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If buddha dal came back in control of Akaal takth???


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Guest BikramjitSingh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

N30 Singh

Why would you want the guy ( santa singh ) who rebuilt the Akal takht after operation bluestar against the wishes of the Sikh sangat for the Gandhi family to be in charge of the Akal Takht ?

Gurfateh

Bikramjit

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Bik singh,

I am just wondering what changes we can see?? Because let me tell you leadership of akaal takth jathedars is not that good at the moment. They couldnt even figure out if dasam guroo durbar is gurbani or not.

Also i wouldnt comment what jathedar santa singh did or why he did??. But i would say for decades shiromani buddha dal was in control of akaal takth.. Then british came along blew off strong khalsa leafs by using "Divide And Rule".

so lets discuss Bik, Lalleshwari, Narsingha etc...

We are here just to learn from you guys :D

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Although I have a nihang leaning in some sentiments, I wonder if this would be feasible or even beneficial.

Take this for example, we have factions everywhere. Many people make alliances to one faction and attack the other. The other respondse back. Apart from creating friction, their actions speak for theirselves. As far as I am concerned, when that "pyaar, and ekta" is compromised for factional gain or purposes, the whole idea of JUST leadership goes down the tubes.

As per the buddha dal, here are a few points that need to be addressed.

What is being done by them to secure the gurdwara's and their upkeeping. I have heard of guru ka maseet being preserved by singhs of the shaheedi misl, taruna dal (if that is the right name, what used to be the dal that baba kirtan singh was the jathedar of).

What prachaar is being done by the buddha dal outside of india? Even at this point baba santa singh ji does prachar of sarbloh granth (which is great, but then what happened to all the "secrets" and the importance of those secrets).

I know a singh, very well, who is extremely close with santa singh. I have seen proof so that I am convinced. I am not attacking santa singh here, as I respect that his nitnem is very long and from some of the stuff that I hear, that the buddha dal nihangs are actually doing stuff in india to preserve things.

yet what about kar seva? I hear that the harian vela nihang singhs are rejects but even if they are, I see them building schools etc and other stuff to help people who have suffered.

One excuse for why the buddha dal is not in power is that "it is guru sahibs hukam", well on the same note "guru sahib has also ordained the sgpc with power". That is hukam too, if the nihangs were invincible, they would not have been overthrown. We know the only force that is invincible is nirankar, parmatma, waheguru etc.

Another thing to note is that we have an itihaasik gurdwara in pakistan, I'll get the name for those interested, where the nihang singhs were tied to a tree by the udasi's and burnt. The point I am making here is that virtue, is hard earned, and power etc. severs ties. Even if nihangs did get along with the other samparda's, when it came to power, every group was as hungry as the next. mahants wanted to retain power, nihangs wanted it, there was a fight and then ties are severed.

I know udasi's here who consider nirmallay to be the khatri's (or lower class scholars) and nihangs to be the enemies along with sgpc. The family here have their links to the udasi's in hardwar and come from a very respectable lineage.

It is ironic, we fight over jatha/samparda/caste/sect/subsect/.... but how often do we take the time to step out of circle of comfort and make ties with others from other races and helping to eliminate racial, cultural differences?

We believe the khalsa to be akal purkh's fauj (as ordained by guru sahib).

The damallay de salok say "hum hai akaali, sabh ke vaali, humra panth niara hai".... if that is what we stand for, where is the akali (nihang, buddha dal, taruna dal, or even sikh regiment) in the UN. One can argue that india was extremely multicultural and sikhs became distinguished at a very oppurtune time. What has happened?

I have read pracheen panth prakash and I know that singhs believe that guru gobind singh offered the whole world to the nihang singhs but they only wanted panjab. We have a very cosmopolitan faith, that has succumbed to fascism around us, in it, we have become "tillay". What we need, is for us to empower ourselves, stop worrying about RSS and other so called threats. Let us get out of this defeatist mentality and shine. We have a history to be proud of, let us encourage those who are taking steps forward to promote this.

In the guru's times, india was oppurtune because it was the nasdaq of euro-asia. In our global environment, the internet and the media are our nasdaq's. Everything is out in the open, let us do our own little parts and go forward.

stay in chardiankalla

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

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Guest Javanmard

Well the issue of Baba Santa Singh rebuilding the Akal Takht is a bit more complex than some people may present it.

1. According to the maryada of chardi kala any damaged gurdwara or takht HAS to be rebuild

2. maryada also states that it is forbidden to fight in civilian areas such as the Harmandar Sahib. Guru Harigobind always faught his battles OUTSIDE Amritsar. Fighting in the Harmandar complex is not only a grave tactical mistake but pure inconscience: you are bound to lose.

