If buddha dal came back in control of Akaal takth???

[Sukdev Singh Jhamka]

waheguru ji ka khalsa

waheguru ji ki fateh

sukhasingh veer ji

i was too young to be there :cry: my info comes from Singhs who were with Sant Ji who are now shaheed :cry: as well as the info i have gathered regarding the struggle.

waheguru

[J.Singh]

Sidak

jsingh, it's clear you have no qualms about santa singh having accepted government money,

sidak, you gave an example of what would happen if my house was burnt down…

in such a situation, I would go out of my way to ensure the perpetrators were brought to justice, along with footing the bill for all tangible and intangible losses.

Look at it this way (for the attack in 84) - IF the Sikhs did accept the money:

1. We could’ve rebuilt the harminder sahib in half the time,

2. Demanded compensation for all brevities (obviously nothing can replace lost lives),

3. The money that was donated could have been used for Sikh schools, sikh literature, hospitals…the list is endless

4. And, of course, continue to demand justice

as opposed to the majority of the panth which did (resulting in the symbolic ex-communication of santa singh),

just because a majority of people (or even all), believe something is wrong, it does not mean it is necessarily so.

Sometimes it takes courage to against the norm, even resulting in persecution eg. When Galileo went ‘against’ the Vatican

…hence your inability to understand my 'point'.

Actually I did understand your point (bikramjit was little premature with his conclusions and i see truthsingh deleted his joker comments), however I wanted you to elaborate it so it could be discussed with reason.

having courage suggests the ability to do the right thing at the right time - something that santa singh clearly failed to do by accepting the handout.

Well it seems lalleshvari believes the payment at first was not accepted…maybe the facts need to be ascertained first along with evidence?

Would do you think?

Either way, in my opinion, it doesn’t take courage to reject the payment…especially for the devastation caused and lives ravaged…The Sikhs have contributed so much to India, we deserve every penny the GOI.

NB. Just because payment is accepted, it doesn’t negate the requirement for justice…justice is paramount

Khalsa Fateh

[Guest]

Dear Members,

Hope to see healthy discussion on this topic and please don't get into personal discussion or personality description because that's just a waste of time for us and others. Please share your knowledge and if you're having any issue with members please send them PM to sort it out.

Thanks!

[Guest inderjit]

i totally disagree, the sikhs are an independant race/religion/panth. we dont need handouts from any government to repair the damage they did. that money is dirty and the hands passing it to us are red with the blood of innocent sikhs. do u think the sikhs are that weak or soft that we cant afford to rebuild our own gurdwara's? the only reason the govt wanted to give the money was to hide its shame. if the world had continued to see the destruction the govt had caused to the akal takhat then there would have been so many questions asked and the govt would have no reply to them.

even in the news reports following the attack, the govt only allowed media access to certain areas of punjab. and if u look at any news clips from that period you will see that all the footage is the same for the first days/weeks. this is because this footage was provided to the news agencies by the indians.., and guess what.. although they showed footage of darbar sahib after the attack... no image of the akal takhat was shown!!! the building which suffered the biggest assult was ignored from the footage. and instead we saw soldiers "cleaning up".

the govt knew they ******ed up big time,and to appease the sikhs they thought they could buy us out. by paying for the repairs, the message was that " we are sorry for the damage caused but it had to be done to get rid of the terrorists, and now look how nice we are , were gonna fix it all back up again". its just part of the game to justify the attack and blame the damage on the sikhs.

for the sikhs to tell the govt where to shove their money and to decide to stand up on their own two feet and govern themselves does show courage. after the attck, if you respect the words of sant jarnail singh ji, he said that the foundation stone of khalistan would be laid, so in my view the sikh nation was already independant and therefore nobody has the right to rebuild the akal takhat without the permission or discussion with the sikh panth. how can they just destroy and rebuild gurdwara with their own will???? this isnt just a wooden hut, this is gods house. If the buddha dal have enough money to rebuild the akal takhat themsewlves... then why dont they have any half decent weapons?? the excuse that they have mostly "non-mechanical" weapons is a joke.. on one hand ur bank balances are at bursting rate and on the other hand u cant afford or get acces to effecient weapons?!?!?!? if an army doesnt have weapons.. then it cant be an army... so basically the army that once was does no longer exist, if akal purkh ki fauj doesnt have the man power or the weapons to defend the sikh nation when it needs help... then that fauj is a joke and non existant. jathdar of akal takhat??? he barely has anything to be jathedar of himself... its a sad fact that this fauj of guru ji has faded out in such a way. as we all know and agree its not the title by which we are judged but by our actions. so an army isnt an army just because it carries weapons, an army is an army if it trains and is willing and able to defend the people which it claims to protect. unfortunelty we at the moment have no standing army.

