Jassa Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 Currently in probably 90% of gurdwareh and houses throughout the world our eternal Guru, Sri Guru Granth Sahib is not in its original form, and i dont mean by raagmala or any other argument people have cretated... Im talking about Lareevaar Saroop of our Guru...for thoise that dont know this it is the oiginal way our Guru Ji was written...with all the words joined together... nowadays out of mans convenience padchedd saroop(with akhars seperated) are now in great majority?? numerous gursikhs have stressed the importance of now changing the form of the bani given to us?? the interpretation of the padchedd saroop is done by man...and if guru ji wanted it to be done in that way would he not have written it out in padchedd?? if that is the case then why dont all gurdwareh adopt lariwaar saroop, or at least make an effort to teaching it so that this tradition does not die out. do you think this is rite?? n plz no comments on being talibanistic or anything...im looking for educated responses with knowledge of this topic.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh This is another controversy that Sikhi seems to be plagued with in the last 50 years. The Gurus gave us a hundred reasons to be united as Sikhs but we look for all the little ways that we can divide ourselves up into rival camps. Anyone looking at our religion would think that there are 24 million types of Sikhs because that seems to how many controversial disputes we have managed to rake up. The fact is that lariwar was the style of writing at the time of the Gurus meaning that all the letters were joined up. Most Guru Granth Sahibs are no paadh-chherh meaning that the different words are separated. This was done when the Guru Granth Sahib started to be printed rather than hand written. There is still a resolution on the SGPC books which states that no Paadh-cheerh Guru Granth Sahibs should not be printed. The SGPC resolution has been ignored because the Sikhs wanted a Guru Granth Sahib that is easier to read. The argument that had the Gurus wanted the Guru Granth Sahib to be paadh cheerh then they would have written it that way is pretty naive. That's like saying that if the Gurus wanted Gurbani to be translated then they would have got it done themselves. Paadh cheerh was the style of writing at that time and the Guru Arjan used that style to get the Guru Granth Sahib written. The Guru Granth Sahib is easier to read ( in my view ) now that it is paadh cheerh. If you read the lariwar then you will need to gain expert knowledge to be able to see where one word ends and another begins. The only difference between the two types is separation of the words. Nothing new is added and nothing is taken away. The problem is that many people take things to the extreme. Taking this argument that Guru Granth Sahib should remain lariwar then shouldn't we also stop printing the Guru Granth Sahib and have them all handwritten. How about translations in other languages, does the words of the Guru Granth Sahib remain Gurbani if they are translated into English ?. Surely the Gurbani CD Rom should also not be allowed since it takes the form different to the original Gurbani in written from. Strange as it may sound I actually had a discussion with a Sikh who said that very thing. That a CD Rom with the Guru Granth Sahib on it shows how lazy we have become. That fact that one can look up a Shabad in a nanosecond and read it's meaning in minutes was lost on him. There is a interesting story from the Autobiography of Bhagat Lakshman Singh. Bhagat Lakshman Singh was born into a Hindu family and converted to Sikhism and took Amrit at the age of 33 in 1895. When he became a Sikh his relatives mostly his cousins were leaders in the Anti-Sikh Arya Samaj. Through his newspaper The Khalsa, Bhagat Lakshman Singh carried on a ceaseless campaign against the Arya Samaj and their attempt through their publications to quote a few lines of Gurbani out of context to prove that the Gurus were Hindus. These quotes without page numbers or raga details were hard to find in the Guru Granth Sahib. At that time there were very few Gianis who would know the full verse by being told just one line of it. Bhagat Lakshman Singh approached Bhai Maya Singh the famous compiler of the first Punjabi dictionary to help him find a Giani would be able to locate the full Shabad from the few lines in the Arya Newspaper. He writes-; Bhai Maya Singh however was helpful. He introduced me to a blind Giani about sixty years old, Bhai Nihal Singh by name who, he said was just the man I wanted. This man proved to be a wonder. He knew by heart the whole of the Adi Granth and whenever I wanted him to point out the passage wherein a particular verse occurred he would ask me take up the volume of the Guru Granth Sahib, turn so many pages and read out the context. When to my astonishment I found the verses in their true setting. And my heart was filled with joy when I found that the full hymn confirmed that the holy Gurus did not believe in the the holy books of the Hindus or Muslims..... One day a verse needed to be traced but Giani Nihal Singh could not remember the Raga. He asked for a few days in which he would consult someone better informed. A couple of days later he returned smiling and asked me to step aside. The took the volume of the Guru Granth Sahib in his hands and weighed it and turned pages after pages. At length he reached a page which he made me read. He made me turn a few more pages and lo ! the very first hymn I read contained the line that I was looking for. In vain I asked for the name of his informant. But the Giani, for reasons best known to would not disclose it. Evidently another jewel, a scholarly man of great piety was living in retirement, unknown and uncared for or perhaps he did not want to be known. I gratitude I presented the blind Giani with a small purse containing only twenty five rupees for the trouble he had taken in visiting me for days and days in this connection. The good man took the amount, counted it and tied it in his turban and having done so, he took off his shoes and offered Ardas. He left me telling me that never such a big sum he had ever received. I closed the door after him and began to cry '" is this the price of a Sikh divine ( scholar ) of such a high order ?" I said to myself " "Has Guru Nanak's word come to be rated at this worth ?". But such was the case. Jassa Bhaiji, Sikhi has a host of problems with require a solution, whether to have paadh-chherh and lariwar are not one of them. GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jassa Posted August 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 thats a very good response..but what did the old have to do with it(sorry that genuinely through me off), but the story was touching. veerji i was not implying it to be a serious problem...just one that should be thought about... and i agree there are a great number of other factors which are hugely worrying to the panth... i just thought itd be sad to see the tradition of larivaar saroop and of singhs being able to read it dying out... either way id like to thank you for sharing your view.. Dassan Daas Vahegurooo ji ka khalsa Vahegurooo ji ki fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narsingha Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 Bikramjit Singh Could you please state your references/sources/evidence for the information you have presented so this may be followed up by those who wish to persue this further independently. Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 thats a very good response..but what did the old have to do with it(sorry that genuinely through me off), but the story was touching. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Jassa Bhaji, Sorry, the story was just my attempt to show how far technology has progressed. A hundred years ago you needed to seek out a learned Giani to locate the verse if you only knew a line of it. Now we only need to punch in a few words and we can access the verses containing these words in seconds. GurFateh Bikramjit 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCJS Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 I think we spend more time on controversies and fighting than actually practicing what Guru Granth Sahib teaches.... Harjas re mann gaaye hai...jo sangi hai tero... ausar beetiya jaat hai...kaho maan leyo mero.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 If we get bani and join it back up, we must understand the concept and what it is on about before we are able to read it. I.e we have to use our brains to Think what guru ji is saying instead of just reading blindly. For example. read the following paragraph. ifwegetbaniandjoinitbackup,wemustunderstandtheconceptandwhatitisonaboutbeforeweareabletoreadit. Whe reading the above, you had to use you brain, to break up the words and try to make sense of it. We can do blind reading with larivar, we must use our brains. People should aim, later on in life (if they want too, they dont have too, i just think its a good idea to,) to start at padd ched butmoveslowlyontolarivarthiswayweunderstandtheconceptsbetterbecausewehavetouseourbrain. ps. spaces taken out on purpose. Reading larivar takes more effort, butitwillbemorerewardingattheendwhenyouunderstadnwhattheguruissaying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jassa Posted August 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 Muggermanch dats a really good way of looking at it.... pcjs its nt about controversies...its just about tradition... maybe its not the most important thing in the world... but its involved with sikhi and its not a pointless argument so i dunno wat ppl r complainin bout this post 4? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted August 30, 2003 Report Share Posted August 30, 2003 A Larivaar Saroop can be printed that is easy to read; each Shabad alternating in colour.Like what the Hukamnama at www.panthkhalsa.org Check out: http://www.panthkhalsa.org/hukam.asp Notice at the bottom they use light blue then dark blue alternating.I wonder if a Larivaar Saroop like this exists?If it doesn't, it should.You would have Larivaar Saroop, that's easy to read! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCJS Posted September 1, 2003 Report Share Posted September 1, 2003 Jassa, I was referring to the quote from Bikram: This is another controversy that Sikhi seems to be plagued with in the last 50 years. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted September 1, 2003 Report Share Posted September 1, 2003 Notice at the bottom they use light blue then dark blue alternating.I wonder if a Larivaar Saroop like this exists?If it doesn't, it should.You would have Larivaar Saroop, that's easy to read! In this case we might as well split up the words, there is no difference. When reading bani, you are supposed to try to grasp the concept, just in any subject. A good way to do that is to joinallthewordstogetherbecasuethenyoumusthaveaslightclueonwhatitsonabout. if you go around chaning the colours its the same as having spaces. eg. joinallthewordstogetherbecasuethenyoumusthaveaslightclueonwhatitsonabout. you will notice that its was easier to read the second time. But i made it easier becasue i could split the words up for you, becasue i knew exactly what the sentence was. In Some places in the GGS, the words can be spilt at various points. This means, that a person who split the words did it with his understanding. I.e Padd Ched is an off-spring GGS of someone elses understanding. It may be correct, not saying it isnt. Unless of course there is a Padd Ched Bir from the time of the gurus, Is there?? I dont know. the colour thing is good for begginers, its easier to increase your vocab in gurmukhi. But if you want to read larrivar, then, the colour thing sort of takes the fun out. fateh ji. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted September 1, 2003 Report Share Posted September 1, 2003 readinginlarivaarwouldimplyknowledgeeducationandconcentrationwhichmostsgpcgranthisdon'thavebecausethey'refake. readinglarivarwouldkeepawayignorantgranthisbecausereadinglarivaarissodifficult. gotit :twisted: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted September 1, 2003 Report Share Posted September 1, 2003 Mugermach: the colour thing is good for begginers, its easier to increase your vocab in gurmukhi. But if you want to read larrivar, then, the colour thing sort of takes the fun out. Yes, you're correct, it would be good for beginners.You could have both types of Saroop.One for beginners and one for advanced. lalleshvari: readinginlarivaarwouldimplyknowledgeeducationandconcentrationwhichmostsgpcgranthisdon'thavebecausethey'refake. readinglarivarwouldkeepawayignorantgranthisbecausereadinglarivaarissodifficult. gotit Yes lalleshvari, I agree.We need literate Granthi. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mugermach Singh Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 lol, its amazing to see thatweallcantypewithoutusingspaces. Lertmakesalarivarenglishonsikhawareness.com.Thiswayanyonethatwantstoreadsomethingwillhavetomakeandeffort. Hangon,sinceihatereadingpleasedontdothis. readinginlarivaarwouldimplyknowledgeeducationandconcentrationwhichmostsgpcgranthisdon'thavebecausethey'refake. readinglarivarwouldkeepawayignorantgranthisbecausereadinglarivaarissodifficult. gotit knowledgeeducationandconcentrationahhhhhmyheadisstartingtohurtreadingthisnewversionEnglishivar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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