3. Edited* "No politics"

4. I think Baba Santa SIngh was just at the receiving end of a whole conspiracy

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what I find really interesting is that the akali dal is in bed with the BJP (similar to the ku klux klan being cohorting with the black panthers), and us sikhs prefer to work together on "hating" terms.... crazy isn't it.

Yet anyone who tends to promote any type of unity or cross religious. cross cultural bridging, gets called RSS...LOL

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Guest Javanmard

Well the situation in SIkhi in clear words is this:

Imagine some American Neo evangelist cult supported by some strong colonial power decides to take control of the Vatican and starts imposing its heretic views on all Catholics destryoing monastries, art and eliminating the eucharist, incense etc.. just because it does not fit into their Protestant vision of things. But the problem is that Catholics have more parampara than that cult.... The cult then accuses Catholics to be pagan and idolworshippers and superstitious...

get my point...

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Actually on another note,

if the buddha dal did come back in power,

people would try to create an alternate takht and reclaim history to suit them. The only thing I know we could be sure of, if buddha dal did come into control, is that the panth will not be subject to the stagnancy of modern day religion as the focus of sikhi would again return to merit.

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If Bhudda Dal Came back into power there might not be so much argueing as the head chief, makes the final decision after advice from Panj Pyare, just a Akali Phula Singh did.

eg: Soho Road birmingham is a well run sikh gurdwara why because there is no commitee, one head not 20 odd uneducated,persons with different views :LOL:

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1. According to the maryada of chardi kala any damaged gurdwara or takht HAS to be rebuild

Rebuilt with money given by the very people who were responsible for it being demolished in the first place ... ?

2. maryada also states that it is forbidden to fight in civilian areas such as the Harmandar Sahib. Guru Harigobind always faught his battles OUTSIDE Amritsar. Fighting in the Harmandar complex is not only a grave tactical mistake but pure inconscience: you are bound to lose.

bullets were being fired into harmandar sahib BEFORE the invasion in June '84, and given that given that the attack had been planned months in advance, and merely a matter of time before it was executed, it was only right that the sikhs should fortify the darbar sahib complex to withstand the assault.

regarding tactics - i'm sure that general shahbeg singh was more well versed in military tactics and guerilla warfare than santa singh.

what would he have done ... rode around on horseback 50 miles outside of amritsar while darbar sahib was being blasted with tank fire?

also, it would be helpful if you would reveal which marayada(s) are you referring to lalleshvaari.

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Guest BikramjitSingh

Well the situation in SIkhi in clear words is this:

Imagine some American Neo evangelist cult supported by some strong colonial power decides to take control of the Vatican and starts imposing its heretic views on all Catholics destryoing monastries, art and eliminating the eucharist, incense etc.. just because it does not fit into their Protestant vision of things. But the problem is that Catholics have more parampara than that cult.... The cult then accuses Catholics to be pagan and idolworshippers and superstitious...

get my point...

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Lallesvari as someone who came to Sikhi from another religion or perhaps no religion I can understand why your bring such a bias to this debate. Sorry, You do really do not know what you are writing about !. Didn't you as Bahadur Singh on Sikhe.com accuse the Akalis of taking over the Gurdwaras 'illegally' in the 1920's ?. This was on the basis of a 'discussion' you had with an Udasi !. Perhaps you believe all those Sikhs who gave their lives for taking the Gurdwaras under the panth and not allowing them to remain the 'jagirs' of the Mahants were 'criminals' ?.

You undoubtedly have some knowledge of the Nirmala paramparas but as regards Sikhs politics you are way out of your depth especially your naive suggestion that Sikhs should not have fought within the Harnadir Sahib complex.

There is not doubt that the SGPC has become as corrupt as the mahants that preceeded it. The answer is to make sure that only GurSikhs committed to Sikhi are elected to it. The answer is not to allow the Nihangs or even the Mahants to return to their positions of power.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

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what's my point ?!

santa singh accepted money to rebuild the akaal takhat from those same people who attacked it and were responsible for killing over 3000 innocent people in its surroundings.

suppose somebody burnt down your house intentionally, destroying all your cherished possesions, annihilating precious artefacts, killing members of your family, and then offered you an apology and £100,000 to build it up again - would you take the money from them and thank them for their generosity, or would you at the very least demand justice for the horrendous attrocity ?

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santa singh accepted money to rebuild the akaal takhat from those same people who attacked it and were responsible for killing over 3000 innocent people in its surroundings.

