Gupt Singh Posted August 25, 2003 Report Share Posted August 25, 2003 How comes there are no really old accounts/rehatnamas of women being called "kaur" or given khanda de paul? Like Mata Sahib Kaur is called Mata Sahib Devan in her hukamnamas and old accounts? Can someone clever provide any old historical sources.......... (btw im not against women taking amrit (duh) ive just never seen any historical stuff) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jassa Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 slightly off topic... but kaur actually means prince not princess....a common misconception...ne1 knw y?? i read on another board dat it was an attempt to give the kaurs more say in the courtroom...as princes were more respectd than princesses??? i dunno...mayb sum1 wid knwledge cn answa 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kaur1699 Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Fateh Ji, Yea, I've heard the same that Kaur actually means Prince... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Apparently Kaur is another version of the word Kanwar which means Prince GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowest of the low singhni Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 yeh..it is - i looked it up in the dictionary ...exciting life i have, eh? :roll: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted August 26, 2003 Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 Gur Fateh to All!!! From what little I have read, I would have to agree that Kaur does not begin to appear as the name of Sikh women until around the mid-late 18th century. I am not personally aware of any evidence of Mata Sundari ji or Mata Sahib Devan being referred to as Mata Sundar Kaur or Mata Sahib Kaur prior to 20th century literature (Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha appearing to be a key scholar associating name Kaur to Mata Sahib Devan's name). Kaur, does indeed mean Prince and a famous Sikh Kaur (male) was the formidable Brahm-Giani Akali Kaur Singh Nihang. (Incidently, if anyone has any information, or access to the works of this great Akali-Nihang-Khalsa-Singh, please do let me know). The numerous hukamnamas from the two Mata jis reference them as Mata Sundari ji or Mata Sahib Devi ji with no mention of Kaur. Nor are there any specific instructions in the Rehitnamas or other historical documents to name Sikh females as Kaurs following the Amrit ceremony. It has recently become a trend refer to Mata Sahib Devan as Sahib Kaur and Mai Bhago as Bhag Kaur. From what I have read, the first Kaurs we find in Sikh history are the females in the families of Misl Sardars or in the household of Ranjit Singh. Given that the present Rehit Maryada (standardised by Singh Sabha leaders) is formed from cumulative additions over a period of time, for instance, the earliest Rahitnamas mention either five weapons or three kakaar (Kachh, Kes, Kirpan) as Treh-Mudra (Kara and Kangha seem to have come later) and gievn recent attempts by some to include Keski as one of the Kakaars, it is possible that Kaur for Sikh females as a compulsory part of the name may have been propagated by the Singh Sabha leaders. I request that any oversight on my part in the foregoing or foolish comments be forgiven and should anyone know of more appropriate expalnations for the Mata Sahib Devan and Mata Sundari not using Kaur as second name, please advise accordingly. Gur Bar Akaaal!!!! References (to Hukamnamas):- Dr Ganda Singh and Punjabi University Patiala collected these Hukamnamas, one of which is provided below written to Bhai Dunna, Bhai Sabha, Bhai Aala from the 1999 edition of the book "Hukamname" edited by Dr Ganda Singh and published by Punjabi University Patiala. (Page 209, Hukamnam No.74) Sri Akal Purkh ji ka khalsa sri Mata Sahab Devi ji agya hai. Bhai Dunna, Bahi Sabha, Bhai Aala, Bhai Bakhata, Bhai Ladha sarbat kabila Rame Phool ke ka. Guru rakhe. Guru Guru japana. Janam swarna. Meri Bahut khusi hai. Tusi mere putar farjand ho. Guru tuhadi pat rakhe. Bhai Dunna, Sabha, tusi jo asadi valon fir rahe ho ar kar bheta langar no kadi kuchh nahi bhejde kia tusi Mata Sundari de bakhre aye ho. Asan tuhade ghar no niras nah kia. Guru ka ghar iko kar janana. Tusada bhala hosi. Tusadi seva dargah Guru ki thai pausi. Seva doha val iko jehi karni. Tusada bahut bhala hosi. Translation: The Khalsa of Akal Purakh ji. This is at the order of Mata Sahab Devi ji. Bhai Dunna, Bahi Sabha, Bhai Aala, Bhai Bakhata, Bhai Ladha and the entire clan of Rama and Phool. May Guru protect you. Recite Guru Guru. Life would be fruitful(spiritually,translator). I am happy at you. You are my dear sons. May Guru protect your honour. Bhai Dunna, Sabha, that you are turning back from me and never send any offerings/contributions for Langar are you somehow separately related to Mata Sundari. I never disappointed your clan(house). Consider Guru's house as one. You would gain merit. Your service/contributio would be in place in the Guru's Dargah. You should serve both sides equally. You would gain much merit. The above would seem to indicate that even over 20 years after Guru ji passed away both Mata jis were known as Mata Sahib Devi and Mata Sundari. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted August 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2003 yeh interesting..... are there any historical accounts of women getting amrit in guru jis time (mata sahib devan/kaur obviously but i havent seen a reference)....cuz a naamdhari website sed NO.....n i cudnt think of any examples that were explicitly documented 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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