and I myself do darshan as well.

[Singh123456777]

Just keep progressing in your bhagti and read gurbani and try to contemplate on it and guru Ji will help you if your heart has that sincere intense conviction towards maharaj Ji.

[paapiman]

This might be great article on the question: Do we need a mediator to understand Gurbani?

http://nanaksarkaleran.com/mediatorgurbani

 

Some Highlights:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited October 21, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Can someone please confirm that Srimaan Sant Baba Attar Singh jee Mastuanay wale and Srimaan Sant Baba Harnam Singh jee Rampurkheray wale, did not adopt a guru* (like Srimaan 108 Sant Baba Nand Singh jee Kaleranwale) did?

Thanks

* - the one who physically gives Gurparsaad - obviously cannot be equated to Satguru jee (SSGGSJ).

Bhul chuk maaf

[Ragmaala]

Here is a little analogy that I learnt in katha from Giani Thakur Singh Ji. I find it really neat.

God & Guru are all pervading, and present everywhere.  Lets say if they are like fire.Then pooran sants are like a red hot iron sitting in that fire for a long time.

One can move his hand through fire without much burn, but if one holds iron in his hand he is surely to get burnt.

Pooran Sants are like concentrated form of Gods power who come to this earth from time to time for a short period of time, and take away millions of devotees with them when they go back to Sachkhand.

[Guest]

What exactly is a Sant?

is a Sant someone who was trained in a specific interpretation and then declared able to continue teaching that interpretation? Meaning one jatha would only ever declare someone trained to their line of thought a Sant.

or is a Sant someone who has spiritually awakened? 

In my opinion the first definition would better be called an instructor etc. But the first definition seems to be who majority here call a Sant.... someone trained in a specific interpretation or jatha to the point they can then impart that knowledge to others with that same interpretation.  

I always equated a Sant to mean someone who through their own spiritual awakening learned the truth. Or is this better termed a Brahamgyani?  This definition is how most religions define a saint. So it's a bit confusing... 

[Ragmaala]

Sant is a person who is in a internal meditative state 24/7 and always meditating on Naam.  jina saas giraas na visre...

[paapiman]

What exactly is a Sant?

is a Sant someone who was trained in a specific interpretation and then declared able to continue teaching that interpretation? Meaning one jatha would only ever declare someone trained to their line of thought a Sant.

or is a Sant someone who has spiritually awakened? 

In my opinion the first definition would better be called an instructor etc. But the first definition seems to be who majority here call a Sant.... someone trained in a specific interpretation or jatha to the point they can then impart that knowledge to others with that same interpretation.  

I always equated a Sant to mean someone who through their own spiritual awakening learned the truth. Or is this better termed a Brahamgyani?  This definition is how most religions define a saint. So it's a bit confusing... 

Guest jee - Please read the article below. It is a long read, but if you are really interested, it might be helpful.

http://nanaksarkaleran.com/qualities-puran-sant

 

Bhul chuk maaf