Sri Charitropakhyan Sahib jee Series - Charitar #6

[GurpreetKaur]

27 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

you have my one vote on this.  Like a thumbs up lol

Why not just like the post, it's easy and lazy way lol

[GurpreetKaur]

36 minutes ago, paapiman said:

37 minutes ago, paapiman said:

He is a Devtay, so he can make a mistake. His head was cut off by Shivjee, when he saw him running after his daughter. Saraswati jee was very beautiful, that is why he become a victim of lust.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

In another post by  ragmaala ji shiv ji was not doing very well in lust area either lol . How can he punish brahma ? 

You don't have to answer I am just pointing it out lol 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, GurpreetKaur said:

 

Sister, Brahma jee got sexually attracted to his own daughter, while Shivjee got attracted to a beautiful lady (who was unrelated to him). There is a big difference between the two.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, Ragmaala said:

"In the Agni Purana, as the enchanted Shiva follows Mohini, drops of his semen falls on the ground and become lingas, Shiva's symbols. His semen also generates the monkey-god Hanuman, who helps Vishnu's avatar Rama in his fight against Ravana in the Ramayana.^[36]Shiva Purana says that by the mere glimpse of Mohini, Shiva spurts out his seed. The seed was collected and poured into the ear of Anjani, who gave birth to Hanuman, the incarnation of Shiva.^[34] The latter is retold in the Thai and Malaysian version of the Ramayana.^[37] Though Hanuman strings from Shiva's seed, he is also considered as a combined son of Vishnu and Shiva.^[17]" 

Bro, there is another story regarding the birth of Sri Hanumaan jee. A Rikhi jee had given some fruits to Raja Dasrath jee (after his Tap) for his three wives. One fruit was taken away by a bird and reached Mata Anjani jee. She ate this fruit and Bhagat jee was born.

Anyways, this is off-topic. Gurparsaad, might start a new topic on this.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

On 13/02/2016 at 6:53 PM, GurpreetKaur said:

These characters are repetitive now.

 

The characters are repetitive but it's the subtle differences in the text that are revealing snippets of information to the reader. Take into consideration the background to the text. The King is about to execute his son. So the Wise Minister has to tell him without being confrontational about it, otherwise he could share the son's fate as well. So he is telling the stories with small vital pieces of info to get the King thinking.

 

[chatanga1]

In this Charitrar, the parts that stand out to me are:

1. the snake in the dream, which signifies death. The woman tells her husband that she has foreseen his death which in retrospect will be her death as well.

2. the stepping on the husbands head by the "brahman". Stepping on someone in Sanskrit culture means they are completely under the control of the person stepping over them/ or standing on them.

 

To me it seems that the Wise Minister is trying to tell the King, that the young queen has enacted a drama where she is portraying herself as being concerned with the King's welfare and her own welfare, by exposing his son as a violater of her, but actually she is showing herself to be in total control of him.

 

I dont know why, but i had some imagery of Shiv Ji when reading this, as Shiv Ji wore black snakes around his death. He is also the god of death/destruction. Also what is interesting is that when Parbati took Durga form, she wouldn't return back to Parvati, and then Shiv Ji lay down in her path and she stepped on him, realising that she had put her foot on her Pati Parmeshwars head and instantly her ferocious form returned to Parvati full of remorse for what she had done.

[paapiman]

On 2/13/2016 at 2:12 PM, Ragmaala said:

- Jatt's wife...Jatt is considered to be a fool by default here lol

Bro, it mentions in the Charitar that the Jatt/Jaat was a Moorakh. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 2/13/2016 at 2:56 PM, paapiman said:

Sister, these Charitars have Anthriv arths, but we need a Gurmukh scholar to explain them. Gurparssad, will provide you an example from SSGGSJM, which will make it clear for you.

@GurpreetKaur@amardeep@chatanga1@Ragmaala

An example of Anthriv Arths:

Uthanka - During Shromani Bhagat Baba Kabeer jee Maharaaj's time a "Kaal Chakar" occurred. A hunter shot a female deer (who was pregnant) and killed, both the deer and the baby. There was a snake nearby, who bit the hunter, but the hunter managed to kill it. The hunter died later. because of the bite. When the news of the hunter's demise reached his wife, she also died due to grief. She was also preganant. Therefore, in total 6 beings (4 males and 2 females) died.

