Sri Raagmala and Sri Sarabloh Granth

[paapiman]

Please listen to Gyani Pooran Singh jee, describing the link between Sri Raagmala Sahib jee and Sri Sarabloh Granth Sahib jee (Sri Loh Prakash Granth jee).

Please start listening after 8:00 min:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Giani_Pooran_Singh_%28Delhi_wale%29/Raagmala_Viakhya/Giani.Pooran.Singh--Raagmala.Viakhya.Part.13.mp3

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

I've heard that before also but never had the time to see if it is accurate. Have you ? Quite interesting if thats the case.

[paapiman]

15 hours ago, amardeep said:

I've heard that before also but never had the time to see if it is accurate. Have you ? Quite interesting if thats the case.

Nah bro. Daas hasn't read, or heard Katha, of Sri Loh Prakash Granth Sahib jee much. Daas will assume it to be true (based on the caliber of Gyani jee), until proven otherwise.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

I talked to a knowledgeable SIngh about this. He says Sri Sarbloh Granth contains all the raags of the raagmala + more.

[paapiman]

@Trimandeep Singh - Bro, please do go through this topic.

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Trimandeep Singh]

Bhai sahib, I equally respect Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji (didn't read Raagmaala) and Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji. I listen to Taksaal Kathavachaks a lot because they are very reliable and knowledgeable and quite chintak of the Panth. It's just that after doing research, I found AKJ points very logical and in line with Gurmat. Their arguments against the points given by those in favour are worth considering.

However, I respect the sentiments and love of gursikhs towards this bani. I don't desire to change your opinion and neither my opinion will change. Let's end it here respectfully.

I am charan dhoor of all the gursikhs here. I think it is the kautak of Guru Sahib only to make us know that even if one reaches the highest spiritual avastha, still no-one can know the ant (end) of their guru. Vaheguru!

Bhul chuk maaf

Trimandeep Singh 

[paapiman]

5 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

However, I respect the sentiments and love of gursikhs towards this bani. I don't desire to change your opinion and neither my opinion will change. Let's end it here respectfully.

Daas understands that we should not talk too much about controversial topics like Sri Raagmala Sahib, Jhatka Maryada, Sukha Maryada, etc, but Daas had a question for you.

This is a bit off-topic, but Daas hopes that the Sangat won't mind.

If there are 5 Gurmukh Brahamgyanis and out of them, 4 of them have the same opinion on a particular subject. The last one has a different opinion. Whose opinion will you follow? 

For me, it's very simple. Daas would follow the opinion of the majority (to be on the safe side).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Trimandeep Singh]

To me, being on the safe side is following the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib and taking guidance of a Brahmgyani who got a place in Sachkhand to interpret teachings of guru sahib.

Raagmaala readers and non readers, both got a place in Sachkhand. That's it. 

And those 5 Brahmgyanis may also have differences in opinion. For Eg: Dharna way of Sant Isher Singh Ji is favoured by many but was also not recommended by Mahapurakhs because it involves singing of kachi bani in presence of Guru Sahib whereas Rehat Maryada allows Kirtan of 3 guru sahib written Granths and writings of Bhai Nand Lal and Bhai Gurdaas Ji. Still Sant Isher Singh Ji is in Sachkhand, right? Same with Nanaksar waale Mahapurakh. Many don't like having fake pictures of Guru Nanak Dev Ji in presence of Guru sahib prakash. But still Baba Nand Singh Ji is in Sachkhand, praising Vaheguru with 4 sahibzaade. My point is that all those 5 Brahmgyanis will have differences in opinion on certain matters which is a testimony to Infinite Glory and Beyond Intellect Understanding of plays of Guru Sahib.

Bhul chuk maaf

Trimandeep Singh 

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

To me, being on the safe side is following the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib and taking guidance of a Brahmgyani who got a place in Sachkhand to interpret teachings of guru sahib.

Raagmaala readers and non readers, both got a place in Sachkhand. That's it. 

And those 5 Brahmgyanis may also have differences in opinion. For Eg: Dharna way of Sant Isher Singh Ji is favoured by many but was also not recommended by Mahapurakhs because it involves singing of kachi bani in presence of Guru Sahib whereas Rehat Maryada allows Kirtan of 3 guru sahib written Granths and writings of Bhai Nand Lal and Bhai Gurdaas Ji. Still Sant Isher Singh Ji is in Sachkhand, right? Same with Nanaksar waale Mahapurakh. Many don't like having fake pictures of Guru Nanak Dev Ji in presence of Guru sahib prakash. But still Baba Nand Singh Ji is in Sachkhand, praising Vaheguru with 4 sahibzaade. My point is that all those 5 Brahmgyanis will have differences in opinion on certain matters which is a testimony to Infinite Glory and Beyond Intellect Understanding of plays of Guru Sahib.

Bhul chuk maaf

Trimandeep Singh 

Daas understands your point, but GURBANI is our SATGURU. Any doubt on any GURBANI is a much BIGGER issue as compared to the other issues, which you mentioned in the post above.

