Gurbilas Patshahi Chhevin

[BhagatSingh]

8 hours ago, paapiman said:

It should not come of as a surprise to Sikhs that Sri Satguru jee procreated without any sexual intercourse. Mantar technology is very powerful and can do wonders.

8 hours ago, amardeep said:

The Gurus were grishti householders with everything it implies.

These ideas of using mantars were probably poetic devices used to make the Gurus resemble the Avatars of the Puranas etc.

Both answers are partly correct and partly incorrect.

It is true to say that Guru Sahibs used mantras and procreated without having sex. It is also true to say that Guru Sahibs had sex to create children.

But

What is not being understood here is how the absorption in a mantra can change the nature of sexual activity or indeed any activity (Karm).

The is known as the concept of Nish-Karm or Neh-Karm.

The idea is that your soul is like clay and any activity (karm) you perform leaves an imprint on soul. This imprint is known as Sanskar. So doing an activity without leaving imprints, is known as Nishkarm, or Nehkarm ਨਿਹਕਰਮ

In this way the actions you perform reduce suffering, instead of causing suffering. They become pure, they become good because they minimize the suffering that is produced.

There are many ways to perform activities like this.

I talked about this concept in this thread quoted below about - Krishan ji being celibate after having sexual intercourse.

And I spoke about it without giving any name to it, about the idea of doing activities without seeking fruits. That is essentialy Nishkarm.

 

 

Guru Arjun Dev ji says to his Sikhs and sets a standard for who they should strive to be. He says -

ਬੈਸਨੋ ਸੋ ਜਿਸੁ ਊਪਰਿ ਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥
Those are Vaishnavs with whom Vishnu (nirankar) is pleased.

ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਹੋਇ ਭਿੰਨ ॥
He stands apart from the Maya that is created by Vishnu.

ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥
They act without acting. They perform karma while being non-karma (Nishkarm/nehkarma).

ਤਿਸੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਕਾ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਧਰਮ ॥
The Vaishnava who does this is doing pure Dharm.

So we gotta act without acting? Perform karma without performing karma? What is he talking about???
Guru Sahib explains this -

ਕਾਹੂ ਫਲ ਕੀ ਇਛਾ ਨਹੀ ਬਾਛੈ ॥
Such a Vaishnav, does not desire for the fruits of his actions.

ਕੇਵਲ ਭਗਤਿ ਕੀਰਤਨ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਚੈ ॥
He is attached to Bhagti and Kirtan, of worship and singing praises.

ਮਨ ਤਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥
He meditates on Vishnu, inside his mind and body.

ਸਭ ਊਪਰਿ ਹੋਵਤ ਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥
He is kind to everyone.

ਆਪਿ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥
He strengthens the power of Naam ("mantar technology"), that is meditation, inside himself and inspires others to chant as well and become more meditative.

ਨਾਨਕ ਓਹੁ ਬੈਸਨੋ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
Guru Arjun Dev ji says, such a Vaishnav, such a Sikh, obtains the Supreme State.

 

The idea that Guru Sahibs put forth is that your karma is essentially eliminated if you diminish your Ahankar, when you do not seek fruits of your actions, remaining absorbed in meditation.

Performing actions in the zone.

In this manner, the action you perform becomes pure. If eliminates suffering instead of causing suffering.

So the idea that Guru Sahibs didn't have sex to procreate is correct because they did not seek fruits of their sexual intercourse. They remained fully absorbed in mantar sadhana, in the home of their Supreme Self. Their ahankar was diminished. ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥ They were being Nishkarm while having sexual intercourse.

In Bhagvad Gita, this process is also explained, through which one becomes Nishkarma. The process came to be known as Karma Yoga. To unite with the Supreme Being, through action/non-action.

Btw

I am not just saying stuff I have read. I am speaking about this from my own experience as well. This can be done by anyone provided they are fully determined to do it... err I mean to non-do it. ;)

[chatanga1]

That is really good Bhagat Singh Ji.

[Ragmaala]

You provided a good take Bhagat, in terms of what a normal human being like you and me can accomplish or hope to accomplish in their life. Thats how it should be or what we can take away from it.

But in terms of fact/reality I will choose to believe bachans of Mahapurush Baba Nand Singh & Baba Ishar Singh Kaleran that Gurus were physically celibate & did not indulge in Bhog.

We all stay happy :)

[BhagatSingh]

@Ragmaala

Where can I find their original words?

[Ragmaala]

I will try to find it for you.

