Jagmeet Singh needs to be made Tankhaiya For his Letter asking for Weapons Ban

[dalsingh101]

9 minutes ago, amardeep said:

So to summarise. Me and papiman are afraid and Dalsingh is tough and brave 

How about this as a summary:

Despite clear and indisputable evidence of a strong weapons culture being an integral part of Sikhi (including firearms) - some Sikhs appear to be terrified of the prospect of widespread weapon training in the panth which is inline with Khalsa ethos, with some Sikhs being less scared of this prospect. 

It doesn't take a genius to figure out which line of the divide you stand on. 

Colonialism, with its systematic disarming of Sikhs and their political power, led to a corruption of the original ethos which dwindled down to wearing small, non-functional symbolic knives instead of the original functional panj hathiaars with their associated training.

[paapiman]

19 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

some Sikhs appear to be terrified of the prospect of widespread weapon training in the panth which is inline with Khalsa ethos, with some Sikhs being less scared of this prospect. 

Widespread weapon (non-Firearms) training can still be done by Sikhs.

How common is that among Sikhs? How many Sikhs have you met, who are proficient in Shastar vidya?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

Then you have weapons to protect yourselves from them. 

Besides you can do other stuff with them. Like teach other apnay from  other countries how to use them (legally of course and making sure any terrorist type is weedled out). 

How is that going in the US? How many American Sikhs keep licensed weapons in their homes for self-defense? How many American Gurudwaras keep licensed weapons for self-defense?

We need to factor in the current poor condition of our community (as a whole), before supporting something which will harm us more, than be beneficial.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

This time Better than the first but still doesn’t do justice to our views. Papiman has raised some good arguments above regarding the US and the situation there.

 

But you making a political question on the arming of a whole Canadian population into a question of being afraid or not is just weird, stupid and unproductive. I’m out but you can continue with papiman who has raised some good points

[dalsingh101]

43 minutes ago, paapiman said:

How is that going in the US? How many American Sikhs keep licensed weapons in their homes for self-defense? How many American Gurudwaras keep licensed weapons for self-defense?

 

The whole point is that this needs to change. It says a lot that Sikhs are scared to defend their Gurdwaras despite being allowed to over there. 

[samurai2]

4 hours ago, amardeep said:

So to summarise. Me and papiman are afraid and Dalsingh is tough and brave 

Priceless..

sarcastic comments on someone who is abrupt and straight to the point.. compared to silence against the pappus and flowery people on here talking shite at times... 

The response on this topic indicates a clear distinction between a sikh and Singh's mentality. 

Its not an ego battle but the ultimate pursh is a sant sipahi... many here are just saintly peolple, they are not yodeh. 

"just" not being disrespectful..

Making weapons legal for a sikh in any country is a welcome all day

The fact they don't want weapons legal, just shows they are a bunch of rich boys who aint seen sh1te ..and live in a flowery world. 

 

 

[BhagatSingh]

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

But, you cannot deny the fact that we can greatly reduce the number of criminals having access to weapons, by banning them.

Where do you think, it is easier for a criminal/psychopath to acquire firearms (and then go on a killing spree)? US or Canada?

Well it'll be like Marijuana.

How hard was it to get it in Canada during the period it was banned?

It was actually rather easy.

But what it did was that it made criminals out of everyday people, some of who were suffering from diseases that are healed by marijuana.

And it drove Marijuana into the black market, which is unregulated. So you never knew what you are getting.

The same thing will happen with guns.

 

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

How common is that among Sikhs? How many Sikhs have you met, who are proficient in Shastar vidya?

Should you encourage or discourage our people to learn shastar vidya of guns?

So do you think you are encouraging or discouraging shastar vidya of guns amongst our people by banning the guns?

 

4 hours ago, amardeep said:

The fact that none of us can see ourselves in your summary shows that you’re way off in your analysis. But sure let’s just say we’re afraid if that makes you feel more of a tough man  

Dally is right. That's what both of your arguments boil down.

 

They boil down to - fear.

"Oh no can't let bad people get guns!"

"Oh no there aren't enough of us!"

 

And selfishness -

"Oh no let's ban guns because our community isn't good with them so let's vote to prevent other communities from protecting themselves"

 

All I am seeing is you saying that this is not an apt summary of your views but you have not clarified your views.

What more is there to your view other than fear and selfishness?

[paapiman]

57 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

They boil down to - fear.

