Is Sikhism a religion

[amardeep]

Angy please answer the following few questions:

• Can you name 3 Sikhs prior to the British Raj that you feel were on the right path and understood Sikhi? (and dont just mention names - provide evidence that these Sikhs belived the same as what you consider right Sikhi today)
• if grammar is the way forward, then why did neither the Gurus nor any of their followers write any teeka that focuses on grammar and it's importance? Did the Gurus ever encourage a study of the grammar of Gurbani
• If you dont believe in the sampradas, was there any institution of the past that you believe were right in teaching Sikhi?

Edited November 16, 2018 by amardeep

[tva prasad]

15 hours ago, angy15 said:

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@Tva Prasad  Logic is very much a important part of Sikhi Guru Nanak had incorporated logic, reason t within his spirituality .Infact Logic is a antithesis to the notion of blind faith.

Blind faith is indeed praised in both Sikh and Vedanta traditions. Look at Shabri, Bhagat Dhanna, Bhagat Dhruv, etc. They had complete faith in god, faith comes from love and true love is blind. Imagine if Shabri had believed everyone else that Ram Chandar would never come, wouldn't that be logic? Imagine if Bhagat Dhanna never believed that the rock was god, wouldn't that be logic? Imagine again, if Bhagat Dhruv had used logic and never believed that god would come to earth to give him his father's love and his mum the proper status of a queen. 

When we look at the sakhi of Guru Nanak he refused to wear the Janeiyu he used logic and reason to  prove his point.

He told to the Pandit the kind of Janeiyu he likes to wear 

ਦਇਆ ਕਪਾਹ ਸੰਤੋਖੁ ਸੂਤੁ ਜਤੁ ਗੰਢੀ ਸਤੁ ਵਟੁ ॥ ਆਸਾ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ:

Make compassion the cotton, contentment the thread, modesty the knot and truth the twist.

So Guruji says: “I prefer the janeiyu made of from the cotton of compassion, from the threads of contentment and one that is knotted in morality with truth.”

ਏਹੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਜੀਅ ਕਾ ਹਈ ਤ ਪਾਡੇ ਘਤੁ ॥

This is the sacred thread of the soul; if you have it, then go ahead and put it on me.

So, if you can, Paanday, then weave this sort of Janeiyu for the soul and for the mind.

Such a Janeiyu is for all humanity. It will raise the spirituality of all humans regardless of gender, creed, cast; to becoming one with humanity and becoming one with God.

Such powerful logic,  and so convincing an argument!

To me that sounds less like a logical and more of a spiritual argument. Just look at the context, pundits are generally focused on spirituality, so why would Guru Nanak use a logical argument? Doesn't sound right does it?

Secondly I don't understand what you mean that "Missionaries are influenced by Western Science".

It was the British that introduced the term "Indian mythology" prior to that everyone knew it was the ancient history of India. Western logic is based on arguments. The facts often get distorted, e.g. theory of evolution. It is true that monkeys possess features like ours, but really? 

In reality, these missionaries who hide behind "logic" (they think it is logic but it is manmat because it is their mind that is causing them to doubt spiritual philosophies and traditions like Vedanta and the power of the Gurus- miracles performed by the Gurus). They are preaching manmat in the name of gurmat. I think that's why so many people listen to them because they are not trying to do the very difficult task of stilling the mind but rather engaging it, engaging the mind seems much easier, right? We are supposed to control/still the mind, but they are not promoting that. Blind faith is the highest form of love. 

We are living in the 21st century  We are living in a scientific world ,people have become more logical and science oriented .Spirituality will not mean anything to them unless it is offered as  science.

The world is moving towards destruction, I think we should too (sarcasm). Science nowadays, is purely based on the human mind. If you have an argument and you can find evidence, even if it is out of context everyone will believe it. We are so gullible even though we act as if we are not. Not saying science in itself is bad.

Personally i dont see any conflict between Science and Gurbani.