[paapiman]

Sri Satguru jee could have had sex with many women (even outside of Marriage) and stayed Neh-karam or Nirlayp. No Sikh should doubt that, but facts cannot be changed. If a demi-God like Sri Krishan jee can remain celibate after Raas Lila, we can all imagine, the power/skills of Almighty Waheguru. 

For example - Sri Satguru jee (Sixth Master and Tenth Master) physically killed many people. It is a fact. One can possibly write books on why he did so. People were not killed; but liberated, soul does not die, Maharaaj was free of ego, list Gurbani verses, and so on. But does it change the reality that Maharaaj physically killed people (from a ordinary human's perspective)? - No, it does not.

Similarly, from this text and Baba Nand Singh jee's bachan, there should be no doubt that Sri Satguru jee (First Master and Sixth Master) used different technologies to procreate, rather than physical sexual intercourse.

@BhagatSingh - Good explanation.

Anyways, let's stick to this topic. If anyone wants to reply to this post, can you please start a new topic?

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

18 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

But in terms of fact/reality I will choose to believe bachans of Mahapurush Baba Nand Singh & Baba Ishar Singh Kaleran that Gurus were physically celibate & did not indulge in Bhog.

Did Mahapurakh say that all Gurus were physically celibate, or the bachan was regarding Sri Satguru jee (First Master) only?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Ragmaala]

2 hours ago, paapiman said:

Did Mahapurakh say that all Gurus were physically celibate, or the bachan was regarding Sri Satguru jee (First Master) only?

Bhul chuk maaf

I will read through the series of Anand Chamatkar & post the relevant pages here. It might take some time.

 

[mahanpaapi]

From the point of view of eternal reality (which is unknown to or not experienced by us), faith, devotion, and love, Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj used to emphasize harshly and repeatedly that connecting sexual aspects to any Guru Maharaji's existence, is preposterous and unthinkable, and just forget about talking or discussing those issues.  

From the point of view spiritual logic, Baba Nand Singh Ji pointed out that Guru Maharaj Ji (and other similar divine entiies) are even beyond celibacy, because their bodies essentially comprises only Naam, and appears to us like ours.

 

[chatanga1]

I am uploading the last 3 pages of the saki from GP6 concerning Mata Kaulan. @Jatro@IJJSingh and @ everyone else, if you help in completing I will be very grateful. I think the verses concerned go up to 743.

 

 

[Guest SikhKhoj]

dally, since you are the only person with an open mind on here, try to lay you hands on the sakhis that were edited out of Sau Sakhi and detail the guru's sexual life. I am not saying the sakhis are truth but our professors censored them out because they were offensive haha (as usual anything that challenges our mind is censored and not talked about, like criticism of Dasam Granth)

but it shows that not all Sikhs gave in to the mantra-creating-babies theory.

[BhagatSingh]

On 2016-05-21 at 1:58 PM, mahanpaapi said:

From the point of view of eternal reality (which is unknown to or not experienced by us), faith, devotion, and love, Baba Nand Singh Ji Maharaj used to emphasize harshly and repeatedly that connecting sexual aspects to any Guru Maharaji's existence, is preposterous and unthinkable, and just forget about talking or discussing those issues.  

Sure.

Quote

From the point of view spiritual logic, Baba Nand Singh Ji pointed out that Guru Maharaj Ji (and other similar divine entiies) are even beyond celibacy, because their bodies essentially comprises only Naam, and appears to us like ours.

But we have to understand what it means to be "beyond" anything, beyond celibacy, beyond yoni, beyond karma etc. Guru Arjun Dev ji came from yoni. So what does it mean when the Bhatts called him Ayoni/beyond yoni?
These things have spiritual meanings.

To do, without doing. To act, without acting. To have sex, without having sex.

This is what our masters had mastered.

How to be immersed in naam simran, so that the nature of all actions changes.

It is confusing. Without proper guidance, it cannot be understood and cannot be applied into everyday life.

[mahanpaapi]

Indeed it is confusing because mind and intellect are basis of our thinking which cannot comprehend the Incomprehensible, personally I do not want to keep confusion and then also try to comprehend at the same time, for me a Dargahi Mahapurakh's word is eternal truth, I defer to Him so most things so my mind is relatively at ease. Once I start from that premise, my perspective becomes certain and I move on. The fundamental rule of understanding Gurbani is, to know exactly what it means, one has to "evad ucha hove koye tis uche ko jane soi." or "one's mind is ten times more bigger than of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj," conclusive stated by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. And we are nowhere even near that periphery.