There is a huge difference between bravery/courage (lack of fear) and irrational behaviour

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

What more is there to your view other than fear and selfishness?

There is rational realistic thinking behind the support of weapons (firearms) ban.

The fear is for the safety of other Sikhs, especially the older folks and the ones who are more into the Saintly aspect of Sikhism. Protecting the Saints is a prime duty of the Khalsa.

If firearms are permitted in western nations, the possibility of violent hate crimes against Sikhs (especially Amritdharis) increase. Daas doesn't want to see any Sikh blood to be spilled unnecessarily. We have already witnessed a genocide (in India) in our times.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

40 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Should you encourage or discourage our people to learn shastar vidya of guns?

So do you think you are encouraging or discouraging shastar vidya of guns amongst our people by banning the guns?

We are Canadians. So, let's first talk about what we have on the plate.

Shaster Vidya of non-firearm weapons is permitted in Canada. How many Sikhs have you met you practice it? Do you practice it? 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

And selfishness

That applies to your thinking too.

One cannot project his own mentality (warrior spirit in this case) on the whole community. If you do so, you are being selfish and just thinking from your own perspective, while ignoring what is best for the community.

As I have already mentioned, Daas loves weapons. If I lived in US (depending on the state laws), I would keep some on me and some in my vehicle for self-defense and the protection of the needy. But, if I expect all other Sikhs (based on our current situation) to behave in a similar fashion, I am just being plainly stupid.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

4 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

The whole point is that this needs to change.

Daas agrees, but the change won't just come by living in a country where firearms are legal. It's the mentality which needs to change. 

How will the mentality change? By connecting to the source of all power, which is Gurbani.

In the case of warrior spirit, it would be Dasam Gurbani.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

36 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Daas agrees, but the change won't just come by living in a country where firearms are legal. It's the mentality which needs to change. 

How will the mentality change? By connecting to the source of all power, which is Gurbani.

In the case of warrior spirit, it would be Dasam Gurbani.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

And Dasam Bani tells us to keep and train with firearms via Shasternaam Mala. Why support something that would ban/hinder that practice?

 

 

[amardeep]

Quote

"All I am seeing is you saying that this is not an apt summary of your views but you have not clarified your views.

What more is there to your view other than fear and selfishness?"

I usually dont find it motivating to participate in a conversation where people put words in my mouth or misrepresent what im saying. Whats the point in debating a complex topic of national security if its narrowed into being afraid or not?

But here is my take on it. America has a liberal weapons legislation and is THE ONLY western country in the world where you have frequent mass shootings and massacres taking place at schools, cinemas etc. There is no other country in the western world where tens of thousands of people are killed by guns within a few years.The easy acces to weapons means that conflicts quickly escalate. A conflict that would end up in fist fights in Europe will usually end with shootings in America. The problem is such that you can legally bring your guns into the cinema but you can't bring your own candy and popcorn!!

To my knowledge, Canada is a fairly peacefull country but they have the same problems as all other socities ie. depression, mental illnesses, xenophobia, hate crimes etc. By flooding the country with weapons you'll create US circumstances and violence will most likely escalate. Again, there is no other country in the Western world where you see such widespread violence as in the US!

For me it is not about fear. It is about responsobility. Sikhs of Canada are not a temporary minority only there to work and then head home to retire. Sikhs of Canada have been there for a century and will stay for many more centuries. For that reason they have a great responsobility in keeping the country stable and secure, and the decrease of widespread violence and gun violence is one such aspect. I dont see it as a gurmat practice to contribute to the flooding of weaponry in a non-violent, peaceful society thereby increasing the risk of fatal violence.

In terms of Sikhi, I assume there are gun training clubs in Canada as in Europe where Sikhs and other shastardhari Singhs can go and develop/train their skills as well as procedures of how to attain weapons legally in your own home. I know that is the case in many European countries (and oddly enough I know only one Singh in Europe who has actually done weapon training!!)

 

The whole "Yudh karai tab shant" ideology in Sikhi is in a context of opression, where the Sikhs are to arm themselves in order to fight tyranny. The ideology does not encompass flooding peacefull societies with weaponry for the sake of boosting and incresing mortality rates in case one such conflict is to happen. The whole "I better arm myself so I can defend myself against my neighbour" only means your neighbour will also arm himself.. And before you know it, everyone has weapons trying to defend themselves against everyone else.

