chatanga1 Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 The sick parasite network have put up one of their favourite shabads to misquote. This is one of the 25 shabads that missionaries are taught in their college before they buy the appellation of "Bhai" or they have the option to learn some more shabads and become a "Professor." The reason why this shabad was one of those chosen for their 25 shabad syllabus is because of the connection with reincarnation. The missionaries believe that there is no such thing as reincarnation and that humans only have one life. That is why this shabad is one of the main ones they concentrate on. Their focus is to determine that the thoughts of Bhagat Tirlochan are not on birth , reincarnation and life but to say that Bhagat Tirlochan was talking about something which they fail to say. This article is written by some "doctor" called karminder, who is a big favourite of that rat aman on sick parasite network. I have highlighted this "doctors" words in green and my own opinions in black. As you will see from the the thoughts of this doctor, he is looking to disprove the shabad itself rather than give an explanation of what it means. From sick parasite network: The complete Shabd is as follows: ਗੂਜਰੀ ॥ Goojaree: ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts, ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਮਰਨ ਵੇਲੇ ਧਨ-ਪਦਾਰਥ ਚੇਤੇ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਇਸੇ ਸੋਚ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਮਰ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੧॥ shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1|| ਉਹ ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਸੱਪ ਦੀ ਜੂਨੇ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ।੧। ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause|| ਹੇ ਭੈਣ! (ਮੇਰੇ ਲਈ ਅਰਦਾਸ ਕਰ) ਮੈਨੂੰ ਕਦੇ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਨਾਹ ਭੁੱਲੇ (ਤਾਂ ਜੁ ਅੰਤ ਵੇਲੇ ਭੀ ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਹੀ ਚੇਤੇ ਆਵੇ) ।ਰਹਾਉ। ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts, ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਮਰਨ ਸਮੇਂ (ਆਪਣੀ) ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਯਾਦ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਇਸੇ ਯਾਦ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਾਣ ਤਿਆਗ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥ shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2|| ਉਹ ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਵੇਸਵਾ ਦਾ ਜਨਮ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ।੨। ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts, ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਅੰਤ ਵੇਲੇ (ਆਪਣੇ) ਪੱੁਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਯਾਦ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਪੁੱਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਯਾਦ ਕਰਦਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੀ ਮਰ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥ shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3|| ਉਹ ਸੂਰ ਦੀ ਜੂਨੇ ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਜੰਮਦਾ ਹੈ ।੩। ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts, ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਅਖ਼ੀਰ ਵੇਲੇ (ਆਪਣੇ) ਘਰ ਮਹਲ-ਮਾੜੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਾਹੁਕੇ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਇਹਨਾਂ ਹਾਹੁਕਿਆਂ ਵਿਚ ਸਰੀਰ ਛੱਡ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥ shall be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. ||4|| ਉਹ ਮੁੜ ਮੁੜ ਪੇ੍ਰਤ ਬਣਦਾ ਹੈ ।੪। ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts, ਤ੍ਰਿਲੋਚਨ ਆਖਦਾ ਹੈ—ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੇਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਯਾਦ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਇਸ ਯਾਦ ਵਿਚ ਟਿਕਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੀ ਚੋਲਾ ਤਿਆਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥ says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2|| ਉਹ ਮਨੁੱਖ (ਧਨ, ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ, ਪੁੱਤਰ ਤੇ ਘਰ ਆਦਿਕ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਤੋਂ) ਆਜ਼ਾਦ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਦੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪ ਆ ਵੱਸਦਾ ਹੈ ।੫।