Finally, all puran avatars and mahapurakhs were and will be ajoni, that is truth Bhagat Singh ji.  If you want to know for genuine curiosity (for sure it will not match your understanding but will you accept that truth? I will be more than happy to send you a personal note on how that is possible because it is not thing of public spectacle. I do not want most intimate aspect of my Beloved's life to be dragged in public debate, it is too painful. Although I respect different perspectives on this issue.

 

 

 

[dalsingh101]

11 hours ago, Guest SikhKhoj said:

dally, since you are the only person with an open mind on here, try to lay you hands on the sakhis that were edited out of Sau Sakhi and detail the guru's sexual life. I am not saying the sakhis are truth but our professors censored them out because they were offensive haha (as usual anything that challenges our mind is censored and not talked about, like criticism of Dasam Granth)

but it shows that not all Sikhs gave in to the mantra-creating-babies theory.

I don't think I'm the only person with an open mind here, people like N30 or Amardeep aren't narrow minded. 

I don't know how the hell anyone would get hold of those sakhis you mention anyway? Maybe a copy is lurking around in the British library somewhere? Plus I don't really have too much of an interest in the matter.  There are much more important and compelling issues we face as a community. Especially in the diaspora. 

 

But I will add, I think that a similar impulse is at work when people go into some weird denial about the possibility of Gurus conceiving children via the normal route, and people who are staunchly anti Charitrio-pakyaan. It's  only a small stretch from people going:

"The Guru's didn't have sex to make children!! They are above such things! What a ridiculous notion!"

to

"The Gurus could never have written this material with all its sexual/erotic/salacious (etc. etc.) contents, they are above such things."

 

That's my take on it. No need to go on about it. 

 

People can believe in what the heck they want. I couldn't care a hoot. Let Waheguru spread understanding to individuals at the pace they deem appropriate (myself included). 

[paapiman]

Majority (or at least many) of the people, who reject Sri Chatriopakhian Sahib jee, are from Missionary backgrounds. According to their line of thinking, Sri Satguru jee procreated via the normal route (as done by humans, animals, etc).    

On the other hand, many Sikhs who are connected to Sampradas, do not doubt any part of Gurbani (including Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee), yet believe that Sri Satguru jee procreated without any physical sexual intercourse.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

10 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Majority (or at least many) of the people, who reject Sri Chatriopakhian Sahib jee, are from Missionary backgrounds. According to their line of thinking, Sri Satguru jee procreated via the normal route (as done by humans animals, etc).    

On the other hand, many Sikhs who are connected to Sampradas, do not doubt any part of Gurbani (including Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee), yet believe that Sri Satguru jee procreated without any physical sexual intercourse.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Believe it or not, there is a Sikh world (especially in the diaspora) that exists outside of sampradayas and missionaries. 

[Guest SikhKhoj]

2 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Believe it or not, there is a Sikh world (especially in the diaspora) that exists outside of sampradayas and missionaries. 

This.

I was just telling for your info Dally, because its not so known. And Neo is somewhat open minded, and others one of those individuals like those professors who would twist history just to fit in his narrative so I have no faith in him. He would be capable of omitting or altering Sakhis like Veer Singh, Pyara Singh Padam just to fit in their view of Sikhi.

[paapiman]

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

@paapiman This katha is from Sooraj Prakash ?

[paapiman]

On 5/30/2016 at 3:59 PM, chatanga1 said:

@paapiman This katha is from Sooraj Prakash ?

Most likely. Daas has not heard the entire katha of Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth, so cannot say for sure.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

OK so there are 2 and a half pages left of this sakhi to translate so let's see if we cna bring this sakhi to a conclusion from GP6, although there is another source concerning Mata kaulan that I would like to share after.

Dohra:

Sahib Ram Koer Ji is known as Gurbaksh Singh

Devoting himself to the 10th Guru, all his works were completed. (720)

 

Chaupai:

For 7 forms intercourse was not performed, the mantar of Satnam was held in his mouth

Further on, families were joined by marriage, the souls of Kalyug meeting thier companions (721)

Now the 10 forms of mine that have come, do not perform intercourse but the result is obtained

So leave your desire to perform intercourse, rise and and taste the essence of Guru Nanak's feet. (722)

 

Dohra:

Hearing the words, Kaulan rose, her intellect having been struck

My desire has completely vanished she said from her mouth (723)

 

Chaupai:

My Lord, you are righteous, Lord, You have saved me from the fires of desire

One desire does still persist in my mind, There is no name in this world withou a son (724)

Please give me this mantar, or try an alternative method

Whereby my name will remain in this world. The world will praise you even moreso. (725)

 

Dohra:

The guru said, Those who see my four children

Those who's name are exalted they are repeating them (726).