Science in the ancient times went hand in hand with spirituality, whereas science now is like the rival of spirituality. I think the true for form of science goes hand in hand with spirituality because the inverse was created in a spiritual way, therefore the universe is spiritual. In Vedanta science is used in a spiritual way. 

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

@Tva Prasad :Firstly thank you for giving a great methodology  of making Gurbani Interpetation.

You should thank Mr Doaba since he is the one who wrote that post. 

Secondly can you explain which part of the Gurbani interpretation principle mentioned below  does Missionaries don't follow . Infact Missinoaries are expert  when using Grammar Analysis and Antreev Arth .

They don't follow the literal meaning. The literal meaning is also a very important part of interpreting Gurbani. The soul is important for the body just as the body is important for the soul. 

 

[angy15]

20 hours ago, amardeep said:

I think you need to spend some more time studying what Vedanta is. A lot of the things you ascribe to the Gurus can already be found in Vedanta, - that is why the Nirmale and others started to interpret Sikhi in this lense. This does not mean that Sikhs are Hindus – but it is a common framework to interpret reality.

For instance, many people think that Sikhi rejects the Vedas because Sikhi puts naam and Brahmgian at the front while it limits the importance of the Vedas. This stance, however, is a key component of Vedanta!!! The Mundaka Upanishad divides wisdom into two categories: The higher and the lower. The higher form of wisdom is Brahmgyan while the lower is knowledge of Vedas, phonetics, grammar, etymology, meter, astronomy and the knowledge of sacrifices and rituals.  This atittude towards Vedas is entirely in line with both Vedanta and Gurmat.

In this regard, your understanding of Jup can most likely easily be found within the terminology of Vedanta and is not unique to Gurmat. And terms like karma, samsara, jeev, brahman, maya, prakrit etc are all from the Vedantic corpus of philosophy.  Gurbani was revealed through shabads that came individually to different people at different times. If Guru Nanak in South India used the word Atma, it is expected that the Hindu would understand what this word meant without having to read 600 shabads of Guru Nanak (revealed in Northern India) to understand what is being said to him. Gurbani was revealed over centuries, - it does’nt make sense that only people who had studied all the shabads would be able to understand what they were being told when the Guru revealed shabads to them.

Your approach seems to be heavily depend on logic. But Sikhi defies logic. This does not mean that Sikhi is all Disney world and mythology. But a traditional premise is that Sikhi breaks the make up of the mind. You say that Jup comes from the process of Jupi.  You equate jup with jupi. This is very logical, that X is connected with Y and therefore through doing X you will attain Y. BUT the foundation of Gurmat through the Sri Japji Sahib is ਸੋਚੈ  ਸੋਚਿ  ਨ  ਹੋਵਈ  ਜੇ  ਸੋਚੀ  ਲਖ  ਵਾਰ  and ਚੁਪੈ  ਚੁਪ  ਨ  ਹੋਵਈ  ਜੇ  ਲਾਇ  ਰਹਾ  ਲਿਵ  ਤਾਰ .  So here clearly the Guru is breaking common logic by going the other way and saying Soch does NOT happen through Sochai. And chup does not happen through chupai! This is a clear break with the way we understand logic and how Things are connected.  

Your idea that SIkhi fits with grammar, science and logic is fair to have but it does not have any tradition behind it. Whereas the Sampradays stretch back hundreds of years and that in itself Means their ideas have to be taken seriosly.

You say that jupi happens through Listening ,Believing Accepting and Living. This is called shravan, manan, and nididhyasana in Vedanta and is a key component in understanding reality and transcending the self. Again, your use of grammar takes you back to a Vedantic mindset which the sampradays could easily have done through their traditions, uthankas etc.

Again – there is NO way Gurbani discards the old meaning of these words. Gurbani is didactic – it is supposed to change your ways and by this , it implies that the orders given are understood by the people. If Gurbani says to do X it must be inferred that people understand what X means. And not that they have to study six hundred pages of philosophy and grammar to understand what is really meant. In your example, it means that the Panth was dillued for 300 years until Professor Sri Sahib Singh wrote his teeka. That does NOT make any sense and defies all logic of what a coherent, strong and independant religion is about.