੨। The question that needs to be examined pertains to whether this a correct translation of the verses that are composed by Bhagat Tirlocan ji and contained in the SGGS on page 526. Or are the verses wrongly translated because they are interpreted based on concepts and ideas that are contained in Vedic scriptures – in particular the Upanishads and the Garrur puran (one of the 18 purans) that focuses on the issue of what happens after life: Look at the use of the words" interpreted based on concepts and ideas that are contained in Vedic scriptures" . Immediately the reader is lead to beleive that it was some people who interpreted this from an Hindu angle. But all those who had translated this were Sikhs, inc the well cited translation of Sahib Singh. But to get anyone doubting anything in gurbani, throw up the bogey of "hindu/brahman/vedas" etc. To answer that question, it is perhaps worth looking first at some of the PROBLEMS that arise out of such a translation that is based on external and non- Gurbani sources such as the Garrur puran and other Vedic texts. A DEFECTIVE TRANSLATION – PROBLEM NUMBER ONE Let us first look at the translation of Verse Two as provided. ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥ ੨ ॥ Aant Kaal Jo Esteri Simrey Aisee Chinta Meh Jey Mrey. Besva Joan Val Val Autrey. Translation: At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. || 2 || SANT SINGH KHALSA The first problem that comes to mind is that a PROSTITUTE is not a Joon; not a life form. Going by the notion of reincarnation as contained in the Vedic texts, one could be reincarnated as an animal, insect, bird; as a mammal, reptile or amphibian because these are life forms. But one CANNOT be reincarnated as a prostitute. And certainly NOT again and again. A PROSTITTUTE is simply NOT a life form. One is not BORN a prostitute. One BECOMES a prostitute – while living in the life form of A HUMAN BEING. One becomes a prostitute by choosing to adopt certain actions and behaviors. It is clear therefore that to say that the verse ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥ ੨ ॥ Aant Kaal Jo Esteri Simrey Aisee Chinta Meh Jey Mrey. Besva Joan Val Val Autrey translates as above makes no sense BECAUSE A PROSTITUTE IS NOT A JOON. So that’s problem number one. The meaning of JOON does NOT fit verse two. A PROSTITUTE IS NOT A JOON. The logical conclusion therefore is that the translation is wrong. karminders thinking here is that a joon can only mean body. Joon does not mean only body. it means "incarnation". It means a person received another life. Gurbani time and time again mention "jon" which is rebirth. Coming onto the point about a prostitute being a life-choice, karminder most likely doesn't know of the tradition in India, of prostitutes raising their daughters to be prostitutes as a long-standing tradition. Yes, that is correct, there were tribes (and still are) certain tribes who practise this tradition of raising their daughters to be prostitutes. "Devdasi" is a name that springs immediately to mind. These young girls are NOT given a life-choice of whether they want to do it or not. Just as slaves were NOT givena chnace to become slaves. They were made into slaves, and their children were born and died as slaves. The idea that these people made a life choice by choosing to adopt certain actions and behaviours to become slaves is ludicrous. The logical conclusion therefore is that a lifetime of being a prostitute is in itself a joon. A DEFECTIVE TRANSLATION – PROBLEM NUMBER TWO If indeed the translation is “At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. || 2 ||” then one has to accept that Bhagat Tarlochan is gender biased – at least in this particular verse. The translation ‘he who thinks of women’ only applies only to males. What would a “woman who thinks of a man at the very last moment” be “reincarnated over and over again” as? Or are we to accept that the verse only applies to one half of the human race. The other half – in the form of women – stands exempted from the foretelling prophecies of the verse? Or worse, that women stand outside the sphere of spirituality altogether? Or worst, that Sikh spirituality is irrelevant to them; that they can think of men on their death bed and it would make no difference? The "istri" here isn't some random women, but a wife. So does that mean that this verse only applies to one-half of the human race? Is this verse gender biased? Is it the only verse as such in SGGS? What about this line which says " ਕੁਬੁਧਿ ਡੂਮਣੀ ਕੁਦਇਆ ਕਸਾਇਣਿ ਪਰ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਘਟ ਚੂਹੜੀ ਮੁਠੀ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਚੰਡਾਲਿ ॥ False-mindedness is the drummer-woman; cruelty is the butcheress; slander of others in one's heart is the cleaning-woman, and deceitful anger is the outcast-woman." Notice how everyone is a woman? Does that mean that only women are bad? Are 50% of the human race bad according to gurbani? or " ਗਊ ਭੈਸ ਮਗਉ ਲਾਵੇਰੀ ॥ A milk cow, and a water buffalo, I beg of You, ਹੇ ਗੋਪਾਲ! ਮੈਂ ਗਾਂ ਮਹਿੰ ਲਵੇਰੀ (ਭੀ) ਮੰਗਦਾ ਹਾਂ, ਇਕ ਤਾਜਨਿ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੰਗੇਰੀ ॥ and a fine Turkestani horse. ਤੇ ਇਕ ਚੰਗੀ ਅਰਬੀ ਘੋੜੀ ਭੀ ਚਾਹੀਦੀ ਹੈ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਗੀਹਨਿ ਚੰਗੀ ॥ A good wife to care for my home ਘਰ ਦੀ ਚੰਗੀ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਭੀ ਲੈਂਦਾ ਹਾਂ ।੨।੧। ਜਨੁ ਧੰਨਾ ਲੇਵੈ ਮੰਗੀ ॥੨॥੪॥ - Your humble servant Dhanna begs for these things, Lord. ||2||4|| ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰਾ ਦਾਸ ਧੰਨਾ ਤੈਥੋਂ ਮੰਗ" So when a women sings this shabad is she asking Waheguru to give her a good wife ? The line of this shabad is to say that one the point of death a person's thought should not move towards their wife/family. This theme is mentioned in Gurbani many times. What would we make then of the Gurbani verse on page 747 which makes clear that the messages of Gurbani are common for the entirety of mankind? ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥ Khatree Brahmin Sood Vais Updes Chau Varna Ko Sanjha. The messages ਉਪਦੇਸੁ Updes is one, common and the same ਸਾਝਾ Sanjha for the entirety of mankind; EVEN IF it stands divided ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ Chou Varna as four castes ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ Khatree Brahmin Sood Vai. Surely the one half of human race that is female is part of the entirety of mankind – whether divided into four castes by the pre-1469 religions – or united as equal by the spirituality of Guru Nanak and Sikhi. For Guru Nanak to have personally selected this (and other) Shabds of Bhagat Tarlochan, for Guru Arjun to have included it in the Pothi Sahib; and for Guru Gobind Singh to have endorsed it as Gurbani and part of our Guru – the SGGS – surely Bhagat Tarlochan and his compositions must meet the benchmark of the “unified nature” of mankind as the basic principle of Gurmat. In other words, the very fact that the Shabd under discussion is included in the SGGS is clear and unequivocal evidence that Bhagat Tarlochan is a non-subscriber to the divisive principles – caste, gender and any other – of the pre-1469 religions. Yet the translation of the verse as provided seems to portray Bhagat Tarlochan as exactly the reverse. The WHOLE world does not fall in these 4 varnas. Only those people who lived in that land were part of this structure. So does that mean that Gurbani is only for these 4 varans? What about the Khalsa which claims to above these structures? According to karminders idea Gurbani wouldn'e even be for the Khalsa. What karminderhas tried to do is twist gurbani around to say these four varans are only of importance, whereas Guru Sahib said that the message is the same no matter which of these four varans you belong to. A defective opinion offered by karminder. A DEFECTIVE TRANSLATION – PROBLEM NUMBER THREE An examination of the translation of Verse four brings forth problem number three. ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥ ੪ ॥ Aant Kaal Jo Mandir Simrey Aisee Chinta Meh Jey Mrey. Preyt Joan Val Val Autrey. The translation that is given is: At the very last moments of life, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts, shall be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. || 4 || SANT SINGH KHALSA The question that needs to be examined pertains to the existence of a goblin. A goblin obviously does not exist in the physical sense. It certainly does not exist as a life form. The usage of the word “form” in the phrase “life form” means it must have a form. How could one be reincarnated as a goblin if it did not exist? So we have two joons or two life forms that are problematic. A prostitute is NOT a Joon and the Goblin does NOT exist physically. A pret is not a goblin. A goblin is something That if it exists is something visible to the eye, whereas a "pret" is a ghost, with a body that is not visible to the eye. You can see the shallowness of karminders thoughts on his views of goblins. The meaning of this line is that a person should not be attached to his home/property that it is in his final moments of life. The line is to do with moh rather than being anything else. karminders defective translation problem number three is corrected. A DEFECTIVE TRANSLATION – PROBLEM NUMBER FOUR An examination of the translation of verse FIVE brings forth problem number three: ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥ ੫ ॥ ੨ ॥ Aant Kaal Narayan Simrey Aisee Chinta Meh Jey Mrey. Badt Tilochan Tay Nur Mukta Pitambar Va Kay Ridey Bsey. The translation as provided is: At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts, says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. || 5 || 2 || SANT SINGH KHALSA If indeed this translation is true; then the way to “liberation” for anyone who desires liberation is truly very simple. Going by the logic of the translation, one could spend one’s entire lifetime doing all the WRONG things one desires. Going by the rationality of the translation, we could spend our entire life time indulging in sinful activities, negative thoughts, hurtful activities; and devote our life towards activities pertaining to thievery, lies and deceit. We could dedicate our whole life living a lie and indulging in vices. But if AT THE TIME OF DEATH, DURING THE LAST MOMENTS OF DEATH, we could think of the Lord – or say His name, and die in such thoughts – and we will be liberated. Now that would be as wonderful as it is easy. One minute of death bed thinking of God would get us liberated, and into heaven. Just like that. There would indeed be NO need for spirituality. No need to spend a lifetime of learning of doing good. No need to contribute to humanity and make our world a better place than the one we were born into. No need for reading Gurbani etc. No need to know and understand 1429 pages of SGGS. The only thing that would matter would be the FINAL FEW moments of life – ten or twenty seconds before we die – all we will need to do is to think of the Lord during this time and we will be liberated. It hardly needs to be said that such a notion is most ridiculous. It is ludicrous, if not absurd by the most rudimentary percepts of just about any spirituality. Surely Guru Nanak and the succeeding Gurus didn’t spend 240 years traveling far and wide and writing 1429 pages of Gurbani to tell us such an absurd thing. It is obvious therefore that the translation of the verses as provided above are deeply faulty. Only a person who knows the final moments can explain this, but they are not of this life anymore so it would be kind of hard for them to explain wouldn't it? But I would say that when a person is close to death, then only the very strong-willed may keep them selves under some kind of mental composure to think of the supreme being. I think most would be crying for help. With only a fraction of deaths being known about, some could turn their final thoughts to the Supreme being. But with so many deaths being instantaneous how could anyone think of God before its too late and they are dead. In this line the question that needs asking is why "ਚਿੰਤਾ " is in there? Chinta is a negative aspect of the word "think". It means to fret, or to be anxious about something. To worry. Then at the end of this sentence Bhagat Tirlochan writes, "Narayan will reside in his heart." What heart? The person will be dead and cremated very soon after. The line "ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥ ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥ ੫ ॥ ੨ ॥" To me, this means "at the end of that time, should that person who has remembered Narayan (not just at the point of death but throughout their life) have any worries, Tarlochan knows that person to be mukt and Peetambar to be residing in his heart. The word "ਬਦਤਿ " can mean "knows." So to end this Bhagat Tirlochan is telling himself that the simran of Narayan is necessary and that he should not abandon it or be careless in it. ANother defective translation of karminders corrected. A DEFECTIVE TRANSLATION – PROBLEM NUMBER FIVE The fifth problem pertains to the nature of death as we understand it. A great many people die of strokes, heart attacks, in accidents, of gunshot wounds, of lightning strikes, falls, overdoses, in car mishaps, airplane crashes etc. The list is long. A great many people go into comas for hours, days, weeks or even months before they die. Many millions die in their sleep. In short a great number of people die SUDDEN deaths. For the very large majority of people therefore, death is always sudden. It is always UNEXPECTED. Death is WITHOUT NOTICE for a vast majority of human beings. Death is without WARNING. And if this is the case, then its logical to accept that a very LARGE majority of people – close to 99 percent of humans have NO opportunity to even formulate their thoughts during their final moments of life just before death. How does one even know when the last moments of life are when no one actually knows when death is coming.? So how is the so called reincarnation formula going to be decided for these 99% of people who met sudden deaths? Going by such logic, sudden deaths have NO ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਸਿਮਰੈ Ant Kaal Simrey. At the very least sudden deaths have NO ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ Antt Kaal moments that one could be AWARE OF in the first place. In other words, how is anyone to know when one’s ANT KAAL is, when NO ONE EVER knows the moment of death. One would have to know that I am dying at 7.15 am. Then at 7.14 am I start to think of the Lord. And then at 7.15 am that would be my final thought, my last thought, my dying thought. Then, and only then, according to the translation above, would I qualify for liberation. As defeatist as it may sound, it must be said that the only people who probably know they are going to die at 7:15 am are those who have made arrangements for suicide. Even then there would be no guarantee that death would indeed occur at 7: 15 am. What this means that IF WE accept the translation of the verses as above, then this final verse only apples to a miniscule number of the people who through some miraculous powers unknown to mankind, KNOW when they are going to die, and know when their ANT KAAL is, who then make a CHOICE of WHAT to think of (woman, wealth, children, mansions, and God). The point of the shabad is that when someone is on the verge of dying, they should still their mind and think of the next phase of their journey. Most people will wake up that day not expecting to die, and of most it is sudden. For those there is no time to contemplate on anything. So although what karminder says here is true it has no bearing on those who die instant sudden deaths. The shabad is really there to understand whilst you are alive. A DEFECTIVE TRANSLATION – PROBLEM NUMBER SIX. The sixth problem with the translations as provided pertains to the 8.4 million life forms that form the basis of the Vedic theory concerning reincarnation. Sans the Rahao Verse, this shabd has five verses. Four are about reincarnations in various forms. The first talks about reincarnating as a serpent, the second as a prostitute, the third as a pig and the fourth as a goblin. These are four life forms – according to the translation. But since we have determined that prostitute and goblin are NOT life forms; we are left with two: the serpent and the pig. The question that needs examining is this: are these two the ONLY life forms that human beings reincarnate into? What final thoughts at one’s death bed are required for reincarnating into the remaining 8.4 million life forms? Why are two life forms – serpent and pig – being singled out by Bhagat Tarlochan ji in this Shabd? "ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਭ੍ਰਮਤਿਆ ਦੁਲਭ ਜਨਮੁ ਪਾਇਓਇ ॥ Through 8.4 million incarnations you have wandered, to obtain this rare and precious human life. (ਹੇ ਭਾਈ !) ਚੌਰਾਸੀ ਲੱਖ ਜੂਨਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਭੌਂ ਭੌਂ ਕੇ ਤੂੰ ਹੁਣ ਇਹ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਬੜੀ ਮੁਸ਼ਕਿਲ ਨਾਲ ਲੱਭਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ ਤੂੰ ਸੋ ਦਿਨੁ ਨੇੜਾ ਆਇਓਇ ॥੪॥੨੨॥੯੨॥ O Nanak, remember the Naam, the Name of the Lord; the day of departure is drawing near! ||4||22||92|| ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ ! (ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ) ਨਾਮ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਵਸਾ, ਉਹ ਦਿਨ ਨੇੜੇ ਆ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ (ਜਦੋਂ ਇਥੋਂ ਕੂਚ ਕਰਨਾ ਹੈ) ।੪।੨੨।੯੨।" This shabad amongst numerous others prove that 8.4 million life forms is not only a vedic theory. This churasi lakh comes up so many times in gurbani. If the Guru's were not beleivers of this theory they would have written it just as explicitly as they have concerning 8.4 million. We shold ask "why pig/serpent"? Karminder asks this as well, but he doesnt provide an answer. The answer is that these forms amongst the others mentioned are all low forms of life. Neech joon. Just as in humans there are those privileged and those not.Just as in the world today we have certain notions about certain animals. People keep dogs as pets yet beat them and are cruel to them. People kill snakes and hate them. The use of these animals here isn't to say that this is your future life, but to say that these forms are low and suffer in the world, and they are not good forms to be born into. A DEFECTIVE TRANSLATION – PROBLEM NUMBER SEVEN. The seventh problem with the translation above has got to do with its prophetic nature. If indeed the translation is correct that a person who thinks of woman at the time of death will be reincarnated as a prostitute in his or her next life – then this amounts to a prophecy. Serious students of Gurbani know that the SGGS does not indulge in prophecies. Certainly not in matters concerning what would happen to us after death. Gurmat accepts the task of birth and death are the responsibility of our Creator alone. This is what Guru Nanak has to say about what happens to life after death. This is on page 648. ਮ: ੧ ॥ ਇਕ ਦਝਹਿ ਇਕ ਦਬੀਅਹਿ ਇਕਨਾ ਕੁਤੇ ਖਾਹਿ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਪਾਣੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਉਸਟੀਅਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਭੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਹਸਣਿ ਪਾਹਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵ ਨ ਜਾਪਈ ਕਿਥੈ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥ ੨ ॥ M: 1. Ek Dajhey Ek Dubbeah Ekna Kutey Khahey. Ek Panni Vich Usatteah Ek Bhi Fir Hasann Pahe. Nanak Eyv Na Japyee Kithey Jaye Smahe. Meaning: Some burn their dead, some bury, some allow animals to consume them. Some are discarded in water, some in wells. Nanak, no one knows where they go and reside. How could it be that we have Guru Nanak ji saying on Page 648 that no one knows where the dead go and reside, but we have Tirlochan saying on page 526 that he can predict (according to the translation above) where dead will go and under what conditions, as decided by what their dying thoughts are? Another defective reason of claiming there is no prophesy in SGGS: ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up. (ਪਰ ਹੇ ਭਾਈ ਲਾਲੋ! ਜਦ ਤਕ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਪਰਵਿਰਤ ਹਨ, ਅਜੇਹੇ ਘੱਲੂ-ਘਾਰੇ ਵਾਪਰਦੇ ਹੀ ਰਹਿਣੇ ਹਨ, ਮੁਗ਼ਲ ਅੱਜ) ਸੰਮਤ ਅਠੱਤਰ ਵਿਚ ਆਏ ਹਨ, ਇਹ ਸੰਮਤ ਸਤਾਨਵੇ ਵਿਚ ਚਲੇ ਜਾਣਗੇ, ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਭੀ ਉੱਠ ਖੜਾ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ । ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਸੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ ॥੨॥੩॥੫॥ Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time. ||2||3||5|| (ਜੀਵ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਰੰਗ ਵਿਚ ਮਸਤ ਹੋ ਕੇ ਉਮਰ ਅਜਾਈਂ ਗਵਾ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ) ਨਾਨਕ ਤਾਂ (ਇਸ ਵੇਲੇ ਭੀ) ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਸਾਰੀ ਉਮਰ ਹੀ) ਇਹ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਕਰਦਾ ਰਹੇਗਾ, ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਇਹ ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜਨਮ ਦਾ ਸਮਾ ਸਿਫ਼ਤਿ-ਸਾਲਾਹ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਹੀ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਹੈ ।੨।੩।੫।" it's clear there is. As for prophesy in terms of the future when someone has died : "ਲਖ ਸੀਗਾਰ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਕਾਰਜਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੇਤੁ ॥ She may wear thousands of ornaments, but they are of no use at all. ਉਹ ਭਾਵੇਂ ਲੱਖਾਂ ਹਾਰ ਸ਼ਿੰਗਾਰ ਕਰੇ, (ਉਸ ਦੇ) ਕਿਸੇ ਕੰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਉਂਦੇ । ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਨਿ ਦੇਹ ਬਿਨਸਸੀ ਤਿਤੁ ਵੇਲੈ ਕਹਸਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਤੁ ॥ On that day when the body perishes-at that time, she becomes a ghost. ਜਿਸ ਦਿਨ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦਾ ਸਰੀਰ ਨਾਸ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ (ਜਦੋਂ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਮਰ ਜਾਇਗਾ) ਉਸ ਵੇਲੇ (ਸਾਰੇ ਸਾਕ-ਅੰਗ) ਆਖਣਗੇ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਹੁਣ ਗੁਜ਼ਰ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ । (ਲੋਥ ਅਪਵਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਈ ਹੈ, ਇਸ ਨੂੰ ਛੇਤੀ ਬਾਹਰ ਲੈ ਚੱਲੋ)" How could Guru Ajran Dev ji prophesise this? Conclusion: As this is a shabad which emphasises the existence of reincarnation it is one of those 25 taken by the missionaries and distorted. The essence of this shabad is not to dwell on the future life forms but to avoid them. Bhagat Ji in all the life forms has used MOH and the results of it by listing low status reincarnations. The list of low status reincarnations is as endless as nature. Bhagat Ji if he wanted to, could have used insects, maggots, ants, anything! The key is not to get stuck on what Bhagat Ji has listed. From the way karminder (and the rest of them) distort this shabad it is clear that they have no sense of mysticism. Everything to these missionaries is black and white. Even dhadriwala is quoting this shabad recently and distorting it in the same way. These people are so troubled with hindu phobia. The rats at spn are blind. They just follow everything karminder says without analysing it. esp his favourite pet rat aman. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulfinder Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 @chatanga1Very good points veer ji you made on the shabad meanings 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulfinder Posted May 22, 2019 Report Share Posted May 22, 2019 @chatanga1 veer ji here is some katha links i have found on the shabad done by many sants and kathavacks Veer ji very good effort you have made in writting this deeply detailed points describing the arth of the shabad. Here is a few katha links i am gonnna share based on 4 tracks based on the same shabad but by different sants and katha kaars. Here is gyani thakur singh on the shabad http://gurbaniupdesh.org/multimedia/04-Katha/13-Giani Thakur Singh Ji (Patiala Wale)/Katha Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji/CD08(Ang0470-0618)/0618-Ang-0526-Pankti-05.mp3 Here is sant jagjit singh ji harkowale on the shabad katha at 19:30 track http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Baba_Jagjit_Singh_(Harkhowal_wale)/Sri_Guru_Granth_Sahib_Ji_Di_Lareevar_Katha/Baba.Jagjit.Singh.(Harkhowal.wale)--0219.Sri.Guru.Granth.Sahib.Katha.-.Ang.0525.to.0526.mp3 Here is Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji on the shabad at 17:10 onwards http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Gurbachan_Singh_(Bhindran_wale)/Guru_Granth_Sahib_Larivaar_Katha/Volume_06_Ang_0462-0536/072--Sant.Gurbachan.Singh.(Bhindran.wale)--Raag.Goojri.(Bhagat.Bani)--Ang-525%2B526.mp3 Here is Sant Avtar Singh Ji on the shabad at 20mins and the 2nd track continues http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Bhai_Avtar_Singh_(Badni_Kalan_wale)/Katha_Sri_Guru_Granth_Sahib_Ji/CD_12/17--Bhai.Avtar.Singh--Katha.Guru.Granth.Sahib.Ji.Vol.12--Ang.525%2C.Line.18.mp3 http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Bhai_Avtar_Singh_(Badni_Kalan_wale)/Katha_Sri_Guru_Granth_Sahib_Ji/CD_12/18--Bhai.Avtar.Singh--Katha.Guru.Granth.Sahib.Ji.Vol.12--Ang.526%2C.Line.06.mp3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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