Spiritual adepts and kamic relation

[Guest Jitsingh Gojra]

Hello to you all and Wahe Guru,

I have a thought in mind for sometime and not have had the ability to understand how to articulate it clearly, however reading some of the posts I am very surprised to the knowledge of the Sikh community who have explained meditation concepts in very simple terms. Being honest, I always had a narrow-minded view of the Sikh community, it lacking the knowledge of the sciences in meditation, explaining the various forms of consciousness how they relate to one another leading to enlightenment. Guess I owe this to the lack of written matterials written by genuine members of the Sikh community who I now think can certainly trace their spiritual heritage back to the masters during the time of the 10 Sat Guru`s. Not spending much time on the forum and reading through some of the posts I am astounded at the clarity and knowledge individuals on this platform have and have articulated their knowledge so well in the sciences of meditation, explaining the various forms of consciousness how they relate to one another which progress to enlightenment. Also my narrow minded view is biased to reading the Buddhist literature of which there is such a rich and incredible amount available online from amazon, waterstones etc I have purchased these to expand my understanding of these sciences, but in doing I rejected my own religion and its teachings. Perhaps some of the credible individuals here will be motivated to get some of their knowledge that they have shared here and make it available in binding, leverage the strength of commercialism and donate to the proceedings to many needed causes that the youth in Sikh communities within India are facing today such as drugs alcohol misuse and crime.

 My question - As I am on the questions part of the forum is this - I understand that (Hindu/Jain description here) as a should enters this material plain, it also bring along with its karma, the karma is manifested in the form particles both having negative effect and a positive effect that surround you always (I also think it includes an individual consciousness expressed through competent awareness when socialised with many souls (our family, friends and people known and unknown to you) have a direct effect in your way of and how you will grow spiritually or not - pulled to the overuse of drugs, alcohol and materialism, sex and crime. Through the practice of meditation through which ever method appeals to you, your karma being positive or negative support or create obstacles for you to progress in gaining self-realization (the realization of your soul) - Question is, if an individual is experiencing a lot of negativity in life, not getting any support from anyone what so ever, is able to progress spiritually and realise states of the great void at ease, control hind mind, do "real yoga" (not just the physical but the in mind also sukha and stira Calm and focused mind (Patanjali) achieves self-realisation in meditation does he see his soul and other souls, their karma, their potential in coping with their karma. From this point would it right to say that this potential defines what we would call Meditation masters, yoga adepts, saints and sages and prophets?

 I thank you all in advance for your promt response to my question.

Best Regards and Wahe Guru,

Jitsingh Gojra

[harsharan000]

2 hours ago, Guest Jitsingh Gojra said:

Hello to you all and Wahe Guru,

My question - As I am on the questions part of the forum is this - I understand that (Hindu/Jain description here) as a should enters this material plain, it also bring along with its karma, the karma is manifested in the form particles both having negative effect and a positive effect that surround you always (I also think it includes an individual consciousness expressed through competent awareness when socialised with many souls (our family, friends and people known and unknown to you) have a direct effect in your way of and how you will grow spiritually or not - pulled to the overuse of drugs, alcohol and materialism, sex and crime. Through the practice of meditation through which ever method appeals to you, your karma being positive or negative support or create obstacles for you to progress in gaining self-realization (the realization of your soul) -

Question is, if an individual is experiencing a lot of negativity in life, not getting any support from anyone what so ever, is able to progress spiritually and realise states of the great void at ease, control hind mind, do "real yoga" (not just the physical but the in mind also sukha and stira Calm and focused mind (Patanjali) achieves self-realisation in meditation does he see his soul and other souls, their karma, their potential in coping with their karma. From this point would it right to say that this potential defines what we would call Meditation masters, yoga adepts, saints and sages and prophets?

I thank you all in advance for your promt response to my question.

Best Regards and Wahe Guru,

 

Jitsingh Gojra

 

Welcome Jitsingh Gojra Ji,

Just my 2 cents.