 

Arril:

You will have a child that will be known throughout the world

Child, Aged, and Youth will talk about it from their mouths

All persons will know, from the high to the low,

Your child will receive this fruit from everyone (727)

 

Chaupai:

Your child will be revealed as a sarovar, it's name will be Kaulsar from the begining

Kaulan become overjoyed on hearing this, she fell at Sri  Satguru's feet.(728)

Discussing this the day of creation came, Guru Sahib told Baba Budha as such

Sahib Budha and Bhai Gurdas, came together there like peace and joy. (729).

 

Any corrections need to be made?

 

[chatanga1]

Dohra:

Sri Guru Sahib told Baba Budha of Kaulan's desire

this desire for a son will result in a sarovar pouring comfort (730)

 

Chaupai:

Sahib Budha then said, whatever you do is for the welfare of the world

Hearing this Guru Ji stood up and tightened his waistband, Bhagat Singh says the Guru is all-knowing (731)

The Bohar (tree) which stands to the east, Guru went and stood by it

Saying the true name, a strike was made, repeating the name Kaulsar from his mouth (732)

 

Dohra:

The sangat came to celebrate Maghi, seeing the benevolent Guru

Whoever helps in this work (of digging the sarovar) will recieve a four-fold fruit (733)

 

Chaupai:

The sangat came in large numbers, joining in the work, all carried on their heads

The holy mouth said the elevated words, whichever man or woman bathes here (734)

whatvever deisres they have on performing a bathe, their desires will be fulfilled

For the desire of a son whchever woman bathes here, within one year she will give birth to a son. (735)

 

Dohra:

any other desires that a person haswill be obtained

Bhagat Singh says this gentle promise was given from the Guru's mouth (736)

 

Swaiya:

The righteous, merciful and benevolent Lord, has said this from his holy mouth

Have knowledge that visiting many places of pilgrimage in this world, perform penance and charity, will be rewarded,

Whosoever person has a bathe here, listen further will increase his knowledge

As long as the earth and sky remain, the will also remain the name that gives always gives peace (737)

 

Dohra:

In time the sarovar was completed and Guru said from his mouth

....................................................................................................(738)

 

Swaiya:

........................................................................................................

Lighting a candle every day, whoever worships here will recieve their minds desires

......................................................................................................

whichever man desires for wealth, woman, or son, he will obatin it, do not have any doubts over this (739)

 

I think i have run out of steam. Can't structure the wlines I have left out.

Any help?

 

 

[chatanga1]

On 09/06/2016 at 5:20 PM, chatanga1 said:

Dohra:

In time the sarovar was completed and Guru said from his mouth

....................................................................................................(738)

Swaiya:

........................................................................................................

Lighting a candle every day, whoever worships here will recieve their minds desires

......................................................................................................

whichever man desires for wealth, woman, or son, he will obatin it, do not have any doubts over this (739)

 

Dohra:

In time, this will become permanent (the sarovar only being kacha at this time), the Holy Guru said from his mouth

The poet Bohar sings the praises of the Guruwho has provided many comforts (738)

 

Swaiya:

The Gurur's word is firm like a tree, and equal to the "Kal-Briksh" tree ( a tree that grants all wishes in Hinduism), whatever is desired is obtained

Lighting a candle every day, whoever worships here will recieve their minds desires

....

 

Had to ask a Gyani for help on the above.

 

[chatanga1]

Here is the last page:

[chatanga1]

Let's try and finish it off:

 

Dohra:

This will be praised as a great place of pilgrimage, listen Budha and Gurdas

All the congregation were elated, kaulan was filled with great joy (740)

 

Arril

Bhagat Singh, this was  very blissful day

The second reason being the day of Maghi where peace was obtained

The day was the 5th and full moon was recognisable

The Sarovar was revealed and the praise was known. (741)

Then Kaulan was reassured by the Guru

The poet is a sacrifice and a sacrifice again to the Guru, showered in his love

Great fools and thoise with low intellect, from his kindness

Become pure from the low actions, from their minds (742)

 

Dohra

Sahib Budha immersed himself in the Guru's Holy feet

Death will be coming in 2 days to take him away (743) ( I seriously hope I'm getting this right!)

 

Chaupai:

Returning to his throne the Lord bowed...

 

And that is where it ends.

 

I cannot see any cause for controversy in these pages, assuming that I got the gist of it correctly.