[Jeff]

When the "Nihangs" took Control of Sree Akaal Takhat in 1920

By Bhai NaraiN Singh MA in Soora October 1988

Translated by Admin www.tapoban.org

This story is about some "Nihangs" who supported anti-Sikh elements. There were and are many Gursikh Nihangs in the Panth like Baba Mitt Singh jee and Akali Kaur Singh jee, but many in the costume of Nihangs have in the past and continue today to attack the Panth and serve anti-Panthic interests. Bhai Sahib Randheer Singh jee and a big Jatha of Singhs and Singhnees, led by Bibi Joginder Kaur also drove out corrupt Nihangs/Nangs from Gurdwara Chamkaur Sahib.

This story begins after the Panth had taken control over Sree Akaal Takhat Sahib and the corrupt "pujaris" had run away. These pujaris refused to accept the Karah Parshaad of "low castes" and when a Jatha of Singhs came to offer Karah Parshaad with a former "low caste" a hukumnama was taken from Sree Guru Granth Saahib jee and the hukumnama clearly said that even the lowest were transformed by the Guru and Sikhi had no place for caste. The Pujaris then ran away from the Takhat and abandoned their posts. This historic day was October 12, 1920. The story begins here:

********

The Pujaris of Sree Akaal Takhat Sahib brought the "Nihangs" who were staying at Burj Baba Phoola Singh jee 5 goats, 5 sacks of sugar, almonds, flour and other supplies. They collected the Nihangs together and with folded hands said "Nihang Singh jee! Sree Akaal Takhat belongs to the Nihangs, you are its caretaker. Look! The Mallechh (impure) Khalsa, those Singh Sabbhias, have taken it over. You prepare yourselves, and we'll give the control of the Takhat to you.

At that time, the Nihangs had taken Sukha (cannibis drink) and were fully intoxicated. The Pujari's proposal was immediately accepted. Jathedar Sahib Singh jee Nihang ordered, "We'll slaughter the goats in the morning, now we should get ready to take over Sree Akaal Takhat".

At 12pm, a group of 50 Nihangs arrived at Sree Akaal Takhat Sahib and sat down there. Jathedar Kartar Singh jee Jhabbar was in Bazaar Mai Sevaa(n) and was told that the Nihangs had now taken control of the Takhat. Jathedar Jhabbar was preparing to leave for Panja Sahib but had to change his plans. He went and stood under the balcony in front of Sree Akaal Takhat Saahib. A Nihang saw him and called out "Bhai Kartar Singh Jhabbar! You're a Jathedar (so I'll talk to you). My name is Gopal Singh Giani. I'm the secretary for the Nihang Jatha. We've thrown you out of here (the Takhat) and taken control."

Jhabbar replied, "Sree Nihang Singh jee! You shouldn’t' challenge other Singhs like this. You stay put and I'll be back soon."

A Jatha of Akalis was coming at that time near the Bunga of Maanaavalay. Bhai Teja Singh Bhuchhar was accompanying it as well. Jhabbar stopped this Jatha and told them what had happened and explained that they should wait before taking action as ther were a lot of Nihangs and another Jatha of Akalis was coming. Soon, the Dhoori vala Malvai Jatha under Gajjan Singh also arrived. Jathedar Jhabbar stopped the Jatha by Laichi Ber and explained that the Nihangs were also Singhs and brothers so they shouldn't be attacked. First they should be talked too and have the situation explained.

Jathedar Jhabbar went before the Takhat and called out, "Nihang Singh jee! The management of the Takhat is now in the hands of the Panth. Please leave." The Nihangs however were intoxicated with Sukha and ignored these words. Jathedar Jhabbar tried to make them understand but they would not listen. They instead began to speak insulting words in return.