Nothing happens without karma. Whether familiy, friends, foes, loss, gains, birth , death, everything happens  with karma. There is although little free will. But this free will exercised   will be added in our store karma, and will ripe whenever and wherever the wise Nature thinks fit. Our limited present is a tiny fraction made out from our total past, and also our limited present will be added in our  karma storehouse.

So this karma theory is the secret of maintaing the creation in motion, from which none can escape, not even avtars, gods, godesses, devis, devtays, nor trinities, shaktis..... 

Only Guru Sahiban, Gurmukhs,  and Bhagat Jan of highest order, are the masters of the karmas with which they come at our human level, and the greatness about them unlike we moorakhs, is that they live accordingly and respecting the laws of Nature, they do not manipulate nor bribe anyone.

Living in His will at all times,  is their given  Hukum.  This is their apaar greatness, such is their sincere humility.

Though the effects of karmas and vikars, are terrible upon all beings, yet Waheguru, from His infinte love and mercy for all jeevas, has also given us a shelter to minimize and overcome those horrible effects on the jeev atmas.

But alas, nobody pays attention to it, though they may have memorized the Bani with each and every verse in it, but yet, they do not do, what the Bani, repeats constantly through out. 

One such descriptive verse is : AVAR KAAJ TERAY KITTAY NA KAAM, MIL SADH SANGAT BHAJ KEWAL NAM

This is  how, Kal, Maya and the mind, with its subordinates vikars, cheat the soul, making them believe, that whatsoever practices they are doing are very much accepted in His darbar, then again and again jeevas are dragged drowned into  the endless cycles of births and deaths.

You see, the main goal of sikhee is to set us free from all these dacoits mentioned above by defeating them with the sword of His Nao, and then go towards our origin Waheguru, just as bullet shot from a gun, to finally merge and become one with Him.

That´s it.

Seeing other souls, karmas, devis, devtays, trinities and whatsoever one wants, can be possible, for that, we have to arise to a certain conscious level within us. 

At our present level, we may be wanting all these things and find them logical to an extent, but that much can also be said, that once one engages in the devotion of His Nam bhakti, and as one progresses on that inner path towards our goal of Waheguru, by His kirpa, we start tasting the sweet Nectar of Immortality, or let us say Amrit Bani within us, and thus we want nothing, but Him only, just as a child lovingly and one pointedly "looks" at his Mother, for he knows nothing else besides his Mother.

This is the state of a true gursikh, all his earthly wishes, queries,  doubts, just desintegrate automatically, and one is left with only one burning desire, and that one is of  the meeting as soon as possible with his beloved, Waheguru Akal Purukh.

 

Stay blessed.

SSA.

 

 

 

[Guest Jitsingh Gojra]

Thank you for your reply harsharan00 SSA,

I am making progress here. It has brought some insight into importance of Karma and as such I have now a few points on your comments perhaps you could further clarify them. You mentioned that Guru Sahiban, Gurmukhs,  and Bhagat Jan of highest order come in human form. Question - As a child they would have been educated and taken to such teachers who initiuated them in te practices of Sikhi, meditation or a form of yoga/tai chi? So these individuals would the potential in them to exceed in these teachings surpass their teachers (in fact their teachers would probably know this prior to intiation) at a very young age. This would coincide with the many gurus that have left thier mark in sikhism and hinduism.
If I understand you correctly the path of sikhi has been created like many other teachings to guide us through our Karma with the wisdom to not be attatched to many attractions that you can obtain, attractions such shaktees/siddhis, the trinity, devtays etc to persevere to your true home the source from where you came from Waheguru Akal Purukh, am I correct here? - please try to explain like a six year will understand.
During in this journey, do you realise your true identity your soul and from here progress further through the forms of consciousness to realise your true source, do you see other souls and understand the nature of Karma? - hence why so many gurus describe karma and its nature in such similar ways. Again I ask this question from a differnt point - Does an individual who is receiving a lot of negative karma from others (this is an incorrect kamic action (free will - as you descibe) who has the potential to progress through these teachings rapidly with the guidance of a teacher make this person a spiritual adept.
Would it be correct to theorise that teachers can identify spiritual adepts by recognising thier Karma thorugh challenges they have in life personally and also by society combined with their pottential to progress in the teachings in meditation given by a teacher? Esentially these physical characteristics can be a mirror to an individuals soul, depictng whether they are a spritual adept etc (not a master, god, devtayy etc as you describe)?