 

 

Its clear from your arguments that your believe   Guru Nanak has simply recycled the message already revealed in vedas and associate hindu text there is nothing Nirmal in Nanaks  Enlightened Philosophy  its just  reformed and simplified Sanatana Dharma of medieval times & this is what Sikhi has become a esotreic,mystic ,mantra chanting ,ritualistic religion known as sikhism today  . While  Guru Nanak was busy  challenging the ancient mythology ,cast division and rituals which have their origins in classical hindu texts the irony  that after few centuries if we  examine the effects of teaching Guru Nanak  on Sikhs in particular it is not difficult to come to conclusion that what sikhs are doing today is contary to Nanak Philosophy because of entrapment in layers with   vedantic philosophy or lack of understanding of Gurbani.

 

You boosting of "Sampradays having a long history and thus taking their ideas  seriously" , we can see what nirmalas has reduced sikhi  to  how its being practiced today whether its chanting of jap banee to fullfill your personnel desires or slaughtering of animals in Gurudwaras or doing arthee ,havaan Tsumani of akand paths etc etc .

How were these Nirmalas were able to infilitrate into psyche  of Sikhi can be traced to time of Banda Singh Bhadhur where majority of Sikhi were living in the forests and during this period preaching of Gurbani feel into the hands of anti gurmat forces and during 18th and 19th century where the sikh insitutes were still under Anti Gurmat forces all sikh history and literature published were full of misinterpetations of Gurbani .Any effort taken by any scrupulous Sikh scholar to preach authentic sikhi were treated very badly and this is been done even today.

 

 

. But all is not lost we have a School of Modern Scholars like Prof Sahib Singh ,Principle Teja Singh and many more contemporary scholars and missionaries who are showing Gurbani can be interpreted through gurbani context  and not outside  and they are the real threat to sampridya traditions.

I believe Gurbani is for here and Know. Most important question  of Nanak Philosophy  "How to become Sachiaar" and SGGS has all the ingredients to help us to become Sachiaar only we sikhs have to use bibek buddhi to understand it.

Yours and other Sampridyas  understanding of Gurbani is well described by  Prof Puran Singh  in1920 :

"It is to be regretted that Sikh and Hindu scholars are interpreting Guru Nanak in the futile terms of the colour he used, the brush he took; are analyzing the skin and flesh of his words and dissecting texts to find the Guru’s meaning to be the same as of the Vedas and Upanishad! This indicates enslavement to the power of Brahmanical tradition. Dead words are used to interpret the fire of the Master’s soul! The results are always grotesque and clumsy translations which have no meaning at all."

 

 

 

 

 

[amardeep]

Its not recycling - it’s continuing the eternal wheel of Dharam. The gurus consistent use of Vedanta testifies to a continuation of an earlier tradition. The presence of bhagat bani in the Guru Granth Sahib also testifies to people being able to achieve mukhti prior to Guru Nanak in 1469, which means that there is an earlier tradition that the gurus were continuing and adapting to the times.

Good that you admit that you believe Sikhi was non existent from 1710 - 1950s and the panth has been deluded for the past 300 years. It shows your extreme point of departure  

 

You forgot to answer my question on where the gurus promoted the method of grammar in understanding gurbani. Bhai Gurdaas didn do that. Using gurbani tuks to interpret and explain Gurbani is a samprdaic tradition as can be seen throughout Kavi Santokh Singhs Garabganjani Teeka from the 1820s where he quotes extensively from the Anand Sahib, Asa Di vaar etx to explain  the meaning of Japji sahib. He also uses grammar to explain some Tuks  and why the verbs have a certain past Or present tense etc. Again, your idea that these things are new, logical and scientific is absurd - they’re a part of the sampradaic tradition!! The only difference is that the nirmale and others didn Chop off their feet while analysing and throwing the baby out with the bath water as present day missionaries do. 