So again, whats your point?!

suppose somebody burnt down your house intentionally, destroying all your cherished possesions, annihilating precious artefacts, killing members of your family, and then offered you an apology and £100,000 to build it up again - would you take the money from them and thank them for their generosity, or would you at the very least demand justice for the horrendous attrocity ?

well, that’s difficult question, you’ll have to give time to think about that one. :roll: :roll:

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since you don't seem to understand - my point is that had santa singh shown any courage, to put it crudely, he would have told bibi indira she could stick the money where the sun don't shine.

moreover, for a jathedar of the budha dal nihangs, i would have expected him to atleast bring to justice, in the nihang ways of old, those that carried out the desecration, instead of thanking them.

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Moderator note: Please use language which is appropriate as this site is also for non-sikhs as well. We have edited your post to meet our rules.

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waheguru ji ka khalsa

waheguru ji ki fateh

I think no one group should be or given control of any place never mind the Sri Darbar Sahib. Any way they cant even control their own jatha or 'nihangs' they seem to be more busy killing each other or waiting for santa to pop it so they can take over.

The ppl who say it as a mistake to fight at Sri Darbar Sahib, excuse me but read history matey did not Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Singh ji 3 jathadar of Damdami Taksal fight at Akal Takhat or was that too made up like ????. This argument is nidar's main point against Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale, u will c all in his up & coming book and website:(, then if Sant ji was wrong say we agree, what have they Santas Nihangs) done to get the killers of thousands off sikhs across india??? all i c is they get free transport on Government owned trains and buses.

Yea i think Shaheed General Shuhbeg Singh ji would now about warfare

!!! man the practised what he preached and died defending Sri Darbar Sahib like a TRUE NIHANG, more then what the Budhal Dal (santa's group)did yea there was other TRUE Nihangs that fought with Sant Ji, like the Bidi Chand wale and Baba Nihal Singhs group as well as ex Nihangs.

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Moderator note: Sukhdev Singh ji, please refrain yourself using harsh words just to raise issue in this thread. We will let you post if you want to get into healthy discussion otherwise we have participants with healthy discussion principle and they're discussing it already.

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Sidak

since you don't seem to understand

yes that’s right, that’s why asked twice for the point.

my point is that had santa singh shown any balls, to put it crudely, he would have told bibi indira she could stick the money where the sun don't shine.

So let me get this straight, you think it takes courage to reject government money?!

moreover, for a jathedar of the budha dal nihangs, i would have expected him to atleast bring to justice, in the nihang ways of old, those that carried out the desecration, instead of thanking them

So you think a group of, say a thousand men, with predominately non-mechanical weapons can “at least get justice†from a national army of a million+ with nuclear weapons? And “in the nihang way of oldâ€!…Lol…

Sukhdev

The ppl who say it as a mistake to fight at Sri Darbar Sahib, excuse me but read history matey did not Shaheed Baba Gurbaksh Singh ji 3 jathadar of Damdami Taksal fight at Akal

Takhat or was that too made up like ????.

A quick point:

Its not entirely correct to use Baba Gurbaksh Singh Ji as an analogy. BabaJi actually met the Afgans as they approached; hence the battle was not fought from within the precincts. Read panth prakash for clarification on this.

NB. I’m NOT stating what Sant Jarnail Singh Ji did was incorrect, simply the analogy is incorrect.

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So let me get this straight, you think it takes courage to reject government money?!

well, it seems that santa singh had neither the courage, nor the brains, to realise that his reconstruction of the akal takht was conveniently being funded by those who were responsible for its destruction in the first place, in their attempt to get some of the so-called 'moderate' sikhs back on their side.

it's a bit like al'qaida offering to rebuild the twin towers ...

So you think a group of, say a thousand men, with predominately non-mechanical weapons can “at least get justice†from a national army of a million+ with nuclear weapons? And “in the nihang way of oldâ€!…Lol…

i'm not talking about taking on the entire army, but those individuals who were responsible for the attack taking place. indira gandhi, general vaidiya, and others who played a part in the attack were all dealt with by individual sikhs - why didn't the nihangs, the defenders of the panth, play their part in delivering justice to those guilty individuals. or perhaps their respect for bibi indira's sarkar was too overwhelming ... ?

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Guest BikramjitSingh

A quick point:

Its not entirely correct to use Baba Gurbaksh Singh Ji as an analogy. BabaJi actually met the Afgans as they approached; hence the battle was not fought from within the precincts. Read panth prakash for clarification on this.

NB. I’m NOT stating what Sant Jarnail Singh Ji did was incorrect, simply the analogy is incorrect.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

J Singh

It is actually you who is incorrect. Sidak is absolutely correct to make a comparison of the two incidents. The only contemporary document which relates to that event is Jangnama by Qazi Noor Mohammed who was in the entourage of Ahmed Shah Abdali. He stated that the Sikhs came out of the Harmiadir Sahib to fight the Afghans, thereby showing that the fighting took place in the complex around the causeway or in the Parikarma.

