amardeep Posted July 29, 2018 Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 That’s a good price for the manuscript 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 29, 2018 Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 Sikh and yee shall find...hehehhee https://archive.org/details/bahardanushorga02llgoog https://archive.org/details/bahardanushorga00llgoog https://archive.org/details/bahardanushorga01llgoog 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 29, 2018 Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 8 hours ago, dalsingh101 said: Excellent work there Dal. It's very interesting to see that there were similiar works in Persian literature. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 29, 2018 Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 Just now, chatanga1 said: Excellent work there Dal. It's very interesting to see that there were similiar works in Persian literature. I had a flick through a bit of the translation by the gora. The original is highly flowery in its language. One change Dasam Granth made to this was to use more precise and less flamboyant language. Again this fits into the common Sikh understanding that Guru ji was making his Sikhs highly literate and facilitating access to literature for the masses and not just the elites. It looks like elements of the original texts that were considered superfluous (i.e. not useful to the needs of Sikhs) were jettisoned. You hear the same thing with the Chandhi prayers, where superfluous elements in the original Markandaya Puranas were jettisoned. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2018 On 7/28/2018 at 5:49 PM, paapiman said: Some of Chanakya jee's views (with regards to women) also conform with Gurbani. For examples: He says that women must be kept at a safe distance, which implies minimal interaction and avoidance of close friendship with them. Similarly, in Sri Assa kee Vaar Sahib jee, friendship with women is highly discouraged. He says that a woman is lost without her husband. In Sikhism, wives are suppose to respect their husbands (especially Gurmukh ones) as masters/lords and obey them. He says that a sagacious person does not listen to the advice of a woman. Similarly, in Gurbani, women as advisors, is considered as a sign of Kaljug. Bhul chuk maaf Chanakya jee also believed that women (on average) have more lust in them, than men. This is also in conformance with Sikhism. Please see the evidence below from Prem Sumarag Granth: Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2018 On 7/28/2018 at 5:49 PM, paapiman said: Some of Chanakya jee's views (with regards to women) also conform with Gurbani. For examples: He says that women must be kept at a safe distance, which implies minimal interaction and avoidance of close friendship with them. Similarly, in Sri Assa kee Vaar Sahib jee, friendship with women is highly discouraged. He says that a woman is lost without her husband. In Sikhism, wives are suppose to respect their husbands (especially Gurmukh ones) as masters/lords and obey them. He says that a sagacious person does not listen to the advice of a woman. Similarly, in Gurbani, women as advisors, is considered as a sign of Kaljug. Chanakya jee believed that stupidity is one of the natural flaws in a woman. Please see the excerpt below (from Prem Sumarag Granth) which talks about the intellect of a woman: Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted August 5, 2018 Report Share Posted August 5, 2018 1 hour ago, paapiman said: Chanakya jee believed that stupidity is one of the natural flaws in a woman. Please see the excerpt below (from Prem Sumarag Granth) which talks about the intellect of a woman: Bhul chuk maaf How comes you jump on Prem Sumarag when it comes to putting the boot into women, but struggle to accept the contents of the same work when it talks about eating meat and fish bro? In this day and age you can't avoid women like the plague. You will meet and have to interact with them - especially at work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2018 On 8/5/2018 at 7:57 AM, dalsingh101 said: In this day and age you can't avoid women like the plague. You will meet and have to interact with them - especially at work. Agreed, but we can minimize our interactions with them. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2018 Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. Daas heard about an incident from someone, which is related to the Charitars. The person who told me about it, used to live and work in a rich middle eastern country. One of the drivers (of a native Arab family) told him about this incident. A native Arab woman (whose family the person worked for as a driver) told him to have sex with her, otherwise he would be jailed. In those countries, non-natives don't have the same amount of rights, like those enjoyed in the western countries. The driver then had sex with her. I guess he had no option at that stage. In a western society, this would almost classify as a rape. The guy was threatened and coerced to have sex with that woman. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2018 On 7/29/2018 at 7:45 AM, amardeep said: There is no such thing in Sikhi pappiman If you are looking at Sikhi from a western lens, then you will definitely have troubles understanding the great intellect of Chanakya jee. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 13, 2018 Report Share Posted August 13, 2018 There is a British source from the late 1800s that says the Charitro Pakhyan teaches how to be a just ruler. Here you have a direct link between CP and rulership (rather than it being erotic tales) I'll try and post the quote when I've got acces to my notes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulfinder Posted September 25, 2018 Report Share Posted September 25, 2018 @paapiman here is all the media posted on this thread that i have made a back up copy of. Charitropakhyan Katha - What is Bhog (ਭੋਗ) in Gurmat_ - 03 ( 128kbps ).mp3 Charittar kyo rache Maharaj ne __ Giani Thakur Singh ji (Damdami Taksaal) ( 128kbps ).mp3 489_Uthanika_for_the_Charitar_Pakhyan_and_the_Sri_Benti_Chaupai.mp3 Akhauti Vidwan Dasam Granth To Kyo Darde Han - Katha By Giani Kulwant Singh Ji ( 256kbps cbr ).mp3 Pathee Dee Aagya_ Charitropakhyaan - Sant Kartar Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindranwale ( 128kbps ).mp3 क्या आप जानते है क्यों समझ से बाहर है _स्त्र ( 128kbps ).mp3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 Here's another interesting little known twist in the background of Bahar Danesh. According to this footnote in the translation by Jonathan Scott (where he castigates a previous attempt at translation by Dow), it seems that the original Persian text (by Inyahat Allah) mentions a young Brahmin being the source for the tales in the work? I'm not sure if this young Brahmin was a real person or a fictional character in the narrative? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 Found a pdf of above text anywhere Dal? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 On 7/29/2018 at 3:49 PM, dalsingh101 said: Sikh and yee shall find...hehehhee https://archive.org/details/bahardanushorga02llgoog https://archive.org/details/bahardanushorga00llgoog https://archive.org/details/bahardanushorga01llgoog 3 hours ago, chatanga1 said: Found a pdf of above text anywhere Dal? Not a pdf, but it's from these links I posted earlier ^^^^^^ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 In general I think we need to widen our understanding of the term “rajniti”. I think it’s wider than “politics” and “governance” as it is usually understood. Kavi Sainapat uses the word in his Chanakya niti translation (Bahu shaastra avilok kai sundar bachan nikaar, Raajniti sanbuuh ko barnan karo bithaar). Yet his book doesn’t deal with politics the way we would classify a book on politics today. It is more about psychology, ethics, schrewdness, being aware, being sceptical etc. You don’t learn governance through it, but rather how to be a sovereign individual. And I think this is the understanding of rajniti at the time of Maharaj and it is in this light we should see the Charitro Pakhyan - a book on sovereignty rather than a book on politics/governance only. Politics is just one ang of Rajniti which is a much wider term than what you have in the English language. Just some thoughts after going through the Chanakya in recent months. I have bought 3-4 different punjabi translations of it that I will go through in the next few months to better understand the context of this kind of writings- which the Charitro Pakhyan is most likely a part of. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted November 11, 2018 Report Share Posted November 11, 2018 Good work Amardeep. I have Chanaka-niti, and read it years ago. Maybe in time, i will have another look at it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted November 30, 2018 Report Share Posted November 30, 2018 Am copying and pasting this from Anurag Singhs FB page : ਤ੍ਰਿਆ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਖਯਾਨ ਦੇ ਮੂਲ ਸਰੋਤ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਾਲ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਦੇ ਪੰਨਿਆ ਤੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਕਾਇਨਾਤ ਦੇ ਬੱਦਲਦੇ ਰੰਗ-ਤਮਾਸ਼ੇ ਦੀ ਤਰਜਮਾਨੀ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਮੁੜ ਲੋਕ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਿਤ ਕੀਤੇ। =========================================== ਇਸ ਮਹਾਨ ਰੱਚਨਾ ਦੀ ਗਹਿਰਾਈ ਤੇ ਭੇਦ ਸੱਮਝਨ ਲਈ ਸੱਭ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਇਸ ਦੇ ਸਿਰਲੇਖ ਦਾ ਵਿਖਿਆਨ ਕਰਨਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਇਸ ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਕੀਤੇ ਜਾ ਰਹੇ ਕੂੜ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੜ੍ਹਾਂ ਪੁੱਟਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਹਾਈ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ। ‘ਪਾਖਯਾਨ’ ਪ੍ਰਾਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਦਾ ਲੱਫਜ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅੱਖਰੀ ਭਾਵ ਹੈ:(੧)ਕਥਾ ਜੋ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸਿੱਖੀ ਜਾ ਚੁੱਕੀ ਹੈ,(੨)ਪੁਰਾਤਨ ਕਹੀ ਕਥਾ,(੩)ਕਥਾ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਜੋ ਸਮਾਜਿਕ,ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਤੇ ਸਿਆਸੀ ਛੱਲ-ਕੱਪਟ ਦੀ ਤਰਜਮਾਨੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੋਵੇ,(੪)ਲੋਕ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਜੋ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਮਾਜਿਕ ਤਬਦੀਲੀ ਲਈ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੋਵੇ। ਸੋ ਇਸ ਸੰਦਰਭ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਿੰਦਕਾਂ ਦਾ ਕੁਤਰਕ:”ਕੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਲਿੱਖ ਸੱਕਦੇ ਹਨ” ਨਿਰਮੂਲ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਨਿਦਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਮਲੀਨ ਬੁੱਧੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।ਤ੍ਰਿਆ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਖਯਾਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ ਹੇਠ ਲਿਖੇ ਸਰੋਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਵ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਤੋਂ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਸਿੱਖਣ ਦਾ ਮੌਕਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਗਿਆਨ ਸਿੱਖ ਲਈ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ। (੧)ਪੁਰਾਣਿਕ ਸਾਹਿਤ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ):੨੦ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੨)ਮਹਾਭਾਰਤ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ) :੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੩)ਰਮਾਇਣ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ) :੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੪)ਪੰਚ ਤੰਤਰ:੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੫)ਹਿਤ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼:੪ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੬)ਕੁਰਾਨ ਮਜੀਦ:(ਅਰਬੀ):੧ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੭)ਬਾਈਬਲ:( ਲਾਤੀਨੀ)੧ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੮)ਚਾਰ ਦਰਵੇਸ਼(ਫ਼ਾਰਸੀ):੩ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੯)ਲੋਕ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ/ਦੰਦ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ:੫੫ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੧੦)ਇਤਿਹਾਸਕ:੩੮ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulfinder Posted December 1, 2018 Report Share Posted December 1, 2018 2 hours ago, chatanga1 said: Am copying and pasting this from Anurag Singhs FB page : ਤ੍ਰਿਆ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਖਯਾਨ ਦੇ ਮੂਲ ਸਰੋਤ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਾਲ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਦੇ ਪੰਨਿਆ ਤੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਕਾਇਨਾਤ ਦੇ ਬੱਦਲਦੇ ਰੰਗ-ਤਮਾਸ਼ੇ ਦੀ ਤਰਜਮਾਨੀ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਮੁੜ ਲੋਕ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਿਤ ਕੀਤੇ। =========================================== ਇਸ ਮਹਾਨ ਰੱਚਨਾ ਦੀ ਗਹਿਰਾਈ ਤੇ ਭੇਦ ਸੱਮਝਨ ਲਈ ਸੱਭ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਇਸ ਦੇ ਸਿਰਲੇਖ ਦਾ ਵਿਖਿਆਨ ਕਰਨਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਇਸ ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਕੀਤੇ ਜਾ ਰਹੇ ਕੂੜ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੜ੍ਹਾਂ ਪੁੱਟਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਹਾਈ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ। ‘ਪਾਖਯਾਨ’ ਪ੍ਰਾਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਦਾ ਲੱਫਜ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅੱਖਰੀ ਭਾਵ ਹੈ:(੧)ਕਥਾ ਜੋ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸਿੱਖੀ ਜਾ ਚੁੱਕੀ ਹੈ,(੨)ਪੁਰਾਤਨ ਕਹੀ ਕਥਾ,(੩)ਕਥਾ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਜੋ ਸਮਾਜਿਕ,ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਤੇ ਸਿਆਸੀ ਛੱਲ-ਕੱਪਟ ਦੀ ਤਰਜਮਾਨੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੋਵੇ,(੪)ਲੋਕ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਜੋ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਮਾਜਿਕ ਤਬਦੀਲੀ ਲਈ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੋਵੇ। ਸੋ ਇਸ ਸੰਦਰਭ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਿੰਦਕਾਂ ਦਾ ਕੁਤਰਕ:”ਕੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਲਿੱਖ ਸੱਕਦੇ ਹਨ” ਨਿਰਮੂਲ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਨਿਦਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਮਲੀਨ ਬੁੱਧੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।