JFYI, Dharna wala kirtan is NOT Kachi Bani. If that is Kachi Bani, then Dhadi Vaaran and Kavishar (which were both started by our Satgurus) themselves were also Kachi Banis.

Also, the photo used at Nanaksar is NOT a fake photo. It was made under the supervision of a Gurmukh Brahamgyani (Sant Baba Nand Singh jee Maharaaj). 

If you want to discuss the above two issues in more details, please post in the relevant topic or you can start a new topic, if you want.

Thanks a lot

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Trimandeep Singh]

21 hours ago, paapiman said:

Also, the photo used at Nanaksar is NOT a fake photo. It was made under the supervision of a Gurmukh Brahamgyani (Sant Baba Nand Singh jee Maharaaj).

Please can you tell the whole story. Did Baba Nand Singh Ji give details of the face of Guru Nanak Dev Ji to a painter? I am not countering your point, but in my innocence, is it the truth? 

And even if the photo is real, we are not photo worshippers. It may help while remembering guru sahib during naam Simran but still why to bow in front of it? We bow before guru sahib and shastars, not photos.

I would request you to clear this point. My above points may be wrong (except photo worshipper one).

Kirpa karo ji 

Trimandeep Singh

[Ragmaala]

46 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

It may help while remembering guru sahib during naam Simran

You have answered yourself right here. Anything that helps us remember our beloved Guru Ji during Naam Simran , deserves respect. Its a Khed of Pyar. Photo is a tool and an aid to assist. Once you have the real Darshan , the need for photo is gone. Then when you close your eyes you will see Guru Nanak ji everywhere, like Sant Waryam Singh ji ratwara sahib did.  

People had same doubts about photo even during Baba ji's time but they returned satisfied when Baba Ji explained to them. Some were fortunate to even have darshan of Guru Nanak Sahib Ji. 

 

 

[Trimandeep Singh]

2 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

You have answered yourself right here. Anything that helps us remember our beloved Guru Ji during Naam Simran , deserves respect. Its a Khed of Pyar. Photo is a tool and an aid to assist. Once you have the real Darshan , the need for photo is gone. Then when you close your eyes you will see Guru Nanak ji everywhere, like Sant Waryam Singh ji ratwara sahib did.  

People had same doubts about photo even during Baba ji's time but they returned satisfied when Baba Ji explained to them. Some were fortunate to even have darshan of Guru Nanak Sahib Ji. 

 

 

Yes, if it helps us, it does deserve respect. But, I don't think it justifies bowing in front of photos. Please can you tell the story of this 'real' photo of Guru Nanak Sahib.

Trimandeep Singh 

[Ragmaala]

Baba Nand Singh Ji was asked by his murshad/teacher Baba MahaHarnam Singh Ji Bhucho wale to have a portrait of Guru Nanak Sahib prepared which most accurately symbolizes Guru Sahib. There were many portraits of Guru Nanak Sahib in which he is seen pointing upwards, eyes rolled up, etc. Baba Ji wanted a picture in which when ever you look at the photo , it seems as if Guru Sahib is looking right at you.  So Baba Nand Singh Ji according to the hukam of his Murshad/ teacher gave some pointers to a painter in Jagraon on how the painting should look . The painter made several versions before Baba ji finally approved the painting that most accurately symbolized Guru Sahib. In one version of sakhi, it is also said that the painter had the darshan of Guru Sahib which helped him in making the painting.  

Gurbani says  tere banke loyan dant risala sohne nakk jinne lamde vala, kanchan kaya soyne ki dhala....

The Golden prakash and the golden clothes are based on kanchan kaya sone ki dhala. This is something that can be experienced by those who have had the darshan or practical experience. It was very interesting to note when I came across the practical experience of Bhai Dharmjit Singh Gurmat Meditation who talked about his exprience of Golden Parkash, and in anyway he is not related to Nanaksar Samparda. 

One hand has mala in it, it symbolizes Bhagti, and to do Bhagti. The other hand is hidden. 

One foot is exposed with padam in it, this is for Sikhs to meditate upon and do sewa of. The other foot is hidden, and is for everyone else(other creation) besides humans to do sewa of.  

The photo is more of a symbolic representation, to do dhyana of charan kamal , and use as an aid, as a reminder to think about Guru Ji, and as a beginner. , 

imo I also want to mention that no one can create an exact photo of Nirankar Rabb Ji Guru Nanak Sahib, but its more of a symbolic aid to help devotees. And there have been countless stories in past who had darshan of Guru Nanak Sahib through the photo during Baba Nand Singh Ji and Baba Ishar Singh Jis times. 

 

One time a devotee brought a saroop of Guru Nanak Sahib which was not the same painting. Baba ji closed his eyes and bowed to it. Someone asked why did you bow to it, its not even a true saroop of Guru Sahib. Baba Nand Singh ji, the greatest Brahmgyani of all, whose name is mentioned by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Sau Sakhi as a lead, Nand Singh Garja Singh Aadi Jin laaj panth ki saaji...said that whatever reminds us of our beloved Guru Ji deserves respect and bowing down to. 