Beautiful quote by Prof Puran Singh. Thanks for sharing. He is right In a way. Some nirmalas have taken things to far and you can also find the samprdaic  Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale accusing the nirmale and Udasis of the same in his Gurbani Paath Darshan. The samprdayas are not perfect, they make mistakes and it’s good to have a panthic discussion on that. But it’s rather extreme to just reject it all, throw the baby out with the bath water and dismiss 300 years of tradition just because they might make a few mistakes here and there.

Edited November 17, 2018 by amardeep

[angy15]

On 11/16/2018 at 9:15 PM, amardeep said:

In this regard, your understanding of Jup can most likely easily be found within the terminology of Vedanta and is not unique to Gurmat. And terms like karma, samsara, jeev, brahman, maya, prakrit etc are all from the Vedantic corpus of philosophy.  

Yes one can find terms of Gurbani in Vedaanta but that is different from saying one can find "understanding" in the vedanta.

One can find the terms "hardware, mouse,mother,board etc in a 4000 year old dictionary.But the "understanding " that a 21st century computer needs relating to these words cannot be found out in that 4000 year old dictionary .

The mouse of 4k  old dictionary is not the mouse of the 21st century computer knowledge .

Guru Nanak used the words of spirituality of that were prevalent  in those or before him but he either (a) redefined them (b) critiqued them.

On 11/16/2018 at 9:15 PM, amardeep said:

I think you need to spend some more time studying what Vedanta is.

My guru studied it researched it and gave us their conclusion

ਬਹੁ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬਹੁ ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤੀ ਪੇਖੇ ਸਰਬ ਢਢੋਲਿ ॥

ਪੂਜਸਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਅਮੋਲ ॥੧॥

On 11/16/2018 at 9:15 PM, amardeep said:

it does’nt make sense that only people who had studied all the shabads would be able to understand what they were being told when the Guru revealed shabads to them.

Its a self contradictions you are making you said we need to study vedas to understand vedanta.but we shouldn't read all shabads to understand Guru revealed shabad.What the purpose of 1429 pages if there no need to study it all , again a classic tactics  of drifting sikhs away from Gurmat.

 

Regaading Logic

@tva prasad

On 11/16/2018 at 9:15 PM, amardeep said:

our idea that SIkhi fits with grammar, science and logic is fair to have but it does not have any tradition behind it. Whereas the Sampradays stretch back hundreds of years and that in itself Means their ideas have to be taken seriosly.

thats defing logic: just because something is older doesn,t mean its TRUER

For example for 1500 years Christian believed and accepted that the sun sun revolved around the earh .But Galileo did not have any tradition .We can say for the same for any discovery -NO TRADITION.

Actually entire human knowledge is based on science and logic their isn't a single language that is devoid of grammar.Our Guru  deployed the tradition of grammar ,science and logic .the matter of fact that these truths took sikh hundred of years to discover and delay was primarily because it was hijacked for centuries

[angy15]

20 hours ago, amardeep said:

Beautiful quote by Prof Puran Singh. Thanks for sharing. He is right In a way. Some nirmalas have taken things to far and you can also find the samprdaic  Gurbachan Singh Bhindranwale accusing the nirmale and Udasis of the same in his Gurbani Paath Darshan. The samprdayas are not perfect, they make mistakes and it’s good to have a panthic discussion on that. But it’s rather extreme to just reject it all, throw the baby out with the bath water and dismiss 300 years of tradition just because they might make a few mistakes here and there. 

