Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 7 minutes ago, paapiman said: The below verses are from SRI UGGARDANTI SAAB JEE. Bhul chuk maaf ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥ ਐ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਮਾਤਾ ਮੇਰੀ ਪੁਕਾਰ=ਬੇਨਤੀ ਸੁਣੋ । My Bhavani Ma, please listen to my plea. ਕਰਹੁ ਦਾਸ ਪਰ ਮਿਹਰ ਅਪਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਾਸ ਪਰ ਵੱਡੀ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਡੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੋ । Bestow great blessings on your slave. Where is it saying he was making this plea while doing a Havan? Trimandeep Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥ ਐ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਮਾਤਾ ਮੇਰੀ ਪੁਕਾਰ=ਬੇਨਤੀ ਸੁਣੋ । My Bhavani Ma, please listen to my plea. ਕਰਹੁ ਦਾਸ ਪਰ ਮਿਹਰ ਅਪਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਾਸ ਪਰ ਵੱਡੀ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਡੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੋ । Bestow great blessings on your slave. Where is it saying he was making this plea while doing a Havan? Trimandeep Singh ਹਮਨ means HAVAN (please see below from Mahan Kosh). ਹਮਨ - hamana - हमन ਦੇਖੋ, ਹਵਨ Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥ ਐ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਮਾਤਾ ਮੇਰੀ ਪੁਕਾਰ=ਬੇਨਤੀ ਸੁਣੋ । My Bhavani Ma, please listen to my plea. ਕਰਹੁ ਦਾਸ ਪਰ ਮਿਹਰ ਅਪਰੰ ਅਪਾਰੇ ॥ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਾਸ ਪਰ ਵੱਡੀ ਤੋਂ ਵੱਡੀ ਮਿਹਰ ਕਰੋ । Bestow great blessings on your slave. Where is it saying he was making this plea while doing a Havan? Trimandeep Singh Mukh Arth of "Haman" is HAVAN. Therefore, One possible ARTH of the above verse is Bhavani jee, please listen to my plea (via HAVAN). Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: ਸੁਣਹੁ ਤੁਮ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਹਮਨ ਕੀ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ॥ ਐ ਭਵਾਨੀ ਮਾਤਾ ਮੇਰੀ ਪੁਕਾਰ=ਬੇਨਤੀ ਸੁਣੋ । My Bhavani Ma, please listen to my plea. Why does it say Bhavani MA in the above translation? Where is the word for "mother" in the above verse? Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, paapiman said: Why does it say Bhavani MA in the above translation? Where is the word for "mother" in the above verse? Bhul chuk maaf At a deeper level, Guru sahib is not asking Durga but Akaal Purakh who is creator of Bhavani. Guru sahib has used 'Maa' for Akaal Purakh also. ਅਨੰਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਮੇਰੀ ਮਾਏ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਮੈ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ I am in ecstasy, O my mother, for I have found my True Guru. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 16 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said: What? Guru sahib has mentioned doing yags along with all types of prevalent practices that are considered FRUITLESS and KARAMKAAND by Gurbani. If YOU are going to reject Yags/Havans, based on the verses which you posted, then YOU will also have to REJECT Charity work and doing mercy on others. ਗਜਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਧਰਮਣੰ ॥The performance of the religious act of giving elephants etc. in charity ਦਯਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਕਾਮਣੰ ॥He may perform the works of mercy etc., and magic Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: At a deeper level, Guru sahib is not asking Durga but Akaal Purakh who is creator of Bhavani. Sri Satguru jee is asking AKAAL SHAKTI (The Power of Sri Waheguru jee) for help. ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤਾਏ ॥ Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, paapiman said: If YOU are going to reject Yags/Havans, based on the verses which you posted, then YOU will also have to REJECT Charity work and doing mercy on others. ਗਜਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਧਰਮਣੰ ॥The performance of the religious act of giving elephants etc. in charity ਦਯਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਕਾਮਣੰ ॥He may perform the works of mercy etc., and magic Bhul chuk maaf Guru sahib has said charities are useless in Sri Tav Prasad Saviyye too. This doesn't mean we shouldn't do them. People think by offering charities, going to teeraths, doing Yagya, they can please God and get Mukti. But in this bhagti sense, all these practices mentioned in verse of Gyan Parbodh I quoted like yagyas, charities, going to forests, wearing saintly clothes etc are useless, bear no fruit. Only naam goes with you Trimandeep Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 minute ago, paapiman said: Sri Satguru jee is asking AKAAL SHAKTI (The Power of Sri Waheguru jee) for help. ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਵਰਤਾਏ ॥ Bhul chuk maaf When did I deny it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 9 minutes ago, paapiman said: If YOU are going to reject Yags/Havans, based on the verses which you posted, then YOU will also have to REJECT Charity work and doing mercy on others. ਗਜਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਧਰਮਣੰ ॥The performance of the religious act of giving elephants etc. in charity ਦਯਾਦਿ ਆਦਿ ਕਾਮਣੰ ॥He may perform the works of mercy etc., and magic Bhul chuk maaf So what have you concluded from the verses of Sri Gyan Parbodh I posted? Trimandeep Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 minute ago, Trimandeep Singh said: So what have you concluded from the verses of Sri Gyan Parbodh I posted? Trimandeep Singh One main instruction from those verses is that NAAM is very important and it is IMPOSSIBLE to know the limits of Sri Waheguru jee. It is important to do DHARMIK KARAMS, without any ego. If you do a DHARMIK KARAM (including Sikh Rituals) and then BRAG about doing them, then that Karam becomes KARAM KAND. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 8 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: When did I deny it? Daas expanded on your explanation. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 12 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: But in this bhagti sense, all these practices mentioned in verse of Gyan Parbodh I quoted like yagyas, charities, going to forests, wearing saintly clothes etc are useless, bear no fruit. Only naam goes with you But that does NOT mean that we should NOT do Havans, NOT do Charity work, NOT wear religious clothes, NOT be merciful, etc. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, paapiman said: But that does NOT mean that we should NOT do Havans, NOT do Charity work, NOT wear religious clothes, NOT be merciful, etc. Bhul chuk maaf Didn't I already say it here? 17 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: Guru sahib has said charities are useless in Sri Tav Prasad Saviyye too. This doesn't mean we shouldn't do them. 18 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: But in this bhagti sense, all these practices mentioned in verse of Gyan Parbodh I quoted like yagyas, charities, going to forests, wearing saintly clothes etc are useless, bear no fruit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: Didn't I already say it here? So why did you post those verses here? Maybe I am wrong, but Daas thought that you were using those verses to REJECT the Sikh ritual of Havan. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulfinder Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 hour ago, paapiman said: The below verses are from SRI UGGARDANTI SAAB JEE. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 10 minutes ago, paapiman said: One main instruction from those verses is that NAAM is very important and it is IMPOSSIBLE to know the limits of Sri Waheguru jee. It is important to do DHARMIK KARAMS, without any ego. If you do a DHARMIK KARAM (including Sikh Rituals) and then BRAG about doing them, then that Karam becomes KARAM KAND. Bhul chuk maaf "If you do a DHARMIK KARAM (including Sikh Rituals) and then BRAG about doing them, then that Karam becomes KARAM KAND." That's completely absurd. Just differentiate between what I am saying. First a those karams which are actually useless and don't bear any fruit in both, worldly and spiritual sense like wandering in forest, doing yagyas, disguise in saintly clothes, do aarti Pooja (Brahmans one), worship idols etc. THESE ARE KARAM KAAND. Second are those karams which are a KARAM OF DHARAM but we get very less or no fruit if we brag. Eg: one can have ego of his bhagti due to which he will get less benefit. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN BHAGTI IS KARAM KAAND. ਅਨਿਕ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਕਰੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ॥ If someone performs great penance, while acting in selfishness and conceit, ਨਰਕ ਸੁਰਗ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ he shall be reincarnated into heaven and hell, over and over again. If you do a DHARMIK KARAM (including Sikh Rituals) and then BRAG about doing them, then that Karam becomes KARAM KAND. You said the above statement and I have proved it wrong with the pankti of Sri Sukhmani sahib Trimandeep Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: "If you do a DHARMIK KARAM (including Sikh Rituals) and then BRAG about doing them, then that Karam becomes KARAM KAND." That's completely absurd. Just differentiate between what I am saying. First a those karams which are actually useless and don't bear any fruit in both, worldly and spiritual sense like wandering in forest, doing yagyas, disguise in saintly clothes, do aarti Pooja (Brahmans one), worship idols etc. THESE ARE KARAM KAAND. Second are those karams which are a KARAM OF DHARAM but we get very less or no fruit if we brag. Eg: one can have ego of his bhagti due to which he will get less benefit. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN BHAGTI IS KARAM KAAND. ਅਨਿਕ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਕਰੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ॥ If someone performs great penance, while acting in selfishness and conceit, ਨਰਕ ਸੁਰਗ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ he shall be reincarnated into heaven and hell, over and over again. If you do a DHARMIK KARAM (including Sikh Rituals) and then BRAG about doing them, then that Karam becomes KARAM KAND. You said the above statement and I have proved it wrong with the pankti of Sri Sukhmani sahib Trimandeep Singh Gurparsaad, Daas can answer your concerns above, but we are going off-topic. Let's just stick to the topic. For Havan, we have evidence from Gurbani and Historical texts to prove that it is PART of Sikhism. Additionally, Nihangs, who are one of the Puratan Sampradas, do it. Even, Naamdharis and Udhasis (even though they are NOT part of mainstream Sikhism), do it. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 6 minutes ago, paapiman said: So why did you post those verses here? Maybe I am wrong, but Daas thought that you were using those verses to REJECT the Sikh ritual of Havan. Bhul chuk maaf Indeed those verses reject Havan/yagya. When you said, if you are rejecting Havan then you also have to reject Charities and Mercy. To that I replied that, all of the practices mentioned in that verse DON'T bear a fruit in spiritual sense. The verse is not talking about the benefits in worldly sense. Charities and mercy are good karams in worldly ense but don't come under Naam. If you don't jap naam but do charities, then these acts will be added in your good karams but wouldn't determine if you will get Mukti or not. FYI, there are 3 types of Karam- Bad Karam, Good Karam and Gurmat Karam. When we do bad deeds, they are added in Bad Karams Account, good deeds in Good Karams Account and NAAM in Gurmat Karams Account. As per Gurbani, Good deeds don't cut out our bad karams. Only Naam cuts out our Karam. ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਾਟੈ ਕੋਟਿ ਕਰਮ ॥੩॥੧॥ The Word of the Guru's Shabad eradicates the karma of millions of past actions. ||3||1|| However, Yagya/Heaven/Idol Worship don't fall in under any of the karams. Because they are FRUITLESS. (However, if after seeing an amrirdhari gursikh do idol worship, some other gullible Sikhs engage in it, then that amritdhari is gonna land in great trouble) Trimandeep Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Trimandeep Singh said: However, Yagya/Heaven/Idol Worship don't fall in under any of the karams. Because they are FRUITLESS. So you are telling me that doing a SIKH HAVAN, which involves Chanting of GURBANI MANTARS is FRUITLESS? Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 17 hours ago, paapiman said: Please watch the video (Katha of Sri Dasam Gurbani) below. Also, please read the description. Jhatka & Hawan Concept in Sri Dasam Granth Saheb - See Description - YouTube @Soulfinder Bhul chuk maaf @Trimandeep Singh - Did you read the description of the video above? If not, please read below. Quote ਝਟਕੇ ਅਤੇ ਯੱਗ ਕਿਓਂ ਹੁੰਦੇ ਨੇ? ਤੇ ਝਟਕੇ ਅਤੇ ਯੱਗ ਹੋਣੇ ਕਿਸਨੇ ਰੋਕੇ? ਭਾਓ ਕਿ ਓਹ ਕੌਣ ਸੀ ਜਿਸਨੇ ਆਹ ਗਲ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਭਰ ਚ ਫੈਲਾ ਤੀ ਕਿ ਜੀਵ ਹਿੰਸਾਂ ਕਰਨਾ ਤੇ ਯੱਗ ਕਰਨਾ ਪਾਪ ਹੈ? ਇਸਦਾ ਜਵਾਬ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਨਹੀ ਫੁਰਿਆ ਜੁਗਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਸਿਰਫ ਕਲਗੀਧਰ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਹੈ ਖਾਲਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਜੇ ਯੱਗ ਕਰਨੇ ਤੇ ਜੀਵ ਹਿੰਸਾ ਕਰਨਾ ਪਾਪ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਤਾਂ ਮਾਹਰਾਜ ਨੂੰ ਕੀ ਲੋੜ ਪਯੀ ਸੀ ਫਾਲਤੂ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ ਲਿਖਣ ਦੀ ਦਸਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਚ??? ਮਾਹਰਾਜ ਨੇ ਦੱਸਿਆ ਆ ਕਿ ਜੰਗ ਚ ਜਿੱਤ ਯੱਗ ਕਰਨ ਨਾਲ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਆ ਤੇ ਜੀਵ ਹਿੰਸਾ ਨਾਲ ਯੱਗ ਸਿਰੇ ਚੜਦੇ ਆ ਮੈ ਇਸ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਗ ਦੇ ਅਰਥ ਲਿਖ ਨਹੀ ਰਿਹਾ ਤਾਂ ਜੋ ਪੋਸਟ ਬਹੁਤ ਵਧ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਆ ਬਸ ਆਹ ਸੁਣ ਸਕਦੇ ਹੋ ਕਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਨੇ ਲਿਖ ਤਾ ਆ ਕਿ ਉਦੋਂ ਅਰਹੰਤ ਅਵਤਾਰ (ਜੈਨੀਆਂ ਦਾ ਗੁਰੂ) ਨੇ ਜੀਵ ਹਿੰਸਾ ਤੇ ਯੱਗ ਰੁਕਵਾ ਤੇ ਸੀ ਅਤੇ ਐਸੀ ਵਿਚਾਰਧਾਰਾ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਤੀ ਸੀ ਕਿ ਜੋ ਹਵਨ ਯਾ ਝਟਕੇ ਕਰਦਾ ਸੀ ਓਹਦਾ ਮੂਰਖ ਲੋਕ ਮਜਾਕ ਬਣਾਉਦੇ ਸੀ ਅਜ ਵੀ ਆਹੀ ਆਲਮ ਆ ਨਿਹੰਗ ਸਿੰਘ ਤੇ ਹਜੂਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਸਿੰਘ ਆਹ ਜੰਗੀ ਰੀਤੀ ਚਲਾ ਰਹੇ ਆ ਪਰ ਮੂਰਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਹਾਸਾ ਆਉਂਦਾ ੩੦੦ ਸਾਲ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਹੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਾਂ ਨੇ ਬਚਨ ਕਰਤੇ ਸੀ ਪਰ ਖਾਲਸਾ ਅਜ ਵੀ ਕਾਯਮ ਆ ਮਰਿਆਦਾ ਉਪਰ ਦਸਮ ਬਾਣੀ ਪੜ੍ਹਨੀ ਬੜੀ ਜਰੂਰੀ ਆ ਜਿਨਾ ਨੂੰ ਜਿਗ੍ਯਾਸਾ ਹੈ, ਮੂਰਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਠੂਠਾ Unquote Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 hour ago, paapiman said: So you are telling me that doing a SIKH HAVAN, which involves Chanting of GURBANI MANTARS is FRUITLESS? Bhul chuk maaf Reading bani will always benefit but adding the element of Havan to it won't add to Kamaayi. Havan is useless, not bani. Trimandeep Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 1 hour ago, paapiman said: Gurparsaad, Daas can answer your concerns above, but we are going off-topic. Let's just stick to the topic. For Havan, we have evidence from Gurbani and Historical texts to prove that it is PART of Sikhism. Additionally, Nihangs, who are one of the Puratan Sampradas, do it. Even, Naamdharis and Udhasis (even though they are NOT part of mainstream Sikhism), do it. Bhul chuk maaf I have also given evidence from Gurbani to prove it is NOT part of Sikhism. Additionally, Damdami Taksal, which is one of the Puratan Sampradas, DON'T do it. Nanaksar doesn't do it. Even, AKJ (whose opinion you don't consider much important) DOESN'T do it. They try to follow lifestyle of Brahmgyani Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji. Also, probably Nihangs are the one of the few jathebandis in Khalsa Panth who do jhatka and yagya. It is also important to mention that some Tarna Dals (Nihangs) don't do jhatka but also don't consider it a qurehit (same for me). Naamdharis was a great jathebandi and had strict Rehat. However, they were kicked out when they made Mahapurakhs of their jatha equal to Guru Sahib. Udaasis are the same. They have produced more scholars than any other jathebandi. However, today they interpret Guru Granth Sahib Ji teachings in context of Vedas and consider Guru Sahib an incarnation of Vishnu Ji. Daas has respect for Udaasis because of their contribution to Khalsa but mentioning them to prove your point will only trigger a yawn. Trimandeep Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted June 1, 2021 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 17 hours ago, Trimandeep Singh said: If you can give any logic behind Havan that how does reading bani in front of fire benefit us, then it be helpful. Will it benefit more if one does a Havan? This is a good question. Daas still doesn't know the exact answer to this question. I might be wrong here, but Agni Devta is probably considered to be a POSTMAN of Sri Waheguru jee. So it is possible that he may be able to help us, when GURMAT HAVAN in done. The other elements also have significance in GURMAT. We already know the significance of WATER in Gurmat. It can be turned into Amrit. Well, AIR is very important for breathing. Jaaps can be done, with inhalation and exhalation in different sequences. It is also probably a good idea to sit on the ground (EARTH), while doing meditation. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trimandeep Singh Posted June 1, 2021 Report Share Posted June 1, 2021 3 hours ago, paapiman said: ਹਮਨ means HAVAN (please see below from Mahan Kosh). ਹਮਨ - hamana - हमन ਦੇਖੋ, ਹਵਨ Bhul chuk maaf Bhai sahib, which mahan Kosh are you referring to? In mahan Kosh, a third meaning, (ਅਸੀਂ, ਹਮ) is also mentioned which perfectly fits in the pankti you quoted. And if we say, in that pankti ਹਮਨ means ਹਵਨ then use of word ਕੀ becomes irrelevant. Trimandeep Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.