 

Edited September 1, 2018 by amardeep

[amardeep]

Also in terms of Sikh history, the shastardhari aspect adapts to society. Guru Hargobind armed the Sikhs and raised an army because it was needed for warfare. During the tenure of the next three Gurus this army was slowly by slowly decreasing and then once the need arose it was again reassembled by Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj. Guru Har Rai kept an army of 2200 soldiers (small compared to the army of Guru Har Gobind) but there is no indication of any standing army of significant size during the rule of Guru Har Krishan and Guru Tegh Bahadur Maharaj. So in essence, the shastardhari notion can adapt to the circumstances of society in terms of what suits the Sikhs, and the people at large, the best.

[paapiman]

10 minutes ago, amardeep said:

Sikhs of Canada have been there for a century 

Actually, more than a century (close to 114 years), with the first Sikhs visiting Canada in 1897.

 

12 minutes ago, amardeep said:

I assume there are gun training clubs in Canada

Yes, we have shooting ranges here.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

16 minutes ago, amardeep said:

I usually dont find it motivating to participate in a conversation where people put words in my mouth or misrepresent what im saying. Whats the point in debating a complex topic of national security if its narrowed into being afraid or not?

But here is my take on it. America has a liberal weapons legislation and is THE ONLY western country in the world where you have frequent mass shootings and massacres taking place at schools, cinemas etc. There is no other country in the western world where tens of thousands of people are killed by guns every year. The easy acces to weapons means that conflicts quickly escalate. A conflict that would end up in fist fights in Europe will usually end up in high school shooting in America. The problem is such that you can legally bring your guns into the cinema but you can't bring your own candy and popcorn!!

To my knowledge, Canada is a fairly peacefull country but they have the same problems as all other socities ie. depression, mental illnesses, xenophobia, hate crimes etc. By flooding the country with weapons you'll create US circumstances and violence will most likely escalate. Again, there is no other country in the Western world where you see such widespread violence as in the US!

For me it is not about fear. It is about responsobility. Sikhs of Canada are not a temporary minority only there to work and then head home to retire. Sikhs of Canada have been there for a century and will stay for many more centuries. For that reason they have a great responsobility in keeping the country stable and secure, and the decrease of widespread violence and gun violence is one such aspect. I dont see it as a gurmat practice to contribute to the flooding of weaponry in a non-violent, peaceful society thereby increasing the risk of fatal violence.

In terms of Sikhi, I assume there are gun training clubs in Canada as in Europe where Sikhs and other shastardhari Singhs can go and develop/train their skills as well as procedures of how to attain weapons legally in your own home. I know that is the case in many European countries (and oddly enough I know only one Singh in Europe who has actually done weapon training!!)

 

The whole "Yudh karai tab shant" ideology in Sikhi is in a context of opression, where the Sikhs are to arm themselves in order to fight tyranny. The ideology does not encompass flooding peacefull societies with weaponry for the sake of boosting and incresing mortality rates in case one such conflict is to happen. The whole "I better arm myself so I can defend myself against my neighbour" only means your neighbour will also arm himself.. And before you know it, everyone has weapons trying to defend themselves against everyone else.

Excellent stuff.

[paapiman]

2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Oh no let's ban guns because our community isn't good with them so let's vote to prevent other communities from protecting themselves"

IMHO, most non-White communities (except the natives living in the reserves) as a whole, would support weapons ban. Even plenty of white people would prefer it.

Again, you are being selfish here. If you support legalization of firearms, you are not only putting your own community at risk, but other communities too. 

Now, let's assume that more than 70% of the Canadian Sikhs develop their warrior spirit due to a charismatic preacher. Even in that case, you would be selfish by supporting legalization. We might be good at protecting our own community, but who will protect the others? Not all religious communities have a strong warrior culture among them, like the one in our religion. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said:

And Dasam Bani tells us to keep and train with firearms via Shasternaam Mala. Why support something that would ban/hinder that practice?

 

 

How many Sikhs read this Gurbani on a daily basis? How many Sikhs know the meanings of those verses? First, our community needs to mentally prepare for any such legalization of firearms.

And btw, three out of the four weapon categories in Sri Shastar Naam Mala Sahib, are related to non-firearms. We can train with them for starters.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, paapiman said:

Daas agrees, but the change won't just come by living in a country where firearms are legal. It's the mentality which needs to change. 

How will the mentality change? By connecting to the source of all power, which is Gurbani.