No one(personally I aleast ) is rejecting it all together infact one can find few key historical incidences in the lives of Guru from these  Samprdiya texts.But their are many stories recorded in it that cannot pass the test of Gurbani ,Science and logic and  these  texts has done more harm than good to sikhi . It is very important to do research and critical analysis in this regard to provide authentic Sikh History

[chatanga1]

On 11/15/2018 at 2:46 PM, angy15 said:

Accepted form

Jup : Imbibe/Understand (Vicharna)

ਆਜੁ ਕਾਲਿ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਹਰਿ ਜਪੁ ਜਪਿ ਰਿਦੈ ਧਿਆਈ ਹੇ ॥੫॥

O mortal, thou shall die today or tomorrow.imbibe the philosophy of Guru  in your  heart.

Where is the word "Guru" in the bani?

 

 

5 hours ago, angy15 said:

 

One can find the terms "hardware, mouse,mother,board etc in a 4000 year old dictionary.But the "understanding " that a 21st century computer needs relating to these words cannot be found out in that 4000 year old dictionary .

 

 

How would the understanding of the word "mother" change from 4 thousand years ago.

 

 

5 hours ago, angy15 said:

 

 

Actually entire human knowledge is based on science and logic

OK, so what is human knowledge of God based on science and logic.

You seem really scared to answer this question.

[angy15]

On 11/15/2018 at 9:37 PM, MrDoaba said:

When writing commentaries and making Gurbani interpretation there is a system, part of which is as follows:

• Vyakaran - grammar analysis.
• Nirukta - etymology analysis.
• Uthanka - historical context.

And two types of Arth:

• Bhav Arth - outer layer, surface meaning, literal meaning.
• Antreev Arth - inner layer, deep explanations, metaphors, analogies etc.

 

All this must be taken into consideration.

Thats a good piece of information you have given and  I would like to add  some more to it .

1. Contextual Analysis  :Understanding  a passage in the context of the stanza 

2. Principle of Gurbani Interpetations:

 Principles that will help us accrately interperet the shabad of SGGS.These principle are embedded in the SGGS itself.We don't need to go beyound the boundaries of SGGS to determine the meaning of scriptures . As i stated earlier in this discusiion SGGS interpret itself.

3. The Grammatical Principle : involves the study of words meaning ,grammar and synthax for proper understanding of scripture.

Prof Sahib Singh and Missionaries holds on to these principles while interpreting Gurbani.

 

[angy15]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

OK, so what is human knowledge of God based on science and logic.

You believe Science cannot  not prove or understand  God.(It depends what kind of God you are referring to )

a. So let me know through you What is Nanak definition  or understanding of God?

b. Why do you believe rationality and Gurbani are not compatible?I believe Sikhi encourages rationality

 

[chatanga1]

3 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Where is the word "Guru" in the bani?

@angy15  ?

 

3 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

 

How would the understanding of the word "mother" change from 4 thousand years ago.

@angy15  ?

 

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

You believe Science cannot  not prove or understand  God.(It depends what kind of God you are referring to )

The god that is in the mool mantar.

[tva prasad]

@angy15 The ancients were much more advanced than us. They used the spiritual and scientific aspects together. They used sounds and mantars to do things as well as physics, chemistry, engineering, etc. unlike us now who use fossil fuels and destroy the planet in the process. Ancient society had a better understanding of the universe (both spiritual and physical aspects). 

Why do I even bother? *sigh* 

[angy15]

9 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

@angy15  ?

 

@angy15  ?

 

The god that is in the mool mantar.

Look  I am not going in for silly argument with you for first two question and this was not in respond to your any query  .Its crystal clear what i have said .If You dont understand leave it.

Regarding Mool Mantar  where does Science  conflicts with  Mool Mantar?

Stephan Hawkins concept of God was

"Yes , If by God is meant emboidment of the laws of the universe " t

that is  similar to concept of Nanak's viewpoint

 

 

 

 

 

[angy15]

1 hour ago, tva prasad said:

@angy15 The ancients were much more advanced than us. They used the spiritual and scientific aspects together. They used sounds and mantars to do things as well as physics, chemistry, engineering, etc. unlike us now who use fossil fuels and destroy the planet in the process. Ancient society had a better understanding of the universe (both spiritual and physical aspects).  