When Bhagat jee heard this incident, he uttered the following verse:

 

ਕਬੀਰ ਏਕ ਮਰੰਤੇ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਏ ਦੋਇ ਮਰੰਤਹ ਚਾਰਿ ॥

Kabeer, when one died, two were dead. When two died, four were dead.

ਚਾਰਿ ਮਰੰਤਹ ਛਹ ਮੂਏ ਚਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖ ਦੁਇ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੯੧॥

When four died, six were dead, four males and two females. ||91||

 

Now, let us look at the Anthirv Arths:

First Anthriv Arth -  Firstly, the sankalp (thought) to enjoy the products of this world ended, which caused the sankalp of enjoyment of items from Pataal (underneath Earth), such as like gold, silver, etc. to end. (Two Deaths) Due to these, the sankalp to enjoy the life of the next worlds ended (Heavens and Braham Lok). (Four Deaths) Further, due to these, both Slander (Ninda) and Praise (Ustat) were destroyed. (Six Deaths) In total, six things were eliminated from the body.

Second Anthriv Arth - Firstly, Raag (biased love) ended, which caused Duaash (Duality) to end. (Two Deaths) Due to these, both Sukh (Joy) and Dukh (sorrow) ended. (Four Deaths) Further, due to these, both Assa (Desires) and Tarishna (Excessive desires) ended. (Six Deaths) Again, in total, six things were eliminated from the body.

Third Anthriv Arth (different counting method) - Firstly, Ego was eliminated, which caused both Raag and Duash to end. (Two Deaths) Due to these, Kaam, Krodh, Lobh and Moh died. (Four Deaths) Further, due to these, 6 more deaths occurred - 5 Gyan Indriye (senses - sight, touch, hearing, etc) and Mann (Mind). (Six Deaths) 

 

Daas is almost certain that Sri Charitropakhain Sahib jee also has Anthriv Arths.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

@GurpreetKaur I just found this quote from Macauliffe who wrote his The Sikh Religion some 100 years ago, He writes that there is loads of repetition in the Guru Granth Sahib and therefore he did'n translate all parts. He says this is common to religious scripture:

"It is intelligible that repetitions should be found in the sacred books of several religions, for the teachings of their prophets were orally addressed to crowds who clustered round them, and repetitions served to impress on the listeners the instruction accorded; but in a printed work, which the reader may peruse and reperuse at pleasure, repetition does not appear so necessary. Moreover, this work is intended for the European as well as for the Sikh student. It is apprehended that repetition would prove tedious, and deter several even conscientious readers from its perusal."

[dalsingh101]

4 minutes ago, amardeep said:

@GurpreetKaur I just found this quote from Macauliffe who wrote his The Sikh Religion some 100 years ago, He writes that there is loads of repetition in the Guru Granth Sahib and therefore he did'n translate all parts. He says this is common to religious scripture:

"It is intelligible that repetitions should be found in the sacred books of several religions, for the teachings of their prophets were orally addressed to crowds who clustered round them, and repetitions served to impress on the listeners the instruction accorded; but in a printed work, which the reader may peruse and reperuse at pleasure, repetition does not appear so necessary. Moreover, this work is intended for the European as well as for the Sikh student. It is apprehended that repetition would prove tedious, and deter several even conscientious readers from its perusal."

And we know dasmesh pita did exactly this. Had stuff read and interpreted in his darbar. That might help explain? 

[amardeep]

What do you mean DalSingh

[dalsingh101]

I'm just saying that the chariters might have been read out (one or a few at a time) and discussed. 

[amardeep]

True. Indeed.

[Singh123456777]

[chatanga1]

Just like to add in this story, Verse 5 as translated b y Bindra says:

"after hunting he made love to that girl"

whereas Rattan Singh Jaggi translates it as :

"He fell in love with the girl"

[amardeep]

26 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

Just like to add in this story, Verse 5 as translated b y Bindra says:

"after hunting he made love to that girl"

whereas Rattan Singh Jaggi translates it as :

"He fell in love with the girl"

Good that you are cross-referencing with Punjabi translations.

[paapiman]

18 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Just like to add in this story, Verse 5 as translated b y Bindra says:

"after hunting he made love to that girl"

whereas Rattan Singh Jaggi translates it as :

"He fell in love with the girl"

 

17 hours ago, amardeep said:

Good that you are cross-referencing with Punjabi translations.

 

This is the verse in Gurmukhi.

ਖੇਲਿ ਅਖੇਟਕ ਆਨਿ ਨ੍ਰਿਪ ਰਤਿ ਮਾਨੀ ਤਿਹ ਸੰਗ ॥

ਰਤਿ ਮਾਨੀ - can refer to sweet talk. It does not have to mean sexual activity.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[chatanga1]

Just wanted to add to this that the portrayal of the husband as a "bear" by the wise minister is done to show him in a negative light.

ie his wife didn't find any positive qualities in him and detested him, hence the his status as a bear. Some animals even with positive attributes can be used to describe humans, the most popular amongst Panjabis being dog.

So the wise minister is telling the King that the wife pretended to be acting in the defence of her husband, who she despised and who was actually in full submission of his wife who persuaded the husband to have their head placed under the King's foot.

Again this is an attempt to replicate the situation that the King Chitr-Sen finds himself in.

[dalsingh101]

Also, zooming out. 

 

It also gives a strategy for dealing with a powerful person (the king) who is reacting emotionally and destructively (imprisoning his son, and possibly having him executed later). 

So the chariters give us a strategy to slowly deal with such a scenario through engaging the upset person with stories and slowly over time, attenuating their angry emotions so they can make a clearer decision over their angry, blindly emotionally based immediate reaction.

I read a technique to try and get people to widen their perspective and not act rashly when they are all over the place because someone has mislead them or their are under some misapprehension. 

At the core of the chariters is the issue of making rash decisions and harming innocent people. 

 

With this specific chariter the issue of people being uncouth and unsophisticated (hence like a bear) is broached, it shows us how many women find such things disgusting, and a women finding themselves in such a situation might be attracted to someone more refined like the raja.

[amardeep]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

 

At the core of the chariters is the issue of making rash decisions and harming innocent people. 

The only place in the Zafarnama where the Guru quotes Persian writings is the following:

ਚਿਹ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਗੁਫ਼ਤ ਫਿਰਦੌਸੀਏ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਜ਼ੁਬਾਂ ॥ ਸ਼ਿਤਾਬੀ ਬਵਦ ਕਾਰਿ ਆਹਰਮਨਾ ॥੮੦॥
Listen to this well-said quotation of Firdausi : "hasty actions are the work of Satan".80

The Guru reprimanded Aurangzeb for having put his trust in his ministers and army generals who in haste executed his underage sons.

Edited February 23, 2016 by amardeep

[dalsingh101]

ਸ਼ਿਤਾਬੀ  - So this is a Persian word. Interesting.

[amardeep]

When we've read and discussed more charitars it would be interesting to see how they fit with the criticism targeted at Aurangzeb in the Zafarnama.

[Ragmaala]

Another teaching can be to not make decisions if you are emotionally agitated either in lust or anger. One needs to broaden their thinking process, give due merit to all the evidence before reaching at a conclusion. King was affected by lust, jealousy & anger, thus he wanted to execute his son right away. 

[dalsingh101]

1 hour ago, amardeep said:

When we've read and discussed more charitars it would be interesting to see how they fit with the criticism targeted at Aurangzeb in the Zafarnama.

When I read this first I thought: "What is he on about? Why do that?"

 

Then it dawned on me that zafar-nama is generally appended to the end of CP, so it makes sense. 

[amardeep]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

When I read this first I thought: "What is he on about? Why do that?"

 

Then it dawned on me that zafar-nama is generally appended to the end of CP, so it makes sense. 

Cool I did'n know that this was the case.

Some of the charitras have been appened to the Zafarnama in Persian translation. It would be interesting also to see if the "morale" of these persian charitras are reflected in the message and subtle attacks the Guru makes on Aurangzeb.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Hikayat