Nature of Karma in action - what I mean to ask here is through our free will we have been given this life to have the opportunity to add to our a store house of Karma possitive Karma - all good possitive deeds (note - this does not mean you sacrifice an individual or even the poor and innocent for the greater good), these possitive deeds will manafest them selves through the spnaneous express of nature either in this life or the next huamn life form?

Your comment- "So this karma theory is the secret of maintaing the creation in motion" this provokes me to think there must be indviduals who have obtained knowledge of this secret, are there? and is there a creator of this karma? finally do you know of any stories that describe indiduals meeting with the creator of karma?

I thank you all in advance for your prompt response to my question.

Best Regards and Wahe Guru,

Jitsingh Gojra

[Mooorakh]

Waheguru ji.. 

Though your words are too twisted to enter my little ( tuchh) intellect. ( seems you have read a lot of gyaaan ) anyway as for karma and if I understand correctly you are worried about the negative people around you- who hinders your Bhakti - haina?? 

Kaal will try to pull you back.. In the form of negative people always... Your faith would make you stand straight..Buddha thas whom you have been following?? Did you realize the pain he went through before getting enlightened.. 

Dukh daaru sukh rog bhayaa

U have been unfortunate to not realize what treasure you have ( being a Sikh) in the form of SGGS ji. It's not late.. Start reading SGGS and the deeper you would dive the beautiful pearls you will fetch... 

Karama theory- I leave to you to find..  Nothing is straight forward in Granth Sahib cos its for the person of every one.. Who may be at any spiritual stage.... the one at first step would get a different answer from the one on the higher levels from the same pankti.. 

Do u understand punjabi by the way? 

 

 

[harsharan000]

9 hours ago, Guest Jitsingh Gojra said:

Thank you for your reply harsharan00 SSA,

I am making progress here. It has brought some insight into importance of Karma and as such I have now a few points on your comments perhaps you could further clarify them.

You mentioned that Guru Sahiban, Gurmukhs,  and Bhagat Jan of highest order come in human form.

Question - As a child they would have been educated and taken to such teachers who initiuated them in te practices of Sikhi, meditation or a form of yoga/tai chi? So these individuals would the potential in them to exceed in these teachings surpass their teachers (in fact their teachers would probably know this prior to intiation) at a very young age. This would coincide with the many gurus that have left thier mark in sikhism and hinduism.

If I understand you correctly the path of sikhi has been created like many other teachings to guide us through our Karma with the wisdom to not be attatched to many attractions that you can obtain, attractions such shaktees/siddhis, the trinity, devtays etc to persevere to your true home the source from where you came from Waheguru Akal Purukh, am I correct here? - please try to explain like a six year will understand.

During in this journey, do you realise your true identity your soul and from here progress further through the forms of consciousness to realise your true source, do you see other souls and understand the nature of Karma? - hence why so many gurus describe karma and its nature in such similar ways. Again I ask this question from a differnt point - Does an individual who is receiving a lot of negative karma from others (this is an incorrect kamic action (free will - as you descibe) who has the potential to progress through these teachings rapidly with the guidance of a teacher make this person a spiritual adept.

Would it be correct to theorise that teachers can identify spiritual adepts by recognising thier Karma thorugh challenges they have in life personally and also by society combined with their pottential to progress in the teachings in meditation given by a teacher? Esentially these physical characteristics can be a mirror to an individuals soul, depictng whether they are a spritual adept etc (not a master, god, devtayy etc as you describe)?