Why do I even bother? *sigh* 

Are you really from australia.Your response like this suggests you  belong to a remote backward area of a poor under developed country.  Using mantras to do things in physics,chemistry,enginerring. what ridiculous justification.

How  has 10000 of  Yugs ,havans and mantras benefited history of India?Not at all .All it gave us is 1000 years of slavery.Fake mantras  like Braham Kavach  what benefits has it done to sikh community  NOTHING.Really you guys are not doing any justice to the name of this forum. Do some research in SGGS  and DG and find out how mantra ,jantras are rejected by our Gurus

[Jageera]

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

Look  I am not going in for silly argument with you for first two question and this was not in respond to your any query  .Its crystal clear what i have said .If You dont understand leave it.

Regarding Mool Mantar  where does Science  conflicts with  Mool Mantar?

Stephan Hawkins concept of God was

"Yes , If by God is meant emboidment of the laws of the universe " t

that is  similar to concept of Nanak's viewpoint

 

 

 

 

 

Would it kill you to type Guru Nanak?Are you Harry Haller from SPN?You type like it.Subtle provocations.The hallmark of an atheist provocateur.

Hawking was an atheist.How could Guru Nanak's viewpoint be as same as his?And how do you know exactly what was Guru Nanaks viewpoint?

[Jageera]

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

 Are you really from australia.Your response like this suggests you  belong to a remote backward area of a poor under developed country.  Using mantras to do things in physics,chemistry,enginerring. what ridiculous justification.

Are you really a Punjabi Sikh?You sound like brown man with white backside,totally self hating slave mentality.I don't see anything backwards with tva prasads beliefs.Reading this thread it has dawned on me that you are the backwards fallen one with no faith.

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

How  has 10000 of  Yugs ,havans and mantras benefited history of India?Not at all .All it gave us is 1000 years of slavery.Fake mantras  like Braham Kavach  what benefits has it done to sikh community  NOTHING.Really you guys are not doing any justice to the name of this forum. Do some research in SGGS  and DG and find out how mantra ,jantras are rejected by our Gurus

And pray tell how is the system being pushed by you people going to change anything?What has your type of beliefs contributed to the panth?Any tangible results?You guys are just able to exist on the fringes of Sikhi just like a parasite with a minimal following.Tell me if anyone wanted to learn science they would obviously go get educated in a University.Why does Sikhi have to be scientific?I cant understand your faithless thought system.Like harry haller,I believe you too think Sikhi is a "secular religion"?

[angy15]

2 hours ago, Jageera said:

Are you really a Punjabi Sikh?You sound like brown man with white backside,totally self hating slave mentality.I don't see anything backwards with tva prasads beliefs.Reading this thread it has dawned on me that you are the backwards fallen one with no faith.

And pray tell how is the system being pushed by you people going to change anything?What has your type of beliefs contributed to the panth?Any tangible results?You guys are just able to exist on the fringes of Sikhi just like a parasite with a minimal following.Tell me if anyone wanted to learn science they would obviously go get educated in a University.Why does Sikhi have to be scientific?I cant understand your faithless thought system.Like harry haller,I believe you too think Sikhi is a "secular religion"?

Mr Jhangeera : I could not find answers to my question in your reply. Let me repharase again to you

Do you see any conflict in Guru Nanak's philosophy and Science when it comes to concept of GOD?

 

2 hours ago, Jageera said:

Why does Sikhi have to be scientific

Why he shouldn't .Hasn't our asks us to use our God given gifts of intelligent discrimantion (Bibek Buddhi) to avoid irrational rituals and superstitions which you guys advocate .

Sikhi is faith which encourages to question irrational practices and beliefs in the name of religion.Our Gurus are role model for us.A wonder example  is the saakhi of his visit to Haridwar

2 hours ago, Jageera said:

if anyone wanted to learn science they would obviously go get educated in a University.

offcourse he should go to a university  because our deras  are dysfunctional both at spiritual level and scientific level.