Sidak

I understood your point about Santa Singh the first time around.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

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Guest Javanmard

1. Budha Dal has enough money to rebuild the Akal Takht on its own. The money offered by the Indian government was first refused by Baba Santa Singh who told them that if they wanted to donate money they should but it in the golak.

2. The Akal Takht that has been rebuilt by the SGPC is not based on the original plans, several important details are missing as are several wall paintings depicting Krishna and our Gurus.

3. If Budha Dal really was an agent of the Indian Government it would already be taking full control of the Takhts.

4. None of my information is based on heresay or rumours. Oral testimonies are always checked by several times.

5. I personaly don't agree with all aspects of the Nihang sampradaya in terms of its present state nor do I agree with some aspects of the Nirmala sampradaya in its present state. I believe in aqal, looking at ALL things critically and objectively, but I do sometimes lose my temper when people use blasphemy against our Gurus and other Prophets.

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sidak,

well, it seems that santa singh had neither the courage, nor the brains, to realise that his reconstruction of the akal takht was conveniently being funded by those who were responsible for its destruction in the first place, in their attempt to get some of the so-called 'moderate' sikhs back on their side.

“Didn’t have the brains�? Well it was the government who destroyed it, and it was themselves were funding the rebuilding…no phd required here.

So again is ask you:

Do you think it takes courage to reject government money?! (as you stated he was not ‘courageous’ enough to reject the funds).

it's a bit like al'qaida offering to rebuild the twin towers ...

err, no its not

You seem to display some strange logic on this forum.

First you provided me with some loony options about thanking Gandhi or getting justice.

Now your producing some strange analogy between al-qeda and the WTC…mate, 9/11 was a terriost strike from extremists, 84 was a concocted, premeditated attack by a corrupted government – there are no parallels to draw even IF alqeda made the offer.

why didn't the nihangs, the defenders of the panth, play their part in delivering justice to those guilty individuals. or perhaps their respect for bibi indira's sarkar was too overwhelming ... ?

Firstly, the Khalsa is the defender of the panth and dharam, not solely nihangs.

Secondly, Nihang Baba nihal Singh ji did suffer a great deal (through torture), so quit your sweeping statements regarding Nihangs Singhs

Bikramjit,

It is actually you who is incorrect. Sidak is absolutely correct to make a comparison of the two incidents.

Well it was sukdev, not sidak, who made the comparison.

The only contemporary document which relates to that event is Jangnama by Qazi Noor Mohammed who was in the entourage of Ahmed Shah Abdali. He stated that the Sikhs came out of the Harmiadir Sahib to fight the Afghans, thereby showing that the fighting took place in the complex around the causeway or in the Parikarma.

Read the below

http://www.sikhcybermuseum.org/People/GurbakshNihang.htm

"When the King and his army reached the Chakk (Amritsar), they did not see any [infidel] there. But a few men staying in a fortress were bent upon spilling their blood and they sacrificed themselves for their Guru.... They were only thirty in number. They did not have the least fear of death. They engaged the Ghazis and spilled their blood in the process. Thus all of them were slaughtered and consigned to the seventh [hell]."

Whether the “fortress†connotes the harminder sahib or Akal Thakt, is a question that can only be probably answered by looking at the original text.

I stated the analogy was incorrect because where santJi was barricaded within harminder sahib to fight from, BabaJi “engagedâ€/travelled out to meet the attackers. Again, in no way am stating what santji did was wrong

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waheguru ji ka khalsa

waheguru ji ki fateh

there seems to be a disregard for FACTS here santa's Nihang's played a massive role in post june 84 period, the fact is that he stood with the people responsible for destroy the very Takhat they claim to be the gaurdians off. They walked all over the blood off the sangat and shaheeds.

No one here cussed or said any thing against Baba Nihal Singh we all now his role and the Quam respects him. Its the fake Nihangs that are getting everyones backs up. They trying to hid the FACT they didnot come up with the goods when the need araised they failed.

Bikramjit, sidak veer jis its nice to know theres singhs out there still who have not got memories only until the 1800's. Well next years an important year lets put heads together and remember Guruji's Parkash Shaheeds of the quam

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jsingh, it's clear you have no qualms about santa singh having accepted government money, as opposed to the majority of the panth which did (resulting in the symbolic ex-communication of santa singh), hence your inability to understand my 'point'.

having courage suggests the ability to do the right thing at the right time - something that santa singh clearly failed to do by accepting the handout.

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