Nature of Karma in action - what I mean to ask here is through our free will we have been given this life to have the opportunity to add to our a store house of Karma possitive Karma - all good possitive deeds (note - this does not mean you sacrifice an individual or even the poor and innocent for the greater good), these possitive deeds will manafest them selves through the spnaneous express of nature either in this life or the next huamn life form?

Your comment- "So this karma theory is the secret of maintaing the creation in motion" this provokes me to think there must be indviduals who have obtained knowledge of this secret, are there? and is there a creator of this karma? finally do you know of any stories that describe indiduals meeting with the creator of karma?

I thank you all in advance for your prompt response to my question.

Best Regards and Wahe Guru,

Jitsingh Gojra

1)You are most welcome Brother Jitsingh Gojra.

 

2) Sometime ago I read a story of Fith Patshahee´s childhood.  Once He was playing with a ball, which rolled down under the bed of His nana Sri AmarDas Maharaj where He was sleeping. The "boy came and took the ball and went away, but somehow moved a bit the bed where Guru Jee was sleeping, so suddenly He woke up and asked His daughter what had happened as she was around, to which she told her Father what had exactly happened, upon hearing this, Sree Guru Amar Das Maharaj smiled and said, someday He will lift the world. By this we understand, that one day He will be  Guru Sahiban.

Maybe upon worldly and some other spheres, the students may surpass their teachers, but in the real spiritual realms and while talking about the highest level consciousness, such as Guru Sahiban, Gurmukh jan and Bhagat Jan, this is not the case, for all of them are as waves of that same Ocean, which regularly  come to the seashore to pick up those little drops (souls) who are ready to return in the Father after fulfilling their true bhakti as per Gurbani, thus ready to merge in that their Origin Waheguru Akal Purukh. 

No drop can go and merge into the Ocean by itself, nor that huge Infinite can take those drops and merge into Itself, unless, that very Inmense Ocean becomes a wave first. The wave may seem apart from the Ocean for a time being, but actually it is not, for while being at the seashore, it has not cut off itself from that Ocean from which it has emerged, rather it is very much a part of that Ocean. That is why, that wave and those drops, which the wave has wrapped in itself, all together merge and become one with that Mighty Immense  Ocean.

Another example is, all these pure spiritual beings mentioned above have the same intensity of Jot of Waheguru in them, thus none is superior, all are same, they have the same wisdom, the same love and mercy of Waheguru in them. 

in this respect the Bani says: Guru meree pooja, Guru Gobind, Guru mera Parbrahm, Guru bhagwant.

These spiritual Masters as Guru Sahiban, Gurmukhs and Bhagat Jan, out of His beant mercy, and under His Hukum, come for only one purpose, which is of awakening us from our deep lethargy of Maya and reveal us the mysteries of that one universal Supreme Truth, which is Nam/Shabad/Amrit Bani/ Anhad Naad.... all different terms, but pointers to that same eternal reality or Truth of Satnam.

Regarding this One universal Supreme Truth  the Bani tells us: 

ਨਾਮੁ ਵਿਸਾਰਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਅਨ ਮਾਰਗਿ ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲਿ ਪਛੁਤਾਹੀ ॥੭॥
Naam Visaar Chalehi An Maarag Anth Kaal Pashhuthaahee ||7||
Forgetting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, they walk on other paths, and at the very last moment, they regret and repent.

ਤੀਰਥਿ ਭਰਮੈ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਛੂਟਸਿ ਪੜਿਆ ਬਾਦੁ ਬਿਬਾਦੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
Theerathh Bharamai Rog N Shhoottas Parriaa Baadh Bibaadh Bhaeiaa ||
Wandering around at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, the mortal is not cured of his disease. Reading scripture, he gets involved in useless arguments.

Raag Bhaira-o Guru Nanak Dev  ANG 1153
 

 

3) Christ said: I have come to collect the marked sheep by my Father. My sheep will recgnize my whistle. 

Sree Guru Nanak Dev tells us : 

bin bhaagaa satsang na paa-ee-ai, karam milai har naam haree. 