Jathedar Jhabbar then stepped back and motioned towards his Jatha. At this, the Khalsa, like lions arrived at the Takhat. They grabbed the Nihangs and threw them down. In the Malvai Jatha, there was an 18 year old daughter of a Subedar, Bibi Bhajan Kaur who was badly beating the Nihangs and was throwing them down. The Bibi grabbed one Nihang and was dragging him by the leg but Jathedar Jhabbar released him. The Bibi, who had a staff in her hands, then went and struck at Jathdar Sahib Singh and attacked him. Finally, two Singhs had to hold this Bibi back and prevent her from attacking even more.

Many Nihangs ran away and the rest were surrounded. Hearing all the commotion, a lot of Singhs from the city also arrived. One Singh suggested that the Nihangs be handed over to the police. Another Singh brought a piece of paper and said to Jathedar Sahib Singh, "write on this paper that you've made a mistake and the Panth should forgive you. Then put your thumbprint on it and we'll let you go." Jathedar Sahib Singh put his thumbprint on the paper and the Nihangs were forgiven. Later it was found out that Giani Gopal Singh, the one who had challenged the Singhs had run away from a back door. The Singhs from the city brought some carts and the Nihangs were put on them and taken back to ChhaoNee Burj Baba Phoola Singh. (Taken from the book "Kartar Singh Jhabbar")

[Niranjana]

Back to the topic...so what WOULD happen if the Buddha Dal was in control again??? :?

[Guest Javanmard]

sukha in abundance and a giant jhatka kebab party!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Guest]

sukha in abundance and a giant jhatka kebab party!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

MEGA LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

alright shhhhhhhhhhh lets be serious now... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Nihang Gargaj Singh]

If Shromani Akaali Buddha Dal 96 Karor Chalda Vaheer was back in control of Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib.........then there wouldnt be bath-room tiles in the Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib.

We would see a revival of the beautiful frescoes from the Misal Period of the Gurus, famous sikhs, and devtas and devtees , such as Chandi .

And the Bungas that were around Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib would be built again to there former glory...

everyday in ardas we say (even the SGPC say)

"Chaunkeea, Jhandai, Bungae, Jugo Jug Atal."

"May the kirtan chowkees, flags, and towers (bungas) remain forever."

But what do the SGPC do?

Knock down our precius Bungas to make way for westernised buildings!!!!!!..........hypocrits or what? :evil:

If Shromani Akaali Buddha Dal was in control of Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib the Siri Akaal Takhat Sahib could shine like it did in the days of its former glory.........if only..........

siri akaal ji sahai

[Nihang Gargaj Singh]

And of course there owuld be other positive things :wink:

LAMB CURRY ALL ROUND

and

SUKHA FOR ALL

sounds tasty..mmmmmmmmm

GUR BAR AKAAAAAAAAL

[Guest Javanmard]

these days will come no worries but the sampradayas need to re-organise themselves!

we have to become stronger and stronger so that one day one may here from akal takht continous: gur bar akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal hi akaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal

[Guest inderjit]

errrm correct me if im wrong... but when santa built the akal takhat acting like a muppet puppet of the govt and against the wishes of the panth (as seen when they later knocked down his and indra's building and rebuilt the gurus takhat...) did he put in pic of devi's then??

did he build bungeh??

did the govt give him enough money to build them??

or did he spend the money on another horse having killed the poor previous beast that he sat on??

dont forget there would also be a mcdonalds selling halal burgers for all the modern nihangs who cant be bothered to even follow their own maryada.

im just sooo confused.. because people are telling me that the nihangs have so much money etc.. and that they are in control/doing seva of some gurdwara's... but then were are the hindu devi pics there? (honest q, do these pics exist in those gurdwara's?)

but oh yeh dont forget if (lol) santa and his crew did get into the akal takhat (after a lift would need to be fitted, as santa would have difficulty shifting his bulk up the stairs,) they would have to deposit their weapons at the door. seeing as the nihangs (from personal experience in this country) view the carrying of a gun in the akal takhat as a very bad thing. but lol hang on.... as i said on my prev post on this topic.. i forgot!!!! akal purkh ki fauj, guru ki ladlia fauja dont have any modern weaponary do they!!!! lol, they even have to get licenses off the government to be able to carry their spears etc.... my my my our army really is one to be proud of!

yes please enter the akal takhat, after all the only thing the quam is lacking is pics of devi and drugs! and ohh dont forget the bungeh!

perhaps if they cleaned up their act then maybe this question would be even slightly considered seriously, but until then swapping the sgpc for the nangs, is like swapping jathedar shalli ram for jathedar gulli ram.

