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Bhagat Translates Pauri 38 of Jap ji Sahib - ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥


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In Pauri 38 of Jap ji, Guru Nanak Dev ji describes the advanced meditation process using the analogy of a goldsmith.

I was told it was an analogy of a blacksmith not goldsmith?

 

It's interesting that Guru ji uses this analogy as the final step (pauri) of Japji Sahib. 

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1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

I was told it was an analogy of a blacksmith not goldsmith?

 

It's interesting that Guru ji uses this analogy as the final step (pauri) of Japji Sahib. 

It is goldsmith for sure....."Suniyar".     blacksmith is "lohar"  I think.

Was it the hammer and anvil mentions that made you associate "blacksmith"?

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24 minutes ago, Lucky said:

It is goldsmith for sure....."Suniyar".     blacksmith is "lohar"  I think.

Was it the hammer and anvil mentions that made you associate "blacksmith"?

I think I read it somewhere years ago, but you are right. 

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Thanks for sharing that. Very interesting. For many many years i've wondered why the Japji Sahib does'nt end with the description of Sach Khand (pauri 37) before the Salok begins. I've always wondered the meanings of the Jat Pahara Dhiraj Suniar and why they were put in there between Sachkkhand and the conculding Salok as the Sachkhand verses would be a natural climax of the Japji. But your exegesis explains that :) Thanks for that.

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great explanation lucky ji !

is bindu chakra the same thing as soma chakra ?

[Swami Rama Himalayan tradition talks about the soma chakra which just above the Ajna Chakra which the yogis tap to obtain rass & get intoxicated. He also talks about the dark energies below the navel & white energies  above the navel energy kinda like you do ....hey chek this link out , it is way too advanced for me, but you might benefit  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NesxR9eqMC8&list=PLT2p_QkxUlKg0iQHhiBVjVVr91zbstSTB&index=31

 

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lucky bro, what are your thoughts about Agnisara kriya, apparently it activates the manipurak chakra and the solar heat inside the body.  it looks exactly like the bellows .

So personally for me , this pauri emphasizes the importance of conservation of energy through abstinence...pure mind & pure thoughts, the first step in the process of sadhana...then comes patience, then comes employing buddhi to understand the instruction of guru, then comes the importance of having love devotion, having the fear of Guru, and after all these efforts you have to leave everything to the Guru & ask for his grace to be accepted.

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6 hours ago, amardeep said:

Thanks for sharing that. Very interesting. For many many years i've wondered why the Japji Sahib does'nt end with the description of Sach Khand (pauri 37) before the Salok begins. I've always wondered the meanings of the Jat Pahara Dhiraj Suniar and why they were put in there between Sachkkhand and the conculding Salok as the Sachkhand verses would be a natural climax of the Japji. But your exegesis explains that :) Thanks for that.

Hmm I never thought of it like that. Reading the bani again with that in mind, actually makes sense.

When you have a climax, you also need a resolution. This pauri is that resolution.

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1 hour ago, Ragmaala said:

 

is bindu chakra the same thing as soma chakra ?

[Swami Rama Himalayan tradition talks about the soma chakra which just above the Ajna Chakra which the yogis tap to obtain rass & get intoxicated.

I think it is. Soma is also another name for the sweet nectar. I don't know too much about it except that it is the cooling moon energy and is represented by the crescent moon. It is associated with "shiva"..... this SAME crescent moon is on the  khanda worn by nihangs! I think it is worn by shiva as well...

Information is not that clear and kind of 'mumble jumbled' in different texts and sources but I believe there is some association or link with this chakra together with the ajna and crown chakra being linked to make the upward triangle that represents the 2 triangles making a star. The upright shiv/cool energy and down facing shakti/solar energy. Triangle may have something to do with Egyptian pyramids?... May also be the Christians "star of david"?....I'm not sure and haven't looked into it. ...What is also interesting is that you mentioned "intoxicant".. Now, the soma or nectar produced from pineal gland does contain small traces of "DMT".. DMT is a real potent hallucinogenic in higher doses. May be this has something to do with nihangs and bhang, but there are a number of highly spiritual tribes in the Amazon, Brazil that use this (ayahuasca) as part of their deep meditative practices. I'm aware and have learned that they do encounter some things in their states that are also encountered in some naam amrit avasthas.

 

1 hour ago, Ragmaala said:

lucky bro, what are your thoughts about Agnisara kriya, apparently it activates the manipurak chakra and the solar heat inside the body.  it looks exactly like the bellows .

I'm not too sure about that, but it is solar energy and agni.   I do the agniprasana quite often in class and this is also known as "breath of fire''. Whereas the agnisara is a little different because breath is held.   I will admit that I got a little annoyed doing this breath of fire in class because it would always diminish and stop amrit rus for over a week most times. I then stopped doing it, but later learned that I was imbalanced and that I needed more practice with both heating and cooing.......I'm still not balanced and in control though.