Infact  a Sikh  should see God's Glory in science ,any discovery made by science is a celebration of the marvels of  God and his creations .There are so many references in Gurbani  expressing the exhalations of the creator (Kadar) through praising his creations(Kudrat). In Kritan Sohlia out Guru sees all of nature constantly doing aaarthi and glorifying God.

 

 

 

 

 

[tva prasad]

4 hours ago, angy15 said:

Are you really from australia.Your response like this suggests you  belong to a remote backward area of a poor under developed country.  Using mantras to do things in physics,chemistry,enginerring. what ridiculous justification.

How  has 10000 of  Yugs ,havans and mantras benefited history of India?Not at all .All it gave us is 1000 years of slavery.Fake mantras  like Braham Kavach  what benefits has it done to sikh community  NOTHING.Really you guys are not doing any justice to the name of this forum. Do some research in SGGS  and DG and find out how mantra ,jantras are rejected by our Gurus

Do Australians come from Australia? Do British come from Britain? Do Chinese come from China? This world is just an illusion. Only God exists- from him we come, everything else is an illusion it will perish. Who is poor, who is rich when he is all there is. There is so much we know not, only the creator knows how the universe works. 

Angy, you claim of knowing science and logic yet you have known neither. https://www.encyclopedia.com/science-and-technology/physics/physics/frequency 

Of course you are going to say something about Brahm Kavach, since Dhadri (whom you devotedly follow) has said things against chanting vaheguru. Havans purify the 5 elements, boosts strength, boosts energy, etc. For someone who speaks of science and logic how do you not know of pollution?   

23 minutes ago, angy15 said:

Mr Jhangeera : I could not find answers to my question in your reply. Let me repharase again to you

Do you see any conflict in Guru Nanak's philosophy and Science when it comes to concept of GOD?

Do you deserve answers? Someone who doesn't answer questions themselves is complaining of such... how ironic.  

God cannot be defined by science. If he could, everyone would know him. God is only known through stilling the mind, thus freeing oneself from the chains of illusion. 

Edit: wow Angy, nice. You editted your comment to incorporate answers, you still don't deserve answers. 

[angy15]

15 minutes ago, tva prasad said:

Using mantras to do things in physics,chemistry,enginerring. what ridiculous justification.

 I am more fascinated abt your above claim .Do you really believe what you wrote.

16 minutes ago, tva prasad said:

Of course you are going to say something about Brahm Kavach,

It doen't matter what Dhadri speaks abt. But those who believe in Braham Kavach distrust Guruji bani of  SGGS and DG . I have quotedhow Gurbani rejects it.

 

 

 

 

[angy15]

25 minutes ago, tva prasad said:

God cannot be defined by science. If he could, everyone would know him. God is only known through stilling the mind, thus freeing oneself from the chains of illusion.  

Don't get confused we  are debating Whether the concept of God as described by Guru Nanak is in conflict  with Science?

[tva prasad]

18 minutes ago, angy15 said:

Don't get confused we  are debating Whether the concept of God as described by Guru Nanak is in conflict  with Science?

It indeed does. Science seeks to define god, but Gurbani says god cannot be defined. 

30 minutes ago, angy15 said:

 I am more fascinated abt your above claim .Do you really believe what you wrote.

It doen't matter what Dhadri speaks abt. But those who believe in Braham Kavach distrust Guruji bani of  SGGS and DG . I have quotedhow Gurbani rejects it.

I believe what I wrote, if I did not I wouldn't write it. Please visit the website in my earlier post, it explains about effect of sound. 

You are lost. Gurbani says chant god's name with each breath, is god's name not a mantar? Braham kavach was written by guru ji as well, I don't see any problem with reciting it rather I feel it is great to recite it. Dasam granth and sarbloh granth contain the same truth as SGGS. 

[Jageera]

2 hours ago, angy15 said:

Mr Jhangeera : I could not find answers to my question in your reply. Let me repharase again to you

Do you see any conflict in Guru Nanak's philosophy and Science when it comes to concept of GOD?