ਤ੍ਰਿਆ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਖਯਾਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ ਹੇਠ ਲਿਖੇ ਸਰੋਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਵ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਤੋਂ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਸਿੱਖਣ ਦਾ ਮੌਕਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਗਿਆਨ ਸਿੱਖ ਲਈ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ। (੧)ਪੁਰਾਣਿਕ ਸਾਹਿਤ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ):੨੦ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੨)ਮਹਾਭਾਰਤ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ) :੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੩)ਰਮਾਇਣ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ) :੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੪)ਪੰਚ ਤੰਤਰ:੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੫)ਹਿਤ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼:੪ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੬)ਕੁਰਾਨ ਮਜੀਦ:(ਅਰਬੀ):੧ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੭)ਬਾਈਬਲ:( ਲਾਤੀਨੀ)੧ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੮)ਚਾਰ ਦਰਵੇਸ਼(ਫ਼ਾਰਸੀ):੩ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੯)ਲੋਕ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ/ਦੰਦ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ:੫੫ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। (੧੦)ਇਤਿਹਾਸਕ:੩੮ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ। Thanks for sharing veer ji 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted June 11, 2019 Report Share Posted June 11, 2019 Wanted to share this little info with you all. in some of the charitars we have seen how people caught up in a potentially fatal situation have been able to escape by way of ruse, ie hiding and being transported out of danger. I have been reading "Ghost wars" which is about the CIA and Afghan-Soviet war. Saw this and wanted to share it with everyone here. It seems that this ploy seen several times in Sri CharitroPakhyan Granth is still in use. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted June 19, 2019 Report Share Posted June 19, 2019 Looking a little further into the legend of Raja rasalu, I found the the story of "Phaedra and Hippolytus" which a greek legend, and mirrors the same root story of Sri Charitropakhyan Granth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedra_(Seneca) It is a must read. The connections with the root story in Sri Charitropakhyan Granth are almost like for like. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted June 20, 2019 Report Share Posted June 20, 2019 12 hours ago, chatanga1 said: Looking a little further into the legend of Raja rasalu, I found the the story of "Phaedra and Hippolytus" which a greek legend, and mirrors the same root story of Sri Charitropakhyan Granth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedra_(Seneca) It is a must read. The connections with the root story in Sri Charitropakhyan Granth are almost like for like. Good find. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 31, 2019 Report Share Posted July 31, 2019 Anyone heard of this "The Enchanted Parrot" ? https://ia800209.us.archive.org/0/items/cu31924022986115/cu31924022986115.pdf It is very similiar in structure to Sri CharitroPakhyan Granth, and Panchtantra. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 1, 2019 Report Share Posted August 1, 2019 20 hours ago, chatanga1 said: Anyone heard of this "The Enchanted Parrot" ? https://ia800209.us.archive.org/0/items/cu31924022986115/cu31924022986115.pdf It is very similiar in structure to Sri CharitroPakhyan Granth, and Panchtantra. Robin rinehard alludes to it briefly in her Dasam Granth analysis along the panchtantra, hitupdesha. I was reading pyara singh padam’a analysis of CP yesterday and he is the first author I’ve seen who says some of the charitars have their basis in the Arabian nights (as we’ve discussed here on the forum years ago). He doesn’t mention which charitars unfortunately. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 17, 2021 Report Share Posted May 17, 2021 I have come across this old text called "Decameron." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decameron#Frame_story It is a text which is very similar to Sri CharitroPakhyan Granth in it's structure. It's worth reading the above link to see how the main characters are represented and what they came up with in the stories. Just wanted to share this snippet from the above link : "The frame narrative structure (though not the characters or plot) originates from the Panchatantra,[citation needed] which was written in Sanskrit before AD 500 and came to Boccaccio through a chain of translations that includes Old Persian, Arabic, Hebrew, and Latin. " 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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