Without good destiny, the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation, is not obtained.   By the grace of one's good karma, the Lord's Name is received. 

With this their Gurparsad of Guru Jee, we learn how to elevate and extrincate ourselves from the web of karmas, thus only becoming karmaless (whether good or bad ), can we ever merge in our Origin Satnam.

 

4,5,6) The soul can only know its true identity by elevating within and crossing the real of Brahm, after discarding its 3 coverings of physicl, astral and causal  bodies, then the soul shines in its original form, and heads towards its origin Satnam to finally merge and become one with that One supreme and etrenal Truth.

We are all spiritual adepts, whether a sadhoo or a heavy sinner, waheguru has kept the bhandaar of Namm within each and every being in the same measure, it is only neede to turn ourselves towards it, and taste that Amrit within us, in order to become pure paviter and be worthy to merge in Him.

Guru Jee says:  Nanak dukheeya sab sansaar, se sukheeya jin Nam adhaar. With this He means,  anyone who meditates and attaches his/her surtee to Nam within, is the one really happy, otherwise  all are under the laws of good and bad karmas. Good karmas are like golden chains around our necks, fot still we are prisoners in the mayavee creation. Bad karmas make us suffer already.

So Guru Jee, teaches us, how to arise ourselves above karmas and become karmaless, while fulfilling our worldy duties, we are not to run at isolated places nor lock ourselves, but like swans, while being in the pond, they can fly at will. we too while living amidts the world and fullfiling our duties as parents, spouses, workers, etc, should engage in His loving meditation and be at His Lotus Feet, in order to remain detached from worldly entanglements and return back Home desireless. For desires are chains which pull us back into the creation  again and again.

 

7) As said above,  the creator of Karma is Kal Purukh.  I would suggest you to read a magnificent book of Bhagat Kabir Sahib titled Anurag Sagar, you may find it on the net. It claerly deals with the all aspects of Creation, who is Satnam, Shabad, how Kal Purukh came into existence.... but in the end, it is would be better to say, He is the doer, He watches over His khel, but anyhow, we have nothing to do or look for the creator of karmas, but,  look for only and only the Creator, Waheguru Akal Purukh. At our present level, even if were expalined the reasons of the creation, we would never understand, for the architect of all craetion is beyond the reach of mind/intellect, and maya, so better when we reach there we ask Him then, but for sure, for then, nobody would care for all thses answers, for we shall be one with His Hukum.

 

Take care  and stay blessed .

SSA.

 

[Guest Jitsingh Gojra]

Thank you all for your time and input, it has been help. However when ever someone asks questions from this study, you tend to always have more questions to ask than whenn you started out with. Sticking to to the questions I ask in the second post, although progress has been made, I am still looking for answers to them. Your answers have been thorough and you have covered a broad spectrum in this study, perversing with this on this platform I think will only complicate the answers even more and leave with more questions that are not related to initial post. So I will take your advice and look at reading the book by Bhagat Kabir Sahib titled Anurag Sagar and perhaps when the Gurdwara re-open I can have a direct conversation with someone there.

Thanks Again for all your efforts.

Best Regards

Jitsingh Gojra, Wahe Guru.

[Sukh_preet]

It would be good if you pm more learned and experienced members here like sat Veerji or lucky paa ji to get a proper reply. You can also go through question and answer Brahm de Sawaal jawab by Simranjeet Singh Tohana on YouTube. Those are really good. Sat Veerji suggested them to me

You can also take soul sessions/courses on SikhNet. 

Hey all,

you can all try these SikhNet courses- I took one. It's good learning during these lazy and boring days. 

 

[Guest Jitsingh Gojra]

Sukh_preet It would be good if you pm more learned and experienced members here like sat Veerji or lucky paa ji to get a proper reply? what is pm and how do you contact specific members to ask a question?

[Mooorakh]

Hi,

You would have to make an Id to be a member here and then it would give you option of sending personal messages ( pm). That's a good suggestion from Sukh Preet.

All the best!