Mr.Angy15,you were quoting Hawkings and you stated it was similar to Guru Nanaks viewpoint.I disagree that an atheist could have the same viewpoint as Our great Guru.Hawkings couldn't prevent himself from being abused by his own nurse,what 'God' could he have possibly known?So yes I see a huge conflict between Hawkings definition of the concept of God and Guru Nanaks God.For Hawkings it is just a concept but for Guru Nanak Akal Purakh is Aad Sach,Jugad Sach,Hai Bhi Sach.

2 hours ago, angy15 said:

In Kritan Sohlia out Guru sees all of nature constantly doing aaarthi and glorifying God.

 

Kirtan Sohila.Again,more passive aggressiveness from you.If I were your handler or upline I would have dismissed you a long time ago as instead of bringing people to your cause and ideology your behaviour actively repulses and chases people away.Oh yeah,what I wanted to say was if you used this "Guru sees all of nature constantly doing aaarthi and glorifying God" answer in any science paper I guarantee you 100% you will fail as it has nothing at all to do with science.

[Jageera]

 

8 hours ago, angy15 said:

How  has 10000 of  Yugs ,havans and mantras benefited history of India?Not at all .All it gave us is 1000 years of slavery.Fake mantras  like Braham Kavach  what benefits has it done to sikh community  NOTHING.Really you guys are not doing any justice to the name of this forum. Do some research in SGGS  and DG and find out how mantra ,jantras are rejected by our Gurus

Using your logic one could argue what is the point of reading SGGS,keeping Keshdari,5K,Nitnem,abstaining intoxicants etc for the past 300years since we were still hunted by the Mughals,bashed by the British,bashed by the pakis in 47,bashed by the hindus in 84 etc? Get ready because it looks like what you guys are preaching is going to lead to these types of questions being raised.

I respect atheist communist terrorists more than you cowards.At least they were open with their belief and sang socialist songs all the way to the gallows here.They did not try to use a religion and subvert it to fit their own atheist narrative.

[Jageera]

 

4 hours ago, angy15 said:

 

Why he shouldn't .Hasn't our asks us to use our God given gifts of intelligent discrimantion (Bibek Buddhi) to avoid irrational rituals and superstitions which you guys advocate .

Who is 'you guys'?So,Someone disagrees with you and you group him with your other imaginary enemies?I didn't state any views here favouring any side. What I disagree with is with the disrespect shown by you missionary types towards the Gurus names and names of the Baniya.After that you were exhibiting elitist wanna be white man behaviour by putting down tva prasad and I seriously hate these type of crab mentality attitude.You put down your own and brown nose outsiders.Pathetic.

 

3 hours ago, angy15 said:

Don't get confused we  are debating Whether the concept of God as described by Guru Nanak is in conflict  with Science?

You people talk about science so much yet you cant answer what has your movement contributed or changed on present day Sikhi?What is your game plan?What would be the end result?Are you guys busy assembling a nuclear warhead under your missionary college?Since I assume all of you must be top notch scientists.Talking about nuclear physicists,I came across a youtube of an Inder Ghagga in Canada(i think).

Was giving a Q&A session and 1 of the question was 'is it ok if someone doesn't believe in God but is a good human being'? And the answer was 'It's OK no problem as long as they are a good person'. So in conclusion,Fitte mu to this Inder and double Fitte mu to his audience for clapping hands at his pathetic answer.Tell me which religious parcharak would ever mention that being godless is no problem?

And tell me which audience that has come for religious lessons would ever ask such a dumb question? That video told me alot of missionary preachers and much more about their audiences.These types are attempting to turn this Religion into a social club thats inclusive to all sorts of degeneracy.

[angy15]

@Jageera

I think You are talking a lot but saying nothing.

 

[Jageera]

35 minutes ago, angy15 said:

@Jageera

I think You are talking a lot but saying nothing.

 

A lot has been said,a lot has been asked but no answer was received.You are just obfuscating.