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On 2015-12-20 at 8:16 AM, Lucky said:

Good topic and good post.

I will just add a little because I feel that it may be a technique or jugtee that is given. I think it was the bellows mention in translations tat made me think of breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out....I'm not disagreeing with your post or anything, but I think we can dig a little deeper and see something that is practical and for us to use?
 

I think we have a different perspective on this. I agree with the overall spirit of the post. However, I thought I'd clarify a few things that I think you are over-looking.

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I think it may be saas saas gurmantar jap. We jap using bellows of body core(stomach navel and lungs),

While I think breath exercise is helpful in achieving states of meditation, I don't think the pauri is talking about breathing exercise.

ਭਉ ਖਲਾ ਅਗਨਿ ਤਪ ਤਾਉ
ਭਉ ਖਲਾ means you pump up your fear state and the fear state causes the fire to burn hot. The fear causes the ਤਪ, tapas.

Tapas does not come from using stomach and lungs.

Tapas comes from single pointed focus.

And then it rises when Hari comes in, causing the pumping of the fear state and causes even higher states of dhyan.

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the gurmantar has to be done with dhyian and single one-pointed focus. 

This is the key.

Where we differ is that you want to associate the breath exercise with this pauri. Whereas I don't think the pauri is referring to breath exercise.

I think the pauri is talking entirely about what is happening in the field of awareness. It is not referring to the body, it is only talking about your field of awareness.
 

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We merge with and into anhad naad. Get amrit rus and ching-ching-->a minted coin of naam begins to accumulate in our body-crucible.

Yep and all takes place in the field of awareness. There is an effect on the body but this pauri is not talking about that.

 

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Amrit is also considered as cooling and in gurbani it mentions in places how amrit cools the agan or brahmagan(fire-heat).

 

Where it says that amrit cools agni, the agni is referring to desire.

Amrit is an anti-dote to our desires.

The basic human desire is to seek stimulus.

In any given moment the tendency of the mind is to seek out stimulus. It won't sit still.

Constant distractions, seeking the next thing, one after another without taking a break, "what is next thing? what is next thing?"

This takes us out of the eternal moment - amrit.


Desire = seeking stimulus
Boredom = state of no stimulus

Desire is a response of the mind to run away from boredom.

People are bored but they don't want to be. They are constantly chasing after the next stimulus so they don't have to face their boredom.

But boredom must be faced!

 

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The next step was to get the gurmantar into  an authentic molten naam ras....and this happened using the ved from the naad. The next step would be to have the molten naam ras poured into the body crucible.

Body crucible... I get what you are saying.

However 
ਭਾਂਡਾ ਭਾਉ  ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਤਿਤੁ ਢਾਲਿ - in the container of love pour in the amrit

So the amrit has to be in a mental state of love.

Why is Guru Sahib saying that?


You have to understand that Amrit is referring to a state of boredom.
ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਵਹੁ ਸਦਾ ਚਿਰੁ ਜੀਵਹੁ
Guru sahib says, drink amrit and live forever. This is moment by moment. This is not a quantitative lengthening of time, this is a subjective lengthening of time.

Anyone who has sat through the last 5 minutes of a presentation or class and felt like the clock was moving very slowly, has just experienced amrit.

Had they been in love with that state, they would have been minting coins right there and then! 

But they suffered through those moments because they were not in love with amrit that was given to them. They did not see the value of it.

 

People do not realize the value of being bored. They are constantly seeking the next stimulus. What is next? What is next?

Whereas the reality is, that amrit is in the boredom, if you can be ok with being bored.

 

PS I know they will be many who disagree with or doubt my assertion that amrit = boredom.

However this is crucial to make this connection.

It is important to realize that boredom is a good thing, and when you make that connection with boredom, something will click, it will drastically change how you view your moment to moment experience, in a good way!

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In my experience, boredom means sloth , laziness, not wanting to do something when there is something to do.

A wise person can never be bored, there is always One thing that needs to be continuously done, which is Simran.

Amrit is received when one becomes deathless. How does one become deathless ? When one realizes his true self.

Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rara sahib talks about 3 types of Amrit

1) Sanskar Amrit  i.e I am assuming the ceremony

2) Naam Amrit

3) Gyan Amrit

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5 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

In my experience, boredom means sloth , laziness, not wanting to do something when there is something to do.

"not wanting to do something when there is something to do."
Ragmaala, I would just call that sloth and laziness, or procrastination if it continues over a long period.

I wouldn't call that boredom.