[Nihang Gargaj Singh]

Re-built the beautiful Tkaht of Guru Hargobind with bath-room tiles??? :shock:

The beautiful frecoe paintings depicting various valuable ithias and paintings of Gurus, Bhagats, and other great religious figures.....

where are the frescoes of my Guru's Takhat now!!!!

SIRI AKAAAAL JI SAHAI

[Guest Javanmard]

don't you know Nihang Ji, it's Taliban party at the moment!!! Let's destroy our art and cultural heritage... let's make things easier for the RSS and missionaries :evil: :evil: :evil:

[Nihal_Kaur]

Fat people should not make insulting remarks about other people's weight.

8)

[Guest inderjit]

lol, well i didnt really wanna go there, but if ur gonna go down that road.... have you seen yourself lately as well then??? you aint exactly a cat walk model yourself either!!!

i dont matter, im not the general of the akal purkh ki fauj... surely the jathedar is suppossed the set a certain standard, and if one of the principle roles of the nihang fauj is to defend sikhi in battle, then surely the general should be in resonable shape to do so, obviously if he was of a certain age and therefore could not take part in combat is one thing, but just being obese is another!!!

and no matter what i am, im sure i could sit on a horse without the poor thing near enough breaking its legs!! (seen from a picture in photo book from dtf)

also rather than take this to a weight thing, perhaps nihal kaur you could answer the other points raised?

and if u think im being rude by my above comment, then all im gonna say is,

if u wanna play with fire, be ready to be burnt

[Guest kaur1699]

Fateh Ji,

I'm not too sure whats going on here but can we please stick to the topic in hand.

Any comments that are made which are personal attacks or anything like that will not be tolerated and will be removed/edited.

Thanks

[Nihal_Kaur]

me? not a catwalk model???? what a ridiuculous idea :shock:

But since you have so kindly removed this deception, I can perhaps stop tinking about my beauty for a moment to answer your question. the topic I think refers to jathedar of akal purkh ki fauj being overweight. (God has it come to this? but anyway..)

I agree with you, said jathedaar should be an example. If the horses legs were indeed about to break (i hope you asked the horse) then that is a pity. You however give no allowances for illness and old age. I am pretty sure this is keeping Santa Singh up at night.

Instead of insults, I propose the two of us go on a slim fast plan, then tell the baba ji about our results...you know, encouragement is better than criticism....

[tSingh]

I thought that photo showed Baba Santa Singh displaying expertise on the horse for Hola Mohalla (hence the back legs are bent) - that's what the captions says anyway - I take it you saw the photo in 'The Sikhs' by Khushwant Singh and Raghu Rai.

[Guest inderjit]

yeh thats the pic, i wont pretend to be an expert on horses, but the guy with me has been riding and training horses for a number of years, and he winced when he saw that picture!!

and sorry nihal but this topic isnt about santa's weight, its actually about the notion of wether or not the budha dal could come back to the akal takhat and what would happen if that occured. you can see that from the title of the topic, if you bothered reading it and the following posts.

the issue of weight was only ONE point, concerning the neccesity of installing a lift so that santa could get into and out of the akal takhat. im just being practical.

and also i do actually give allowance for old age..... please read my post.

if he is ill, then ill with what? once again serious question (sorry for this being off topic) if he is genuinly ill and that increases his weight and makes him appear obese then fair enough, but otherwise if the leader of the army cant even control his own stomach then how can he hope to control the akal takhat!??!

if u do wanna continue this discussion please try and keep it somehow related thanks. (a good starting point for you nihal might be to read the posts.. yes thats right R E A D )

[Nihal_Kaur]

[sukhsingh]

and also i do actually give allowance for old age..... please read my post.

if he is ill, then ill with what? once again serious question (sorry for this being off topic) if he is genuinly ill and that increases his weight and makes him appear obese then fair enough, but otherwise if the leader of the army cant even control his own stomach then how can he hope to control the akal takhat!??!

thats not true, some ppl can control there weight some can't

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

Dear All, let's get back to the matter in hand -Buddha Dal in control of the Akal Thakt.