In the case of warrior spirit, it would be Dasam Gurbani.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

@dalsingh101

Please don't get me wrong brother. I am not implying that we should only focus on reading Dasam Gurbanis and ignore weapons/marital arts training. Both are crucial in developing a Saint-Solider mentality, but IMHO, plenty of Gurbani chanting (lacking among many Sikhs) must be done before actual physical training sessions begin. This will help put a person in the right frame of mind on how to use the acquired knowledge.

 

Bhul chuk maaf.

[amardeep]

It is also important to notice that 'Sikh political theory' consists of two levels. Civil society (the practice of everyday Singhs) and the political (the practice at governmental level).

These two ARE NOT THE SAME. Sikhs at civil society level keep their rahit by paying daswandh, practice nitnem, keep their kesh, train shastars, do not lie etc. On a political and governmental level there is nothing to suggest that the same 'rules' apply in the sense that it becomes mandatory law for all to do nitnem and pay daswandh and if people do not do so, they will get punished for it.  Notions of rahit, daswandh etc apply at the civil level, - not political.  Should a sikh state forbid people to cut their hair?

I've never really come across any source that mixes the two levels such that it should become state law to arm the entire population. What Sikhs do at a personal level should not always translate into state level.

[Soulfinder]

2 hours ago, paapiman said:

How many Sikhs read this Gurbani on a daily basis? How many Sikhs know the meanings of those verses? First, our community needs to mentally prepare for any such legalization of firearms.

And btw, three out of the four weapon categories in Sri Shastar Naam Mala Sahib, are related to non-firearms. We can train with them for starters.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Veer ji i heard that in nihang dals like Budha Dal they do Shastar Pooja with all the shastars wash them use dhoof jyot and read banis like Chandi Di Vaar, Shastar Naam Mala, Ugardanti and other banis around them as they get shakti power when bani is read near by.

[Soulfinder]

@paapiman veer ji i don't think weapons should be made legal as in the uk there is always news headlines about knife crime as it is really rough london is now to live in. 

 

So i agree with you veer ji.

 

I do think that nihang dal should do shastar pooja as its purtan maryada.

 

Here is a few examples i found online related to the maryada.

 

http://sikh-reality.blogspot.com/2010/10/nine-nights-of-nauratey-and-tenth-of.html?m=1

 

https://m.facebook.com/652447751445011/photos/a.654586217897831.1073741831.652447751445011/995158367173946/?type=3&_ft_=top_level_post_id.995158367173946%3Atl_objid.995158367173946%3Athid.652447751445011%3A306061129499414%3A69%3A1420099200%3A1451635199%3A-8407892146641644402&__tn__=E

 

http://kamalroopsingh.blogspot.com/2012/11/a-translation-of-shastravidia-book-by.html?m=1

 

Bansavalinama written in 1769 CE by Kesar Singh Chibber also mentions the celebrating of Dusshera. Kesar Singh Ji writes:

ਦੁਸਹਰੇ ਦੇ ਦਿਨ ਪੂਜਾ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦੀ ਕਰਨ । ਚੰਡੀਪਾਠ ਕੀਤਾ ਰਸਨਾ ਦਾ ਉਚਾਰਨ ।

On the days of Dusshera, worship your weapons. From your mouths you should recite the ballads of Chandi [Chandi Chritars and Chandi Di Vaar].

ਧੂਪ ਦੀਪ, ਪੁਸ਼ਪ, ਬਹੁਤ ਹੋਵੈ ਸੁਗੰਧਿ । ਕੇਸਰ, ਚੰਦਨ, ਚਉਰ ਝੁਲੰਤ ।੩੯੦।

[Worship your weapons by using] lots of Incense, Gee-lamps, flowers and nice fragrances. [use] Saffron, Sandalwood and a Wisk to wave [above your weapons].

- Bansavalinama pg. 161 ਬੰਸਾਵਲੀਨਾਮਾ ਪਨਾ ੧੬੧

 

 

[Soulfinder]

@paapiman veer ji here is a katha track i found on shastar pooja.

 

 

 

SIKHISM IN SNIPPITS - Shastar Puja - Sant Giani Inderjit Singh (Raqbe Wale) ( 128kbps ).mp3

[sarabatam]

I don't think he is speaking from sikh perspective when he  is asking for ban of weapons but rather speaking  as an cdn politican who happen to be a sikh. He represents his party, his party policies and his constituents first as  politician than anything else. In fact, to expect him to have sikh interest while endorsing ndp policies is an fallacy itself, everything needs to be looked at the context.