In my experience, boredom is something else. Boredome is something that the mind is always trying to escape.

It's when the mind is waiting for someone or something. And then... instead of sitting still and waiting.... that would be too boring.... the mind pulls out the cell phone or internet or something else to distract itself... boredom is too painful for it so it distracts itself.

It's when the mind is listening to someone speak, instead of letting them fully complete what they are saying... the mind starts coming up with other things to say in a conversation... because listening by itself would be too boring, so it distacts itself.

So in any moment, the mind tries to escape boredom through distraction.

And the mind is constantly doing this - getting distracted and avoiding boredom.
 

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A wise person can never be bored, there is always One thing that needs to be continuously done, which is Simran.

Amrit is received when one becomes deathless. How does one become deathless ? When one realizes his true self.

Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rara sahib talks about 3 types of Amrit

1) Sanskar Amrit  i.e I am assuming the ceremony

2) Naam Amrit

3) Gyan Amrit

This is true. No doubt.

But I can tell that you are only giving a conceptual answer.

Go into your moment to moment experience and see what is -
true self
deathlessness
eternity
eternal moment

How do these play out in every day life?

How do you taste amrit in your moment to moment living, right here, right now, without being enlightened?

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yea, i see what you mean.... but a better term wouldnt be "staying in present moment" ?

anyways lets stick to this pauri for the moment.  Why is so much importance given to Jat ?  I think one of the reasons is to preserve the energy that is unnecessarily lost through the 5 senses...especially a lot of focus is on conserving sexual energy..what are your thoughts ?

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On 2015-12-26 at 6:54 PM, Ragmaala said:

yea, i see what you mean.... but a better term wouldnt be "staying in present moment" ?

anyways lets stick to this pauri for the moment.  Why is so much importance given to Jat ?  I think one of the reasons is to preserve the energy that is unnecessarily lost through the 5 senses...especially a lot of focus is on conserving sexual energy..what are your thoughts ?

Well it's simple. If you are trying to reduce distraction as much as possible then you have to recognize the amount of distraction is there when you are receiving information from the five senses.

Remember Patanjali's sutra?

योगश्चित्तवृत्तिनिरोधः ॥२॥
ਯੋਗਸ਼ਚਿੱਤਵ੍ਰੱਤਿਨਿਰੋਧਃ [[੨]]
[[2]] (ਯੋਗ) Enlightenment comes when the (ਵ੍ਰੱਤਿ) wandering of (ਸ਼ਚਿੱਤ) consciousness (ਨਿਰੋਧਃ) stops.

तदा द्रष्टुः स्वरूपेवस्थानम् ॥३॥
ਤਦਾ ਦ੍ਰਸ਼ਟੁਃ ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪੇਵਸਥਾਨਮ੍ [[੩]]
[[3]] (ਤਦਾ) Then (ਦ੍ਰਸ਼ਟੁਃ) consciousness (ਸਥਾਨਮ੍) comes to dwell in its (ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪੇਵ) own form.


Your mind wanders when it receives information from the five senses, which form your perception.

Try to stay with your conscious form and be still and you will notice, little sounds from the outside environment will tug you away from your own form.

It's as if your attention is attached to external stimulus with a rope and any external stimulus tugs at the rope.

That tugging is called wandering or distraction and Patanjali says that there are 5 ways your mind wanders.

प्रमाण विपर्यय विकल्प निद्रा स्मृतयः ॥६॥
ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ ਵਿਪਰ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਵਿਕਲਪ ਨਿਦ੍ਰਾ ਸਮ੍ਰਤਯਃ [[੬]]
[[6]] 1. (ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ) Perception 2. (ਵਿਪਰ੍ਯ੍ਯ) Intellect 3. (ਵਿਕਲਪ) Imagination 4. (ਨਿਦ੍ਰਾ) Sleep 5. (ਸਮ੍ਰਤਯਃ) Memory

...and you need to tackle all of them.

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2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:


Remember Patanjali's sutra?

योगश्चित्तवृत्तिनिरोधः ॥२॥
ਯੋਗਸ਼ਚਿੱਤਵ੍ਰੱਤਿਨਿਰੋਧਃ [[੨]]
[[2]] (ਯੋਗ) Enlightenment comes when the (ਵ੍ਰੱਤਿ) wandering of (ਸ਼ਚਿੱਤ) consciousness (ਨਿਰੋਧਃ) stops.

तदा द्रष्टुः स्वरूपेवस्थानम् ॥३॥
ਤਦਾ ਦ੍ਰਸ਼ਟੁਃ ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪੇਵਸਥਾਨਮ੍ [[੩]]
[[3]] (ਤਦਾ) Then (ਦ੍ਰਸ਼ਟੁਃ) consciousness (ਸਥਾਨਮ੍) comes to dwell in its (ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪੇਵ) own form.
 