Whatever one's views on the SGPC, one common occurring theme that is often aired by those outside of Punjab and India, is that the SGPC is out of touch with issues arising in the Diaspora...whilst this is another topic in itself, I would like to consider what the Buddha Dal have to offer, over and above the re-instatement of heritage and puratan marayada (depending on your take this matter) in the Akal Thakt...

-how much influence can the Buddha Dal exhort in Punjab and India for the Sikhs at large (i.e. those not living within the Dal lifestyle), matters have changed since they were last in power and with that so too have the Dal but to what degree will they need to adapt themselves or indeed have the Panth adapt to them?

-how well can the Buddha Dal relate to issues arising in the Diaspora that face the panth at large (can the presence of Nihangs in the UK and California help in this instance -are these groups consolidated?)

-do the Buddha Dal have the professional means to take on power and remain free from political party influence (as the SGPC have failed to do time and again)

...I ask these questions, more for comparative purposes between the Dal 'today' and the present incumbents of the Akal Thakt...with the hope we can get a deeper look into the functioning of the Buddha Dal (and by consequence, puratan Sikh Polity) compared with the approach presently adopted by the SGPC...

forgive me, if the foregoing offends anyone...hoping we can have a sensible discussion without any personal antagonism...

GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!

[Guest BikramjitSingh]

I know that this will irk many people but the view I get from the people I have chatted to in Punjab is that most Sikhs have a low opinion of Nihangs. This is in marked contrast with some Sikhs in the UK who have a great deal of respect for Nihangs.

This maybe because there are many layabouts who dress up in Nihang Bana and refuse to pay for the bus fare or train fare. The Buddha Dal is also viewed with suspicion by mainstream Sikhs because of the way it acted against Sikh interests by rebuilding the Akal Takht in 1984

For most Sikhs in Punjab the Nihang is just someone who is workshy and being unwilling to do honest labour he joins a Nihang Jatha.

As for taking over the Akal Takht, they wouldn't be able to convince the Sikhs that they would be able to do the job any better than the SGPC. No matter how bad the SGPC might be, the Sikhs would never allow the Buddha Dal and it's dubious leader Santa Singh to take over the Akal Takht.

[Niranjana]

Gur Fateh!

Bikramjit Singh, I agree that your comments may irk 'some' people, however those who are acquainted with the ways of Nihangta should themselves know the truth insofar as the 'nangs' that you referred to are concerned.

I would agree that the general opinion of Nihang Singhs in India is poor as for reasons you mentioned -Nihangs themselves know this -there are indeed many who don the neela bana for an easy life of fare-free rides and free food through effective begging...indeed this would form a large part of the obstacles the Buddha Dal would face in getting more credible recognition.

That said, there are parts of me that feel the SGPC is likely to experience further turmoil, not necessarily at the hands of intellectual groups or Nihangs, but from various sangats (be they Jathas, Deras or just general Sangat) over the coming years as it is fast losing credibility in the eyes of many Sikhs through their recent actions...whether or not this will be enough for them to be rejected from the Akal Thakt, I couldn't possibly comment...additionally, who would realistically replace them? I don't know either...

...it's rather like the UK political solution, Tony Blair and the Labour Government have run out of steam, have continously failed to deliver, have seen severe genereal public opposition in addition to specialist group opposition increase, however are still in power simply because there is no alternative that the majority of UK voters recognise as a feasible alternative...

...I guess what temporal leaders themselves would really want is to be more like the American Model with the voting population hopelessly patriotic about warped accounts of their past history and spoonfed notions of freedom of speech, however if one so much as questions the temporal leadership, accusations of unpatriotic behaviour through to being opposition political party insiders are quick to be brandished about...that way their rule is guaranteed...just look at the differing domestic relations that Bush and Blair experience on their home grounds...this is something I see happening in ALL Sikh institutions and is something we need to be increasingly aware of...

Please forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing,

Forever at the feet of the Sadh Sangat,

GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!