So if you dont bow down to a photo, that's fine. No one will force you. But its not the absolute right thing to do either. Hopefully, with time you will realize. 

I also came across another person who is not related to Nanaksar, Mangal Singh Dhillon youtube channel. He talks about his conversations with God, how he came across a divine power, a divya purush Omkar Ji maharah. He told him that real saroop of Guru Nanak Sahib resembles the paintings in Nanaksar Jagraon. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Trimandeep Singh]

If the photos of guru sahib (fake or real, whatever) remind us of guru sahib then why can't we also make a murti of guru sahib which resembles the one Baba Nand Singh Ji approved? 

If a photo can, then the murti can also remind us of Guru sahib. But if people start bowing to it, do you think it will be tolerated by Jathedars? We proudly say that Sikhism is free of empty rituals.

ਕਹਾਭਇਓਜੋਅਤਹਿਤਚਿਤਕਰਬਹੁਬਿਧਸਿਲਾਪੁਜਾਈ॥
Of what use is the worship of the stones with devotion and sincerity in various ways?

ਪ੍ਰਾਨਥਕਿਓਪਾਹਨਕਹਪਰਸਤਕਛੁਕਰਿਸਿਧਨਆਈ॥੧॥
The hand became tired of touching the stones, because no spiritual power accrued.

ਅਛਤਧੂਪਦੀਪਅਰਪਤਹੈਪਾਹਨਕਛੂਨਖੈਹੈ॥

Rice, incense and lamps are offered, but the stones do not eat anything,

ਤਾਮੈਂਕਹਾਂਸਿਧਹੈਰੇਜੜਤੋਹਿਕਛੂਬਰਦੈਹੈ॥੨॥
O fool! where is the spiritual power in them, so that they may bless you with some boon.2.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Trimandeep Singh 

[Ragmaala]

7 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said:

If the photos of guru sahib (fake or real, whatever) remind us of guru sahib then why can't we also make a murti of guru sahib which resembles the one Baba Nand Singh Ji approved? 

Why would you want to make a murti ? Have you even read my post and contemplated upon it.  Why would you want to make a murti when you can have real Darshana of Guru Nanak Sahib? Why would you want to get stuck to a stone ? The point is to go beyond the photo ultimately. I don't think you understood what I was trying to say. 

Your thinking is very rigid. You need to open up but that will happen with time and experience. Good Luck!

[mahanpaapi]

[GurjantGnostic]

[paapiman]

59 minutes ago, GurjantGnostic said:

Beautiful picture bro. Thanks a lot for sharing.

 

ਬਾਂਕ ਬਜ੍ਰ ਬਿਛੁਓ ਬਿਸਿਖ ਬਿਰਹ ਬਾਨ ਸਭ ਰੂਪ ॥

ਜਿਨ ਕੋ ਤੁਮ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੀ ਭਏ ਜਗਤ ਕੇ ਭੂਪ ॥੨੫॥

 

Btw, this thread has gone off-topic. @sarabatam

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

[paapiman]

@GurjantGnostic - What's that in your display pic bro? That also looks amazing too.

Thanks a lot

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[GurjantGnostic]

6 minutes ago, paapiman said:

@GurjantGnostic - What's that in your display pic bro? That also looks amazing too.

Thanks a lot

 

Bhul chuk maaf

It's a Khanda like sword used by American Indians made from jungle hard wood with obsidian shards embedded on both edges. 

[GurjantGnostic]

13 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Beautiful picture bro. Thanks a lot for sharing.

 

ਬਾਂਕ ਬਜ੍ਰ ਬਿਛੁਓ ਬਿਸਿਖ ਬਿਰਹ ਬਾਨ ਸਭ ਰੂਪ ॥

ਜਿਨ ਕੋ ਤੁਮ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੀ ਭਏ ਜਗਤ ਕੇ ਭੂਪ ॥੨੫॥

 

Btw, this thread has gone off-topic. @sarabatam

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

Woops. The image was supposed to have the caption "Tera Murti". 

Amen bro. Whoever posted that online originally has blessed us all. I googled Shastars displayed to get an image to post to say, we have murti already in a way the Gurus way. 

Then I counted the Shastars after I had selected that photo and I realized woh... there's thirteen Shastar there. Vaheguru it is Tera Murti!

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, GurjantGnostic said:

obsidian shards

What do you mean by that bro?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, GurjantGnostic said:

Woops. The image was supposed to have the caption "Tera Murti". 

You mean "TERI MURTI" right?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[GurjantGnostic]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

You mean "TERI MURTI" right?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Thank you bro. I certainly did. I'm ignorant still. 

[GurjantGnostic]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

What do you mean by that bro?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Instead of metal blades they had double sided war clubs shaped like a wooden Khanda and in a groove on both sides they would take shards of obsidian and pitch then into place resulting in a sword with a blade thickness at entry of about an atom thick then widening. The end result is absolutely effective.