 

Its funny you mention this sutra, been listening to its commentary by Swami Rama.  Check it out  , he really goes into detail.

Not trying to sound arrogant or knowledgeable but the correct translation of Nirodha is not stop or suppress. Rather it is cultivating that state of mind which later on forms the foundation of Samadhi. I highly recommend you to listen to his commentary if you ever get time...this guy was a Giant during his times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RiT7IJ617g&list=PLBBD86952A2239E79

But yea I get your point, thanks for your time & input. :)

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2 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

Its funny you mention this sutra, been listening to its commentary by Swami Rama.  Check it out  , he really goes into detail.

Not trying to sound arrogant or knowledgeable but the correct translation of Nirodha is not stop or suppress. Rather it is cultivating that state of mind which later on forms the foundation of Samadhi. I highly recommend you to listen to his commentary if you ever get time...this guy was a Giant during his times. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RiT7IJ617g&list=PLBBD86952A2239E79

But yea I get your point, thanks for your time & input. :)

Thanks I'll check it out.
 

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the correct translation of Nirodha is not stop or suppress. Rather it is cultivating that state of mind which later on forms the foundation of Samadhi.

 

What distinction are you trying to make there?

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On 19/12/2015 at 11:57 PM, BhagatSingh said:

In Pauri 38 of Jap ji, Guru Nanak Dev ji describes the advanced meditation process using the analogy of a goldsmith. He describes the process as if it were being performed with a bunch of tools.

We might read it often, perhaps in the nitnem, but do we really understand what he is talking about?

Hopefully this thread will help you to understand this part of Guru Granth Sahib, and will help to put it on the map for your own inner journey.

 

That was a very good read, Bhagt Singh Ji, although I have read it before in Harbans Singhs Nitnem Steek.

May I ask if you have heard it being interpreted differently by others a la your Bhagat Namdev Ji article?

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On 2015-12-31 at 4:33 PM, chatanga1 said:

 

That was a very good read, Bhagt Singh Ji, although I have read it before in Harbans Singhs Nitnem Steek.

May I ask if you have heard it being interpreted differently by others a la your Bhagat Namdev Ji article?

Thanks. Yea similar explanations of it already exist. I read this Pauri back in 2009, when Dally brought it to my attention. Back then this Pauri didn't mean anything to me. Now several years later, I get it, it is part of my experience.

There's Lucky's post above. I think that's a slightly different take on it. Though it's not at all comparable to the botched translations of Namdev ji's shabads.

 

On 2015-12-26 at 6:54 PM, Ragmaala said:

yea, i see what you mean.... but a better term wouldnt be "staying in present moment" ?

Well it's an attempt at translating "Amrit" using words that people can understand easily.

Also "stay in boredom", as opposed to "stay in the present", is a slightly different way of approaching your moment to moment experience.

It is situational.

E.g. "I am bored. I am going to do X. ... Wait.... Can I stay still in the boredom? Can I be here in the present without running away from boredom?"


PS happy new year guys!

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21 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Also "stay in boredom", as opposed to "stay in the present", is a slightly different way of approaching your moment to moment experience.
It is situational.

 

hmm i think i am starting to get it...

"stay in boredom" I experience all the time , and is v easily experienced by many...but remaining in that state is annoying

but "stay in present" is def. situational...it may mean different things for an athlete ( game zone ), for a student ( focus during an exam)  or for a yogi ( samadhi)

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1 hour ago, Ragmaala said:

hmm i think i am starting to get it...

"stay in boredom" I experience all the time , and is v easily experienced by many...but remaining in that state is annoying

Seems like what you are mostly experiencing there is annoyance and discomfort.

You feel that irritation then you try to mitigate it.

I agree that you are easily accessing that state from time to time, but to remain in it is annoying. So then you never fully experience it.

BTW this is also true for sadness, anger and such states, people have easy access to sadness and anger. But they do not experience them fully, what they mostly experience is discomfort with sadness, and with anger, they experience frustration.

"they don't experience fully" - meaning there is no clarity there. There is no clarity in the field of their awareness, it is all mucky and muddy.
 

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but "stay in present" is def. situational...it may mean different things for an athlete ( game zone ), for a student ( focus during an exam)  or for a yogi ( samadhi)

 

It's the same with zone, focus and samadhi. You are easily accessing that state from time to time, but to remain in it is annoying or if you are a spiritual practitioner, it maybe frustrating.

Most people lack the clarity in their experiennce, their experience is too muddy for them to be able to experience the zone, focus, samadhi, more fully and deeply.

There is a discomfort in their body or even mind, that is pulling them out of it.

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